After 11 years, my wife and I might have reached an impasse?

Discuss these feelings with your wife, and consider getting professional help with that offing myself comment.

This is a very big issue. HUGE. If you don’t start taking an interest in planning for a future, it may be very difficult to keep the relationship together. If she’s like me, it would be impossible. I can’t live without saving and building a cushion against disaster. If my partner can’t save money and if they aren’t really thrifty about money, it would make me crazy.

So this is something to take seriously. These are important issues. Work hard on them.

Does your wife have knowledge about investing and savings? Would she be willing to guide/assist you with those things? Would you be willing to listen to her about them and start a savings for retirement? Perhaps the two of you can find a compromise that would satisfy both of you. I know you said you have no interest in it, but is it no interest in learning the specifics or no interest in actually doing it?

I think it’s hard for many people to actually believe they can do something they love for a living. Some people rather keep those things for their free time and focus their career/jobs on other issues. This is something the two of you will need to discuss and figure out if it is going to be a dealbreaker in your relationship.

If the two of you can’t get through these issues on your own, you may want to consider going to a relationship counselor to help with. Good luck!

It sounds like the two of you could benefit from counseling. I certainly wouldn’t throw away a perfectly good relationship of 11 years because of old childhood wounds.

Do you feel that your wife has a point? Could you consider looking (through individual therapy) at your attitudes toward money and the future?

Could she compromise some as well?

This kind of fundamental difference between a couple is best dealt with by a third party professional.

Take a deep breath and remember why you love her. Then make an effort to work through this with her.

This would be huge for me, as it is for @wundayatta, but I do think there could be a solution. If it were me, my biggest concern would be building savings for a rainy day and for retirement. I would be much less concerned with you having a career, as long as you had a job. That is unless we were independently wealthy, but obviously that is not the case in your scenerio. As long as her career and salary are good, maybe you both could look at your income as the extra to save and use for things like vacations. If you are not to the point where you can live on one salary, it could be a goal. I would think she just wants to be reassured of you both heading in the same direction about money. You might not be saving as much as quickly as she would prefer, but there could be a happy medium.

This is not just about money, this is also about being able to support each other in your goals. I think that is one of the most important things in a relationship, that both people can acheive their personal goals and goals for the relationship. When one person is holding the other back from that, it becomes very difficult. I am not saying you are the one doing this, it would inhibiting her dream, but also if your goal is to spend, and not worry about the future, then she would be holding you back from enjoyment maybe? Because she expects more financial sacrifice.

I have to wonder why you resist saving money and planning a little financially for the future. Money saved will give you freedom and security.

Also, many people I know, once some money is saved, and they feel financially freer, then they stop watching every penny usually. She will probably relax more about money once you both have a plan and have some savings. That is an assumption on my part of course, I can’t know for sure how it will be, or her personality.

From what you’ve written, it sounds to me like you think things are very dire – but is it possible that your wife does not see it as an “impasse”? Maybe she was just feeling particularly down about things today and needed to let you know how she feels. You should have a discussion when you’re both calmer about what you both need from the relationship.

One last thing, she probably feels the stress and burden of being the “breadwinner” assuming she is making more money now. That is a difficult position for many people, traditionally it was men in the past. The breadwinner can feel trapped, and feel they are carrying a lot of responsibilty. Maybe that is weighing on her. You would have to ask her what exactly is bothering her, her feelings and worries, rather than what she thinks you should do.

When I met my wife, I was 7 years into my career with the phone company, and making good money, but I lived in an apartment, and wasn’t saving any money. My wife was living on welfare, and had a 4 year old daughter in tow.
During our marriage, she has never worked, due to her deafness. I have been the sole bread winner. It hasn’t been easy.
Just before we married, my father died, and I moved home to help my Mom get through it. When i married my wife, we lived with my Mom for 1½ years, just to make sure she could make the adjustment.
My wife was now demanding we buy a house. She had owned a house during her first marriage, but it was sold during the divorce. We bought a small house about 20 minutes away from my Mom.
2 years later, we sold that house, and bought a bigger place in Concord, about ½ an hour away. We then had 2 more kids, and needed the room.
23 years later, we had that house paid off, and my wife pushed for another house we could retire to. We bought a big place up north, close to my sisters.
I say this will all humility. I wouldn’t have any of this without my wife pushing me into it.
I was perfectly happy in the apartment. I could easily just live in a mobile home, or a small place. My wife pushed me into the success I now enjoy. We didn’t always agree, as a matter of fact we often were at odds. Fighting over money is common in a marriage.
But don’t think for a moment I resent it, or regret it. We are doing well because my wife forced me into doing what I didn’t want to.
She has been a blessing.

Do you really know that many people that honestly love the work they do for a living? Many people need to work jobs they really don’t enjoy and it isn’t always that easy to find work you love. Don’t beat yourself up @tinyfaery. A job does not define who you are.

I don’t really have any advice, but I feel for you right now and I want to send some positive your way, if I can.

I really don’t know how to think about the future. I never thought I’d make it to the ripe ol’ age of 38. I just don’t see myself ever owning things. I do see a therapist. She says I don’t think about the future because I don’t believe the future will ever happen. I do expect to die early. I suffer from depression, she knows this, and sometimes it’s all I can do to keep my nihilism interesting. How do I live a life for the future when I have no interest in it? How do I help her understand that if she expects a certain kind of retirement she needs to be the one to work for it. I expect nothing.

Funny how you all think she is the one who is in the right.

@tinyfaery The thing is, the future will happen whether you plan for it or not. I understand you feel you will die young, but you probably won’t.

Since you grew up poor, here is a big assumption on my part so correct me, you likely have no practice in thinking about the future, because I assume your parents did not set that example. This may be something you need to learn. I do not mean you must learn it for your own good when I say need, I mean you are not acccustomed to that way of thinking, it is unfamiliar.

Part of what people see as a poor mentality (I know this will sound condescending, but I do not mean it that way at all, because I know being poor is way more complicated than what I am about to say) is spending all the money you have when you get it. People say it is because when someone is very poor they basically live check to check, and so their habit is to spend any money that comes in, and then wait until the next paycheck, and start all over again. Some people stay in this habit even when big money starts coming in, and so they are forever destined to be poor, never amass wealth. People can make $100k a year and have this kind of mentality, and then when something bad happens, they have nothing, because there is no cushion, and they can lose everything they have spent money on in short order.

Oh, and about you expecting nothing, I understand what you mean, and I think you make a valid point. But, if she does all the sacrificing and the planning, you will benefit from it. Maybe it is a fairness issue to her? Again, I think she needs to articulate to you her honest feelings about the issue, her insecurities. Maybe when you hear her fears surrounding money issues, you will want to help her acheive what she wants. Right now, maybe it feels to you like she is trying to control you?

I sense that there’s some other issue rumbling around beneath this. Money and the future are big issues, true, and they can part many couples. But thinking back over some other things you’re written and how you expressed the problem here, I just have this intuitive feeling that the real issue has yet to emerge.

I certainly think there are two C words that will help here. Counselling and compromise.

Yes get some counselling. If you still love each other then getting some help to find some middle ground can only valuable. Even if you do end up breaking up. At least you can hopefully avoid some bitterness.

I agree with @Seaofclouds though about compromise. Not everyone is skilled or interested in finance and investing. If I remember right, you do work. So, perhaps one of the things your wife can be responsible for is planning and managing both your future finances. It would mean you agree to pay so much into a pool each week but if investing isn’t your thing, let her manage that part of your relationship. You can pick up the slack elsewhere and manage some other area that you are stronger in.

I certainly don’t think it needs to be a complete deal breaker. If @Jeruba isn’t right and there is no other underlying issue, it sounds like you both need to spend some time redefining your roles within the relationship. I think that’s an important thing to do in any relationship periodically.

I hope things work out how you want them to work out.

I see a couple of distinct issues. The first is about money—that is, your respective beliefs about money. The impasse reminds me of a wonderful friend of mine who also grew up poor and near homeless at times. One thing she took away from the experience is the direct knowledge that poverty is survivable. That it’s not such a big deal that it’s worth fearing. She’s also talked about how that’s exactly what the experience of being middle class is—the fear of slipping into poverty. Perhaps your wife is driven by this fear. In any case, it’s clear that your unwillingness to submit to her beliefs about money is causing her anxiety.

The way I see it, your simply being poor has little to do with your prognosis about life. Plenty of people who grow up poor also grow up hungry for a better life. They aspire towards a home and a career. Granted, many do not, but my point is that it’s not inevitable. It’s a belief that’s specific to you and can be drawn independent of your upbringing.

Your beliefs about yourself and life, however—the ones that kill your faith in anything that smacks of pleasure or fulfillment are another matter. That makes you hard to live with, especially for someone who is naturally inclined to believe in an attainable possibility of happiness. That’s probably the bigger problem, and knowing you from past lives, I can say you are really damn persistent in this kind of belief. I can relate, because I’ve lived with those kinds of beliefs all through adulthood.

Here’s a question for you. Why haven’t you done it already? If it’s such a persistent belief, and so important that it keeps your constant attention, then why haven’t you acted on it? What’s stopping you?

My answer was to realize that something else must be driving the bus, and to question whether it’s worth so much effort thinking about if I haven’t done anything about it in 18 years (my 18 adult years). I still think about it. I still get sucked in by the siren song of jumping off this fucking stupid planet, but there’s also a part of me now that knows enough to discount that belief, because as compelling as it can be, it’s ultimately impotent. When that “wiser” perspective comes to the fore, I can put my nihilism on a shelf. It (the nihilism) still does its thing. It still works, but it’s a less important belief, because I know already what it does (and doesn’t do).

My gf recently told me, “Love is a good thing, but love also complicates things.” Your wife could find any number of people who want a retirement and all that business. That is ridiculously common. Yet she loves someone who threatens to disappear near daily. Why is that? Why do you who feels compelled to drown yourself in misery and suffering love someone with ambition and aspirations and “petty” fears? Why do you love anyone for that matter? Why aren’t you living alone if your beliefs are so important? I’m not asking these questions to be a jerk. I really mean “why?” What is the invisible thing that is driving you to have a relationship with this person, when everything you purport to believe is to the contrary? Do you see what I’m saying? What’s the invisible thing, and why is it driving your behavior sometimes/mostly instead of your beliefs?

I’m having a hard time wrapping this up. I just hope you make room to think about this problem and your own persistent beliefs in other ways—experimental ways that you haven’t allowed room to breathe.

You apparently have a fatalist attitude and IMO you are using that as an excuse to not put on your big girl pants to take responsibility for your life after 38 years. Plus you have been with your wife for 11 years and none of what she is trying to impress upon you can be new to your ears. I have to imagine you two have had dreams of a life beyond the day you are living and perhaps it is time you map out some these things you two have talked about. I can only suggest setting goals for the things you and your S/O have aspired to have and most importantly is to start with small achievable goals with a reasonable time table to make them happen.

I wanted to say that I am sure this is very stressful and upsetting for you. Marital discord is extremely difficult. I am sorry you are going through this. :(

Twelve years ago, did you think you would now be in a decade-long relationship with a woman you love? Probably not, yet here you are.

Point is, you do have a future – the quality of which can be greatly influenced by you at least acknowledging that it’s coming.

All too many people wait until things have reached the point where too many hurtful things have been said before being willing to see a counselor. DO IT NOW!

I’m sorry, but a counselor is not needed if you can be honest with your partner. I’ve been through the worst with my husband and being honest with each other saved our relationship. No counselor needed.

Depression may play a big role in this, too. You know what depression does to a person? It makes you feel worthless and pointless and as @serenade suggests, it gets you close to the point where that makes you want to take action to end the pain of those feelings. It doesn’t seem like they will end any other way.

Depression can be very seductive. When you know it well, it is a comfort because it is so predictable. You know exactly what it is going to do to you. You know what the fight is all about. And there’s always the drama that you don’t know, for sure, who is going to win. I think a lot of us tend to think depression is going to win.

As @serenade suggested, if you think depression is going to win, that means you think you’re going to end up killing yourself. And if you’re going to kill yourself—die soon—then of course, what is the point of saving for the future?

If it’s depression that is responsible for this, then your roots in poverty are something of a sign post turned the wrong way. Certainly your roots have led to depression and your feelings about yourself. But if underneath it all, you feel like it’s only a matter of time until you die by your own hand, then all this therapizing about poverty and the other stuff is really a way of avoiding something else—that maybe you haven’t coped with depression as well as you thought you had.

Depression is very tricky and seductive and it is as complex an enemy as we can have, I believe. It seems like such a horrible thing, so why would anyone keep it near by if they had the power to get rid of it?

First of all, it’s hard to know whether we do have the power to get rid of it. Certainly many of us have fought it off time and again. Some of us have found relatively stable places to do this from. Some of us think we have the tools to turn it away no matter what it does.

I have my doubts about our abilities to keep it away. Not only is it powerful and it can hit quickly and with great force, but it also can sneak up on us and suck the ground away beneath our feet until suddenly we find ourselves sucked into the quicksand up to our nostrils before we even noticed we were going down. Frontal attack and sneak attacks aren’t the end of the arsenal, either. It’s also got the siren call thing down cold. Depression is like home for many of us. And is gives us a lot of what we want.

That is very hard to admit, I think. Why would anyone want to be depressed? You’d have to be crazy to want that! Well, don’t forget, it is a mental illness. Our brains work differently. We are susceptible to getting our existential yayas from depression. It perversely makes us feel alive at same times as it makes us feel so permanently miserable the only thing that can end it is ending life.

It makes us feel alive by bringing us to the brink of death. We become acutely aware that each breath we take carries a choice. We could die. We could die. We could die. It is a highly melodramatic moment and most outsiders will think we bring it on ourselves and therefore it is a form of manipulation.

I don’t agree. We do bring it on, but we don’t bring it on. Brain chemistry opens the door and we fight and fight but at a certain time, the seduction of death is so powerful.

Still, we don’t give in. Because the desire to live and to see what happens next is more powerful in almost all cases.

If this is going on inside you, then your work with depression has hidden itself. You’re fighting self image or poverty or something and underneath that, it’s really depression that is pulling the strings. You may honestly believe, deep inside, that you will kill yourself soon, and since that’s the case, there’s no point in planning for the future.

If that’s the case, then thinking about it will probably change things. If you know you really won’t kill yourself, then you can realize this is a fantasy you have of playing with the idea of suicide so much. It’s an entertainment of sorts. It comforts you in your down moments. But it’s not useful.

And since it’s not useful, you can indulge yourself, but you can also set the notion of suicide aside to get about the business of life. And planning to save the money you’re going to need to take care of you when you retire.

I think @wundayatta makes a great point. Depression might be your comfort zone. Maybe you don’t really want to feel better. I have felt like that. There have been times in my life I wanted to be miserable.

A sign of depression is feeling hopeless and helpless about the future. Maybe we could turn it on its head, and say if you start planning for the future, you will begin to feel less helpless and hopeless and more in control. It’s a chicken and egg thing. Money might be very symbolic. Having money gives a person more control over their lives. In our society money is a really big deal. People who say money does not matter, I just think that is total bullshit.

Did you grow up with people around you saying people with money are bad, lack integrity, hurt others, and whatever crap I have heard before? Those messages might hold you back if you were surrounded by them.

@tinyfaery : I have no words of wisdom. I only have hugs for you. What you are going through must hurt a great deal. I wish you peace.

@tinyfaery Any chance you want to push her away? Do you want to possibly leave the relationship, and hoping if she is miserable enough she will be the one to do the leaving? I have a friend who does that.

I too vote for couple’s counseling. But I am sort of with you. I have made and lost and remade fortunes in my lifetime. I never did worry too much. If I blew it, I always figured I could make more and I did. It becomes more of an issue as you get older though, I do believe that.

I think you said a true statement when you said if your wife wants this security then she should work for it. I don’t recall you ever saying whether she is a full time home body or she does work too. If it is a deal breaker for her, then you have to compromise. Let her be the worker and you work too but not with the same goal, just don’t blow all your earnings, contribute a fair share towards the retirement fund (and then blow the rest!).

Good luck, no one ever said life was going to be easy, but like it was said above, don’t give up on 11 years because of one issue, work on compromise, it’s always there somewhere, you just have to hunt for it.

Remeber the Oscar Wilde line, “when you are wrong, promptly admit it, when you are right, shut up!” I find that to be an excellent way to have a relationship!

I think when couples fight, there’s a raw emotion right afterward that may cause you to feel like this is an impasse, this is drastic, this is a deal breaker. That does not mean it’s so, and it does not mean your mate feels the same way.

You said you feel like you’re amazed you’re around now, and you don’t plan for the future because of your feelings about the future. You are with a good person for you, then, in my opinion, because her planning and financial goals can benefit the two of you.

With your depression, there may be some self esteem issues, which may be causing you to subconsciously sabotage the relationship. Perhaps this is something you can explore in therapy if you don’t already.

The good thing is, what your wife is seeking is beneficial to the both of you, it’s not like she is being selfish or malicious (in other words, the relationship issues are over something positive, not something terrible). Like others have said, arguing over money is very common in relationships.

I feel for you and hope you can work this out.

My wife and I have a similar imbalance. She has her eye firmly fixed on the distant horizon; today is just life’s staging area in which one prepares to confront tomorrow’s menaces. Money plays a big role in her scheme of things, not for what it can buy (she’s frugal to the extreme), but for the security it offers.

I do get that, but not in the visceral way that she feels it. To me, the future and money remain abstractions that have little to do with the real stuff of life. When I try—mostly for her sake—to consider the future, or think financially, I feel like I’ve unplugged from the living reality and am groping through some airless bardo.

Yet, we make this work. One thing that helps is my willingness to live frugally. If I were out there spending our money in a “live like there’s no tomorrow” fashion, she would (rightly) freak out. I’m very conscious of her sensitivities to cash outflow, and besides, I’m not really inclined to spend much anyway. I also give her free rein to make financial decisions and plan for the future; I’ll strain to give some kind of token input when pressed, mostly to demonstrate that I recognize the value of her way of thinking. But she and I both recognize that my attempts are pretty pathetic, and probably better ignored.

I honestly value her way of thinking. It has served our family very well. And I believe that she values my mindset, too; I’m kind of her connection to the present. We’ve just had to come to a mutual respect for each others’ mindset, and learn the boundaries of our respective comfort zones.

My answer is short.

In todays world, you cannot live without planning for tomorrow.

It’s time for YOU to change your way of thinking, if you want to stay married.

Your wife is SMART, so do your PART !!!

@tinyfaery It is not that we think your wife is right. There is no right or wrong here. It is that in marriage you have to work together. You have to work to make your partner happy.

Just as you never thought you’d get to age 38, one day you will be at retirement age. Not a place you want to be without some pre-planning.

1. Thanks to all of you who recognize my depression in this issue. I’m not a wallower. This is the life I have chosen. I have found that my way of living keeps me sane.

2. Fuck you to those of you who have no capability of understanding that what I have is a mental illness that I have coped with for most of my life. Depression isn’t a choice.

3.@Jeruba What do you think the underlying problem might be?

4.@serenade Do I know you?

not sure if I am getting a thanks or a fuck you.

@filmfann Me either.

That says more about you than me.

@tinyfaery We both said things that empathasize with you, and that also suggest considering you rethink your position on money. How are we to know which part you are dwelling on? Or, whether you want to consider changing? Or, if you were just looking for people to say it is your wife’s responsibility to take care of her own worries, and not to try and change you? I don’t know if you wanted a specific answer, or were just looking for support, or were open to all ideas. It seems to me you are just fine with how you view money from what you wrote, so maybe any suggesstions otherwise pissed you off? I have no idea. Not that you have to answer with specifics to what advice you found helpful and what advice you didn’t, it’s your prerogative of course.

@tinyfaery: I’m not sure if I’m in the “fuck you” category or not, but I don’t understand why you have such an angry response, when in your Q you asked “Tell me your thoughts.” People responded by telling you their thoughts, and you don’t like what you heard? Did you think everyone would tell you something that you wanted to hear, in the way you like to hear it? You got a whole lot of different opinions. I don’t think anybody was attacking you.

@tinyfaery, I’d be making guesses, and that’s not the right way to get to the heart of this. Unless you two want to give up and walk (or storm) away, it’s going to take a little work in any case.

But I can offer you a few possibilities that I (as an untrained layperson, of course) think could show up in the way that you’re talking about.
• She’s insecure and is testing you. What will you do to keep her?
• She’s resentful that the relationship is unbalanced: she carries the extra load and you get a free ride.
• She’s scared about the long term and afraid you’re not committed enough to the relationship. Will she be dumped when she’s too old and unattractive to find another partner?
• She wants out and is creating or magnifying an issue to justify it.
• You want out and are creating or magnifying an issue to justify it.

Please don’t trouble to argue or defend. I’m not accusing or laying any of these things on you. I’m just saying that these are examples of underlying issues that could show up as a fight about money and planning for the future, which may be a hot issue but is also much less dangerous territory, less close to the bone than some of these others.

I could go a little further, but not uninvited. I don’t want to poke at a sore or tender spot or push a button. What I hope is that if you hear a faint ring of truth in these suggestions, or start to think of others, you’ll find something worth exploring and, we hope, resolving, probably with the aid of a counselor.

Maybe I don’t have to add this point, you may already know this, but I do know there are counselors who are sympathetic to, who may even specialize in, various “alternative” lifestyles and relationships and don’t think the cure for everybody is to eliminate their kinks and push them into a straight, conventional mold. One of my best friends is such a counselor.

And if it really and truly is about nothing but money, maybe what you need is a financial advisor to help you both look at the picture realistically.

Ooh, I said things that offended and angered some. BIG shocker. Get over it and consider yourself having said your peace; I have said mine.

@tinyfaery So I guess you are not going to reveal more about the relationship, or how some of the ideas hit above might have hit home or be helpful. Hope some of the answers help you.

@tinyfaery I think most of the people in the thread have taken into consideration your background and your depression, and the ones who didn’t don’t mean you any harm. They just don’t understand depression, and what a bitch it can be to deal with.

There are a couple of things you and your wife can do that might help this situation. First and foremost, try to see this as a problem with a solution, one you will both work on finding.

It might be good for her to attend a couple of your therapy sessions, in order to better understand how you feel, and of course, couples counseling can help a lot, too. (Even in totally honest relationships.) I know you’ve been in therapy, but I don’t remember if you take meds for your depression? If you don’t, it may be time to reconsider that. I know how much depression impacts a life, and it’s fucking hard to overcome it. It’s so worth it, though, if you can get there, girlie.

Do you mingle your money in a joint account? If so, maybe separate accounts will help. Some people have separate checking accounts, and contribute a proportional amount to a joint savings account. Would she be happy with a token contribution, say $10 or $20 a month? Maybe a certain amount of mad money (X amount of money you can spend every week or month, however you see fit) would make you happy, with the rest being used for ‘serious business’.

As you’ve said, you’re unlikely to make a living doing something you love. Since that’s the case, perhaps you can just resign yourself to that, and decide to make the most money you possibly can doing something you don’t love, keeping the things you love for hobbies or volunteer activities in order to keep life worth living.

Think about a way you could earn money on the side, together. Some kind of small business, walking dogs, holding yard sales, or selling crap on e-bay. A joint venture helps in the teamwork department, and can also be sort of fun.

”......from offing yourself?” Wow, you need some kind of help I think. No one should say something like that with such a casual air, in my opinion. It just sounds like your wife wants you to have some, or more, ambition and drive. I’m wondering if you smoke pot, do you? Many people who smoke pot have a spouse wanting the same thing.

@PurpleClouds You sound like someone who has never experienced depression. It is pretty common to talk about suicide rather casually if you’ve been depressed. In my experience, most of us think about it pretty regularly, even when healthy. Usually, it’s something we only talk about so casually amongst ourselves since it does tend to freak out normal people. But I find it to be rather therapeutic to be able to acknowledge the thoughts.

Suicide thoughts are constantly there. They get worse when I try to hide them. When I let them out, they lose their power. But I won’t be letting them out when people tell me they are freaked out by it and I should go see a fucking therapist because you get all uncomfortable when someone says something about suicide so casually. And then leap to the conclusion that pot is probably involved. That is so ignorant and insensitive, it is unbelievable.

Therapists are great, and I’ve seen them and they helped a lot, thank you very much. Now trust me, I’m a good judge of when I need to see one and when I don’t. Frankly, I think @tinyfaery knows just as much or more about therapy and is a perfectly good judge of when she needs to see one.