What makes a woman a feminist?

@Charles Are you the return of HC?

To answer your very loaded question which is filled with untrue premises, though, a woman is a feminist who believes in equal rights for women in our very patriarchal society.

For example, equal pay for equal work. Women earned 77 cents on the dollar for what men earned in 2010.

@Charles: “Feminism seems to have gained a rather ugly image. It is seen by a lot of people (mainly men) as something only “overweight bitter lesbians” take part in.”

Huh? What kind of “men” do you associate with?

@Charles: “It’s also seen by a lot of people as women being unclear about what they want – some complain when a man doesn’t open the door/pull out their chair/pay the bill, but then some become insulted when a man does these things. They find it degrading, i.e. “I am an independent women and I am completely capable of doing these things myself, thank you very much.””

Is this “It’s also see” technique the same thing as Fox News’ some people say?
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If you are confused about feminism, why not start with the wikipedia article on it. If you have any questions about something, ask us.

I am a feminist and I am male.

Feminist or not, men should still open doors and slide out chairs for women. It shows you care, just like women will always ask a man ‘are you hungry?’ Let’s be honest.

“For example, equal pay for equal work. Women earned 77 cents on the dollar for what men earned in 2010.”

These are both true statements. Women earn the same as men for equal work. If they didn’t the lawsuits would be all over the place. Employers are watched very carefully so as not to get sued. Also, if women did make 77% of men, employers would bend over backwards to hire them so as so save on labor costs.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. It is not the refusal of chivalry in appropriate circumstances, but it does involve a rejection of male chauvinism. Any self-respecting woman is a feminist, as is any woman-respecting man, though many fail to realize it.

Quick test: do you think women should be allowed to wear pants? If the answer is yes, you are not in a position to reject feminism outright. You might disagree with some feminists about some issues, and you might dislike particular forms of feminism, buy you cannot reject it completely if you are unwilling to turn the clock back that far.

@SavoirFaire Brilliant.

I am a feminist and I am male too. Therefore, women should be held to the same standards as men. For example, no womens sports teams. Just sports teams. Any team that prevents men from joining is sexist.
Fire department standards should only include the top number of candidates needed. If that means 1% are women (because women are in general not as strong as men) – too bad.

@Charles The idea of just sports team is actually not a bad one, as some women are quite good at sports. I don’t see why the NHL couldn’t allow strong, female players. Why do we need all of these lame ‘backburner’ leagues, like the WNBA, nobody cares about or watches except—likely—women?

@Charles Women do earn 77 cents on the dollar compared to men for the same work. It is a fact. It is a matter of record.

“There are really not many jobs that actually require a penis or a vagina, and all other occupations should be open to everyone.”
—Florynce Kennedy

For what it’s worth, @Charles, most feminists would not disagree with you about the fire department issue. To be a fire fighter requires certain skills, and anyone doing the job must have those skills. There are both men and women incapable of the job, and that’s just how things go. What we must be careful of is not rejecting women who are capable of doing the job solely on the basis of the fact that they are women. We must also be careful not to accept men who are incapable of the job solely on the basis of the fact that they are men. Moreover, we need to make sure that the requirements for the job are well-founded and not based on mistaken notions about men, women, or the job itself.

As for the sports teams, I think you fundamentally misunderstand the issue. Women’s teams exist as a response to the sexism already found in sports. Moreover, having women’s teams in no way prevents men from having their own teams or from mixed teams existing (indeed, some mixed teams already do exist). By your logic, no one who is oppressed should ever start anything up on their own to prove that their oppression is unwarranted. The same reasoning would tell us that black people never should have had their own basketball teams back when they were kept off of the white teams. This is foolish. On what grounds should we tell free people that they cannot start their own basketball teams? Why should people not be given an opportunity to prove that they can do something just as well as anyone else?

In all honesty, I must say that you do not really strike me as feminist. You strike me as a sexist attempting to hide his sexism behind the label of feminism. Feminism is not about holding women to the same standards as men. Nor is it about holding men to the same standards of women. It’s about questioning why we have male standards and female standards in the first place. It’s about questioning to what extent the physical differences between men and women should and should not be taken into account. It is about equality beyond mere formalities (such as those on which you seem to be focused). I join @tom_g, then, in suggesting that you take some time to learn about the subject prior to forming opinions about it.

I don’t the like the label “feminist”, it’s a label that has lost it’s original meaning, which was all about equality and choice. Choice to work, to give birth, to be paid equally for equal work.
I don’t do extremist anything and think all labels are damaging and biased in attempting to categorize the complexities of a PERSONS totality.
I consider myself both a feminist AND a woman who enjoys being a woman, which does include SOME chivalry, not much, but yes, some.
I am intelligent, independent but I still enjoy being treated as a woman.
If I am alone and someone runs over a dog, I will drag it out of the road, but if I am with a man, I think it would be nice if he did that bit of dirty work for me. lol

Same goes for certain hard manual work.
I live alone on a 5 acre property and am am quite self sufficient but…if I were to remarry or live with a guy yep, I’d like to think he’d help equally. If he was sitting on his ass watching football while I was laying gravel the driveway I’d have a problem with that. haha

Well, there’s “classical feminism”, which is mostly about “equality” in all of its aspects: equal opportunity for jobs, education and careers of all kinds that don’t have inherent sex-based differences; equal pay for equal work, and equal rights in general. And there’s “radical feminism”, which is very often a “down with men” attitude that certainly doesn’t represent most women.

I’m in the former class.

@SavoirFaire You’re right, of course. Some jobs require physical aspects that could affect its accessibility to a woman or a man. Would a man be hired as wait staff in a Hooters?

What makes a woman a feminist? I think she has to identify herself as a feminist. What makes a man a feminist? Pretty much the same thing.

What makes people believe in the feminism of others? I’d say it has to do with how close they seem to fit their particular model of feminism.

For me, feminism is about fighting the differential treatment of women in the marketplace and in the culture simply because they are women, as opposed to because they prefer to be treated differently.

We love to talk about holding doors. It’s a trivial issue and yet very symbolic. Holding a door is a courtesy, no matter who does it: a man for a woman, a woman for a man, a younger person for an older person. Feminism means (to me) that we hold doors as a courtesy because the person might benefit from having the door held. Sexism means we hold the door because we automatically assume it will get us some advantage over the woman and put her into an inferior position.

It’s the attitude, you see. And who detects the attitude? We all do it individually and we may disagree on the impulse for the courtesy.

A sexist will hold the door for the woman, yet resent and avoid having the door held for him. A feminist or an equalist, will be equally comfortable holding the door and having the door held.

Feminists treat each other based on their personhood and their individual circumstances. Sexists don’t see individual circumstances. They only see perceived gender, and treat the person according to patterns of dominance.

It’s a subtle thing, sometimes. At other times, it’s as obvious as the ocean from the shore. @Charles, I get the sense from you that you have a chip on your shoulder. You seem to resent the notion of feminism even as you call yourself one. That suggests subliminal or even overt sexism. I hope I am wrong.

@wundayatta Well said.

”@Charles Women do earn 77 cents on the dollar compared to men for the same work. It is a fact. It is a matter of record.”

Not for the same work and experience. No way. That’s a myth. If it were true, like I wrote above, lawsuits would have revealed it, companies would have taken advantage of it, and watchdog groups would have outed it.

I think @Charles is correct in this. Aethelraed gave us some numbers about this recently in another question. When you adjust for hours worked and years of experience and type of job (dermatologist vs heart surgeon, as opposed to calling everyone a doctor), the gap is still there, but it is closer to 95 cents on the dollar, if I recall correctly.

And indeed, there are law suits, but they are very difficult to prosecute. The law is not very helpful. The burden of proof is incredibly high. Perhaps it should be, but it does make discrimination hard to show. Harder to show than it should be. I think that is the Republican effect, and it is part of the reason for the gender gap in the presidential preference polls.

Unfortunately, like most of the other issues in the US currently the extremists on both sides are distorting the definition so much that sometimes one cannot tell if it is true feminism or sexism.

A feminist is someone that wants equal opportunity, a sexist wants special treatment to make up for real or imagined wrongs.

@thesparrow There have been women drafted by both MLB and NHL teams. There used to be a minor league baseball team made up entirely of women. I think the NBA and NFL have also had teams invite women to their training camps.

@Charles I showed you a very valid source. You have not showed me any sources for your contention. Here is another source for mine. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. “In 2010, women who were full-time wage and salary workers had median weekly earnings of $669. Women earned 81 percent of the median weekly earnings of their male
counterparts ($824).”

I’m a woman and here’s my description: I believe a feminist woman is one who does not believe in or support constructs, social or otherwise that would limit a woman from whatever rights a male is assumed to be entitled to. Whether or not the woman can adhere to actions supporting the beliefs is another thing but not contradictory because some actions might bring harm rather than expression. That’s not a sellout, that’s survival.

@WestRiverrat Ah, the persuasive definition fallacy. A sexist is not a person who “wants special treatment to make up for real or imagined wrongs.” A sexist is a person who discriminates on the basis of sex in areas where sex makes no difference, typically due to prejudicial beliefs about what characteristics are inherent in the sexes and/or stereotypes about sex roles.

Nice try, though.

Feminism is the belief that women are people, too.

I’d say a feminist is anyone who finds this question insulting and/or ignorant.

dictionary.com says feminist = advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.

So yes, yes I am a feminist. But I do not advocate paid maternity leave, subsidized child care (except in the case of a single parent working for minimum wage), to me they are not feminist issues, they are advocating special treatment, not equal.

In employment, all should be held to the same standard and that should be based on ability to perform the job at hand. No special treatment based on race or sex.

Whoever gets to the door first opens it.

Denim underwear?

“Here is another source for mine. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. “In 2010, women who were full-time wage and salary workers had median weekly earnings of $669. Women earned 81 percent of the median weekly earnings of their male
counterparts ($824).””

You are 100% correct. Too bad it is irrelevant. The data do not represent same job, same experience, same level of education. While men dominate higher paying fields such as engineering and business, women dominate lower paying fields such as school teaching and social sciences. Women take time off for raising kids. By the time they are 45 they statistically have five to ten less years experience.
And, to some other poster, yes it is actually very easy to prove wage discrimination. Most companies report wage vs gender data in EEO reports. Corporations know this and take extremely proactive steps to avoid costly lawsuits. You’d be surprised how much data HR retrieves, processes, analyzes and reports to government auditors to avoid getting slammed.

Finally. from your source: “Readers should note that the comparisons of earnings in this report are on a broad level and do not control for many factors that can be significant in explaining earnings differences.”

Like I wrote earlier, Wage discrimination as described above is a myth. It has to be. No corporation is willing to risk lawsuits and public embarrassment by paying one group less than another. Why the heck would they want to anyway? Because it simply does not like women? Pretty paranoid thinking.

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/05/the-myth-of-the-glass-ceiling/

You identify yourself as one, mostly. But if you know jack shit about actual feminist theory, or fail to hold more than a couple feminist positions, I will probably not take you seriously as a feminist.

ETA: The problem with the door holding thing is this: It keeps trying to categorize women as a group who all want the same thing (the very thing feminists fight against). Yes, some women want the door held open for them out of chivalry, some don’t (for the record, the vast majority of feminists I know are of the “you hold the door for everyone, regardless of sex” position). It’s sort of like how some men like women who make the first move, and some want to be the one to make the first move.

@Charles If you’re a feminist, I’m freaking Hercules.

@Charles I’m not sure I understand your argument about the pay gap. First, no two people have exactly the same job. The issue is often put in terms of men and women doing comparable work, not the exact same work. There is also the problem that men tend to be promoted more quickly than women, undermining the very possibility of women doing the same work.

Second, things like pregnancy leave are concessions to the fact that women are the ones who give birth. Pregnancy is a place where sex really does make a difference, thus we need to accommodate it if we want the species to survive. The notion of human equality is not founded on the belief that we are all interchangeable, but rather that we are of equal worth despite our differences.

Third, you argue that no corporation would be willing to risk a lawsuit, yet corporations risk lawsuits all the time. Indeed, they go so far as to consider a few lawsuits to be the cost of doing business. If they think that the cost of a settlement is less than the cost of doing the right thing, they’ll often go with the settlement.

Fourth, no one is claiming that corporations pay women less due to some explicit and conscious dislike of women. The problem is more subtle than that, and that it is subconscious is perhaps revealed by findings such as that CEO’s tend to take measures against their companies wage gaps when they have daughters.

I’m not sure since there are different varieties of feminists it seems. The women who support true gender equality would be the real feminists to me. Of course there are the we’re equal when we want to be, the ones who are equal when it’s convenient, but different when it’s inconvenient.

@Paradox25 – that is so true and within each catagory, there are degrees as well. It is like saying all white people or Italians or whatever, there is no “all.”

@SavoirFaire What an interesting article. Thanks for helping me with my Evernote collection.

A recent study said “These gender wage gaps are not about women choosing to work less than men – the analysis is comparing apples to apples, men and women who all work full time – and we see that across 40 common occupations, men nearly always earn more than women,” and yet still, it’s 77 cents on the dollar. So, while some studies say when taking into account time off, it’s more like 95 cents on the dollar, other studies say that’s total bull.

A woman is embarrassed to be out in public with a man who doesn’t hold the door for her.

The study that @Aethelflaed referred to made no effort to control for any of a large number of factors that go into determining someone’s salary. It didn’t look at years of experience, or skill level, or previous salary, or whether the workforce was unionized or not and on an on. It made no attempt to see if there are any factors that might explain the wage gap it documented.

It is like comparing the earnings of 55 year old union welders to 22 year old apprentice welders and saying that young people make 68 cents on the dollar for older workers. We have age discrimination.

Also: Women are less likely to receive informal benefits.

Yes, but let’s not forget how hard it is for men to go on paternity leave (versus how easy it is for women). But that’s another story.. the fact that it IS hard is actually detrimental to women because it continues to essentialize us as the primary care-givers (instead of assuming that both the mother and father are equal care-givers). A social change would mean granting equal leave for men and women—as it is done in Switzerland—when they have children and thus assuming that both are primary care-givers. This would de-essentialize women as care-givers, take down some of the stereotypes that women are just ‘lazy’ and looking for a ‘free ride’ and also allow men to take on more active roles as fathers.

This would allow women to feel less guilty about having careers, and it would also take pressure off men to be the sole providers.

Someone who supports equal rights for everyone. That is literally the definition of feminism.