Do you think men would naturally want or try to control women?

Rulez, schmulz!

I believe that the rules we articulate in society are attempts to codify the behavior we naturally exhibit. That is, as a general rule, these behaviors are innate. Men act protectively of women. Probably as a way of getting women to agree to mate with them. All the rules that we make up? Just attempts to codify what we do, anyway.

Now, remember, these behavioral trends are averages. There is a lot of variation and there are men who attack women instead of protecting them. There are women who need no protection and on and on. But on average, all the stuff we find in our sacred texts are attempts to codify the way we behave anyway—in broad and general terms.

There is a lot in there but I will give it a shot.

Most men I know, naturally, do not try and dominate. They attempt to show value to the group. It is occasionally competitive, but not destructive. Most men I know prefer everybody getting along. We hunt in groups, or did. We like everybody knowing their place.

I hear people talking about the ultra competitive alpha men, and I think people are misreading this. Alpha men do not jockey for position, they are already deferred to. Men who are unsure of their own status jockey and compete and control or mistreat women, as they overcompensate and act out to prove they are valuable in ways they imagine an alpha male would act. They resent women for not finding them attractive, and try to control them.

This behavior would happen even if we had perfect gender equality. And there are women who serially seek these men out, due to low self esteem.

No

Some men do & some men don’t…... it depends upon the mind-set of the man.

I think the “seed” for male dominance came from the cave man. It was planted in our DNA years ago and still is a dominant factor today.

Most men have learned to overcome the controlling factor, but many have not.

And, the sad part of it all, is that it may never go away.

It’s so hard to say, because even primitive cultures have/had their own rules, you know? It’s fascinating to think about, though.

I think there are men who like to dominate and those who let the women have the upper hand. I
know a group of men who meet for breakfast periodically and what they have in common is that they have strong wives who run the roost. The men are happy with that. It’s takes all kinds.

Not a real man.. And it’s true, “Never hit a woman or a child”.

I found @Imadethisupwithnoforethought ‘s answer extremely insightful.

I think the first generation would experience a lot of raping. Then, as adolescent boys grew into men with long-term female partners and children (especially daughters they wanted to protect), the rules would start. Raping and pillaging like wild animals is all well and good in our primitive brains, but looking after your offspring is likely a much stronger biological compulsion.

No more than women naturally want or try to control men. And no more than they both try to control anything in their lives that makes a difference.
Men and women may have some differences in style or perceived outcome but both genders control each other, or try to, naturally.

Answers sort of all over the map. Interesting.

@chewhorse I like “never hit” better.

@Imadethisupwithnoforethought what you wrote about alpha male I have to really think about. I’m thinking alpha male can occur in different realms: very strong physically, born leader, very smart, good at school, rises to the top at work. Or, is alpha male always about physical stregnth? I guess maybe it has to do with the males surroundings and what the community values? How well do they compare with the expectations put on them.

Men like to appear to be in charge and most women are happy with that as long as they get their own way when it counts.

@flutherother How true…men like to appear to be in charge…but why is that? It’s actually very closely related to @JLeslie‘s answer.

@JLeslie, In any group of adult men,1 or 2 together will likely be setting the agenda for the group. Quietly, with little fuss. As you say, the leadership role may shift depending on the domain. Everyone else looks to them for direction, in fact, eager to go along with what they say. Men only get competitive when the boss or coworker is clearly incompetent.

I realize it may not look that way to women, as we all stop what we are doing and jockey to impress you when you people come around.

@Imadethisupwithnoforethought I realize it may not look that way to women, as we all stop what we are doing and jockey to impress you when you people come around.

That sentence makes me think…secret lives of men. Do you think men learn this mostly from their fathers, or peers, or innate?

I just thought of an example that may be helpful.

Obama and Boehner working on the debt bargain. When they were working directly, they made progress. Obama is in charge of the Democrats, confidant in his role. Boehner in charge of the Republicans, confidant in his role. They work together, even thought they know they will both take a lot of heat for it, as it is in the best interests of everyone. Men act for the good of the tribe if they are feeling secure.

The person who scuttled it was Cantor. Because he suspects he should be in charge, not Boehner. He got all competitive and temper tantrum throwing because he was unsure of his role. It made him want to stop cooperating and derail the whole thing. Biden thinks Obama is a good leader, and went along with whatever Obama said.

To answer your question, I think, in any mixed sex environment, women have the final say over which man will eventually be giving orders. Men cue off females showing approval. And it is innate. Don’t the cheerleaders decide which boys are cool in high school?

I believe we are mostly taught how to be, also I believe it is innate due to hormones. I saw a program on a transgender, female to male and she testified to how she behaved differently and felt differently due to the change in hormones. I personally wonder about the equal part as I have never seen it work. Women have taken over so much, breadwinners, housekeepers and men are shrinking into oblivion. I probably didn’t word that correctly but I preferred it when males were alpha males. I guess I’m old fashioned. I prefer the idea that we are both important yet different. As I feel we are different and it is that fact that makes us attractive to each other. But seemingly a simple question it has so many different facets to it.

No, of course not.

No, but a great qestion.

“Men like to appear to be in charge” aw c’mon.This is such a cliche. There are plenty of women who like to appear to be in charge fer chrissake. Everyone likes to appear competent and if you’re responsible for something you want to be, and look like you’re, on top of it. No gender has any monopoly on that.

When the guys do it, the politically correct cliché seems to be “alpha male / what an asshole” when the gals do it, it’s popular to say/think “You go girl! ”
The reptilian, politically incorrect clichés seem to be “What a leader! What a man!” / “What a bitch!”
None of those generalizations is fair or intelligent as a reaction. Good leaders all show the same characteristics: thoughtful consideration, good clear communication, smart decisions. If the person taking charge is getting the job done I’m all for it, who cares what gender.

It has been said that very few adult female aboriginal have a full set of teeth, usually because the front ones have been knocked out by males. I don’t know if this is a recent development, recent being since the introduction of the white fellas’ grog or if it has always been that way. The women also traditionally walk several feet behind the men, that has always been that way. Maybe that was to scare off the predators but then again there are no predators in Australia other than dingos and they scare off pretty easily. The women go into the croc infested waters to hunt file snakes and water lilies, but the men do send the dogs in first so if there are crocs about they eat the dogs instead of the women.

The greatest contributors to men losing control and dominance over women has been the invention of the tampon and birth control. It has been all downhill for the boys since then and probably will continue. Women are excelling at everything these days, that’s why it is now being discussed the approach to male education needs to be changed. There was no need for this while the males were in the ascendency but now that the females are clawing their way up the ladder, something needs to be done!!!

Yeah, the males are on the dungheap of history now. Women don’t need ‘em, except for sperm, I guess. Maybe we can do a Hunger Games thing for that. Pit the guys against each other, and the ones that survive get to populate the next generation. Not with actual intercourse, of course. Just as sperm donors.

For intercourse there will be eunuchs. And if the eunuch gets an std, got help them. They’ll be put to death, most likely. And the women won’t care about the eunuch’s pleasure, and the eunuch better not care about it either—not while he’s with a woman, anyway. Yep. Wave of the future.

Future? Naw. It’s already here.

Well, in my experience @wundayatta,and for many, many other woment, men don’t seem to be good for much else. They leave, say good bye, get out of paying child support and don’t look back.

I thought eunuch’s were castrated, is it possible for a male to have intercourse when castrated?

That’s a sad tale @wundayatta and if it is true, I guess what goes around comes around!

Castration means cutting off your balls. You can still get an erection. The plumbing and chemistry involved with erections is not totally inhibited by the loss of the testicles.

It’s funny, @Dutchess_III. I was just down in Florida, in the Keys. There seem to be a whole society of single men of a certain age who I will call the “captains.” They all live on boats moored on the canals. They are all single, fat, with long hair, often pulled back in a pony tail. They are tanned and they drink a lot and hang out and make barbecue. It’s not clear to me that they do much else, but you can’t see what they do on the boats.

I had to wonder whether they have any intimate relationships in their lives. If not, do they miss it, or are they as adamant about not needing the hassle of women as divorced women seem to be about men? If they do want sex… well, in Florida, I guess that’s pretty easy to buy. Florida is the party state, after all.

Single older women… I wonder. Do they want sex enough to do something about it? I imagine a lot don’t find they need it any more. But those who do—is it still easy enough to just kind of show up near a man, let him know you’re interested and get what you want? I remember a question here recently about women buying… or rather, not buying sex. But surely women might want the same kind of NSA thing that men in this situation seem to want? Or could it be that despite all the brave words about the uselessness of people for intimate relationships, people still do sort of hope they might actually get to have another one? Intimate relationship, that is?

I think that many younger males are brought up with the mindset that they need to project the image of being a ‘man’ in front of others. In fact it is perpetually reenforced into the minds of males of all ages via the internet, dating advice, magazines, tv, movies, our enviroment, etc that being a ‘man’ means to be the hunter, the aggressor, the initiator, the leader, etc. The answer here is an easy one, and it all comes down to social gender role construction.

I think the urge to dominate comes from men wanting sexual exclusivity with the woman. Those men who need to dominate would love to have the double standard and have “ownership” of the woman whilst playing the field themselves.

Historically when woman have asserted their desire to be treated as equals it has resulted in insecure men becoming threatened and sometimes resorting to physical force and intimidation to “keep women in their place.”

I like to think that we are moving beyond those rigid sex roles now as men and women both strive to create relationships as equals. Of course there are always those people who hold to the status quo. I don’t think it’s innate, I think it’s, in large part, culturally and societally learned. I think it’s important that parents raise their children to encourage mutual respect for the opposite gender. I hate it as much when women engage in male bashing as when men use put downs for women and demeaning talk.

I think Paradox 25 has a good point with the mention of gender role construction. There is a fascinating book called The Mermaid and the Minotaur:Sexual arrangements and Human Malaise It was published in 1976 so I’m sure many would think we have moved way beyond this but I feel like Dorothy Dinnerstein’s central argument that “the female monopoly of early child care is by no means the biological given we assume it is. Rather it stems from historical necessities which have now become obsolete” and that it is this monopoly that causes acting out for male dominance and female complicity in male dominance because of the residue of “the fact that our violent infant ambivalence-,prototype for the human ambivalence toward life itself—is always directed toward a woman.

It may sound like feminist radical ranting but the book is filled with a lyrical, almost poetic eloquence as Dinnerstein struggles to imagine how we can change the world and the war between the sexes by changing how we raise our children. It’s dense and hard to read but impossible to grasp in a sound bite.

Alpha males will always seek out someone to rule over.. I call it bullying and I become enraged over that demeanor.. Call me a bully’s bully.