What do you think about the Memphis city school situation?

I am not surprised, Schools in the south are notoriously poor. I lived in an affluent section of southern Virginia and even they’re schools weren’t that great.

This is the same old civil rights and racial thing that has been going on in the south since slavery was abolished. The only good education you get in the south is in private school. This is also the reason southern states are “right to work (for less)” and conservative. They’re still fighting the civil war and trying to re institute the plantation system. Let’s put the poor people where they belong; on the plantation.

@Ron_C I think some parents are just worried about how their child who is in school right now will be affected. Not necessarily about race and poverty, but just simply they don’t want the school their child goes to to be negatively impacted by the change. They might be completely fine with education being better for the poor, no have some sort of sinister goal to keep the poor down and oppressed. Honestly, what I usually hear, which I admit is hard for me to listen to, is the people out in the burbs don’t believe most of the people in the city can be helped. That they would or do ignore, screw up, or not take advantage of opportunities given to them regarding education. The people who already have their children in private school, well, it doesn’t realy affect them. I agree the south is incredibly divided, the amount of people I know who send their children to private schools is startling to me. I have never known so many anywhere else I have lived.

@JLeslie Like I said, I lived in the south on the border of Virginia and North Carolina. Plus we had an office in Georgia. Al of us with children had problems with the public school systems. My friends put their kids in private schools, I moved to Pennsylvania.

The quality of a public school education in our small town is tremendous. My kids learned German in 6th grade, got advanced science and math courses and had no trouble in college. In fact, almost half of their classes went to college and another large percentage went to local trade schools. I don’t know why that kind of education isn’t available nationwide.

@JLeslie, why did Memphis officials decide to consolidate with the county schools and not operate their own schools? Do you know the background on that?

@Ron_C I have the same experience actually. The initial exodus back during desegregation of white students to private schools created a sutuation that has been difficult to fix. Some school districts are good in the south of course (and for that matter there are bad ones up north and other parts of the country) but there is an overwhelming lack of interest in the public schools system here in general. Definitely people feel it is unfixable, rather than looking to systems around the country that work well. I think aside from race issues, there is also such a strong pull towards religious education here, that many of the citizens don’t feel public education has anything to do with themselves. However, I do know many many people who are thrilled to live near good public schools here when they do. It’s weird. I can’t quite put my finger on how they really think deep down. There seems to be quite a bit of hypocrisy. Not sure really, I am sort of an outsider.

@bkcunningham From what I could gather, Memphis felt their schools were not doing as well because of the people at the top, not the children, so I guess they reasoned if they were in with the county, the county would take responsibility for improving the schools. Now the county’s reputation and their responsibility will be for all the children in the county, before they had no responsibility for Memphis (which is in the county). I guess Memphians assume if the schools in Memphis were run the same as the county, the education and scores would move up to the level of the county.

Personally, I am disgusted the county wants to shirk their responsibility for Memphis students. But, Memphians are going to have to let the county run it then, give it a good try. I would never say we should not let Memphians vote for the school board, but maybe they should defer to the people who have been getting it right. The tricky part is, there needs to be a genuine effort by the board members to give Memphis the same attention as the rest of the county. There would need to be a lot of trust, and honest effort, which I fear is very lacking.

@bkcunningham Also, one of the biggest problems in the Memphis schools is gangs, crime, safety in general, and their drop out rate is extremely high. It’s not as simple as the classes offered or the specific academics offered. Out where I live, out towards the end of the county, our students are not offered foreign language until high school. I think that is horrible. I am pretty sure Memphis schools have it available before high school. At least some of the schools in that system do.

There has been a headline report about the difference between conservative and progressive thinking. The result was that conservatives think fast and don’t really consider an issue. The also tend to go by their feelings, not facts. Progressives think slower and ponder problems and tend to come to a more logical conclusion.

I’ve said that for years. It seems that the southern school systems are victims of conservative thinking. I suspect the good school districts, in the south have a preponderance of university educated progressives over people that have lived their entire lives “down south”.

@Ron_C After I had lived here a few years, before this whole Memphis giving up their school charter, when discussing public education I said, all teachers here should have to teach for three years in a good school system up north so they can see the difference. A friend of mine born and raised in MS, taught high school in MS outside of Memphis, and then moved eventually to a suburb of St. Louis, MO and taught there. She said the difference in education and students were incredible. Both communities were middle class white communities. Students were more inquistive, although interestingly at first she perceived them as being rude and lacking respect. She said it did not take her long to figure out that not using Ma’am and not tucking in their shirts was not because they were disrespectful. She said the students were much more focused on learning than her students in MS. The curriculuum and electives were better in St. Louis too in her opinion.

Yikes! I would only teach at private schools in Memphis. I dont do guns, just spoiled rich kids.

But I believe in equality. Louisville went through this in the 70’s, but they are still county schools. We had bussing. and it worked to some degree. However, Memphis is larger and those kids would be on the bus all night.

This type of problem is always difficult. People choose where to live based in large part, on how good thew schools are. Better schools provide better opportunity for thier kids. A parent may be more than willing to sacrifice a little for the betterment of the community but if you ask them to sacrifice their child’s opportunity, that’s a completely different matter. Most people I know work to provide their kids the best opportunity they can. If you try to take away that opportunity, you’re in for a fight. Many will try to turn this into a simple racial argument but it’s much bigger than that. It’s not the color of the school, it’s the quality. At least for most of us.

@Jaxk Thing is, they are not going to have a huge redistricting because of it I don’t think. The black kids in the “black” neighborhoods will still be going to their neighborhood “black” schools. The white kids out in the burbs will still be going to their predominantly white schools. The white kids in the burbs going to private will still be going to their practically lily white private schools. I guess kids will have an option to go to a different district if they offer something special at a particular school, I don’t know how easily kids can do that in my county, but any child wanting to do that is probably a good student. They are going to have to get themselves to the out of district school themselves, and I assume that child is more likely to be committed to their education.

@JLeslie

Your choice of the term “lily white’ speaks volumes. The fact that the inner city schools are all unionized also speaks volumes. Your attitude that nothing will change and therefore this is all a result of racism, may be a bit shortsighted. But if you all want to plow forward with the idea that it is all the result of a bunch of lily white racists, it would seem your mind is made up. I will restrain myself from trying to suggest any other possible conclusions to what is obviously a black and white issue.

@jaxk Just the opposite. I keep saying it isn’t really about race, read my answers. I try to argue in defense of both views. I can understand why Memphis is frustrated. I can understand why the suburbs are afraid of the change. I only use lily white to emphasize the schools are divided racially, but I think the biggest division is poverty and apathy.

My point was if the kids will be going to the same schools I think the suburban negative reaction is paranoid, and for some racist, but for most just paranoid. They talk about busing, and I don’t think anyone is going to be bussed anywhere.

Also, lily white was recently used on another Q, so it was in my head,

Here is the other Q if you are curious. I state on there how I genuinely feel, that I miss diversity when I am not around it. I am not in favor of segregation, and I am in favor of having equal education available to all Americans. I think people who only care about their own childrens education are narrow in understanding that an uneducated population harms all of us. But, I can empathasize with a parent being concerned with the current education for their child. The kid is in school now, no do over.

@JLeslie

I may be overreacting but the use of “lily white” is intended to provoke an emotional response. Don’t be surprised when it does. The combination of these school districts is intended to create a change. Whether the change will result in inner city schools coming up to the level of the suburban schools or whether the change will result in the suburban schools coming down to the level of the inner city is cause for concern. Both outcomes are equally possible. You can play your social experiments with me, but don’t play with the opportunity I have tried to give my kids.

Your over simplifying the reaction. It sounds like you’re saying that if I want the best education possible for my kids, I must not care about others. I don’t believe that is the case. You can want a better education for all and still want the best for your own kids as well. I suspect we have considerably different opinions on how to improve the education system nationwide. Because I don’t buy into your concept of how to make it better doesn’t mean I’m a racist. Because I choose to send my kid to a private school doesn’t mean I’m a racist.

The quality of schools in the inner cities are the result of thier environment, not the cause of it. And diversity is not the answer to everything.

@Jaxk Ok, Lily white is not an expression I use generally, so dumping it under your advice is no problem. I appreciate the feedback.

I agree people can want the best for their children, and the best for everyone’s children all at once. I also agree people who put their kids in private school are not necessarily racist. In fact I believe a very very small percent of Americans are racist, including those who out their kids in private school. I have nothing against people who want to give their children a better education and nothing against those who want to give their children a religious education. But, I do have a lot of people around me bitching about paying for the education of others and wanting voucher money, and people around me who think the public system is a total waste of time. Regarding th voucher, it really for many is about them wanting their money for their kid, and not about creating competition, or opportunity for students, or improving public schools. I realize some people do believe in vouchers for market reasons, but a whole bunch of people are not in that mindset, it is more about being antitax and paying for others who don’t contribute to the system.

Mostly, I think people worry about the level of education being brought down overall, just as you mentioned as a possibility, and crime, gangs, and bad behavior moving out to the burbs more than it has already. Some of my friends who have their kids in public schools do complain that most of the trouble is started by the black kids in school. I have no idea if that is statistically true, that is there perception, and what they say to me. It is racial to many people around here from their experience and how they digest the information, but I am not saying those people are racist.

My high school was 40% minorities, I never felt any racial or ethnic tension. I grew up outside of DC in MD.

I believe home schooling or small neighborhood schools are the answer to this.

@JLeslie

I think a lot of people have lost faith in the public school system. They feel powerless to fix it and vouchers seem like an alternative that gives them a chance. Federal involvement over the last couple of decades have limited the school districts in what they can and can’t do. As a parent there is little you can do to influence the growing federal power.

I only hope that whatever we do to improve our schools is done in a way that brings us together rather than further dividing us along racial, ethnic, or economic lines.

@Jaxk Federal influence is not the problem with the schools system. Some school districts around the country are great and they have to still comply with the feds. Some of the best school systems around the world are run by the central government of the country. School systems in America are still primarily run locally, Memphis seems to be demonstrating that pretty well.

On a much smaller scale, I got to see a similar situation play out in my own kids’ school district. The county they reside in is huge, and very, very different from one place to another, with rural (both mountain and farm), rich, suburban and inner city environments, all in one county. As a result of geography, one of our high schools had a very very high concentration of all the poor children in the county, and underperformed all the others as a result. (This was our own children’s future-at-the-time high school, as a matter of fact.)

The school board decided to redistrict several schools, changing which middle schools were funneled into which high schools, to more evenly distribute both the burden of educating the poor, and the boon of educating the rich. We were not redistricted, my children were meant to go there all along, and they do. There was quite an uproar about it, at the time. In the end, though, it worked just fine. Really, bright kids will do well wherever they go, and will do better if they are challenged. Kids who are struggling will do better if they have hope, and they, too, will do better if they are challenged. Scores are up everywhere, and my kids’ high school is now the magnet school for AP classes. It’s a complete non-issue, these days.

@augustlan Did the redistricting cause excessive busing? Kids traveling long distances? I think of Seneca and G’burg for us MVJH kids. Half my friends who lived not far away went to the other high school. The one farther out, Seneca, was considered the better school ironically, remember? But, also, the high schools further down county were the much better schools supposedly.

I think your example is why the county should take over, which is how I would have voted if I had lived within the Memphis city limits. Only Memphis voters were able to choose, the people in the county who don’t live within the boundaries of Memphis had no say in the decision.

It wasn’t too far, for those that were redistricted. But it did result in situations like you’re talking about, where people in the same (big) neighborhoods often went to different high schools.

@augustlan Was the poverty and wealth divided racially like it is here? That is what makes the whole thing more tricky where I live. Even if people are not racist, it looks that way.

@JLeslie Very much so, I’m afraid. I’m sure that some of the fear was racism, and some was more rational.

Interesting.