Another question about territorial aggression in dogs, was I right to stand my ground and fight as long as it wasn't too bad or should I have just backed off immediately?

I haven’t had a dog in years, but, I worked with a trainer once with my high energy, dominant hound dog and she taught me to do the “take down”, where you push the dog onto his back and pin him as a sign of dominance. This works well but if the dog is highly aggressive he could fight back. I’m surprised you’re having this issue with a Golden, usually they are very easy going and not aggressive.

Maybe have your brother consult a personal trainer for this particular issue.

Well, dogs are pack animals, and they have a structured heirarchy. He needs to know your place in the pecking order. If you showed him that you rank higher, he shouldn’t “try” you again. Unless you give off mixed signals. You have to be consistent with dogs. So don’t send out submissive energy to him.

@Trillian This wasn’t pack behavior. It was just shy of an actual attack. I think he cut me just a little slack. I didn’t expect it at all from a Golden so I wasn’t alert enough when it happened. I thought he was just up for some really rough play until he clamped down.

@Adirondackwannabe he attacked you after you displayed attacking behavior within his pen, correct? It read to me yesterday when you posted this that he was putting you in your place. You entered his home on his property and attacked.

Golden’s don’t usually display this behavior unless they feel threatened. If you’re the guy that comes over to your brother’s house and plays rough, the dog may be interpreting your actions quite differently than what you think you are doing.

We’ve had this with family farm dogs in the past. Otherwise sweet natured dogs were attacking certain individuals…Well, (IMO) those individuals deserved it. Pinching of ears, growling and other “attack” behaviors were being exerted to the dog by the human.

@SpatzieLover I didn’t think I displayed any attacking behavior. But I did approach him by his house. Something to think on. But he does the same thing in the pen to my brother and his son. Thanks, something to consider.

If he is now displaying this behavior to his own family, it’s time to train him. (I’d say retrain, but at 11mos old, he’ll still be in regular puppy training). He needs to know that he will be safe in his pen. No one should play rough within his pen.

If this were my dog, I’d go back to success training. Reward him for docile behavior at his pen. When he comes out, he’d be rewarding for gentle behavior. Visitors to the home would be encouraged to take him out to play, then when leading him back to his pen, a treat again.

No one would be playing rough with this dog if it were mine, period. Tug play, ball chasing and fun play would be encouraged.

Again, It’s rare for a Golden to enter attack mode unless it’s perceiving a threat or it has a health issue. At 11mos old, this is most likely not a health issue (arthritic pain sometimes brings about random bites).

@SpatzieLover The family enrolled the dog in obedience training a while ago, which surprised me. But I didn’t know about the pen thing until Sunday. I’ll see if it was the reason.

Usually backing down exacerbates the problem. The best thing is to stand your ground but don’t make eye contact, look over the dog’s head. If the dog is actually attacking you while you are simply standing there then I defend myself in any way necessary. I think your brother should look for a trainer who does shutzhund, military or police training. They are the folks who train dogs who must obey without food or clicker. They usually use modified Kohler methods because they work and are quickly taught. I do the alpha roll with all of my dogs but I start when they are young and they are mine, I wouldn’t do it with a dog I only see occasionally. I would get in touch with the local police department and see who does their training and see if you can get some help there.

@rooeytoo Excellent answer. He needs better training. He’s always been a great dog. I’ve been in the pen with him earlier this year.
@SpatzieLover Reviewed it in my head. Nothing aggressive on my part. I talked to him softly, entered the pen, and it wasn’t until I got to the house that he started with me.

@Adirondackwannabe did the dog go in ahead of you? That makes it his house.

The dog was was walking around in his pen, watching the birthday party. He came over to the fence near where I was sitting and I petted him through the fence. He went up by his house and laid down, so I thought I’d go in and keep him company. That was when he came at me. Nothing to indicate anything was up before that.

I wouldn’t worry too much about how much impact or effect a single incident like this has had on the dog. One of the really important things you need to consider and remember regarding the notion of reinforcing behavior is the “re” part of “reinforcing.” That is key. :-) That is a basic principle of operant conditioning,, which is essentially what training a dog or any animal is about.

I don’t know as much about dogs as I should, considering I now happen to have and am responsible to and for one, but I do know a little about this. It generally takes repeated trials to either instill or extinguish a behavior in an animal. That’s one of the reasons training a dog is regarded as “training” rather than seen as simply explaining to the dog how it is supposed to act and that being the end of it. That’s what all the damn treats are about: repeated trials.

You’re having done whatever you did this time, in this one single instance, I don’t think, will have much of an effect on it’s behavior one way or the other, unless you completely and irrevocably traumatized the poor thing, and I doubt that you did that.

I’m not going to get into lengthy discussions about this issue as recent research has lead me to have a different opinion on this situation than most people on this thread so far and I don’t want a heated debate about who’s theories are correct as there is a lot of science out there. However, I will say that I believe that, in many cases, this whole “dominance” and “pack theory” that we use to explain everything dogs do are taken to far are not strictly correct. Here and here will probably explain better what certain behaviours mean without assuming “dominance” is always the answer.

I certainly wouldn’t recommend the alpha roll.

Why wouldn’t you suggest the alpha roll?

@Leanne1986 I’ve always been the alpha male and it’s worked well. This was the first major battle if ever had were I began to wonder. He’s big and he’s strong. What would you suggest?

@rooeytoo I have seen too many fear issues caused by people using it incorrectly (ie: the average pet owner that has seen Cesar doing it on the telly and thinking that it will solve all their obedience/reactivity issues). It has become a popular way of people “training” their dogs without looking deeper into the problem and so (like Cesar says himself) it should not be done without the knowledge and help of a professional and, even then, I am on the fence about how I feel about it as a lot of studies seem to disprove what we have come to believe about the alpha role even in wild wolves.

”“The only reason that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill the animal. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill them. It is not surprising that a lot of people get bit trying to do the alpha roll – the dog believes that the human is trying to kill them so they try and defend themselves. Doing this behavior to an already dominant animal can increase the likelihood of aggression. Doing this to an already submissive animal will increase the fear in that animal – leading to submissive urination and possible fear biting. Hands should never, ever be used to hurt an animal – an alpha roll does just that and its efficacy at asserting dominance is next to zero.”” -

This is something I found in a quick search to try and explain my feelings it although I try not to use words like “submissive” or “dominant” when working with clients and their dogs as they can easily be taken out of context.

I have seen dogs flip each other over in play and in fights and it sure looks like dominance posturing even when done in play. The writer of that quote, to me not only doesn’t know dogs, they don’t even know proper english, should be bitten not bit. And when a dog tries to bite or does something else untoward, a smack or slug with a hand is an efficient teaching method. There is so much misinformation and ill equipped experts, it is the dogs who suffer. They end up tied in the back yard or relinquished to the pound because they never acquire socially acceptable behaviour and/or manners.

@rooeytoo I am currently doing a lot of research on this subject and have to base my opinion and teaching methods on what feels right for me and the clients I am working with (some of who are just looking for general obedience help and some who come to rehab classes for reactivity/aggression issues). I don’t want to get into a debate with you about training methods as I know we often differ in opinion on this subject and I really like you so don’t want to fall out. When I went on the search for a quick example (like the one above) to explain how I feel about the alpha role and “dominance” based training I simply typed into google “alpha roll for dogs”. The majority of what came up on the first page alone was advising against this training technique but, like I said, there is a lot of science out there and any handler should do their research and follow the methods that they feel is right for the dog, first and foremost.