I really dislike Fluther, Yahoo answers! and WikiAnswers...

Here is a list of question and answer sites.

I’m sorry that you feel picked on, that isn’t our intention at all. We do have strict writing standards here though, and it is our job to enforce them. We wish you luck, wherever you decide to go.

@Dazed_and_Confused Please reconsider your decision to leave. It can be hard at first adjusting to a site, but I like your contributions and would hate to see you leave.

You were asking a question about your father who is sick and dying and the question was sent back for revision? LOL I’m sorry but that is insane. I hate that someone did that to you, @Dazed_and_Confused. I also wish you’d reconsider. I stopped asking questions here. I couldn’t get them through without a lot of hassle. I just answer questions now.

Look I’ve had an extremely emotional day! I thought this site was great, because it could help people find the answers they need, but instead it just turned into me fighting at least 5–7x a day to get 1 simple question answered. If you guys had any idea how to run Q&A site, you would realize, It’s not the spelling or grammar that matters. It’s the time, effort, and kindness of your answer that makes people feel like some one actually took the time to listen to them. My step dad is still really sick and I tried my best, to ask the question perfectly! I even googled EVERY WORD to be spelled correctly!
and some guy responds
“people wont take you seriously if you don’t capitalize the disease.”
Of course after that I feel like this whole site is filled with grammar police who care nothing more then that! How can one be so heartless to point out the flaws in someone’s spelling errors rather then help out?

@bkcunningham Thanks I like to help people out and answer questions. But maybe you are right, maybe I should just stick to what I am good at :)

I agree it wasn’t nice, @Dazed_and_Confused. I am really sorry you are having a rough day. Take a breather and, please, please, don’t leave. I’ve been tempted to ask others to ask questions for me. I haven’t done that…yet. But I’ve been tempted just because I assume they know the trick to get them through the editing portion of Fluther and I don’t.

I should offer a service. I’ll fix people’s questions (which moderators aren’t allowed to do). Then you won’t have such hassles.

Well, I said I should offer a service. Not that I would.

But everyone knows what I think of the moderation here.

Fluther is great except the fact people care more about spelling errors then they actually care about the questions themselves 99.9% of the time,

I don’t think the word “themselves” is being used correctly in this case.

@filmfann I’m assuming here your being slightly sarcastic, especially while seeing butters, who is my favorite character..

Butters? Butters? I think that is Professor Chaos in disguise, @Dazed_and_Confused.

Lots of cool people have bailed out of here, and left it not necessarily for the better.
Fluther is not for the faint of heart, that is for sure

I’m sorry your dad is dying and that you are having trouble getting your question out there for us to help you. I really hope you don’t leave.

I’m sorry about your frustrating experience, @Dazed_and_Confused. But perhaps it’s useful to remember that the moderation and the writing standards are two of the major reasons why this site is not like Wiki Answers and Yahoo! Answers.

@Jeruba I understand that. I have noticed the people here are intelligent and have great advice but the hassle of getting a question opened to the public is just too difficult for me. Every question I ask has had problems, this one had been submitted twice before I finally got it on. I also had to fight once to get someone to believe me that my grammar was correct and I was not going to change it. Turns out I was right.

To be clear, the question that was moderated didn’t mention that the step-father is dying. It mentioned a condition he has, but it wasn’t about that, exactly. If it had been about his dying, we’d have let it stand until it got some helpful answers. It was this one, and it had more typos than just the lower case “i”.

@Dazed_and_Confused You might want to consider asking a mod for assistance with writing your questions before you post. We’d be happy to help you with spelling and capitalization, and then when you post it, it wouldn’t get modded.

@augustlan Friedreich’s Ataxia is a slow disease, I understand you may have not known what it was considering it’s an orphan disease. but none the less time is short. If I do continue to use this site, considering the people who have answered my question actually cheered me up a bit :) I will try to ask the mod, However if it still doesn’t work out I will try to find a separate site.

Actually, we take down all-caps as errors, too.

@Dazed_and_Confused I’m sorry about your step-dad. {hugs}

@syz…. here we go again “sighs”...

@augustlan Thank You :) I appreciate your time to try to cool me down this time, especially after an emotional day. I also like the fact I actually felt like i was talking to people :) and I will try to take the advice about talking to mods

@Dazed_and_Confused, I hope you have a better day tomorrow. You’ve been through a lot worse in life than a few English errors. LOL You are tough. Please stay around.

Anytime, @Dazed_and_Confused. :)

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t see why you decided to post something insulting the Fluther community before leaving? It makes more sense to me to just drop out quietly.
I wish you luck wherever you go, and I’m sorry to hear about your father.

@Dazed_and_Confused, I can’t promise to always get back to you super quickly, but I am happy to help you with your editing. Just send me a message.

We do get that writing and editing are not everyone’s strong point and we can’t possibly edit everyone’s questions, but as a member rather than a mod, I am happy to help you if you would like me to.

Actually @AshLeigh, I think it’s better people do tell us why they are leaving. Nobody is above learning from our mistakes and just because things have always been this way does not mean they should always remain that way.

Also, I think this is a perfect opportunity for people to offer another member help. We have talked about mentoring before, this is an opportunity to try it. If someone is struggling, surely a few people have the capacity to say I will look at your question and give you some tips? It would strengthen not weaken the community.

I was going to say what @Bellatrix said and also that @AshLeigh should see the underlying message of @Dazed_and_Confused and it is not to insult Fluther, but to express his frustration for trying in vain to get the help that he/she needs.

Also, for some reason a lot of Fluther members equate good spelling/grammar with intelligence—only God knows why! I do not think it’s the best Q&A site and it is just different from other similar sites but that doesn’t make it the best or even above the rest.

@Bellatrix, I don’t understand it, myself, but I’m not reading too far into it.
I do think it was kind of messed up to mod a question about someone’s ill father for such minor mistakes. :(

@AshLeigh, I haven’t looked at the original question but I think @augustlan has explained why it was modded. We do try to leave questions up for a while if it’s clear the poster is emotionally fragile and needs help. This is something for the mod team to have a discussion about in terms of future actions. As I said, we can always learn and adapt :-)

I think @Dazed_and_Confused is frustrated and upset and I can absolutely understand that. I hope they will stay with the community.

If you stay here long enough and get tight with the mods you can get away with crazy shit. You’re a noobie so don’t take it personal

@woodcutter That was so uncalled for and so untrue.

I think that @woodcutter is entitled to his opinion. He seems to have been here long enough to make that statement based on his observations. I have seen some of that firsthand too.

@Yeahright And I am entitled to mine.

“Yeah, right. And I’m entitled to mine.” That is funny. Lighten up guys. The situation has defused. Let’s not keep kicking it, please. i’d hate to have to kick SomeOnes’ Ass….....

We are all entitled to our opinion. Problem is some people don’t like it and feel the need to call them liars.

But @woodcutter‘s opinion is not based on fact. Mods get modded. Very well loved, long-time members get modded. All the time!

I think the problem is that people don’t generally see what gets modded, so they tend to think they are being picked on unfairly, when it is not at all true.

I happen to agree with @woodcutter in that If you stay here long enough and get tight with the mods you can get away with crazy shit. I have seen it with my very own eyes. Long-time members get modded too, I agree with that. But you let some get away with a lot.

When a fav gets “modded” it usually is something like…”” Mod says lets tone it down some” Especially if it was obviously the “fav” who was hot under the collar, usually one of the libtards who couldn’t manage to change someone’s mind, and they get frustrated. It’s normal. Of course if you are a mod you will take offense to what I put there. There are favs here. It would be totally uncool for any mod to even suggest they might have looked the other way for a quick second. Could possibly assfuck the entire fabric of the site if they admitted ever doing it. Totally against protocol. Not saying it happens all the time but I’m telling ya it does.

see what just happend to this dying thread? it got interesting!

I can’t change your minds, obviously, but you’re incorrect.

Mod-bashing yet again is interesting? Yiii.

I don’t know who the “favs” are. I’m always curious when I see someone make that comment because it seems like they must be peeking behind a curtain that’s opaque to me. How in the world do some people think they know what goes on in other people’s PMs from mods?

But I can tell you that I don’t like being modded better than anybody else does. I pretty much think the thing to do is take it with a good grace because it’s hard to be objective where our own behavior is concerned. I trust the mods to do as well by me as they do by others.

Why is it that every time someone tries to point out how moderation isn’t working, they call it “mod-bashing” but when the mods trash someone’s post, you never hear it called user-bashing?

@woodcutter The problem is that you have no idea how often I get modded, just as I have no idea how often you get modded. But I’ll be it pisses us off about equally. They will simply say they must be doing something right if people on both sides of the aisle are equally pissed.

You will never know who the favs are because it is against the rules to name names (you get modded if you do). Noticing who are the favs doesn’t take a peek behind the curtains; on the contrary, they get away with stuff in broad day light. They probably get PMs, but at the same time some of their nonsense doesn’t get deleted. Also, if every time someone gives their opinion about mods/modding and some people don’t like it, they are either called liars, or their comments get labeled as “mod-bashing” which automatically put the comments in a dubious category and prompts the defensive comments of the “mod-loving” team.

PS @wundayatta Jinx!

All I can say is that I have personally modded a founder of this site twice. And he’s my boss! I have been modded by other mods, and most of the other mods have, too.

@augustlan That’s not the point. Of course you have been modded. The question is whether you are getting treated the same as everyone else. There is no way you can possibly prove that without showing all the moderation decisions to an independent judge.

So these conversations are going to be venting conversations. I think you’d be better off listening and sympathizing and vowing to do better. No one can know if you are doing better or worse, anyway. There is zero transparency on this site. You are never going to add any. So why bother to defend yourselves? Stories don’t count. People just shouting past each other.

I’ve seen lots of bad spelling and such happen here that is left alone. If a new member gets one comma out of place or neglects to capitalize something in an answer they will be spoken to. It might be just a bit embarrassing for mods to remind some of the older members here that they slipped but it’s less personal to correct new people. Like before ,I mean it’s totally natural behavior. No need for them hackles guys.

Dazed: I’ve been here for years and have asked almost 2000 questions in total and sometimes I get modded. I make a mistake in grammar, a typo, you know – stuff happens when you type.

One of the greatest things about Fluther is that when you are modded – it is not a (human or otherwise) bot who does it. They actually care about what you are asking and also how you go about asking it – for both the benefit of the asker and the community and site. The mods couldn’t possibly handle editing the questions themselves, think about that for a second – but there is a feature when you are modded to ask for suggestions. They will suggest an alternative and I have used that on occasion.

You can also PM privately a mod or someone else here you know and ask them to help out.

Also, once people know that you are dyslexic or a non-native English speaker – it is taken into consideration.

You are welcome to PM me your future questions and I will try to help you edit them anytime. I am sure that many who have contributed above would offer the same.

Stick around.

Modding doesn’t refer exclusively to grammar. Modding censors ways of expressing ideas too. Grammar modding affects those whose grammar is not their strong suit, but censorship —for lack of a better word—affects those who challenge certain ideas and views.

I make typos left, right and centre and I am not modded. Equally, I don’t mod people for a typo either. If someone uses text speak I would, and I think the rest of the mod team would too. The person would also receive a very polite email reminding them of the standards and offering to help if they need it.

Most modding is about spam. Questions are also give much more attention than answers. You wouldn’t know how often other people are being modded unless you are here 24 hours a day monitoring things. I wouldn’t see every modding decision. Some happen while I am asleep and I am too busy to go back and do an autopsy of the night’s events. Most question modding is, ‘Can you fix up that spelling error in your title” and it’s done and put back.

Yes General is modded and we know some people hate that but that’s the way the site is set up and for the few that don’t like General and just stay away from there, there are an equal number who do.

Personal attacks and flames are also removed. This isn’t an every day occurrence. There are threads where people go off and behave badly and yes, mods may have to go in and remove particularly offensive posts. Often these have been repeatedly flagged by other members and if there is any doubt, it is a consensus decision across the team. Often mods do try to start with a “Flame off” type post. Furthermore, before modding a General question a lot, mods often ask the original poster if they want to move things to social. So it’s up to the questioner what action is taken.

If there are posts you feel should be modded and haven’t been, flag them. It’s your community. If you don’t speak up using the tools available to you, no action may be taken. We aren’t mind readers and we don’t look at every question or post.

I do have to say when a particular mod is criticized, it is often a one-sided discussion. The mod can’t come out and tell their side of the story because that is not allowed and would be unprofessional. I have seen some members who complain twist things to suit themselves and taking full advantage of the fact that the mod in question can’t tell their side of the story.

There are always going to be gripes and no system is perfect. As I said up there ^^ I do think there are occasions when the team needs to reflect on our actions and that does happen and I know I have seen decisions reversed.

Long and short of it is “you can’t please all the people all of the time” but we do our best.

Over and out.

I don’t think it’s that we’re getting away with it, rather than we stop taking it personally.

I’d like to invite anyone who thinks this site has moderation that isn’t working to go spend a while watching a site like Wiki Answers. Sure, they have supervisors who try hard, but they can’t keep up. Good answers are routinely trashed—wiped out and replaced—with juvenile wisecracks and obscenities, and the amount of ignorance displayed by people who post answers (never mind the questions) is somewhere between stunning and staggering. Comparing that with this would be something like comparing a Greyhound station with a ballroom at the Ritz.

Well I took @bkcunningham‘s advice from one of their first comments. I appreciate all the answers! And I totally understand why They remove things because of typos. I am however Dyslexic. So, at times I do feel like I have a bigger chance of, getting frustration after trying to ask and re ask a question several times a day. Especially when I just want an answer. I can see why they do it, I just got really upset about my dad’s post because I’m just very emotional at this moment. And like many of you don’t know I am just a kid, I like to look at myself like a more mature kid, but none the less still a kid. I do hope to stay, and I don’t want to cause a big seen. I guess I shouldn’t be on the internet when trying to distract myself from all my problems, because it results in me taking it out a bit on the internet. I just wish that I had 1 exception because of the dad thing…

This post actually let me see the amazing and wonderful answers I can actually get when a question goes threw. I just get frustrated when typing up the question, then trying to get it threw. But I actually did not know the mods would help before I submit a question. If i knew that, Thant would have been very helpful :)

@Dazed_and_Confused Good for you!

:-)

Spellcheck is good.

@Dazed_and_Confused No one was forced to join. You’ll realize in time you get real time answers here and the moderators just have our best interest as a whole.

Quora.Com also has a clean Q&A

Just chill out and take corrections. You’ll realize in time you’re not the center of the universe. [I was once like you, I think there are quite a few of us here that have lashed out in Meta to scream bloody Mary against the modding system, I’ve quit about 4 times and been reincarnated every single time ]I’ve get my fair share of editing. It could be difficult at times. But just work with the editing and it’ll come to a proper conclusion, so that everyone can understand the question and you’ll get better answers most of the time.

You can also use http://www.fluther.com/contact/ if you want to get someone to check things over. Using that link it goes to all the mods so you will get a response pretty fast.

But there is no shame in being pushed to editing. It happens too all of us.

I personally don’t mind the modding but I don’t think it is the fairest set of guidelines going. It seems to me a lot of it is very discretionary and therefore cannot be dispensed with equality. I personally get so tired of this fine line some people expertly tread between an outright personal attack and mere rude and insulting behavior which apparently is less frowned upon than a misplaced comma or incorrect grammar. I just had this explained to me thusly (by a mod) “For our purposes, personal attacks are things like “you’re an asshole”, “what a loser”, “I hope you die”, or “bitch”, said to or about a specific member.” So it is alright to say to someone you are a constant whiner, etc.. To me they are all personal attacks, worded differently, but just as hurtful and bullying like. To be called a constant whiner for stating your opinion does not invite open discussion or conversation.

So yes, you must be brave and have a very tough hide to survive here, but it must be said not all are like that, but it is safer to only respond to non contentious questions. And never disagree with the sharp tongued ones.

And just for the record answers such as, if you don’t like you can go, or you don’t have to stay here, etc. etc. etc. are not particularly friendly and basically overshadow the offers of helpfulness.

@rooeytoo You wrote, “So it is alright to say to someone you are a constant whiner, etc.. To me they are all personal attacks, worded differently, but just as hurtful and bullying like. To be called a constant whiner for stating your opinion does not invite open discussion or conversation.”

I totally agree with you on this. It seems pure discretionary especially when it comes to what one thinks is a personal attack. And the bullying feeling comes when others hop in to take some jabs and I’ve seen it happen and it’s not pretty.

@_Whitetigress – thank you, it is good to know that I am not just constantly whining about this stuff!!! :-)

^^I agree with you on this too

@rooeytoo Truer words were never spoken.

@rooeytoo I also agree. If you are going to make everybody be nice, then make everyone be nice. Don’t have these lines that make a distinction without a difference. Then people can just find the line and stay on the right side of it, but violate the spirit of the rule. Everyone knows it. It’s total disrespect.

Of course, if you are to say that you disrespect the rules, everyone and their brother reminds you you are free to go elsewhere. That’s really helpful. I never knew there were other websites to go to, and I keep forgetting in between all the times I get reminded. Thanks guys.

But nothing will change. So feel free to complain. Satire is the way to do it if you can’t say things straight. So feel free to write an ode to the modern efficiencies of moderation.

@wundayatta, make sure your ode is punctuated correctly with proper spelling.

I’m a fairly new mod, and I’m not the quickest to jump at dropping the hammer, but there are some things that are a total “no no” for me. Any derogatory use of the word “retard”, for example? Gone.

Yes, we like grammar here. I’m sorry if a user is dyslexic. As a dyscalculic, I can understand where you’re coming from. I’m basically dyslexic with numbers. It’s weird. The mods, myself included, are more than happy to help, and are not trying to attack anyone for any reason, grammar included. It’s just really nice to be able to use a site without having to decipher txtspk or figure out where the sentences are supposed to end.

We’re volunteers. At any moment there can be five mods online, or one, or none at all. Sometimes a post gets buried and we just don’t notice. If something should be moderated, no matter who it is, flag it. We’re not omniscient.

I don’t like to remove posts if at all possible. That’s where “mod says” comes in. If we can get people to chillax a little, then all’s the better. If someone is really insulted, and they flag the post, yep, I’ll remove it.

I wish there were some way to set up the chat room so any online mods can be available for interaction, but still remain anonymous. We certainly don’t need anyone being accused of being someone’s pet mod, or pet user, but it would be nice to have a place for someone to go with moderation questions and have them answered instantly. That may be one way that users with grammar issues (English as a Second Language, dyslexia, etc.) or other problems, to be able to get their questions out quickly, without going through the whole moderation edit system.

@Seek_Kolinahr Look up “dyscalculia.” This seems to fit the description of dyslexia with numbers.

As a moderator, I spend most of my time banning spammers. Lots and lots of spammers. When I’m not doing that, I might be taking down some low-quality posts, maybe some personal attacks, and stuff. There is nothing worse than being the only mod online when a flame war breaks out, which has happened a few times.

I think I’ve done a pretty good job of being impartial. I challenge you to prove me otherwise.

I understand that Grammar matters we don’t want to see like all those terms like “idk” and other short abbreviations, but if it’s something as small as capitalizing a disease that’s a little strict. I mean sure fix it that’s fine but don’t take down the question for hours for a capitalization mistake.

Or if someone is talking in all letters and numbers I get that too but small mistakes shouldn’t be taken down like you screwed up your whole question.

One of the main problems with the question editing process is simply the time it takes to fix stuff.

Either
A) By the time that a user edits the question, the mods are long gone, and won’t see the question for several hours in order to reinstate it.
B) by the time that a mod moderates a question, the user is long gone. When the user returns several hours later, he discovers that his question has been out of commission for quite a while.

We simply don’t have enough mods, and Fluther simply isn’t addictive enough. I think that it would be much better if moderators had enough power to fix small typos and stuff, or if there were a built-in spell-checker when asking questions.

@PhiNotPi I mentioned that I am dyscalculic. I also have issues with spatial recognition, placing names to faces, and right vs. left

@trypaw Nothing is “taken down” unless it is blatant spam. It’s pushed back to the user for editing. In many cases, this is done within moments of the post, and you can see right away what needs to be fixed. We are not trying to hold anyone back from asking a question, we just want the question to be legible. @PhiNotPi is right – we don’t have the ability to make tiny changes (for very good reasons. Who wants to be responsible for making an edit that changes the intended meaning of the asker? Again, we’re not omniscient)

We like to recommend using a browser like Firefox or Google Chrome, which lets you know when you’ve misspelled something. Unfortunately it doesn’t have a grammar check, nor does it point out incorrect capitalisation.

@Seek_Kolinahr Oh, ok, I didn’t see that part. (this is slightly awkward)

Here is another restricted word to add to your list, “Any derogatory use of the word “retard”, for example? Gone.” So it is alright to impugn ones’ personality by accusing them of “constant whining” but verboten to impugn ones’ intellectual capacity. I see, it is becoming more clear now. So how about if you called someone a pseudo-intellectual elitist who wears rose colored glasses and lives in a cotton lined cave and experiences the real world through statistics instead of experience, would that be okay?

This fine line is actually kind of fun sort of like creative cursing.

I’ve just found Quora, which I find to be really the most helpful question and answer website.

Quora is great except is has no anonymity. You either have to say things anonymously (which is different from providing anonymity as a matter of course), or you don’t say it at all. As a result, they have certain interesting topics, where things are not controversial, but they don’t get people to talk about really personal stuff in a way that you can track them.

Also, they have an attitude. They think they are such hot shit because big shot entrepreneurs post there. It’s a status thing with them.

That’s exactly what I like about it.
First of all, you know that the people there are actual experts because they tell you so. Not in a Fluther esque “We’re all experts at something…” Sort of way. That’s something that’s always bothered me about Fluther. I am an actual certified expert in my field and far too often I see posts here from minor enthusiasts or even members who just have a passing opinion on somebody’s question. I have gone so far (as have others) to post a question and include a phrase like “please don’t respond to this question if you have no personal knowledge of this topic.”

Secondly, there’s a sense of accountability when you have to attach your name and credentials to a post.

Also, the crowd that has remained here has really degraded. Everyone I used to look to as an actual expert (in medicine, technology, science, sound…) has left.

@zigmund Being an expert is purely subjective to the viewer/reader, depending whether or not an argument follows the basic rules of logic as well as some sources or tests to come to your conclusion/theory/whatever your stance is. I challenge you to ask a question about your expertise and field of study. I’d bet a good percentage of jellies has the ability to absorb the same information you have and display here with a source and the response would be on equal grounds to your expertise. Now note I’m not personally attacking you or calling your response petty. I’m merely pointing out the fact that knowledge can be achieved by nearly anyone, especially with the power of sources

But my point is that they do not have that knowledge or expertise. I’m not discounting that they could gain the same knowledge and therefore certification, but as of yet none have.

Feels great to be told you don’t know anything, doesn’t it? :P

@rooeytoo Now you really must stop whining.

And guys: it’s the internet, it’s a private website and it’s free. It’s a great community of vets and noobs with terrific voluntary mods. And a wonderful, caring manager. You don’t think it’s as perfect as your life? Really?

Try modding.

Complainers: Put your money where your mouth is and volunteer to Mod. Then we’ll talk.

I would feel more sorry for the mods if they were drafted. A volunteer theoretically does so out of the goodness of their heart and wants nothing in return???

@rooeytoo I didn’t make it up. It’s in the guidelines. There are certain moddable buzzwords that are, as you say “verboten”.

Every Fluther user has agreed, with the creation of their account, to abide by the guidelines, which include the following seen here:

This type of activity is unacceptable everywhere on Fluther, and will be removed:

Not in line with our writing standards
Trolling and propaganda
Self promotional or spammy content
Egocentric attention-grabbing
Hateful, abusive, or bigoted
Harassment of other users
Deceitful or deceptive
Publishing personal information of another user without his or her permission.
Vague, confusing, or generally non-sensical
Illegal content
Pornography or obscenity (if used within reason, cursing is allowed)

“retard”, “faggot”, “nigger”... these words are common words used in hate speech, as we all know. If I personally see them used in such a way, I will remove the post. If they are flagged and I come across the flag, I will remove the post.

You may complain if you like, that is your right, but as a user, you agreed to the guidelines. If you wish to change the guidelines, you may of course petition to do so. I have no dog in that fight – I’m just a volunteer that wants to see my favourite site running smoothly with as many happy users as possible.

Relevant.

You may complain if you like, that is your right, but as a user, you agreed to the guidelines. If you wish to change the guidelines, you may of course petition to do so.

Oh, OK! Sounds terribly close to if you don’t like it, you can____. Fill in the blank.

You can petition to have the guidelines changed. I don’t have the power to change the rules – this isn’t my site. I volunteer to help ensure the guidelines are followed. That is all.

Rules have been changed in the past. The General/Social split has happened since I’ve been a member. It made a lot of people happy, and a lot unhappy. We can’t please everyone, but we do try for a general consensus of tolerable.

Vague, confusing, or generally non-sensical

Most of my posts fit that one.

@Seek_Kolinahr – I have absolutely no problem with guidelines that are exact, okay, I won’t use retard, faggot or nigger (I don’t use those words anyhow so it won’t be difficult). It is the subjective that I object too. A mod recently accused me of Whining constantly, I feel that is “Abusive” and untrue. She also made another insinuation that was rude and bullying, but the post was not removed because it was not considered a personal attack. Now I don’t know about you, but to me, being accused of constant whining is indeed abusive and a personal attack. That is what I mean, this subjective, it seems like how insulting is it?? No forbidden words were used by me or her so it stayed. Now in the past this same mod has had numerous complaints about the same subject, but she did not accuse herself of constant whining.

So bottom line, I would feel better if the rules were more precise. An insult is an insult, no subjective assessments involved, bullying is bullying, no subjectivity involved. This is the second time this has happened to me. Both times it was a mod who hurled the insult, I wonder if the outcome would have been different had the situations been reversed and I were the one doing the insulting?????? I also think this comes under the blanket of harrassing behaviour.

I have no problem with modding, I think it is necessary. There are just some mods who remind me of small town cops, they get a little power mad and forget their manners and civility. One can disagree without resorting to name calling.

@rooeytoo, I don’t need to hide from what I said in this thread. I absolutely stand by my comments there. They were made as a member not a moderator and while I might have used the word complain rather than whine, I do not retract the premise. From my perspective you do constantly complain about our adopted country. I do refute your claim that I also complain about the country I live in. I don’t. I feel absolutely blessed to live in Australia and if I feel you are being unreasonable or putting forward inaccurate criticisms, especially when you don’t provide any evidence to back up your assertions, I will challenge your claims.

I don’t really care whether you like me disagreeing with you or if you go on to make a fuss about the way I phrased my criticism. My criticism stands and I don’t feel any shame or need to hide by not putting my name to the comments. I don’t believe what I said was a personal attack but I would quietly stand for the post being removed if the moderation team felt it should be removed. They, without any input from me, decided otherwise. I have not discussed this matter with them. It wouldn’t be ethical for me to do so. As far as I am concerned I called out out on a misrepresentation of a situation and on your ongoing criticism of my country.

I think what is often forgotten is that a: it’s a private site and b: the mods are volunteers and c: sometimes one, three or no mods are around and then d: they mod together and one cannot know who has actually modded the post/question – which is a good thing. So to assume anything usually makes the old ass out of you and me.

As someone who has been here forever, and has been modded aplenty – and even banned once from the site for a couple of weeks – I say to those who complain about modding: try it. Put up, or for heaven’s sake, shut the fuck up.

@Bellatrix – Why am I not surprised that anyone as self righteous as you would not dream of apologising to me for what you consider a justified insult. But are you saying you have never complained about anything about Australia? Do I have to hunt for the criticisms.? Seems as if you have not approved of the government handling of indigenous affairs in many areas. There were other occasions as well. And what did I say that was a misrepresentation? There have been 9 sexual assaults just recently in Melbourne, 2 attempted child abductions in Melbourne suburb, shootings almost daily in Sydney, now a group of corrupt customs officers. And if you think there are not an astounding number of unregistered guns and shooters in the NT, you must have been living, I have no idea where, because they are everywhere. So what did I say that was a misrepresentation? And why is reporting what is, whining?

And really, a review at this point in time would be, well pointless since the anonymity is lost and I am afraid I don’t think my complaint would get a fair shot against you.

@zensky – I don’t want to shut the fuck up. I was the victim of a personal attack and I resent the fact that it has subjectively been determined not to be as serious as if she had called me a retard, faggot or nigger. To me what she said was more insulting than to be called any of those names. I said before, I don’t have a problem with mods in general, just the ones who insult me and then claim it is justified. And for heaven’s sakes, we all know they are volunteers (not drafted) and they are not paid. But my complaint is that it was NOT modded because of the subjectivity of the guidelines. One is not allowed to comment on race, sexual orientation, mental capacity but an attack on a perceived aspect of ones’ personality, basically name calling, is acceptable.

There are some in here whose opinions I think are total, idiotic, fucking drivel (or pure baloney a phrase I recently saw used to describe another’s opinion), but I am too polite to say so because everyone is entitled to state their opinion on a Q & A site. And I am not self absorbed enough to assume without a doubt that my point of view is the only viable one in the world! It is a shame we don’t all play by the same rules or guidelines, maybe the defection rate would drop if we did.

I don’t see anywhere in my post that I mentioned anyone personally. I have said this before and I will say it again: I wouldn’t be a mod and I have a lot of respect for those who do it. Those who complain about modding are usually those who wouldn’t do it themselves. But then, nobody learns anything and no-one would readily admit being in the wrong. So fuck it.

But @rooey, since you have dragged me into this, you said: And I am not self absorbed enough to assume without a doubt that my point of view is the only viable one in the world! It takes one to know one. Maybe you are exactly that? Reflect.

You didn’t, I just assumed since I am having a disagreement with a mod who insulted me. But I am capable of apologising so I am sorry I assumed. It is a dangerous thing to do!

Assume: making an ass out of u and me.

It’s best not to take anything personally on here. My questions have been modded a few times, but I’m thankful for it. Some of those other sites are crawling with flamers and trolls, and trust me they will not be as sympathetic to your condition. Damn I’ve had people following me actually drop me from their fluther just for posting an opinion they disagreed with (I highly suspect), but I’ll still go on and continue to be a thorn in their side.

Some of us would help you with spelling issues, even though I’m just a regular blue-collar working guy, not a linguilist or writing skills expert. I’m not perfect at it myself, and half of the time I can’t even use affect and effect properly. My prayers are with you and your father.

Wowzers! This thread is an eye-opener for a noob! From what I’ve seen, I think the mods are doing a great job removing spam and keeping things civil. I know that it’s not an easy job.

I understand prohibiting txtspk and all caps, but I haven’t come across the reason for the emphasis on grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Not everyone has received a quality, thorough education in those areas. I know very intelligent, clever people who have never finished high school, and lack those skills. I admit, at times their prose is awkward to read, but I figure that it’s my issue to deal with if I want to enjoy the benefits of their knowledge and expertise. The content of their message is what is important to me. I also admit that I would like to see a greater mastery of the English language, but I leave that objective to the schools, parents, and individuals.

Can someone explain why critical writing skills are a priority here?

@bossob The site’s founders are word nerds! Like many of us here. :)

On a more serious note, proper writing is one of the things that sets Fluther apart from many other places on the web, where txtspk abounds. See our writing standards for more information.

@bossob Because it’s really, really difficult to carry on a conversation when you have to work extra-hard to figure out what the heck the last person was talking about.

Punctuation and grammar are especially important <—Funny and relevant.

@Seek_Kolinahr Loved the Google search example – very relevant here.

That one almost made me spit out my coffee. ^_^

I don’t think @bossob question has been answered. Can someone explain why critical writing skills are a priority here? I’d also like to know.

@augustlan Yes, it probably sets this site apart from others—it’s a fact. But again why is it so important? Because it makes things clear. Yes, that’s also true, but both in real life and the Internet people are not always so clear, yet we manage to communicate and understand one another.
In my opinion, the Internet has its own rules in many aspects one of which is text speak and certain disregard for punctuation—the reasons for the development of text speak for digital communication are many since people are trying to type as they think, contrary to a piece of formal writing where you would think and outline then proceed to write. Why then do we have to write here as if we were writing a school paper? We wouldn’t speak like this in real life. It’s not natural. Here we are supposed to use formal language yet certain informal/offensive words abound, i.e., …reason: fuck it, you can pretty much say whatever the hell you fucking feel like so I don’t see what the fuck is the problem here.

So in technical terms, we have to write according to prescribed morphological and syntactical rules, yet informal, strong lexicon is allowed…beats me.

Another aspect—also mentioned by @bossob—I’d like someone to elaborate on is the seemingly direct relation between intelligence and grammar correctness/writing skills that is implied here. I am a teacher and not always the students that write well are the ones that actually nail the analysis expected on certain matters; conversely, some students that lack good writing abilities do come up with very interesting ideas.

Things like in the link provided by @glacial happen all the time, not only on the Internet but also in formal writing. There are a number of linguistic ambiguities that can be analyzed from different angles (functional, lexical, grouping) and that are not always caused/solved through grammatical correctness. Context and reasonable inferences play an important part in disambiguation too.

@Yeahright The link was provided by @Seek_Kolinahr. The point of the Google search example is that you are likely to find a higher level of discourse on a site where people write with care. The questions are more varied, more interesting.

I would guess that almost every thread on Fluther contains a few misspellings and a little bad grammar (mine included). The moderation is not so strict that people can’t communicate with each other casually. But there is a standard, and I appreciate that. It is one of my top reasons for enjoying Fluther.

@glacial Oh yes, sorry, it wasn’t you that gave the link. But again, the higher level of discourse that you mention should also imply formal lexicon and no use of the f-word and the like.

We’re not trying to make Fluther an APA-approved essay site… just make it easy to understand what the eff people are talking about.

n0 1 wuld lik it if we 411 t41|<3d in txtspk and 1337.

as of nao we just ask ppl to avoid takin the easy way out and typin witout levin haff the letrs out and usin no puntiation or capitalisin the letrs that shud be done i mean is that 2 much 2 ask

I just came across this question it’ s a good example of how strict grammar rules can invalidate a question that in my opinion was a good question, and as a result the OP was left without an answer to a question. Just one preposition of kids as opposed to for kids made the question a bit awkward but, nevertheless, I understood it right away. However, the question prompted some people to laugh and others gave a funny, mocking answer in return. Did they give the OP a chance? I don’t think so.
In this case, as I stated before, context and reasonable inferences could have helped to clarify things. The question of course could have been asked by a troll, but could have also been asked by a non-native speaker who confused the prepositions. Bottom line, the question was closed, the OP got not answer, and once again a new member was excluded. I wonder if he is ever coming back or if that helps in any way to make new members stay or even attract new ones.

@Seek_Kolinahr Making fun of the matter at hand is not of great help. I am addressing the subject with a degree of seriousness. I am in no way suggesting we should switch to text speak to the extent that you did taking things to an absurd extreme. I just think that the other extreme (so called correctness) is just as bad.

@Yeahright The grammatical incorrectness in that question made it impossible to understand. Such a question, without edits, would be rife with unhelpful jokes.

The user could still make the appropriate edits (changing “of” to “for”, for instance) and have the question reinstated – with hopes of actually getting an answer.

And reductio ad absurdum is my favourite logical fallacy. ^_^

@Yeahright I’m having trouble determining, from your last two posts, whether you would prefer that the guidelines be more lax or more strict. Or are you just saying that since the placement of the line is arbitrary, there should be none at all?

For what it’s worth, I had to read the “of kids” question three times before I figured out what the OP was asking. Often, that sort of miswording leads to responses that are unhelpful or misdirected – and then half the thread is dedicated to clarification. The question will end up being re-posted in a clearer version – why is that a bad thing?

@Seek_Kolinahr The question was not impossible to understand. I understood it. ..would be a rife…jokes. Certainly, but only by people who take everything as a joke and enjoy making fun of others and hardly contribute with anything worth the time here.

@glacial I think the guidelines should be less arbitrary and more lax in general. I think they should be revised to find a more reasonable criteria that is more realistic to a variety of users. However, if guidelines are to be strict then, as I said before, they should not only consider morphological and syntactical formalities but also lexical.
You say you had to read the question three times. So you actually thought at some point that the material of the bed the OP was asking was made out of what? Kids’ flesh? It makes no sense to me whatsoever. (Just trying to understand your train of thought here.) I inferred he was asking something more logical as it is beds made specially for kids not for adults.
And yes, absolutely, re-posting a corrected version of the question is a good thing.

Considering the user’s other questions, they could have been asking for a bed (or perhaps a couch) made of young goat leather – thus, made of kids.

Of course, that user was a spammer with multiple accounts on the same IP, so you couldn’t possibly know that they were the same person.

See? not as clear as you thought.

I immediately understood what Is it too costly to buy the beds that are made of kids? meant, and assumed the OP did not speak English well. I also knew what type of answers the OP would get because of that one simple misunderstanding. just sayin’~

@jonsblond Ditto.

I’m out of here. Have no time/desire to prove any point here. Just adding my two cents.

What if they really did mean made of kids instead of made for kids? Would they have been allowed to ask the question?

Are there any such beds at stores? I doubt it. Things made out of hair and skin of Jewish people in the Holocaust caused a great stir. The fact that they closed the question answers your question. Although I have seen questions here that refer to criminal activity that have not been deleted.

As @Seek_Kolinahr said, the ‘bed of kids’ dude was a spammer.

@Yeahright, when I send questions back because of spelling or grammar problems I usually point out what the problems are. I may not edit the whole question (some are overly long and just so badly written I would have to rewrite the whole thing) but I will usually give them examples and tell them they can ask for help if they need it.

I certainly don’t just throw people out of the boat and leave them to drown when they submit questions that need some editing.

As to questions and answers suggesting criminal activity, rather than complain about it here, how about flagging? Mods can’t read every post on Fluther. We rely on members of the community to identify problems too.

Good point, @Bellatrix. We usually do try to point out the errors and corrections to them.

@Yeahright I did answer @bossob‘s question, when I said “the founders are word nerds”. In all seriousness, they really are language oriented guys and it was important to them that the site be likewise. Important to them = important to Fluther.

@augustlan Perhaps what @bossob and I wanted to get at was why it is important for them in terms of what is the criterion behind it. I am a linguist so I can’t imagine anyone more language oriented than that, yet I don’t always view language from a prescriptive angle but rather from a more pragmatic perspective.

Organizations, online and in real life, have policies and procedures in place that are intended to benefit the organization in some manner. Oft times, the purpose of the intentions is not obvious to newcomers. My question was merely one of curiosity.

From the answers posted that addressed my question, I have learned that proper use of English was important to the founders, and that it can make content comprehension easier. Thank you for your replies.

But I’m still unclear how, and if, the Writing Rules support the long term good health of Fluther. Is there an increase in membership and participation due to the Writing Rules, or is there a restriction of growth, and loss of members, due to the enforcement? Participation numbers are but one method to evaluate the success of an online community, and perhaps numbers weren’t a priority to the founders. Founders of organizations, online and in real life, often set standards to accommodate their personal preferences. That is neither right nor wrong as long as they are satisfied with the results.

Just curious.

@bossob Fluther is pretty much a self-selecting environment and that does make us a bit of a niche market. We’ll probably never be as big as, say, Yahoo Answers, and that’s okay with us. Don’t get me wrong, we certainly like growth, but not just for the sake of growth, you know? Our standards are more important to us than our size.

@Yeahright I’m really not sure how to answer you more precisely. I’m sure people view language in different ways, and this site is based on the founders’ viewpoint. They want us to give our best efforts to use English properly, but don’t care if we cuss while we do it. ;)

@augustlan Point taken. I’ve always had a problem with things that have a just because attached to them, and was just trying to get to the bottom of what I view as antagonistic and non congruent with attracting new members and encouraging newbies to stay (let’s not forget the original question of this thread). I’ve never liked cliques, so I’m still uncomfortable with the underlying notion that because people know how to spell and where to place a comma, they are more intelligent, insightful, etc., and thus belong to a exclusive group and in the process excluding people that would otherwise stay and contribute to the discussions. Also, the term self-selecting sounds terribly similar to excluding to me, but that’s OK, I’ll just assume a just-because explanation to it.

<asshole> *comma. </asshole>

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Totally uncalled for.
I could, but refuse to, get down to such low levels.

Physician, heal thyself.

No, seriously, we look out for each other. I get modded all the time. Most recently for jokingly quoting Doctor Who on a question in General.

Let’s see if you do get modded this time, or if it stays there for the world to see how mods mod here.
We are certainly in good hands.

Social rules apply here. Also, I don’t know if it was clear. The ”<asshole>” bit wasn’t a personal attack against you. It’s was an “html” style tag, meaning I was jokingly using a jerk-ish voice to point out that you misspelled “comma”. It was supposed to be funny.

I’d love to stay and chat, but it so happens that I have constructive stuff to attend to instead.

Pffffttt this is getting way off topic… anyways… the guidelines are pretty tight, which sometimes I can understand but I’ve been accused of stupid things as well so has my friend trypaw. She made a question regarding a saliva test then was accused of smoking salvia? I once made a question about my cat shedding too much and some answers went something along the lines of not properly taking care of him. Or I was acussed big time, of being a TERRIBLE person because I read an email with my name on it on my bosses desk saying I’m a ditz. I was told I was terrible for snooping(which was not my intentions, you see something with your name your gonna read it), when my question was just should I quit? And how do I do that?
So as this is a great site full of wonderful answers, you can creat a mob of angry people in a question which becomes misinterpreted. But is that the “questioners” fault or the readers fault? I believe rules are always nessesary and but it is the internet .Things can be misinterpreted, read in a wrong tone, and people can take things the wrong way or not hear the sarcasim or not hear the sadness in text.
I think giving someone a 24 hour warning about a question would be awesome, so you have time to change the spelling and grammar but in the mean time have your question answered. So you don’t come home from work expecting answers just to realise your question didn’t last 10 minutes before being taken down for a missing comma, and you needed answers right away.
(P.s I appologise for my misspelling and grammar a head of time I’m using my phone which doesn’t have spell check)

<explanation> @Yeahright and @Seek_Kolinahr I almost modded Seek’s comment, my knee-jerk response to seeing the word “asshole”. Then I realized she was essentially calling herself an asshole, by way of html. </explanation>

And yet, how do you know you were right, @augustlan? I and perhaps many others thought she was calling someone else an asshole. Indeed, she may cleverly be doing so, while saying she isn’t, just to throw people off the scent.

I’m glad you left the comment, but it disturbs me that it was even a close decision. And of course, it shows a way around moderation.

@wundayatta I don’t think she is saying it was a close decision. I think she is saying that it took a moment to realize the intent. I had the same reaction – but once you see it, it is pretty obviously a self-deprecating comment, not an insult.

I thought it was an insult until someone explained it to us. (I don’t speak html. just sayin’)

I don’t see the humor in it. I was shocked when I first saw it. It is in any case a very unusual way to moderate a comment specially considering that I have been consistently referring to the indiscriminate use of offensive language by some here.

The fact is that everyone’s reaction upon reading for the first time thought it was an insult, so much that it had to be explained. And yet it still sounds far fetched, even if indeed she is calling herself such name. It seems that no one besides @Seek_Kolinahr saw the humor in it.

@Yeahright I see the humour in it. I’m not sure why you’re still taking offense, when it plainly was not meant as an insult.

Cussing is allowed, so long as it’s not a personal attack. I wrote a PM to @Yeahright last night, explaining how html tags work and apologizing for the misunderstanding.

@glacial You probably see the humor in it now. But I was referring to the reaction we all had when we read it for the first time. I am not taking offense by it, never did, simply because it doesn’t mean that much to me. I am just expressing my thoughts about that kind of moderation. You are talking as if it were you who actually wrote the thing, like you know for a fact exactly what her train of thought was. I don’t know what part of my comment you didn’t understand but I clearly stated that I find that kind of moderation very unusual to put it mildly.

@augustlan Yes, I got your PM, I was going to write back thanking you for the explanation, but since you brought it up here, I am going to thank you here. Thanks for the explanation and apology.

I speak a couple of languages, just html is not one of them.

It was a personal attack wrapped in an html code. She thought it was clever. Come on, please, let us all keep it real.

@Yeahright For starters, I don’t understand why you keep referring to the comment as moderation…
I recognize html jokes because I have seen and used them here and on other fora.

And, uh, we are keeping it real, @bkcunningham. If you think that remark was a personal attack, you just don’t understand it.

@glacial You need to start reading these things more carefully you know. I had misspelled the word “comma” she was correcting it (that is part of the mods’ duties within moderation). It was the way that she did it that caused this. Also, the correction itself was…I can’t even find a word to describe it. Also, did you understand what she meant by Physician heal thyself?

So she is an asshole? That is the joke? Hahaha She is an asshole. Hilarious. Just joking.

@bkcunningham The joke is that @Seek_Kolinahr was calling herself an asshole. That has already been explained to death here.

@Yeahright Her comment was not moderation. It was a joke. If your comment had been moderated, it would have been removed with the annotation ”response moderated (reason)”.

It was the sort of comment any member of fluther might have made, as a friendly (yeah, I get that you won’t believe that) correction of a simple mistake – a mistake which did not deserve to be moderated. That. Is. The. Joke.

Please understand that I’m commenting on this because I don’t like to see people who are quite rational and fair being accused of something that they obviously haven’t done, just because their sense of humour is quirky.

@glacial You keep insisting on explaining the joke as if we haven’t understood it yet. Fact is, it is not funny. Jokes need not be explained at such lengths. They are just funny right from the start if they are good jokes.

Mmkay. I’m done.

It wasn’t a moderation action at all, just to be clear.

@augustlan As I said before, I consider any action or duty of a moderator a moderation action. My understanding is that when she corrected me she was acting as a mod not as a member. She was correcting a spelling mistake as a mod.

So she called herself an asshole even though it looked as if she was calling someone else an asshole, that is what I glean. But the interesting point is that calling someone an asshole would usually be considered a personal attack. Well I am assuming that is on the wrong side of the fine line. But since she was attacking herself, it is acceptable? I am having such difficulties figuring out what exactly constitutes a personal attack as opposed to plain old rudeness and bad manners, now here is another rule to add to the one of the 3 forbidden words, that is you are allowed to attack yourself, personally or otherwise! But then why can’t you call someone an asshole, it’s not one of the 3 bad words, why is it a personal attack? It doesn’t refer to race, intellectual ability or gender identification?

That should make selfconsumingcanible happy (he can attack himself with impunity). That is a joke too, but I don’t know how to html it.

@rooeytoo Well, I don’t know the answer to your questions. But to be on the safe side if you ever need to call someone or yourself that, all you have to do is put it in the right language and make sure you use your < > and you’ll be just fine.

@Yeahright – it’s the Fine Line of Fluther! Walking it is a highly skilled art form. And some here are masters at it. They can take all sorts of shots at you, insult you, demean and belittle you but not get modded because they manage to stay on the right side of the line. I have found the best way is to just avoid the <assholes> *comma. </assholes>, although some are pervasive and seem to answer just about every question asked. So the next line of defence is to answer and wear a bullet proof vest on your psyche and be prepared for the onslaught if you have the audacity to venture a differing opinion. Fluther is good fun, but nothing’s perfect.

As I’ve already explained, html tags refer to the statement one is making, and is not directed toward anyone other than the person making the post. I’ve used them myself, as have many other people here. If I wanted to brag about my kids for instance, I could say ”<mombrag> My kids are awesome. </mombrag>”. This type of thing is never directed to anyone but the person posting it. For whatever reason, no one has ever mistaken them for a direct response to another member before now.

It was also definitely not an official moderator action. We don’t work that way. If it was a mod action, we’d have simply removed the post for typos (and we hardly ever remove an answer with one tiny typo in it). This was just like any other member pointing out a typo, though I understand that when one is a mod all of our actions can be perceived as a ‘mod action’. Now, calling out a typo isn’t very nice itself, but it still isn’t a personal attack.

@Seek_Kolinahr has decided to step down from the mod team. It certainly isn’t a bed of roses. :(

@Yeahright So you see some of the ways that fluther struggles. It really wants to enforce certain quality standards, but you simply can’t do it; not and be consistent at the same time. So the moderators have to make personal calls, and then it’s off to the races, because there is no consistency.

Then we get into arguments about whether it is necessary. A lot of people like moderation. I am mostly disappointed by it. Now, if I called the moderators “assholes,” then my post would get moderated, but I am not calling them assholes. I’m merely “disappointed” by the way they act.

I don’t like calling people assholes, anyway. It’s uncouth and hurtful for no particular reason. I like @Seek_Kolinahr, but am not unhappy that she is an ordinary citizen again. I don’t like it when people act with “moderator head.” Unless they are getting rid of spam. That, I think, is a noble calling.

But trolls and personal insults are much better taken care of with social pressure and ignoring people. These are very effective techniques, and they allow people to learn to self-regulate and conform to local norms. I was much happier back in the days when one could use suasion to get people to moderate themselves. Now we have moderators and it doesn’t matter what you say. Someone will take care of it if someone thinks you are being an asshole.

My problem is that, if you notice by looking at my avatar, I am always an asshole. Or at least an ass. Of course, if anyone looks closely, they’ll notice that’s not actually the case. But on the surface, that’s what I look like. Take a close look, and maybe you’ll see more. A lot of people do.

I do so love the metaphor my avatar is. And so few people get it.

Um, @wundayatta, Fluther has had mods since before you got here, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say “back in the days”...

I remember a number of conversations that were, shall we say, rather freewheeling. I don’t think they would be allowed to happen now.