Do you think the Olympics should consider the Muslim holiday Ramadan when scheduling the dates?

Do you know that Muslim athletes ignore the fasting during daylight hours (which is de rigeur during Ramadam)?

Marshall your facts because this is an interesting question.

Yes, I do think they should be considered. Christian holidays are not more important holidays than Muslim holidays, and since the Olympics is for all kinds of religions and cultures, all kinds of holidays should be considered. So if it’s a problem, it should be taken into consideration in my opinion.

They did take Ramadan into consideration. The International Olympic Committee’s nutritional working group studied the impact of fasting and determined it could have an impact on the athletes in some cases and addressed it every way they knew how. However, “When London’s organizing committee released the Games schedule, also six years ago, the U.K.-based Islamic Human Rights Commission lobbied to have London’s Games shifted in the calendar so the July 27-Aug. 12 Olympics would not overlap with Ramadan, which runs until Aug. 18. The overlap would put fasting Islamic athletes at a disadvantage, the human rights group said.

“IOC turned down the request on the grounds that the Olympics is a secular sports event which has ties to no religion. The organization reiterated that this week in a statement: ‘The Olympic Games brings together people of all religions and beliefs. It goes without saying that some days (Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) present difficulties for those who practice certain religions.’” Relevant.

Not unlike Eric Liddell in the 1924 games, whose 100 meter qualifying heat was on a Sunday, and the IOC wold not reschedule.

There are always conflicts, best for the IOC to be secular.

Chariots of Fire was the first thing I thought of when I read the question, @zenvelo.

Here’s an article that deals with this issue.

http://olympics.time.com/2012/07/12/how-to-compete-in-the-olympics-while-fasting-for-ramadan/#ixzz237g0mIGX

There are common-sensical and historical reasons for a dispensation for the two-week span.

‘To Fawaz A. Gerges, Director of the Middle East Centre at the London School of Economics, the varying approaches to the Ramadan fast are a demonstration of Islam’s inherent dynamism. “The element of practicality and flexibility is really fundamental to how Islamic scholars deal with difficult situations.

‘The Olympics are no different – what we are seeing here is the rule, not the exception,” he says, pointing out that out that most Muslim athletes have said in interviews that they will not fast while in London. “They are finding ways and means to compensate, whether it’s doing charity work, feeding the poor, or postponing their fasts.” ’

Nicely researched, @gailcalled.

No

Thanks for all the answers so far.

@gailcalled No, I did not know if they put aside fasting for the games or not. That is why I put a question mark on the sentence. I figured some rabbis would probably say it was ok, because it becomes a health reason, although some Jews I know still would be very hestitant to skip a fast, and that Muslims also would probably out aside fasting for the games.

I am torn about how I feel on the matter. It is very difficult to accomodate every religion and culture concerning what dates to hold major events like this. But, Ramadan is an important holiday from what I understand and there are so many Muslims. If the Olympics were over Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur I think some people would object.

Not really. If you want to participate in a non-religious event, then be prepared to temporarily put any religion-related things aside.

@WillWorkForChocolate Except I would bet host countries do consider the religions predominant in their own country. I doubt America would do an Olympics during Easter or Christmas if the holidays were around the time of year Olympics are typically scheduled. Even the Jewish holidays they might think twice, even though the Jews are such a small number. I guess maybe that is the perogative of the host country?

I’m not so sure about that.

Me either. I’m unsure. But, I think if the Olympics were in Iraq during Christmas, people would complain. I think a lot of Americans would bitch about it.

@JLeslie, you’re right about Americans bitching if the Olympics were held during Christmas in Iraq. Thing is would they be bitching about timing or location? I am an American, and one thing that I know about my country is that we will bitch about ANYTHING we see as an insult. In some ways that can be good because it can lead to good outcomes. Unfortunately, though, we seem to always be able to yell about the slightest perceived “offense.”

The winter Olympics in Iraq? That may not happen.

@bkcunningham Why not? Who says you can’t go skiing on sand?

Um… they have events on Saturdays and Sundays which conflict with various religious beliefs. I don’t think Ramadan should be treated specially. I imagine that Christmas-time Olympics would be difficult in many parts of the world because the transportation and accommodation infrastructure is already maxed out. There are practical considerations of course: if Muslim’s became the majority of attendees, I expect organizers would take that into account.

@GracieT Having the games in Iraq would be an insult? I thought we supposedly fought to free the Iraqi’s from Saddam Hussein? Who is going to be insulted do you think? I am asking seriously, I am not questioning your statement, just wondering who you are thinking of specifically? The antiMuslim crowd here in America? The same ones who probably were gungho for Bush going into the country? I used Iraq only as an example of a primarily Muslim middle eastern country anyway. I wasn’t trying to pick on them. But, I would guess you meant any Arab country anyway would upset some Americans. I just think a lot of Americans don’t stop for a minute and think, what if it was one of my important widely celebrated holidays? But, still I am torn about my question. Where exactly I stand. In the end I guess the hosting country has to do what is best for the country.

@bkcunningham @tups Well, yeah, not the best pick in terms of climate. :) I think there is some snow in the northern mountains? But, that also might be the middle of nowhere, I have no idea, and no idea how much snow falls when it does snow.

@6rant6 Does Christianity actually forbid competing or working on Sunday? In Judaism I think observant people can play, maybe even compete on the sabbath, but I am not sure about the competition. Maybe @gailcalled knows if competition is considered work. I knew observant Jewish people who played tennis on Saturday, but they made someone else carry their racket to the court. And, I don’t know of Christianity mandating fasting like Judaism and the Muslim faith. And, of course I am only mentioning the Abrahamic religions, and there are many others.

The other points you made about tourism and realistic requirements makes perfect sense. I’m not sure Christmas is a time all cities are maxed out. Certainly in Florida it was a big time, and when I was in Las Vegas for Christmas it was very crowded (lots of Jews and Asians) but other parts of the states, cold regions of the states, I would think people are home with family. I guess some of the travelers stay in hotels. I never really thought of tourism patterns during Christmas in the northern US.

@bkcunningham @tups I’ll bet they could develop a ski wax that would allow skiing on sand. I can see it now, ski lifts and all. But what would the skiers wear for protection from sand and sun burns?

No, because Islam doesn’t evolve and many of its 7th-century rules are completely incompatible with 21st-century rules. We should not bend our rules to accommodate backwardness. Ramadan fasting, unlike medical fasting, has numerous adverse effects especially when combined with binge eating which is very common. Depriving the body of water and essential nutrients by dividing and postponing meals to irregular intervals does nothing to limit consumption. Islamic fasting has significant harmful effects on health, national economy and productivity, crime rate, public safety and social behavior. Health effects include heat stress, dehydration, migraines and mood disorders. In a recent study done on the Arab world, diseases linked to cholesterol and diabetes increased by about 27% because of overeating. Muslim teenagers in Western schools cause a lot of trouble for teachers. They can’t concentrate and disturb their classes. The Ramadan fasting rules assume a 7th-century flat earth that kill all devout Muslims who happen to live in northern Scandinavia. No sunset, no water.

So instead of giving in to orthodox Muslims, we should rather listen to the progressive Islamic theologians. Here are some examples.

“Malaysian Islamic and Olympic officials said athletes from the predominantly Muslim country are excused from fasting for Ramadan while competing at the London Games.”

“A few months ago, Moroccan Sheikh Zemzmi issued a fatwa exempting the Olympic football team from fasting during the Olympic Games.”

“Muslim footballers who face the challenge of delivering a top sporting performance no longer have to fast during Ramadan. The German Central Council of Muslims has issued a fatwa which allows them to eat before sunset.”

The Olympic games are a Greek invention and the ancient Greek culture is the foundation on which Western civilization is based. It stands for reason, progress and enlightenment. Everyone should be invited to participate in the games, but the condition is playing by the rules of the people who created the Olympics, or any other sports event for that matter. We can’t allow female soccer players wearing burqas during a game. The rules for clothing are made by the soccer event organizers. The same applies to the schedules for the Olympic games. Devout Muslims should feel free to organize their own pure, halal, women-free games to please Allah.

@mattbrowne I think the exceptions Muslims have made for the Olympics is an example of how many Muslims have “evolved” or are not religious fanatics.

Did you see this woman official at the volleyball matches?

@bkcunningham No, I hadn’t. What about it? Why do you point her out?

To show how Muslims don’t have to compromise their faith to participate in the Olympics. She is wearing her hijab under the uniform and I think that rocks.

We do not exist for the Muslims. The Olympics involve every civilized nation on Earth and it is not for the entire World to adjust to the Muslims…..or any other religion. The Muslims can adjust whatever the Hell they believe to the rest of the World.

Frankly, @JLeslie your question absolutely floors me. Whatever causes you to ask it? Would you ask the same for the Jews? The Christians? The Mormons? The Hindus? And every other religion?

@plethora Yes. When I attended college they did registration mid to late September, and it many times fell on the Jewish high holy days. People complained about it. We couldn’t miss registration it was a big deal. There was no online registration, this is before that invention. We had to stand in long lines, the process took hours, Jews are supposed to fast on Yom Kippur, and some of the days Jews are not supposed to handle money. It didn’t matter for me, because I am not observant, but even non-religious Jews often observe Yom Kippur and fast. My school did not have a very large Jewish population, so the school didn’t really care. We did have a Jewish fraternity and Hillel on campus, and a dorm that was known as the “Jewish Dorm” but still the numbers were pretty small.

The Muslim population in the world is huge. I am not sure what percentage of Olympic athletes are Muslim? And, yes, as I said above, if a Muslim country planned the Olympics on Christmas I would ask this question for the Christians.

Meanwhile, it’s nice to see you! I haven’t seen you in a while.

This says 27% of the athletes in the Olympics are Muslim. I don’t know how accurate it is.

I thought it was a very good question. It made me think and research some things.

@bkcunningham Thanks. The discussion was very informative for me.

Thanks for the welcome. I have been away from Fluther for months.

My comment re this question stands. “We (the world of civilized society) do not exist for the Muslims. The Olympics involve every civilized nation on Earth and it is not for the entire World to adjust to the Muslims…..or any other religion” , including yours and mine.

And if Muslims do make up 27% of the earth’s population, I would consider that far too many, considering their effect on the societies in which they reign, the total debasement of women being JUST ONE of their vile practices. It might be time to cull the Muslims, not cater to them.

@JLeslie – Yes, they have evolved and therefore there is no need to change the rules and the schedule. I was talking about the orthodox ones with their mindset frozen in the 7th century. They would love a different schedule because of the Ramadan fasting rule. But we should not give in to their demand. It would be a huge mistake, in my opinion.

Orthodox Muslims are keen on destroying our Western core values and most people don’t even notice it.

I totally agree with you @plethora !

Estimates are that about 400 – 600 million Muslims out of the 1.5 billion support the orthodox doctrines and a large number of this group also thinks that the 9/11 attacks were justified. But we should not forget that 900 – 1100 million Muslims are either Muslims in name only or they are heterodox, liberal and moderate. They disagree with the total debasement of women and the other vile laws of orthodox Islam.

In Germany there are many orthodox Muslim men who tell their daughters not to befriend any unclean German girls. Orthodox Muslims despise the West.

There are things that our societies cannot tolerate and expect to survive. Justice must take its rightful place above tolerance. Of course, tolerance is a good thing, but not when we allow it to be used cynically against us by those who have no use for it once they obtain power. We need to rediscover critical thinking. The truth is that Islam with its full set of doctrines is not a religion of peace and it is not like other religions. Orthodox Islam does not reciprocate tolerance. Sometimes the truth isn’t comfortable. Sometimes the truth offends. But it is far better that we offend others than lose our own freedom.

@plethora I think there are 20% Muslims around the world. 27% was the number at the Olympics. So, are you ok with the Olympics being held over Christmas? Golden rule, put yourself in the other person shoes, etc, etc? I don’t consider it catering to Muslims, but rather considering religious beliefs and treating others as I would want to be treated. Respecting high holy days is not the same as supporting some of the horrible practices their super religious sects practice. You can find Christians and Jews who are religious fanatics too, who have macho horrible rules in their minds and practices. It’s my belief that the more Muslims are mainstreamed into western society and exposed to less religious extremes, the less fanatic they will be.

@JLeslis: What are the odds that, things being as they are, the Olympics would be held over the Christmas holiday?

According to this source, the Muslims made up 29% of the world’s population in 2011. That figure is growing by 1.84% per annum, so by 2013, that will be almost 30%.

What are the macho horrible rules and horrible practices of super religious Jewish sects? What is a super religious Jewish sect? Do they stone women or cut off their heads for having been raped or having dishonored the family in some imaginary way?

The behavior and strictures on orthodox Jewish women may seem onerous to outsiders, but it is a choice.

Why doesn’t a Muslim woman have the right to her religion as prescribed int the Quran without being mainstreamed into western society? There are far many more Muslims than Jews, no matter how you do the math.

“The total number of self-identified Jews, whether practicing or not, surveyed in the roughly 135 countries of the world where they’re found, amounts to about 0.2% (two tenths of one percent) of the world’s population.* Source

@gailcalled I know all that. I know the stats more or less. I guess there are a few women treated poorly in Orthodox Jewish commuities, more often a psychology personality issue I would think when it happens, like how any person or family can be abusive. There is some level of shunning sometimes, and I think in some orthodoxies the men can divorce women almost at whim, but of course civil law controls how much he can screw his wife over, but these are rare. So?

As far as Olympics over Christmas, well, aren’t the Christians lucky that is unlikely, don’t have to think about it. Again, I am not sure where I am on the topic, but I can see an argument for caring about high holy days in the Muslim religion when such a large percentage of the athletes are Muslim.

I don’t know about the rest of the world, but in the US the objection to having the Olympics in late December wouldn’t be about Christmas but about conflicts with the end of the NFL and College football seasons, especially the bowl games.

The US runs a ton of sporting events on Christmas, what’s a little Olympics too?

@zenvelo Good point. But, Christians are not breaking some sort of religious rule or tradition by playing football on Christmas, are they? There isn’t a conflict that they are breaking one of God’s laws. Is there? I’m asking. I really don’t know for sure. I woman who worked for me hurt her knee very badly and while it was healing didn’t go to temple, because she couldn’t make the walk. I said to her, I think it is ok to drive, it is a health exception, talk to the rabbi. She wouldn’t it do it. She felt so badly about breaking that rule she chose not to go to temple. It’s illogical I know, my only point is peope who observe things like this, it is very hard for them to break the rules, even if the exception has been given the ok.

But, hey, I criticize the Jews for not travelling to see loved ones in the hospital on the sabbath, or leaving relatives in the hospital longer than necessary in a hospital, because of the sabbath, or having to wait for a sabbath elevator to stop at every floor. So, if I think those Jewish people should stop being so rigid, Iguess the Olympics can be on Ramadan.

@JLeslie Seventh Day Adventists are forbidden to compete on Saturday, I think. Orthodox Jews have to be pretty cagey to pretend they can compete.

You know, until all Muslim countries celebrate the participation of their women, this discussion is really only about letting their men contend. Me, personally—I’ve got no sympathy for that.

Also, none of the major religions say, “honor me and you will win the Olympics.” They just say “honor me,”(or “obey me,” depending on your perspective.) They don’t promise success in this life time, but unicorns and rainbows in the next.

Things like fasting are supposed to be sacrifices. The penitent are supposed to give things up for the sake of their god. They are supposed to be difficult, to make life itself problematic. To whine that it’s unfair makes their religion less than their sport. I agree with that of course. I’d put fish and chips ahead of religion, but then that’s me.

See @mattbrowne in post just above yours @JLeslie…..and Winston Churchill below.
Then never again mention an excuse for showing favor of any kind to Muslims. I don’t care that some Muslims are peaceful and want to be our friends. *If they really want to be our friends let me see them fight our enemies in their own camp. If they refuse to fight our enemies, then they are our enemies too.

Winston Churchill quote in his early career prior to 1928.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.

It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

@plethora I’m inclined to agree that many Muslims are “paralyzed” by their religion. I just wrote on my other Q that “I always say the big difference in the Abrahamic religions are the Muslims overfocus on life after death, the Jews focus on life and barely think about death, and the Christians are somewhere in the middle.” Worshipping death is a big problem from what I can tell. Even among Christians it supposedly works as a reason to do good; do good to get into heaven. Thing is, we have found through psych research that a lot of people have a really hard time sacrificing in the present for a bigger reward later. They want what they want in the present. I have heard some Christians say life on earth is hell. Well, that is so far from how I think about it. Jews wear the symbol for life around our necks as charms, some people give money gifts in multiples of 18 (18 means life) I considered my 18th anniversary very special and bought my husband a thing to put on his desk with chai/life on it.

I don’t think the majority of Muslims are paralized, but I think there is a significant number. I think the very religious typically are paralyzed by their faith, all religions. They follow their faith more than they think about new information we have learned as we progress as a people and as a society. Well, not all religions. When the Dali Lama was asked about changing his view on something new science my contradict his old beliefs, he said, if the science is irrefutable, then we would change our beliefs. The Catholic church has said the proof of evolution is overwhelming. But, then there are sects and groups within religions that go off on the extreme, feel they need to stick to the original interpretation they have of their book.

But, now I am getting off track from the original Q.

The Q was very good, I am sufficiently convinced the Olympics should overall ignore religion. I also think it will never be on Christmas or Easter and if it was, a bunch of Christians would complain.

@JLeslie It would seem to me that there is a plethora of religions, who, between them, have some religious celebration of some sort going every day of the year. So the focus on the “poor beleagered muslims” seems a bit out of focus. What’s up with that?

And please note, when I mention the “poor beleagered muslims”, I am referring only to the really nice civilized muslims who are our friends here in the US, not those billions of righteous muslims all over the world who oppress their wives and kill their children. I think those bad guys will go on doing what they do regardless of when the Olympics are held.