What do you think about what was said at this Christian wedding I went to?

I’ve been to many, many weddings in my life and have never heard a minister say anything like that. I think he listens to Fox TV too much.
As a christian I do not feel everyone is against me, I have never been told that in any church service I have attended.

Shitty priest IMO. Not the time nor place for that kinda talk.

Is there a denomination associated with this marriage? I can’t think of any Christian Minister/Priest/Pastor that would say that. Marriage is encouraged in all of the Christian traditions that I know of.

@dxs The church is The First Evangelical Church I don’t know if there is a denomination other than Christian? Maybe you will see it on the site where I might have missed it. I realize evangelical is going to mean it will be a very religious ceremony full of Christ and God, but that politically incorrect line just really really threw me. We were all there in attendance supporting this Christian marriage after all. The ceremony felt like preaching the majority of the time rather than about a wedding of the two people.

@chyna I’m glad to hear that. I was hoping this is unusual.

Grr, I hate it when I lose a response I’m working on! I’ll try again.

This is a sentiment I’ve heard in Baptist and Mennonite sermons (I can’t remember if specifically in weddings, but it would definitely have been possible), and in casual conversation among “born-again” evangelical Christians. I have never heard it in other Christian churches. People tend to lump all Christians together a lot, forgetting that there are big differences in how specific Christian sects interpret the Bible, and in how they view their place in the world and their responsibility to it.

It is increasingly common in evangelistic circles. Not everyone feels that way.

To be clear I am not lumping all Christians together. I realize each denomination is different and also that every Christian is an individual. This response is not directed at any particular jelly. I just bolded it so new jellies who come to the Q will see this without me editing the information in the main question.

@JLeslie It seems like the Priest who is the problem, but I really cannot tell for sure because I am not an Evangelist and have never been to a service. All I know is that Evangelists focus on the Gospel (their name comes from the Greek word for gospel) and its message. And Jesus was very inspiring and uplifting in his time, not discouraging.

@JLeslie Well… you did actually, by asking if this was common at Christian weddings. I don’t think that is in any way offensive, but everyone will begin by saying that it is not common within every Christian religion.

To answer your question “Why would this happen?”, I think the important thing is to realize that hearing these kinds of remarks does not make them feel bad. It is not a negative statement to them, but a very positive one. It is like saying “You are strong where strength is needed”. It says that they are special, that they are chosen, in a way.

I’ve been to a couple of catholic weddings, and this was not the case. In fact, the goal of the priest appeared to be bore everyone to death rather than sell them on a persecution delusion.

@glacial Yes, I realize just putting “Christian” in my main question can be interpreted that way, which is why some jellies seemed to have the need to tell me not all Christians are alike, which is why I tried to clarify I do not and have never thought all Christian sects are alike. But, having said that, I was curious if this is seen in Christian wedding ceremonies, meaning all Christian ceremonies of any denomination.

I don’t think it makes them feel badly. But, I appreciate you making this point. The point of their perception and interpretation of the comment. I think it makes them feel people are against them, trying to squash their Christian rights and voice.

This church has some position papers on its website, including one on marriage, divorce and remarriage, which states:

It is in marriage only that a man and a woman legitimately become united as one flesh. Apart from marriage, sexual union is illegitimate and contrary to God’s purposes for His people (1 Cor. 6:16–20)—and this illegitimacy applies to non-Christians as well, for marriage is God’s design and oversight. For Christians, however, a husband and wife’s sexual union seals the covenant a marrying man and woman enter into before God (Mal. 2:14; 1 Cor. 7:1–5).

Thus, in Christian marriage vows, the man and woman solemnly swear fidelity to one another for life, depicting the covenant Christ has unconditionally made with His bride, the church (Eph. 5:31–32). The covenant is made by vow and sealed (consummated) by sexual union. God’s standard is chastity before marriage and fidelity afterwards.

and

Christian marriage is a union of two believers professing faith alone in Jesus Christ alone by grace alone (1 Cor. 7:39, 2 Cor. 6:14–15). Therefore marriage at its best exists first and foremost to glorify God.

and

Ephesians 5.21 states that Christians “submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” This mutual submission in marriage means that Christian husbands and wives must respect and honor one another, acknowledge one another’s gifts, and mobilize one another’s strengths to each other’s edification.

and

Just as the emergence of sin despoiled Eden, requiring the subsequent banishment of Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:23–24), God’s design for marriage is despoiled by sin. Divorce is an evidence of this despoilment in both Christian and non-Christian marriages. We believe that the prevalence of divorce does not nullify God’s good design and purposes for marriage. Divorce has taken a withering toll on Western culture as we know it, and the evangelical church’s complicity in and frequency of divorce has sinfully demeaned what God intended to be hallowed by His people.

As Paul indicated in Second Timothy 3:2–4, an increasingly amoral society lives for itself and thus accepts the unacceptable as normative.

and

As elders we are troubled by society’s high divorce rates, the commonness of cohabitation, and reinterpretations of marriage in our time.

So, I think the minister’s point, while rather pedestrian in its wording was consistent with these positions—that Christians of this ilk are beset on all sides by the moral decay of Western Civilization/society-at-large and its “normative” influence on sexual perversions (i.e. sex outside of marriage and/or non-heteronormative sex). So, from that standpoint, what these kids were doing was taking the road less traveled. They’re “submitting themselves to God” instead of “living for themselves” like all the cool kids are doing.

Also, FYI, this particular church was founded in 1935 as an independent Christian church.

That is very odd. I have been to many weddings and I am a Christian myself and have never heard that phrase. I do get the point the minister was trying to make (like what Serenade is saying). I do also understand though why it would make you feel a little off. I personally find it to be an unnecessary comment in a wedding ceremony…

I’m a Baptist. I’ve heard that sort of idea made many places before. It is a good point in many contexts. But I find it odd that the minister at a wedding would get off on at tangent like that. I’m having a hard time imagining his working this point into the wedding.

I wouldn’t take what one minister at one wedding said as something to be noted. I don’t think as of yet, they are brain micro chipped.

In life you got to take what you want, and leave the rest.

Like everyone some have wisdom some do not.

@serenade I actually don’t see exactly how that all ties together. All Christianity believes sex before marriage is wrong. The Minister was not talking about sex before marriage and that now they can do it like bunnies.

Do you mean it is kind of a you and me against the world type thing? That the married couple needs to know forces on the outside will be trying to break them apart? Testing them?

I think the magic man is mostly right, and just chose poor wording.

To me, it sounds like he was trying to compliment the couple, all be it in a strange way, by highlighting how many people do not get married now days, as if to compliment them on their choice to marry.

Almost like a king who prepares his men for battle, by highlighting how unlikely they are to win, but that they will try anyway.

I have learned that “Christian” can mean lots of things, oddly, it does not always mean Christian.

Or perhaps the guy is just nuts.

@poisonedantidote Interesting way to look at it. I never think in terms of couples not making it or not getting married when I am at a wedding. I feel like Christians sometimes are obsessed with what other people are doing. I still like it better when the Rabbi, Priest, Minister talks about something personal he might know about the couple, and the specialness of marriage. Rather than something that souds like, “good, you resisted being like the idiots around you.”

This couple attends this church and yet nothing special about the couple specifically to make it personalized and sweet. He spoke about how they are in lust with each other (he did not use the word lust, I wish I could remember the word, but it fell on me like why the hell is he even referencing anything like this) it almost sounded like the couple has been boinking (which was odd to me again, because why is this minister even talking about sex and sexual attraction) and then he continued that now as that feeling wanes the couple needs to be able to meet the challenges of life.

Did I already mention she agreed to obey and submit? Oy.

Just the whole thing was odd to me. I guess maybe I just interoret the words wrong. I don’t understand the intent.

I’ll say this based on other weddings I’ve attended, but those comments weren’t strictly for the benefit of the couple. Among other things, weddings are celebrations of the institution of marriage, and religious weddings are a celebration of the gift of marriage by God and by whatever religion/church is bestowing it. The act of attending the wedding for probably most of the people there was as much an affirmation of their own beliefs and/or marriage as it was a celebration of the newly married couple. Among other things, I’m guessing his point was something along the lines of “look at how we can all feel good about ourselves because someone else is doing what we believed in enough to do ourselves.” (which jives with your sense about worrying about what others are doing).

Might I also add that you just said there was no reference to sex, and now you’re saying there was a reference to sex?

To circle back to your question about the outside world being against them, I suppose it’s just a sign of the times relative to how Christianity (and evangelical Christianity in particular) is highly politicized these days. Think back to Dubya’s time in office and maybe read up about how the military has kind of gone crazy with evangelizing officers. I do think it’s common (at least in Catholic ceremonies) for the priest/minister to assert the authority and primacy of the church and God over the couple as two individuals coming together. That’s kind of what you sign up for when you have a church wedding. In the same breath (and oddly), perhaps there’s an underdog ethos running through this church, much like Jesus was an underdog.

Regarding her agreement to submit, that’s also covered in the document referenced above. The woman submits, and the man sacrifices. That’s the trade.

@serenade “those comments weren’t strictly for the benefit of the couple”

Yes, this is so true. They are very much meant for other members of the congregation.

I think that minister could be a jelly and feels unhappy about the agnostic and aetheistic posts he reads here in Fluther. Lol.

Wait, what? A heterosexual couple? Marrying in a Christian church? Promising to stay together “until death do [they] part?”

I’ll say that’s unpopular and uncommon. Who does that any more, anyway?

Oh no! Not another opportunity to say, “Really I’m not one of THOSE Christians!”
Being a Christian is not supposed to be the popular or easy path because you are supposed to be passive. Turn the other cheek, If someone asks for your coat give him your sweater too, humility is supposed to be a virtue and you are supposed to put the welfare of others above your own.
The conservative movement wants to claim that they are “suffering” for the sake of Christ while really they are being bullies.
The very nature of being Christlike is to be gentle, honorable, and humble in the face of bullies so the silent majority of us just roll our eyes and cry at moments like this. We know that it is mockery for us to pretend we are suffering for our faith when in many countries people are killed and tortured for not abiding by their cultural religon.
Please don’t judge Jesus by the behavior of those who claim to follow him. They give him a bad rap.

@serenade You are right, it does seem like I contradicted myself. The minister never mentioned sex specifically. It was what he said that to me is like saying they have been having sex, but I know that is against the church, so I dismissed it as me not interpreting the language correctly. I don’t think the ministers intent was to imply the couple had been having lots of sex., but rather how I would infer his words if someone else had said them.

Basically, I think it comes down to language. I have said often each religion seems to have their own language. I don’t understand all the Christian terms and how they use them. I have brought up before that they use cult, submissive, and some other words differently than I do, so it causes a miscommunication. I kind of tuned in and out during the ceremony, because he talked about Jesus dying on the cross so much it became ridiculous to me. I was there for the couple, not for a religious lecture. I would assume for Christians it does not feel like a lecture, I completely understand that. It isn’t my religion, it is not like I have a problem sitting through a mass or going to church with someone to support them. It’s fine with me.

I think people who have said on this Q that the minister is trying to show the couple how much he thinks for the couple to take this Christian path and reinforce it was his intent.

I actually am curious to watch my wedding video. I can barely remember all that was said. I wonder if there is stuff in there that would bother me. In my mind my Rabbi did some Jewish prayers in Hebrew, interpreted them for the audience, spoke about getting to know my husband and me and told some funny stories about bumping into me where I work, also explained what the chupah and breaking the glass symbolized, we exchanged vows about or commitment to each other, did the rings and drank a sip of wine each. The very full glass of red wine freaked me out; I could imagine me spilling it on my dress. LOL. In my memory the rabbi cared about innvolving the audience and making them comfortable if they were not familiar with Jewish traditions.

Most Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Jewish ceremonies I have been to have been like this. I have not been to any other Christian Protestant weddings except one girlfriend of mine who was married by her husband’s relative who is a pastor because she accidently became pregnant, her boyfriend was not Catholic, and it became complicated to do a quick marriage in the Catholic church. She told the pastor she did not want obey in the ceremony and he agreed, but then when she was repeating after him he threw in be submissive, and literally you could hear a gasp in part of the room and we all traded looks. She was pissed.

The Church, especially the hard-line evangelical wing, cannot come to terms with the fact that the world can get along without them.

It is another subdivision of a religious organization that thinks it has a better way. It hopes to spread the word and get people to follow its rules in order to prove they work the best. To do that, they must do what @serenade has pointed out: talk to the couple and the community and let them all know they have a shared interest in behaving the same way and that there are a lot of good reasons to do that, the best of which is that it is what their deity wants.

They want everyone to feel good about choosing this covenant. They want everyone to support each other in following it. Part of that can be the “us against the world” ideology. It really helps when you feel like you are taking an unpopular vow if there are a bunch of supporters around to help you feel strong. Then you can stand up for yourself in righteousness. They may be unpopular, but they are doing the right thing and they will prevail!

It’s not just a wedding. It’s not just religion. It’s also politics. It’s not just a couple. Not just a community. It’s the whole world at stake here. Their ideology is not just about a relationship, but about how the world should be organized.

So their us against the world stance helps gird them for a lifelong battle where they will be in a minority. People will look down on them and they must all believe as strongly as possible that they are right, or they will fall from the righteous way. They may divorce. The devil will get them. All that is bad and wrong in the outside world will claim them and they will be truly lost. But stick tight to the community, and they have a chance. Everyone in the community will do the right thing and help each other do the right thing, especially in the face of all the evil intrusions by other communities and the media and music and TV and the devil knows what else.

@wundayatta I guess since I am one of 6 million in the US, I can’t understand how a group of people that make up about 25% of the population in the US (I am talking about Evangelicals, not all Christians in the US obviously) so what is that? 80 million people? Forget how many Christians overall in the US and world.

But, I get what you are saying, because to them it is like a religious war and they need to recruit.

I described it as political too when I was talking under my breath to a friend at the reception. It bothered me they brought politics into the ceremony.

I could only get the mobile version of the site you linked so I didn’t see a listing of their specific beliefs but I don’t think I’m too far off the mark in assuming that they basically have a rather strict Fundamentalist mindset (or at the very least, the Minister certainly does) and if you haven’t been around Fundies a lot, it can seem a bit strained.

The vast majority of Fundamentalists do tend to have what could be described as a “bunker mentality” of us vs. the rest of the world.

I also took note of your observation that most of the time it felt more like preaching rather than a marriage ceremony. And I’m betting that that was precisely the intention of this Minister.

To Fundies, every situation is an opportunity for preaching; it matters not whether it’s a funeral, a wedding or just a conversation.

Just keep in mind that if you were laboring under the certainty (in your own mind) that failure on your part could result in an eternal burning Hell for lost souls then you’d likely take every opportunity which presents itself.

And as misguided as it is, that is precisely what Fundamentalists fervently believe.

Now, granted, it doesn’t make being preached at during a wedding celebration any less irksome, but at least you know why.

For them, it truly is an us vs. the world mentality and we have to try to rescue as many as possible.

That’s a lot of anxiety to live with.

They do believe it’s them vs the rest of the world. It goes to the quote where Jesus said something along the lines of, “If you are not with me, you are against me.”

It’s probably the least favorite thing I’ve read that he’s said.

I used to go to church often, about 6 years ago, even doing Bible study. For the most part, it’s brainwash through repetition and exercising emotional thought often. When a society tries to decipher issues with emotions and a belief system that in fact challenges rationality through measurement of our reality, you’ll get some pretty strange results. Such is the case with this OP. Now a days, to be Christian, is to be a minority, that is how it’s being spun in my Southern Baptist church. At any rate, it’s no where as cultish as my moms Catholic church. They believe in Jesus, but they can’t directly pray to him.

What the pastor has instilled on this couple is the fact that their relationship will revolve around God and the Bible. All answers will be found in the Bible.

I don’t think you should be offended though. You were there for their ceremony. Not to challenge anyones beliefs. But if it makes you feel better, I agree with you.

@pleiades I found it offensive, but was not actually offended, because I am not easily offended if that makes sense? I also don’t care at all what that preacher says about my beliefs, because I disprove him with my happy 20 year marriage and knowing my atheist Jewish family is good, moral, and giving.

I agree it is their wedding and no one should be offended. If they are happy with what was said and the ceremony overall that is all that matters.

How are you defining cult? I assume you mean one who claims to be Christian when they aren’t. I always have a big problem with Christians calling Catholics not Christian or cultish. Catholics accept Jesus as their savior, what more really matters in Christianity? I find that sort of “offensive” also. Not Christian enough or something? They are part of the Christian family.

@Buttonstc I am empathetic to the anxiety you describe amd that basicaly doctrine commands them to take every opportunity to preach the word. I was just taken aback in a wedding ceremony. I guess because I found it odd to preach to a couple who have already commited themselves to Christ, and to use their wedding as a vehicle to try to bring more people in.

@JLeslie I’m confused as to what an atheist Jewish family is. Is this to say that some practice Judaism and others atheism?

@pleiades Many Jewish people identify as Jewish, usually calling themselves ethnic Jews, but are not religious.

I call myself a secular Jew, which acknowledges both my forebears (or how many of them there were) and my behavior.

I’m a Christian Republican and I’ve never heard that before. It does sound like the Pastor was getting a little political to me.

Secular Jew is used a lot also, I should have mentioned that.

Sometimes Pastors officiating at a wedding feel the need to preach a bit, and it sounds like he was reaching here. He booted it a bit. I wouldn’t let it bother me. Not everyone is Oscar Wilde.

Well, unfortunately people in power have the power to pass on whatever ridiculous things they believe to their underlings or flock.