What role does individualism and dislike of government interference play for dragging the United States to the bottom in terms of life expectancy over the past 30 years?

Look at the obesity levels and the violence in the US. Two really big factors.

Is it dislike of government, really? I think it is something else. I think it is right wing distrust/denial of science. Specifically it is the nexus of where science meets (and battles with) economic and or religious interests.

Recently, the forces of science denial by the religious right and the republicans have set us back a dozen years in all sorts of research: climate change, stem cell, etc.

It’s no wonder that the effect of science denial is poorer health care and lower life spans.

@elbanditoroso – If what you’re saying is true, it would mean that voters of Democrats on average have a higher life expectancy than Republican voters, right? Did anyone investigate such a correlation?

@matt, no, I disagree with your assumption. I’m speaking not on a person-by-person basis (republican individuals having shorter life spans than democrats), but rather on a nationwide political/scientific funding level.

In the US, the right wing has squelched funding for climate change research and has severely limited stem cell work until recently. There are other examples, too: Solar and alternative energy, for two examples,

As a result, the US (as a nation) has not made the national progress in solving scientific problems, and that, on a macro level, is the problem.

@mattbrowne You neglected to add the article’s speculation about the answer to your question:

The panel sought to explain the poor performance. It noted the United States has a highly fragmented health care system, with limited primary care resources and a large uninsured population. It has the highest rates of poverty among the countries studied.

We have close to 50 million uninsured. These people do not get adequate primary care and preventive care. No prenatal care. All kinds of things that one sixth of our population just doesn’t have any access to unless they are willing to bankrupt themselves.

The reason for this is that we don’t have universal health insurance. The reason for that is ideological. Which probably is related to the ideas about individualism, but more importantly, the idea that we need competition in health insurance, and that it is possible to have competition in the health care system while making it illegal to deny anyone service in a hospital.

This country does not share the rest of the developed world’s belief that the poor should be helped. Rather, most people think they are lazy, and only leaving them alone will make them work. We are not a very caring people. We do not believe in shared burdens. Everyone is on their own. So we have a very high poverty rate. We do badly on education. Our taxes our low, and we suffer because of it.

This is because we do not measure the overall value of the economy. We only measure GDP, not lost opportunity for people who lack education, housing and health insurance. All for ideological reasons. Conservatives do not believe we are all in this together. Most people can only see what’s in it for them, and don’t understand how their fates are tied together. They’d rather own guns and kill each other, than pay more taxes and help each other. Although, ironically, they do give a lot to charity. But probably a lot less than they would in taxes if they let the government manage aid for the poor.

We are a nation of people who can’t see the forest for the trees. Not enough crazy people in power. Crazy people can see the whole picture, unlike individualists, who tend to be more ADD, I would guess.

So your question is rather global, and the issues you raise are good ones. I believe you are right that ideology plays a huge role in our attitude towards health care and the health care financing and delivery systems. Perhaps this study will help people head in the direction of realizing that single payer is the only system that will help us start to achieve better results compared to other developed nations. But I’m not holding my breath.

The idea that health care is a privilege, rather than a right, exemplifies the contempt for the poor that @wundayatta described.

@wundayatta You are absolutely correct. I have had insurance coverage for my husband and I for the last 13 years.

One bill I’ve been paying is for kidney stones (3x) which was @ $3k, which was no operation or break-up with sound waves, just morphine and a plastic urine strainer.

Another medical bill is for his knee surgeries (3x), which was @5k, after insurance.

Currently we pay $300 per month for medical bills with any extra funds going to pay the current bills from his two seizures this year.

We can’t afford to use our totally crappy dental insurance for anything other than the yearly appt, which only covers the exam and once a year cleaning for free.

As the economy gets better, so will the health of some Americans. You can buy a pack of hotdogs and feed your family for $0.99 per pack of 6 hot dogs. With buns and a spoon of chili on top, add anther $2.00 to that meal cost. Total cost $3.00 plus tax.

You can’t put all the blame on the American people for being lazy or eating too much, part of the blame goes to the lawmakers who are bankrupting/ raping middle Americans.

@KNOWITALL: I’m sorry to hear about your medical bills. I wish it wasn’t like this. I spend on average $250 a month on doctor’s appointments and prescriptions, with insurance. If I did not have health insurance, I would be in very poor health and/or dead broke constantly. It would probably cut a good 15–20 years off my life expectancy to not have the care and prescriptions I need. I had to bust my ass to do well in school so that I could get a job with guaranteed health insurance. It’s just a reality of growing up sick in America. People with life threatening chronic illnesses are a huge cash cow for the health industry.

@bookish1 Sorry for you and everyone else in America too. As we saw from another Q earlier, MinnesotaCare is apparently no better for the poor girl with the painful wisdom teeth.

I don’t think people realize that real people in America die from lack of health care, and ObamaCare is dismissive of the elderly and suggest palliative care until death. Well at least that’s better than laying in your bed sick, and getting choked out by your son who wants your welfare check for drugs (real life case.)

What’s even sadder is that Americans spend REAL money taking care of their pets while people lay dying in pain. Euthenasia is okay for pets and merciful, but oh no, not for human beings who are sentient. It’s disheartening, and no wonder people just accept bad credit scores and keep their cash instead of paying their medical bills.

BTW- I’m down to under $1,000 on one bill after 6 years, down to $1400 on another med bill- we’re getting there in 2013, it just sucks that the bills are so unreasonable!

I blame the results of the stats on the obscene, immoral, and despicable mess that we call a health care system in the U.S. People die because they can’t afford medical treatment; families are on welfare because they went bankrupt due to medical costs. The number one reason cited why a potential entrepreneur won’t take the risk of leaving a job to start a new business, is the fear of being without health insurance.

I don’t think health care is a ‘right’ bestowed by the Constitution. But, as we live in the richest nation ever known, I think it’s a moral obligation to look out for one another when we are beset by tragedies beyond our ability to control. Conservatives believe that it’s not governments’ place to do that. I believe that it is necessary for government involvement because the free market and charitable world can’t do it alone. If they could, we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in right now.

Our health care costs per capita are double the next most expensive country, yet some of our measured health care results are lower than some third world countries. Proponents of free-market capitalistic health care can kiss my ass.

Healthcare has always been a problem for those who can’t afford it.

So what has changed? What makes us different from other countries, our foods. GMO’s, easily avaiable mass produced quantity over quality using wood pulp for fillers and to produce cheap easily replicated food.

Some people on this thread have stated indirectly that stupidity or ignorance is to blame for a lot of these problems the article stated an uprising of chronic diseases. Infant mortality.

Well if we aren’t getting proper nutrition our brain slowly starves making us “idiots” we crave more food because the chemicals laced in our food increase our addiction as well as our instinct for proper nutrition we eat more of it become obese and have a host of diseases that we are susceptible to.

Infant mortality, pregnant mommies feed or poison their babies when they are most vulnerable when they are forming nutrition is everything. And that means more then calorie counting and food pyramids. Are you aware of what our Infamil and other baby formulas contain. I have read some papers on them and it is quite shocking.

Side note this is off the top of my head but Coke became a big brand in the 50’s what other changes were instituted in this country food wise and how did the data in the next few years change.

Just a theory mind you.

@KNOWITALL and @bookish1 my previous post was not a slight to the sick.

I am stuck in a job i resent because of my wonderful healthcare. But it isn’t a good environment for me and is making me physically and mentally sick.

I believe I surcombed to my genetics because of my highly unhealthy americanized diet. I was awful to my body. Genes are mutuable.

I have seen improvement in health with correlation in diet it is a slow process and I am highly addicted to corn and corn syrups.

You have my empathy. Even with my great healthcare I struggle to pay for it all worry about the future and struggle with energy to live and fulfill my roles.

It is scary when your body seems like your worst enemy.

Look at the people walking on any street in europe. Look at the crowds in Japan. How amy overweight peole do ou see. How may obese?
Now look at the people in a shopping mall in the US.
I rest my case.

Government does not force food into their mouths nor make people sit on the couch watching Jerry Springer. or Maury.

@mattbrowne Everything everyone above said, plus what this question is about.

@rosehips What has happened since the 50’s is that Big Ag, along with government assistance, has met the demands of consumers for fast, easy, and cheap food. Nutritional quality has become an after thought. I do believe that it is the individuals responsibility to eat a healthy diet, but doing so requires a time commitment that not everyone can make, and some people are ignorant: they don’t realize they are nutritionally starved. I am hopeful that I can see a growing movement to become more aware of the quality of the food we eat, either by gardening or purchasing food that is locally grown at farmers’ markets, CSAs, or co-ops.

Being better food consumers is one way to reduce our burden on the health care system. But until the health care system ceases being a cash cow for the big corporations, we will continue to have second-rate health care.

Thank you @bossob I was certain there was a correlation I wasn’t sure of exact dates but everytime I went to look it up I got distracted. I might still.

GMO started after WW2 or Vietnam. I say this because the roundup ready patent was initially created as a defolliant for Japan.

I suppose the immediate effects would most likely spike in the farmers and take a few years to surface amoungst general populations. But that sort of data would be unobtainable at this point.

I am not saying GMO’s are our only problem in the US for nutrition. But I would rank them pretty high up the list. They are essentially big agriculture now. But yes health care and Big Pharma are very lucrative and have far too much political sway.

Ok forgive another post but a thought just hit.

The fundamental difference between male and females is that females reproduce. WIC is one program I can think of that caters to the poor women expectant mothers and young children. And it is probably the most nutritionally focused program. Also pregnant women are encouraged and most do stay away from drugs and alcohol and take supplements for the length of their pregnancy and often longer if they breast feed.

Young financially challenged men don’t have a reason to take breaks from their unhealthy lifestyles and aren’t offered the same advantages.

The study puts the distinction 10 years after most women are fertile. Is it arbitrary or do a bunch of men just drop dead somewhere in their 40’s. I think by that time most men and women have probably reached their peak in fiscal stability so nutrition and advantages of having to be a responsible mother caring for the nutritional needs and passing on good habits has by then leveled out considerably.

It was just a random theory I havenmt researched or thought much about so feel free to poke holes in it.

@wundayatta – You are right, but I didn’t want to copy the whole article and let jellies engage in their own speculation. Spain has almost 25% unemployed people. Lots of poor people. Spanish education doesn’t have a good reputation in Europe. Neither does their health systems. In 1937 half of the Spanish population was still illiterate. It is a very young democracy. I was so shocked to still find ‘General Franco’ street names in many towns today. I would have expected them to do worse than the US in terms of life expectancy.

@ETpro – Great question you asked. Debating with Republicans about the soul of a nation might be easier than when using the term solidarity.

I do think cultural attitudes and lifestyles play a large role. You mention seatbelt and helmet use… they’re not perceived of as “cool”. We have people come in to the Ear, Nose & Throat office reeking of cigarettes – they want a pill or surgery to make them feel better while they keep poisoning themselves. We culturally equate indulgence with happiness, and romanticize the “live fast, die young” mentality. So I agree that individualism – “it’s my life, I’ll do what I want with it” – is a major factor.

@rosehips Regarding GMOs, I agree that it’s too soon to determine the physiological effects on humans. The research in labs on rats only proves that there could be problems, and we should be watchful. The environmental effects, however, are more immediate and of great concern. The top 4 GMO products are corn, soy, beets, and canola. Anyone who eats processed foods is ingesting GMO foods.

Citizens are trying to be responsible consumers by at least demanding to know what is in their food. CA and WA had GMO initiatives, that would require GMO labeling, on their ballots last November. Support was strong until the last 2 months leading up to the election when Big Ag dumped a ton of money and mis-leading information into the campaigns. They both failed.

The initiatives were an example of citizens trying to be accountable for their health, and being squashed due to the cozy relationship Congress and the Supreme Court has with big corporations. The FDA has been quiet on the subject of GMOs, and when big corporations with bottomless pockets can strew their money around anywhere for anything they want, little battles must become big wars in order for citizens to protect themselves.

I probably sound like a broken record, but we’re in a cycle where Congress has been kowtowing to the corporations, rather than focusing on what is good for the commons. It has been ongoing for the last 30+ years, and we’re paying the price.

@bookish1 Health care is NOT a right. Why should it be? It is crazy to believe we should reward lazy people with healthcare. Poor people in the USA are lazy or terminally stupid. The only exceptions are people who are victims of wealth redistribution or people who made poor business decisions without an appropriate safety-net of savings.

@wundayatta I do not have health insurance. I do not want it. Why is health insurance desirable? Health insurance is a giant inefficiency on the system. Instead people should have to pay the full cost so that they only purchase health-care which they need instead of waking up late and going to the hospital so that they have a note from their doctor. Health insurance only causes costs to increase while services/dollar decrease.

@mattbrowne The answer is to have people pay for their own medical care. This will drive price / unit care down. There are many different ways to have people pay for their own care and (almost) any of them are preferred to our current system. Also we need to review every law / rule / regulation asking the question are we encouraging unsuccessful people to have children or punishing successful people? If we ensure the next generation is populated by the children of successful people most of our problems will solve themselves.

@muhammajelly If you don’t want health insurance, then you need to live in a different country. Because right now, if you get sick and you go to a hospital and you can’t afford to pay for it, they still have to treat you. Of course, they will find ways to give you less treatment than you need. And you will die young.

Like my uncle, who just passed away a few days ago. Because he had no health insurance, he was essentially homeless, but the hospital would only stabilize him, and then they threw him out on the street because he had no money for hospice care, which is what he needed in his last days.

Anyway, you are one of the few in this country who doesn’t value health care. Twenty years ago, when I first started studying health insurance, health care accounted for around 12% of GDP. Now it’s at 18% of GDP, and it’s expected to reach 20% of GDP by 2021. People value health more than any other thing in this economy, I’d say. This is who America is. If you don’t like it, you’d better go somewhere else, because it isn’t going to change.

I would also like to say you have a view of humanity that is just plain stupid. No one goes to the doctor just for fun. People hate going to the doctor. Read a few questions here from time to time. See how many people ask questions here and are really trying to avoid seeing the doctor? DO you like the doctor?

Nobody does recreational health care, except really mentally ill people, and they’re already sick, so they need it, anyway. The real problem is that people don’t go soon enough, and they are sicker when they get there. Health care needs to be fully insured for everyone so people will get the care they need and not use cost as a barrier to care. Personally, I hate going to the doctor. I don’t like being around sick people!

People can’t afford the care they need, and that is what drives costs higher. If people got care sooner, costs would go down because people would be healthier.

You can opt out of insurance, but you damn well better not be seeking free care in a hospital, because I don’t want to be paying for people like you, who refuse to pay their fair share of the health care burden. You think you are being responsible, but in fact it is just the opposite. Your solution is highly irresponsible. It is also inhumane, since for your solution to work, we’d have to allow hospitals to refuse care to people who can’t pay. You think people are dying in the streets now? Just wait. We’d be building morgues all over the place. But maybe you don’t think the public should pay for morgues, either? Perhaps people should just lie where they die, until someone gets tired of the smell and drags them off to the landfill?

People will pay for their own medical care the same way they pay for damaging another car in an accident when it’s their fault. And the same way means “many won’t because they can’t”. That’s why insurance makes sense.

@wundayatta
“If you don’t want health insurance, then you need to live in a different country. Because right now, if you get sick and you go to a hospital and you can’t afford to pay for it, they still have to treat you.” – So you are for kicking out all the people too poor to pay for health insurance? Or do you assert no one is too poor to pay for health insurance? Or if we “give” someone health insurance this somehow isn’t the same as giving them the health care? I am sorry but this doesn’t make any sense to me.

@mattbrowne Unlike the car accident, we could simply refuse service. Also you don’t have to have insurance car insurance in many states if you own many vehicles: http://www.dmv.org/nd-north-dakota/car-insurance.php <—25 vehicles in North Dakota. The crazy thing is why can’t any person with liquid assets above minimum coverage avoid car insurance?

@muhammajelly Oops. I mispoke. Sorry. My point is, that you are insured, no matter what. You can always go to a hospital, whether you can pay or not. The care will be provided, even if you can’t pay. So, to some degree, you are insured.

If you truly don’t want coverage, you must go to a country where they don’t have to treat you if you can’t pay.

You are insured, whether you can pay for it or not, in the US. The rest of us who have purchased insurance are paying for those who don’t have it. It drives the cost of our insurance up.

There are a lot of free riders in the US system. Now, if we passed a law saying that hospitals did not have to treat everyone, regardless of ability to pay, then you could go without insurance, and pay out of pocket, or, when you have no money, go without treatment, and my insurance costs won’t be affected.

Understand now? Sorry about the confusion.

@wundayatta Or we could make it a state-by-state issue (as the founders intended) and people could live in states with like-minded-people. Policies made only at the national level do not allow for a diverse America.