Could one of the reasons we don't have more users be the moderation?

The alternative is less moderation, fewer standards, and more questions about whether a sexually active female-bodied-person who engages in unsafe sex could possibly be pregnant.

If you want a free-for-all site, such sites abound (see Y!A, Canswerbag, etc.). Yes, they have a greater number of users. But there’s a lot of wading through shit to be done to get an answer that’s either helpful or mentally stimulating.

I think the reasons we have a small user community is the lack of publicity and that Google changed its search algorithm.

Personally, I think the level of moderation is appropriate. I have been to far too many sites where the moderation is too little and it becomes an ugly free-for-all. Insults, flaming, horrible writing and rudeness are all through those sites. I’ve left places because of poor moderation.

The maintenance of the standards here aren’t harsh, they’re just higher than many other places. New users aren’t used to that.

@HolographicUniverse – Can you tell us of a website with forums that you use that you think has better moderation than Fluther?

@Seek_Kolinahr It’s not an issue of eliminating moderation, but backing off a little. I don’t think anyone is complaining about moderation of spam. However, clearly some people would like a little more freedom on some discussions.

Equally clearly, many people are happy with the current level of moderation, and would like to crack down even harder. I wonder what would happen if everyone was banned that someone else wanted banned? I know I’d be banned. Probably because of my opinions on any number of topics, but in particular because of my opinions about moderation here. Wouldn’t that be ironic? Banned because you don’t like banning.

The rules are written out and I feel pretty clear. Fluther isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but there are other sites that are more slack. I agree with @tedibear about the ugliness in other sites. Personally, I think Augustlan is pretty fair in moderation.

Some people will come on here sometimes to simply start a fight and sit back and laugh. I like fluther because it has grown in the past few years and I have seen this behavior happen less and less.

The site is more about resolving real issues and simply learning new things. On occasion we do have fun and joke about but not in an insulting or abusive way.

Oh God, please no. I don’t want to get dragged into this mess.

The main reason is the bad SEO. Recently, we’ve tried to do a little bit of work on that, but nothing has changed yet.

I don’t think the system is perfect @wundayatta, there’s a reason I gave up modding, but it’s better than most. I’m sure I get on plenty of people’s nerves on this site, but at least if I follow the rules, my posts stay up. I don’t have any desire to call people names or go off-topic when the original poster wants to keep things focused. I just call that good manners. Unfortunately, this is the Internet, and manners and common sense don’t exactly abound. So we enforce them with moderators.

And can I just reiterate how happy I am that most of my debate posts aren’t answered with “omg atiest u r stupid an r goin to hell lol”, or even backed up with “omg xtians r stupid lol”.

Nah, I think it is ok. I don’t agree with it sometimes but it has never been over the top as far as I can tell.

@Seek_Kolinahr I think there’s room for reasonable people to disagree about this concept of going “off topic.” I prefer a conversation that moves and is allowed to move. The most interesting things are what the conversations bring up that are not necessarily related to the topic of the question.

And I have a basic philosophical difference here. I think the question belongs to the answerers, not the questioner. I don’t think the questioner is all-knowing, and they can’t know when they will get a useful answer. If they did, they wouldn’t need to ask the question. So you have to let things move, even into recipes, because sometimes that is what it takes to get the good answer to rise to the top.

I know if it frustrating, but people have to trust the process. It works if people are free. It stays ordinary and doesn’t get very interesting if you enforce it to being on topic. The current philosophy harms the discussion. But then, maybe it’s not about the discussion for the site. All I know is that’s why I am here.

There have been one or two “bad eggs” on the mod-squad in my time here, inevitable really, but on the whole i’m perfectly fine with it & genuinely couldn’t care less if a post of mine is removed or not. Easy come, easy go.

Adapt or die. If you are not satisfied with your experience here, then you are free to leave at any time. It’s that simple. There have been quite a few new users over time that breeze into Fluthertown with notions that they are somehow “above it all” and behave not unlike the classic new employee that comes to work on their first day and decides they are somehow in a position to reform everything and everyone in the workplace.
There has, infact, been quite an influx of new users in recent weeks IMO.

I have no complaints and if I did I would quietly take my leave instead of complaining.
Nobody cares, really they don’t. If you don’t like being part of this remuda get along little doggie.

I’m sure it is one of many reasons why some people leave this site.

For example, the main moderator recently archived a thread only because she was displeased, with no regards to how the users felt I was disappointed to see that thread closed. It’s unfortunate that a user was called abrasive for stating an unpopular opinion. I agreed with the person who was supposedly abrasive. Even though I love this site there are a few things I don’t like about it, and one of those things happened to be mentioned on that thread that was archived. Instead of listening to the complaints and having discussion about it, some users got defensive and started with the name calling, flame bait and personal attacks. So typical. I think that’s why the thread was closed. It wasn’t the fault of the OP. I stood up for the person who I thought was being treated unfairly and someone sent me a lovely pm. It read ”Muah. Now fuck off.”

Sure, it’s just the internet until it’s something you care about. It’s a bit hypocritical when you preach about needing a thick skin here, but you can’t take a little criticism? (that’s my opinion anyway. I still like this site, but that thread put a bad taste in my mouth.)

@jonsblond Really? What a fucking liberty, I bet they threw their toys out of bed too, crass & bloody pathetic!

@ucme Yeah. I laughed when I read it. Very childish. lol

Well, if anyone wants to include me in the accusations, I request that you mention my username. Otherwise, I’m just going to ignore it.

@jonsblond Yeah, i’d have chuckled too, they must have a real hard-on for this place, or an unhealthy obsession.

Is your goal here to start as many arguments as you can?
That thread was out of hand. It should have been closed.

I would like to point out that @HolographicUniverse is asking a question and is being civil at this point. Are we not allowed to ask about the site and community without being attacked for it?

@jonsblond
I agree, haha an example of that is @Coloma ‘s answer and Adirondackwannabe’s answer as well. Users much rather say “conform or die” and criticize our criticisms rather than acknowledging the flaws that bother us. As I said this is a great site but the moderation and users can be a turn off (just like “canswerbag” in that regard)
Speaking of which…
@Seek_Kolinahr
I think Fluther does a great job of filtering out the bullshit, one of it’s strong points is the moderator’s ability, and preference, to assure that threads remain information based (The exchange of knowledge and information upon this site and the caliber of members is grade A) I must admit I have only been to Answerbag with less moderation but it wasn’t awful because of that. It was awful because the majority of users are dimwits and it’s impossible to extrapolate information or partake in stimulating conversations. The moderators would rather have a high level of inane activity rather than a low amount of substance.. Has nothing to do with allowing spam to run freely.

@tedibear
I haven’t tried many Q&A sites so sadly I cannot, I suppose it’s in that space that I could be wrong however i’m not suggesting changing the moderation but asking could it be a problem
It could be for some and not to others.

Personally I don’t find it that bad but I do acknowledge that it can be very agitating, as per the last few times. I think it certain areas it’s too stagnant and inflexible so it can be frustrating.
Again just something I find displeasing, much like how users give lurve and how they behave

@PhiNotPi
Id like your opinion from a moderator’s POV

@AshLeigh
Certainly not, I absolutely adore this site, there is nothing wrong with inquiring about things you see as flaws. This isn’t to bash fluther but it’s amazingly group minded to think that our site doesn’t have cons, that’s akin to a patriot thinking America is perfect.

@HolographicUniverse One of the moddable “no-nos” is poor writing standards. The “Dimwits” who post inane idiocy with ridiculous grammar don’t last long here, because the posts are removed. Call it censorship, call it snobbiness, I’m just glad I don’t have to deal with it.

I’m at Fluther because it’s a community of reasonably to highly intelligent people who provide stimulating discussion on a variety of topics, many of which appeal to me. I can go anywhere on the internet to find half-wits and no-wits, trolls and phishing schemes. Fluther is the Q&A equivalent of a Mensa meeting: it’s not that we hate stupid people, we just don’t need them around all the time. And I have no problem refusing to apologise for that. Do I wish a few of the rules were different? Sure. Am I happy here anyway? Absolutely.

Let the rotten tomatoes fly.

We all actually have the choice between this site, with its firm but (I think) fair moderation, and the Wild Wild West of sites like Sodahead.com, Y!A and Answerbag.com. I’ve voted by being here and not at one of the many anything goes social Q&A sites. I’m guessing most of you have done the same. But it’s perfectly legitimate, from time to time, to review the moderation standards. To much can spoil the fun just as certainly as not enough.

I’m not sure what the archived post in question was. Generally, if a question doesn’t meet quality standards, the person who asked is given ample opportunity to edit and redeem their question. Want to share more about this particular one, @HolographicUniverse

What he said :¬)

@HolographicUniverse I think it would be great if we could all stop bitching and complaining about how much moderation is exactly right. There is no way that all members are going to agree on this – we each have a personal opinion, and it is unlikely that that is going to change.

But the point is – it doesn’t matter how each of us feels about the moderation on Fluther. Fluther doesn’t owe anyone here an explanation for its structure or policies. Fluther is not going to change, especially now that the founders have moved on to bigger and, well… other… things. No amount of questions about the modding policies is going to change the way in which it is done. It’s not.

So, as so many others have said before, the choice that is left to individual users is whether or not Fluther is right for them. Do you like it here? Then stick around. Do you find it a continual annoyance, and feel misery every time you log in? Maybe you want to look around and find a different place to hang your hat.

I do enjoy Fluther. I don’t agree with every modding decision, but that’s ok. I don’t have to. On the balance, my time here is enjoyable, so I stick around. Others find that the balance tips towards unpleasant, and they leave after some time.

I think that if you’re still here, you must, on the balance, enjoy it. That tipping point hasn’t been reached for you. But I guess the part I don’t understand is… if you know that your questions can’t change the modding practices, and they bother you so much, and your repeated questions about the same things are making most users exasperated with you, why do you keep asking them? Don’t you have questions about things that aren’t related to how much Fluther sucks?

I think it’s okay. I have been told by a few people that PM’s are not always private though which concerns me some, although a moderator denied it. Other than privacy issues, it seems to be fine but I haven’t been here a long time.

@KNOWITALL If the moderator did not tell you that the community manager can see pms, then they were being disingenuous.

Another possible reason we don’t have more users might be the Johnny-one-notes.

@wundayatta She did not.

@jonsblond I think the main issue that most people have with the OP is that he joined Fluther 9 months or so ago, but only really became active two weeks ago, and in these two weeks, he’s really done nothing besides complain about the rules and moderation. That’s an awful lot of complaining for someone who claims to “adore” this site. I think when jellies see one member post back to back to back questions that sound a bit whiny, their natural response is, “If you hate it so much, then why the fuck are you here?”

To actually answer the question, I agree with @marinelife.

@glacial
If you read above I mentioned having no desire to change the moderation. If you read the question I asked could it be why we have a low amount of users.
Though, I will state again, there is no reason that healthy criticism is not welcome, if you are running a business and you can’t acknowledge your flaws you will never fix them. In addition to that, how egotistical would it be to only allow positive feedback and to insult the members who dare oppose?

We are all here out of freedom and obviously I enjoy this site (as I’ve said above) I simply gave my OPINION on different aspects that I view as “flawed” (which may not be the case for others)
I’m not asking for change, simply asking for feedback.

@Seek_Kolinahr
I agree
Obviously most remain here because of it’s advantages, many of which you’ve stated, but I would think that mistakes are bound to happen in the moderation when only one or two people are making the decision. Another thing, don’t think that highly intelligent individuals are the only ones who stay, many of which I’ve referred here left due to like reasoning. Even you just stated you wish a few rules were different, well that’s part of what this discussion is about…. I don’t find anything wrong with, respectful, criticism

@ETpro
Well that particular thread was archived because several members began to criticize augustlan, not much to do with the OP. The question was “are messages monitored on fluther” (on my page)
But yes I agree 1000% as, as you know, that is similar to why I’ve joined here.

@WillWorkForChocolate he’s really done nothing besides complain about the rules and moderation. That’s not true. He has participated in many discussions that have nothing to do with Fluther.

@jonsblond I’ve seen him on a few other threads, yes, but I meant that three out of four questions of his in these two weeks have been complaints about the way the site works.

@HolographicUniverse Do you have any specific suggestions as to how to improve the moderation while preserving the positive aspects that make us actually want to be here? Criticism is all well and good, but it doesn’t actually solve anything.

Bear in mind there are seven users with Mod powers. Not simply one or two.

@WillWorkForChocolate
Hello again ;-)
haha hardly whining, believe me I would spare you and I the time to both type these posts and respond to, users simply seem disgruntled because I’ve inquired about topics they disagree with me on… It’s rather childish

For instance asking does favoritism play a role here (Yes)
Are messages monitored on fluther? (No, I mean… Sometimes, I mean Yes, but only by augustlan)
Could moderation be the reason why we don’t have more members? (Oh you complain too much)
None of these questions are inflammatory, they get out of hand because of the rude responses.
Also they’re part of what I noticed 9 months ago

@WillWorkForChocolate He has been respectful with those questions. What’s wrong with that? Some new users are fascinated with this site and have questions about it. We don’t have to answer every question asked. The people who can’t take criticism are the ones who are whining and making @HolographicUniverse‘s questions worse than they need to be.

@HolographicUniverse No, they’ve gotten out of hand because after people answer you, you argue and argue and argue and beat it into the ground until people get fed up with your attitude.

@jonsblond the jellies who are frustrated with the OP are the same jellies who have repeatedly taken two veteran jellies to task for repeatedly bitching about how the site works. And it seems to a lot of us that the OP could easily PM the community manager when he has honest to goodness questions about the site, but instead he seems to enjoy getting people riled up.

Plus, it didn’t endear him to many jellies when he was acting like a crybaby because of what comments were getting lurve. “Why did soandso get a GA for that? Why don’t I get more GAs? Why did that comment get three GAs?” We tried to answer him honestly but he started sounding belligerent and argumentative, so then we just got fed up.

@Seek_Kolinahr
I don’t think it necessarily “needs” improvement, it could be a little more relaxed to new members who are adjusting to the site.. Many join and the first thing they say is “grammar Nazi”, “my post was removed”, “the older members are rude”, “red headed Hitler” etc.
Instead of informing them, as alot of users do not read the terms of use, they are shunned for novice mistakes. I think it can be too stern when it’s not needed (and by no means am I suggesting a free for all site with no structure) but that’s only a thought…

Oh and by the way @Adirondackwannabe i’ve been working on it, I find it hard to type while i’m checking for polyps.

This red headed Hitler requests that everyone remain polite here. Just a reminder.

For reference, this is the thread I archived. Not because I was being criticized, of course, but because it had dragged on forever and no resolution was in sight. The thread is available for everyone to see, as it hasn’t been removed…only closed to new comments.

I will bow out of this discussion at this point.

@WillWorkForChocolate
My friend
Responding to posts hardly qualifies as arguing but when I do disagree I’ve made sure to inform you why… You simply got fed up because one didn’t say “ok you’re right”, if you had made a convincing argument I would have agreed with it.

In regards to the lurve
I was actually correct and I’ve witnessed it on regular threads where “popcorn is deelish” gets GA but an informative post does not, that’s being a crybaby for finding fault in that? Spare me the nonsense

@Seek_Kolinahr Criticism is all well and good, but it doesn’t actually solve anything. It doesn’t solve anything? What is constructive criticism?

@WillWorkForChocolate What I have learned from this is how we all see things differently. I was also one of the people who have repeatedly taken two veteran jellies to task for repeatedly bitching about how the site works. I’m not afraid to call it how I see it. But I don’t see the current questions as bitching. I feel the OP is being treated unfairly for asking how this site works. I’m not alone. A few others feel the same as I do.

@jonsblond Yes. Constructive criticism includes suggestions for improvement. I have yet to see one from the OP. Which is the entire purpose for my post.

From your article: ”Unlike general criticism that is negative, a constructive analysis, as the title implies, builds someone up. It identifies at least one problem and gets a person to think about what caused the issue. It also invites her to find possible solutions to whatever is going wrong.”

The only thing that has ever made me want to leave is the verbal attacks that follow an unpopular opinion. I consider an ‘attack’ is when more than two people who share the same opinion gang up on another user with a different opinon. Usually at that point I either quit or it turns into a non-constructive argument, which frankly gets old quickly for me.

@Seek_Kolinahr
Scroll up a little.
@jonsblond
You mentioned how we all see things differently, I agree however it seems as though many here are unwilling to accept that . Just like someone may find the moderation fair, another may find fault in it, the problem here is that i’m viewed as a pot stirrer for expressing the latter view (it’s rather egocentric)

@HolographicUniverse No, we explained why that happens, and we explained why you weren’t getting many GAs, but you didn’t get it and didn’t get it and didn’t get it… and just kept ooooooooooooooooon arguing about it. Apparently you still don’t get it, so fuck this.

@jonsblond I adore you, so I will just very respectfully disagree. I don’t think he’s being sincerely inquisitive; I think he’s getting off on poking people.

@WillWorkForChocolate I think he’s getting off on poking people. If he is, is it best to poke back? Isn’t it best to ignore that type of behavior if you want it to stop?

I still want to have lunch with you. :)

@HolographicUniverse If we relax standards on new users, at what point do we drop the bomb of “Oh, by the way, we’d appreciate you not spelling like a Kindergartener anymore”?

And in the meanwhile, the site gets that much more lax, the standards that much more lazy, and eventually we have a shit-ton of people who now think we have no standards, and refuse to follow them.

No. Standards are called “standards” for a reason. They’re standard. Like a uniform. Everyone has the same rules, for the benefit of all.

@Seek_Kolinahr
You misinterpret that greatly
It’s fairly easy to point out users who don’t fit standards, you sound as if everyone who disagrees with the moderation/standards are some text talking, Medgar Evans educated, entertainment junkies who should be on Facebook rather than fluther… This is not the case. Many of users who are heavily modded are unaware of the standards or may not be as grammatically astute as others. Relaxing the moderation, not necessarily these standards, helps new members to adapt who are otherwise turned off by how stern we are. Noone suggests that we say “fuck our principles” so now Fluther can become infested with the trolls and morons from other sites, but simply that in some areas we are extreme.

@WillWorkForChocolate
By “didnt get it” you may be right, because I don’t understand how the way some members lurve is acceptable. The responses I got, and you’re free to look back, were basically saying “yes we give GA to favorites, why does it concern you?” It was justifying the behavior more than anything else (except in regards to composition which i’m at a disadvantage on a touchscreen)

@HolographicUniverse So, ease up on policing grammar, but we’re going to instruct each individual user on how to distribute lurve?

Are you trying to provide users with more freedom or less? The mods don’t know who is lurving whom where. There is a list of how much lurve a user gives/gets from each member, but that is used to stop people gaming the system (signing up for multiple account to lurve themselves). It doesn’t tie in to questions and answers.

I’ll lurve what I want to lurve, for my own reasons. My lurve habits aren’t your business. That’s why we don’t have a list of “likes” like Facebook does.

@Seek_Kolinahr
Haha, well hold on.. I didn’t say that exactly
But I find it ironic that one has more freedom to give lurve than to make a spelling error, apparently these standards are exclusive to grammar (Which is a point I was attempting to convey on that particular thread) How is it acceptable to give lurve to a sarcastic comment over a genuinely informative one?
Anywho
Not necessarily ease up on policing grammar, just be more understanding of new members (again I could be very wrong and that’s why it’s only an opinion in regards to the membership quantity)

@HolographicUniverse Dude. Lurve has no value. What’s the big deal?

one has more freedom to give lurve than to make a spelling error Apples and oranges – what do the two possibly have to do with each other? Lurve is an expression of approval, appreciation, a vote, however you’d like to view it. Spelling rules are rules.

Ask what you want, I’ll probably just ignore them from here on out since you never seem to accept the answers or be influenced in your opinion. But since you’ve been made aware that the site is not at all likely to change (since the founders have moved on), the fact that you keep asking these questions sure seems like pot-stirring to me (there’s a ruder term that I’m avoiding).

Lurve is private by necessity. It’s a way to cheer someone on. The equivalent of applause in a theater. Do you make note of who laughed at which of Jon Stewart’s jokes on The Daily Show? no. Seriously. I don’t even know why this is a discussion.

We are more understanding to users with a good excuse: English as a Second Language, for instance. We’ll let grammar slide, as long as the meaning is clear. If the meaning isn’t clear, yes, it is moderated. I’m thinking in particular of a post where someone asked about a couch made of kid. Sure, he was probably thinking of goat leather, but the meaning was unclear, and the first response to the question said “They’re better than the ones made of nannies”. So the OP didn’t get what he was looking for at all. We sent it back for editing, to clear up the meaning. The OP never altered the question, so it remains in limbo. Conceivably, the OP could still come back and clarify his intent, and the question would be reinstated.

I do not have a problem with the moderation here at all and I don’t see why people make such a fuss about it.. In four years I can only remembering being moderated twice and I’m not exactly Einstein so It’s really not that difficult to stick to the guidelines. There are plenty of Q&A sites that aren’t modded but I having checked out a few of those sites I am choosing to stay where the standards are slightly higher.

@syz and @Seek_Kolinahr
Can you answer this question for me? Why, exactly, do we have such standards in grammar?

Seriously? Seriously??

Shall I quote from any of a dozen prior posts? Did you read them?

You’ve got a group of volunteers moderating the site; if you want fairness and consistency, then you either enforce standards or you enforce nothing.

There’s no possible way to set guidelines for any possible “middle ground” (one lower case “i” is fine, 3 is too many, countries must always be capitalized, but apostrophes are only necessary on Tuesdays and Thursdays). Grammar rules are (for the most part) unambiguous.

@HolographicUniverse Because the creators of the site want it that way.

@HolographicUniverse: So ease up on standards for new users, and then at what point do the standards start becoming enforced? After a week? After a month? After 6 months? How do you police that? What’s the black and white on that one? What about Jellies who will then say “I joined two months ago but only come on once a week?” or something like that? How do you set the standards for that? So it’s simple the way it is: use proper English and grammar or get modded.

Writing in a clear and understandable way requires not only standard grammar but proper usage also (that’s using the right word in the right place) and punctuation to demonstrate clarity rather than decorative or artistic skill.

(It’s continues to mean “it is.” Some of us care.)

Because not ppl no understandds, grammar is bad confusing other ppl is nonsense and, Sometimes perhaps meaning rather skewed confusing to understand expecially when trying to appear intelligent, and smart and stuff, feathers nonsense can be rather not make sense

@jonsblond I still totally want to have lunch with you, too! Mexican? Italian? Chinese?

@WillWorkForChocolate That’s some of your best writing ever!

I got a PM from a mod about my text speak not being acceptable. I didn’t think it was rude at all, I quit and it’s all good.

Note to self: learn text speak. Annoy more people.

/me kicks @wundayatta in the shins

Ahem. If Daloon et al piss me off any more I’m quitting.

If you ever quit I’ll kick you in the shins, too.

@syz and others
I asked why we have such standards for a reason, obviously it serves a purpose in clarity, understanding and communication (all components of meaningful exchange on our information based site) I agree
That being said why don’t we exhibit the same standards in posting content? That was in regards to the lurve, if lurve is a means of applause (@Seek_Kolinahr) then why would snide remarks, jokes and uninformative posts be applauded (most of the time by favorites)
@jca
Keep in mind that when I made this post it did not necessarily pertain to grammar when I said “moderation”. Though to use that as an example, if you read above, many new users are bombarded with heavy mod without clear understanding of our standards.
That simple. But a little more on grammar
I often use the example
It’s like someone asking what’s the neurophysiological affect of trazodone on a non depressive person.
One person answers with perfect English “Well I honestly don’t know, i’m not a doctor” and receives 4 GAs without removal
The other gives a more detailed response “it does this, that, inhibiting that area, blocking transmitters yada yada” but only receives 1 or 2 GA for misspelling a few words, funny as it sounds this happens (most of the time with older members) I simply feel that is a misplaced priority

@HolographicUniverse Are you psychic? Seriously. Because no one knows who lurves whom where. No one. So your “most of the time by favourites” remark is completely unfounded.

Yes, people have favourites. Obviously. And people applaud what they want to applaud because they want to. That’s why. Because it was thought-provoking. Or funny. Or because it’s the poster’s birthday, or because they have a nice-looking avatar. But no one gets paid on their lurve, so who cares?

@HolographicUniverse: There’s a section that explains what the rules are (i.e. proper English, no text speak, etc.).

I’m distributing lurve as we speak. Don’t tell anybody.

(random lurve being distributed)

@jca I lurved you twice. I can do that.

I always distribute Lurve, even though I’m rarely “present” here

I’m feeling like we need a pancake party after all this.

“Tainted lurve, whoooaaa, tainted lurve. Don’t touch me please, I cannot stand the way you tease.”

I usually lurve everyone who answers my question. Just because they took the time to do so.

Passes around pancakes for all

I definitely have anti-favorites. Least favorites? Nah, I like anti-favorites.

And to answer your original question, the moderation probably does negatively affect membership numbers in that those who are too intellectually lazy to actually compose legible questions, professional spammers, and trolls (yep, there’s that word!) don’t stay.

I have not yet read this entire thread, but I will. I like the moderation here. The site is clean and free of spam. The level of debate is higher than most other Q&A sites. Most users are here to genuinely help.

We lost a lot of traffic when Google changed the algorithm. Simply put, Fluther turns up in fewer searches.

As it was explained to me, proper punctuation and grammar can keep you out of trouble.

For instance without the proper information you could find yourself in a very sticky situation if you were told to go help your Uncle Jack off the elephant and were not clear on the correct syntax.

The case of the lurve is in what it represents, that’s all… How do you emphasize on spelling emphasize correctly but don’t really care how a question is answered?
@syz
In response to one of your modded answers, not pot stirring, simply sharing an opinion (one that has been misinterpreted)
You see users have a tendency here to attack someone for criticizing something they enjoy, like Ravens fans getting angry for me calling them mediocre
This is where the conversation turns yet i’m accused of being called a pot stirrer, I am not guilty of bashing your opinions but rather disagreeing with them. Above many of my suggestions were taken out of context and misinterpreted without the opportunity of clarification. I said I find flaws in the moderation, those who don’t get offended and then try tell me an opinion is wrong haha

I’m pretty sure we’ve all got favorites and anti-favorites, but for newbies it seems very black and white. Ask the Q, get answers, but I think sometimes it goes beyond that even for long-term users.

I think i’m going to thank myself for that response

Who’s offended?

An opinion can absolutely be wrong, if it’s based on a misunderstanding. We’re here to discuss our opinions. Please be reminded: You brought it up, and literally asked how we feel about your opinion.

What was that noise? I heard it again. Clique There it is again. Clique

Must be the Mensa club members fastening their seat belts getting ready for their next ride.

@bkcunningham Tell us how you really feel. ^_^

@gailcalled Put it very eleoquently: “Writing in a clear and understandable way requires not only standard grammar but proper usage also (that’s using the right word in the right place)...”

It’s not just spelling and punctuation that are important. What I had tried to explain on the question about “Why don’t I get more GAs” is that word usage is incredibly important. I went through a lot of your comments and they were difficult to understand because of your use of the wrong words. They weren’t misspelled, they were wrong. That is why I asked if English is your second language.

If @gailcalled had used a lot of words incorrectly in her post, no matter how correctly the words were spelled, my brain would see it as:

“Writing in a feathers and understandable taco requires not only liquid grammar but equine usage also (that’s verbing the right boobies in the right peppermint)...”

My brain would see it in such a nonsensical manner because improper word usage turns a proper sentence into nonsense.

Yay! Boobies!

//( o Y o )\\ Verb the right boobies, zen.

O em gee!

@zensky Nice, a way around text speak!

“An opinion can absolutely be wrong, if it’s based on a misunderstanding”
Surely the irony is not lost?
The opinions expressed here are many I simply disagree with, because you are in the majority it does not mean that you are correct, you seem to feel that you are simply because you do not identify with the differences I’ve expressed.

@WillWorkForChocolate
I state yet again, when I said “moderation” that did not pertain to grammar by itself. Furthermore, in regards to lurve, I acknowledged your point above.. literally have nothing else to say on that

@zensky: You can lurve me till the sun comes up.

@bkcunningham Ha! That was really clever and cute! :D

@HolographicUniverse Dude, I was referring to when you asked why we have grammar standards. <facepalm>

@jca That sounds dirty… and fun.

@HolographicUniverse People here tend to try to change your opinion rather than simply agree to disagree, it’s actually one of the things I like about it as opposed to other sites.

You’re right though, that saying something a hundred times or even through a hundred other users still doesn’t make you correct, it just shuts down communication.

Exhibitionist award alert.

@Hawaii_Jake good answer

@syz above
I would say that many people are too lazy to focus on grammar itself, I may be doing a few things at once and misspell a word, use the wrong vocabulary or not proofread
Not in a conscious effort to be misleading, not because they are intellectually incapable of participating here (that would be insulting) but alot of the time they’re not used to proper grammar being priority, but rather the content of their posts
Now I’ve said before, and what seems to be ignored, is that I agree is that proper grammar is highly important yet I feel the content, in certain areas, should be primary (do not misinterpret that as me defending poor grammar)

So when do we start swappin’ recipes?

Personally, I believe that our slow member sign up has to do with how hidden away we are on the Internet. We’re a small community, not a big one like AssBag or Yahoo Answers. I think we get way less visits from new people than those other big places. I think this alone is the biggest reason as to why we don’t have so many members. Before, when Google didn’t hate us, there was a much bigger flow here.

Granted though, the rules and standards here are a bit strict, especially for spelling. This will, of course, turn off a few people. Now obviously the moderation enforces this, but otherwise I don’t think the moderation, as is, is responsible for people not joining, or staying.

Now Fluther does have that whole tight knit thing going on, and it might be hard for members to fit in and stay. Frankly, let’s admit it; if you’re a conservative, or a Christian, people are going to jump down your throat for some of your opinions. However, if I were to blame someone for that, I’d blame the community itself; in that respect the moderation has nothing to do with it. They do a good job, and even if things seem strict, well just look at me; I go around the radar and sidestep the security lights constantly, and basically I say whatever the fuck I want on here lol. The ropes are a bit tough to learn, but once you do you’ll find that the moderation has very little to do with the spirit of Fluther itself, and you’re free to say whatever you will as long as the rules are respected. But to come back to my answer, I really think the major problem is that Fluther doesn’t do very good on search results, so obviously we’re not likely to be easily found, when compared to other big places.

Which I do not believe will ever be rectified any time soon, since Fluther is basically left to fend for itself in limbo, at least until the owners decide to work on it again. (hell, half of our gat dank awards don’t even work lol)

I agree with @Coloma and many others on this thread… take it or leave it. It’s the same as any movie, TV series, restaurant, political or religious belief, person or for that matter Fluther comment you don’t care for or agree with. There are plenty of others out there to try. Personally, I think the mod level here is just fine.

@HolographicUniverse

My opinion is that hot dogs are the best food ever because they’re made with all-natural ingredients.

In actuality, there’s a lot of fake chemical crap in the vast majority of hot dogs.

This opinion is based on a misunderstanding, and could probably do with some revision. Now, hot dogs might still be the best food ever, but the reason won’t be because they’re all-natural. But it will take a bit of exploration to come to that conclusion.

It helps to be Jewish or Gay, too.

@HolographicUniverse Yes, but OMFG! What a few of us have tried to explain, multiple times, which you’re obviously still not getting is that if you use terrible grammar and the wrong words in your post, no one will understand the content of your post, so they’re going to ignore it. You want the content of your post to matter, I get that, but no one will understand the content if it doesn’t make sense. That’s why we have such high writing standards, so the content will be understood and people will want to read it.

^^^Or feline.

2 thumbs up for Augustlan. The job she does does not limit the number of users. It does improve the quality of the frequent contributors.

@Symbeline
Your answer is the kind I expected from many others here, thanks for being reasonable
You say google doesn’t like Fluther, why is this? I’ve recently searched material on google and came across a fluther page inadvertently, I suspected that it was because we have such a low amount of membership the database isn’t as large which obviously affects the SEO
I would blame low membership on unreasonably strict guidelines and, as you pointed out, the community itself (which I mentioned in the OP)
@WillWorkForChocolate
That’s understood but i’m not referring to posts that are so bad they are incomprehensible, you seem to be generalizing. You are willing to stop reading a post entirely because they misuse a word? What good does this do? As I mentioned, I’ve read incredibly worthless answers with articulate composition as well as those slightly more flawed that were much more valuable.

@Seek_Kolinahr
The same could be applied to your opinion could it not? ;-)
You seem to be writing off those who disagree with certain aspects of the site as incapable individuals, a mistake by large.

I am writing off no one.

Again, disagree all you want, just be prepared to offer a suggestion to remedy your imagined problem.

And if you cannot offer a viable remedy, you are free to a) deal with it, or b) take your custom elsewhere.

@HolographicUniverse Yeah that was explained to me before, but I don’t quite remember how it works anymore. The Fluther Google thing. Our site got taken down from some Google feature, making it so that unless you’re real specific in your searching, (which can, of course, be done by accident) we won’t ever appear on the first pages. (as we did before) And I remember that as soon as that got in effect, the flow here came down to a trickle FAST, and drastically.

Although I seem to recall Auggie telling us we were no longer on Google’s blacklist, but I might be wrong.

That’s the gist of it, but since I don’t quite recall the issue here, hopefully somebody can explain it better than me. But the whole Google thing IS responsible, in a big way.

@Seek_Kolinahr
Actually I offered a “remedy” above that you dismissed out of disagreement
It’s not an “imagined problem”, it’s a problem not many notice, which is also fine, but remember not everyone may see it as such. I’m all for keeping true to preserving the dignity of Fluther but also realize the disadvantages involved… Sadly many here don’t see an issue with the issue but see an issue in my posts.

Read for context. I didn’t say it’s an imaginary problem. It’s an imagined problem. That is, you perceive it to be a problem. Some don’t. And you didn’t offer a remedy. You suggested we ignore the rules for newcomers, then failed to explain further when pressed to defend that position.

The guidelines are unreasonably strict? Are you fucking kidding me? Well, thank God for that, otherwise I’d be participating in some bullshit, free-for-all website that was full of whiny, ignorant trolls.

<bangs head against wall twice more, then runs away screaming>

@Seek_Kolinahr
Hmm maybe i’m dense as my memory is a bit foggy but I don’t recall suggesting we ignore the rules for newcomers. I said we can be too stern on newcomers (which we can be) Didn’t fail to explain so much as you failed to acknowledge my proposition. Furthermore we were taken off topic a little

@WillWorkForChocolate Why don’t you just walk away (from this thread)? :)

I scrolled down immediately, without reading one letter; I guess it is modbashpalooza?

@Mama_Cakes I’m running away. Until I trip over my shoelaces. Then I’ll crawl.

@rebbel This one would make a circus look like a funeral.

You said:
”it could be a little more relaxed to new members who are adjusting to the site..”

And I responded:
If we relax standards on new users, at what point do we drop the bomb of “Oh, by the way, we’d appreciate you not spelling like a Kindergartener anymore”?

You never answered. Thus the subject was dropped, and your argument dismissed.

I fail to see how not moderating newcomers isn’t equal to ignoring the rules for newcomers.

@Symbeline It still seems odd to me that you all know that people treat others poorly, in reference to your “conservative and Christian” comment, and others on grammar and mods, so why wouldn’t you fix that? Or even try rather than finding it all amusing and telling new people they can just leave?

I’ve seen you all talking about why more people aren’t here or joining, or asking more questions. This particular Q is interesting to me because of the responses and those reasons.

@WillWorkForChocolate
You see, that type of attitude doesn’t allow for progress, you’re incredibly closed minded an egocentric. You seem to think that an opinion that differs from yours is either extreme or moronic
Believe or not we can be unreasonably strict, this is coming from a guy who joined this site because of it (but it doesn’t inhibit me from trying to view things collectively)
Haha it’s funny symbeline mentioned conservatives not being liked

@rebbel It’s more like I came to your house and started wiping my manure-covered boots all over your floors, while telling you the best way to clean your carpets.

Or if I were a reporter for the New York Times and kept insisting that I didn’t need any editing.

@Seek_Kolinahr
No it’s more like me coming to your house and cleaning those boots.
Also you took “relax” as meaning “ignore”, not the case.

You still haven’t explained how you would implement this new policy.

No.

Here is my two cents worth.

@gailcalled
Or a reporter from the new York times reporting a story and you keep editing them before they could finish
I do hope you are an English teacher for a living, that’s really the only thing I’ve seen you contribute in posts :-)

French, actually. She can correct your abysmal grammar in at least two languages.

Or a reporter from the New York Times, flying to the Netherlands to visit me, with his shoes full of menure, staining my carpet?

@Seek_Kolinahr, @Adirondackwannabe and @gailcalled Thanks for clarifying!
I declare myself gone from this thread.

Mods rule. (See what I did there?)

^^^ Still showing off, I see, and making excellent puns in a language that is not your own.

So annoying.

I think I answered that question, and at the time I did think it was a difficult question to answer. Since I had no idea if she was pregnant or not. I am not sure what happened after that. So I think that (for the part I saw) it was not a Fluther type question. I think any question here needs to be stimulating and encourage debate. Just my opinion, I don’t feel very strongly about it. But I might be off track since I am not sure if it was that question.

I think for the most part our Mods are great. Well most, I don’t have that much to do with them. I do feel though, they ignore the gang up scenario. But that is hard to prove really since some can call it healthy debate. Which is fine.

One thing I do have strong feelings on is Mods entering into a gang up scenario. As I feel for the most part they lead by example. And act as arbitrators between debaters. So when they take sides, to me anyhow they lose credibility.

@Shippy That’s the hard part. Because a mod is a mod because they enjoy the site and want to participate, but then everyone expects them to remain True Neutral at all times. Screw that. I have a point of view and I’m going to argue it. If I can’t do that, I can’t be a mod.

@Seek_Kolinahr Oh yes, I am all for them joining in. As most mods have the greatest answers, well they always get a GA from me. However, as a moderator one is an arbitrator, so one would need to take part in that in an objective way? (I am talking specifically in-between a very emotive dialogue). Not just in any context. That to me is a true moderator. Besides it is a job anyone would do with pride I would imagine. So a little holding back in a bad situation and doing the job can’t be that bad?

@Seek_Kolinahr
I was in the midst of typing a rather long response when my phone gave out, more than likely for good reason because reviewing the responses I think I may disregard a majority of new comments that I find unappealing as it seems i’m wasting breadth with people like you, @gailcalled, @WillWorkForChocolate, this new guy who misspelled rebel, and the like.

I will say, though, that the moderation and community are two of the factors, IMO, that contribute greatly to low numbers and that users like you are not only oblivious to this fact but that this causes you not to try to accommodate different needs. The grammar is only one dimension
Though I absolutely detest people who are so fixated on grammar they miss the message.
I’ll be here should something interesting be said

Rebbel is one of our Dutch users. “Rebbel” is his user name.

Gail called is a pun on my name.

Is there anything else on this site but community and moderation?

Wow. I left this thread for about an hour, came back and there are 39 new answers. Wowsers.

Here’s what I’m getting:

“I don’t have a good answer, so I’m going to ignore the question”.

And it’s “breath”, not “breadth”. And if typing is that physically straining, perhaps you should see a doctor.

This is a community. Harmony in the community is maintained by the moderators.

Anyway, I’ll be around if you come up with a way to implement the changes you suggested.

And everyone keeps on falling for it.

@Seek_Kolinahr
Not physically straining, as I mentioned before i’m typing from a touchscreen cellphone, not an ideal medium for qwerty fans.

In regards to answer to it, relaxing moderation doesn’t mean no moderation at all… As @Symbeline mentioned, learning the ropes will indeed take time but this time is now allowed by users like you who seem incapable of decency because you’d much rather point out flaws in a post rather than trying to understand an alternative perspective. A resolution for this, a practical one, may not exist in favor of “preserving the dignity” of the site (I mentioned this on augustlan’s question of how we get more members)
That being said it doesn’t hurt to acknowledge an issue in the hopes that one may reach a solution.
As I said, alot of what has been said here is akin to a patriot thinking America is perfect.

P.s. When I said “breadth” instead of breath, is that the type of post that you would stop reading? If so, understand that your obsession with grammar can be a disadvantage to you

Not allowed*
An answer*

At that point, I was being facetious. Clearly the intent of your post was well established and I wouldn’t consider it moddable. A few members (myself included) might point out the error for clarification purposes, or not.

Also, you can edit your own posts for about 15 minutes after first posting it. That way, you have a chance to notice spelling mistakes and correct them without double-posting.

I suggest y’all just walk away. Really.

Aw, we’re just starting to get somewhere.

Well, then carry on. lol

As my DIL said to me in another context recently, “There’s no need to get all meta about it.”

@KNOWITALL I never told anyone here that if they didn’t like it, then they should fuck off. Don’t include me in that statement.

As for the issue on tolerance, what exactly do you think I should do? As far as I know, whenever I participate in a religious or political, which frankly is not often at all, I am respectful of differing opinions, and I at least try to add something constructive. Sure I slip up every now and then and say something rude, or stupid. It’s happened, I admit. (and it’s been done to me, too, and not all of them were atheists or liberals) Point is, beyond being respectful in such discussions, there isn’t much else I can do. What, do I point a gun at everyone and stop telling them to bash Christians or conservatives?

As for fixing grammar and spelling, well the rules are the rules, and besides minding my own spelling and making it good and proper, this is not my shot to call. Maybe if I was part of the staff I might be able to make some kind of difference, but as it is all I can do is respect said rules.

It’s a small, small world… ;¬}

@Symbeline I didn’t say you did, but you did admit that people sometimes treat posters with different beliefs differently, as a few others admitted as well.

I would think if you want fluther to have more members and more questions, you’d treat new people a little better, just common sense.

That being said, there are a few people here, no names needed, who would argue with a brick wall that was just there being a wall, and that is tiresome. If I knew those people well, I’d probably PM them and tell them they may want to back off but that’s just me.

I say everyone just walk away because y’all are just going round and round (myself included) and are going to turn into butter soon.

Mmmm. I love buttered popcorn.

I wouldn’t necessarily say walk away just because it’s become stale to some… There is the option to “stop following” as others are still conversing

@KNOWITALL I would think if you want fluther to have more members and more questions, you’d treat new people a little better, just common sense.

I’ve often suggested this myself. That as a community, we shouldn’t expect new squishies to understand the spirit of our community right off the bat. Give them a chance, show them the ropes. (which DOES happen, not saying it doesn’t, but it also often DOESN’T happen lol) Seems to me that many people seem to think otherwise, though. Maybe PM’ing people might be a good idea, although I get the idea that many would find this extremely arrogant. Nobody likes to be accused of anything, and they will defend and justify their position. Unless someone is flaming a newbie or something, who am I to tell them how to act on the site? :/
What could be done is to PM a new squishy who might be getting severely trotted on, and try to make them feel welcome a little, and explain a bit how it works around here, and suggest that they stick around for a little bit. We should give newbies a chance, but they have to give us a chance, too. Or defend them publicly, that would also be a good idea. Just as long as the whole thing doesn’t turn into a big street fighting tournament.

HADOKEN!!

…sorry.

@Symbeline Or defend them publicly, that would also be a good idea. That is what I’ve been trying to do. I’ve done it here for a long time. There have been at least two times I was wrong and the person ended up being a troll, but I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I have been helpful to many more newbs than I have been wrong about a newb’s intentions. I like this site and I want everyone to feel welcome here. So many people here are quick to call troll and they poke and poke and poke. They feed the trolls and this is why there is drama at times. If everyone would quit feeding the trolls, or feeding people you think might be a troll (y’all have been wrong before too), all of this unecessary drama would stop.

@jonsblond You are a Fluther sweetie!

@jonsblond I agree with the penguin.

Holy shit, this is still going?

@janbb & @glacial thank you :)

@Adirondackwannabe it’s @Symbeline‘s fault. She just won’t let it drop.~

If we had more users imagine how long this thread would be.

@jonsblond She’s a blatant troublemaker. I’m not surprised.

@Symbeline
Precisely
I agree and was suggesting this up above, you were spot on. It’s a shame on a site with many mature and “intelligent” individuals, this concept is lost. Noone is suggesting letting newbies have free reign but to understand that they are new thus relax the moderation and be a little more courteous to them (instead they’d rather be extremely rude with their troll accusations and group thinking)
This was one of the main points up above that @Seek_Kolinahr, and many others, failed to acknowledge.

Antagonistic and abrasive attitudes rarely get much appreciation on this site. But they aren’t modded.

@HolographicUniverse: I acknowledged your point and asked you how it should be done, and that was not answered.

You’re asking how to be decent to new members?

Sure, the standards and moderation could be part of the reason that we don’t have more members. But I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. If it’s weeding out all the people who don’t want to follow the standards or listen to the mods, then I don’t particularly see the harm in that. In my opinion, it helps keep the content here of higher quality. If anyone doesn’t like the moderation, then they are free to leave and seek out other question and answer sites that might be more to their liking. Often, though, it seems that they choose to stick around and cause trouble instead.~

@mangeons
I disagree with nothing you said except that last part which seems like a subliminal

We are of higher quality here and it’s something that made me, not only join, but remain here (It’s this site’s greatest quality)
But is it not a strawman argument to imply that if we relaxed the moderation we will lose such quality? How did you reach the conclusion that people who join are not of higher quality? The former is akin to thinking that stricter gun control will lower the gun crimes.

Many join and are turned off within no time, a lot has to do with the mods and the users, not because they are incapable of meeting standards but because can take it too seriously (criticizing new members, insulting them for grammatical errors, posts being removed without clarity etc)

Haha why would I want to cause trouble? I like to think my life is a bit more interesting than trolling daily on Fluther.

Oh come on, I dont get lurve for that?
Maybe I should have said “oh em gee” or “time to have pancakes”

@HolographicUniverse: So ease up on standards for new users, and then at what point do the standards start becoming enforced? After a week? After a month? After 6 months? How do you police that? What’s the black and white on that one? What about Jellies who will then say “I joined two months ago but only come on once a week?” or something like that? How do you set the standards for that? So it’s simple the way it is: use proper English and grammar or get modded.

jca (22756 )Great Answer! (8 ) Flag as…¶

@jca
Are there not methods for determining registration date? The standards are still enforced but a little more leniently to allow them to become familiar with the site before determining whether to stay or leave. Obviously you tighten up after they’ve been active more frequently (easily indicated by lurve haha)

I do what I can to welcome new squishes, as I was welcomed here myself. I have sent PMs to people telling them what this community is like, encouraging them, sometimes warning them they might get attacked for being conservative or (horror of horrors!)~ religious in some fashion. In addition, I have stood up publicly for new members who seem not to be native English speakers and who are criticized for their English usage. I really try to be thoughtful about these things.

But I do not think that the grammar and spelling rules are pointless, or should not be enforced for new members. I am myself a mod on another forum, and I can barely even stand to read that website because the writing is frequently incomprehensible or quickly devolves into flaming.

Without mods our members would multiply exponentially. About 98% of the new members would be spammers, but we would sure have new members!

@SuperMouse: But people selling Nikes and Coach bags are people, too! ;)

what are squishes?

@jonsblond, squishies is a new term for Jellies. (Apparently it is another word for ‘jellyfish.’) Check out this thread for the backstory.

@bookish1 I had no clue. Never heard it before. Thanks for filling me in. So, are we not jellies anymore? Anyone remember Flutherites? My, how times change.

@jonsblond : Sure thing! I’m pretty sure we can still be jellies if we want ;)

I’m just answering to see if I get moderated. :-)

The moderation is fine. If the moderation of “writing standards” was really tight there would be about ten members here.

@CWOTUs
And how do you figure that?

@jonsblond Squishies! I’m totally gunning for this to be a regular term on Fluther. And because I’m a raging troublemaker. :D

@Symbeline You’re a blatant troublemaker. Let’s get our grammar correct.

@Adirondackwannabe Hey I was just trying to be colorful.

@Symbeline It sounds funny. My husband just said “what would you rather have on your toast, jelly or squish?” My daughter says jelly! I agree. :)

@Symbeline Actually I like raging troublemaker. It sounds meaner.

@jonsblond lol. as much as I love the word squishy, yeah I’d rather not have jellyfish sandwich, myself. XD

@Adirondackwannabe I should change my username to Rebeline.

@SpatzieLover

I love buttered popcorn.

I hear it’s even better than butt popcorn!

As a disclaimer I’m just going to say that I haven’t been around in a while, but I am an ex mod and I guess part of the reason why I stopped modding is that the pressure of interpreting the rules and enforcing them so the most people were happy was overwhelming and I didn’t have enough time to devote to working the best combination out.

You have to remember that mods are people too, they are users just like you, who want to contribute something back to the site that they love, they are volunteers who do it in their spare time. You cannot expect them to be perfect. I admire all the mods now that do spend so much time trying to find the best resolution for everyone, I couldn’t cut it but they’re still working hard.

That is also why there are the basic rules that everyone can see and follow. A good baseline for the mods to follow that are right there for you to see as well. And these rules should apply to everyone, new or not, otherwise it would be chaos. Mods do PM new members if they have been modded early on, just to explain the ropes, and basically handhold them through editing their first question, sort of like hey it kind of works like this around here, so if you just do this then your question will be put back asap and you’ll know for next time! but are you really expecting mods to personally PM every new member as soon as they join? Or keep track of how long they’re allowed to ignore the rules? How often they log in vs how long they’ve been a member for etc? Would you like to devote your spare time to doing that? Maybe how about we all just agree that if you see a new member join while you’re online, then you send a nice welcoming message, whether you’re a moderator or not. Some people already do and that’s great but those particular people will not be online at all times.

You also need to remember that Fluther is basically frozen in terms of development now that the founders have moved on. The rules are basically staying as they are, and like I said it’s too difficult to have different rules for some and not others, so newbies have to follow the rules like everyone else. Sometimes the moderation may seem slightly different, and that’s because even though there are basic written rules, there are multiple moderators, each with their own personalities and approach to those rules, and each of those moderators has to take into account that the avatars and usernames they are moderating are people too who all have different personalities and interpretations also. This is what happens in a community, and this is what Fluther is.

So to answer your original question, perhaps it is the moderation that is one of the reasons there are not more new users, but the moderation is not going to change, so everyone in the community could step up and help mods and those who already do welcome new users.

@HolographicUniverse

“How did you reach the conclusion that people who join are not of higher quality?”

I never said that all new members are of lesser quality. Could you please point out for me, word for word, where I said that? What I actually said was that the tight standards can help determine which users will contribute high quality material and which will not. If you look at many other question and answer sites, I am sure you will agree that much of their content is of lesser quality than Fluther’s. Their moderation and standards are also much more relaxed than Fluther’s, which would lead me to believe that if the moderation was more relaxed and lazy, the responses would be as well.

I dunno @Incoherency_ butt popcorn might liven the place up a bit.

@augustlan All fricken day?! Don’t know how you do it. You deserve a raise or at least a paid day off.

I’m still waiting for pancakes.

I want my cake in the frizzer.

Híjole. This has been going on forever, and may I add pretty much since the beginning of the site. And, whoa, has there been MANY a question about it.

Either accept it as it is or move along. You don’t have to be here.

@shrubbery
I agree but, yet again, I didnt say let them ignore the guidelines. It’s not hard to say “hmm this user has alot of mistakes, maybe they’re new”, it’s also not hard to view the profile.

@mangeons
I’m unsure why users continue to equate relaxed to lazy.
@tinyfaery
Your comment was literally unnecessary

@HolographicUniverse If you can’t put forth the effort to make sure your responses are properly spelled and grammatically correct, then I’d say that’s pretty lazy.

I typed “moderation” into the search field in the upper right corner of the site’s page, and it returned 9152 questions and answers. This topic has been beat to death.

As has been stated in many, many other threads, including one that @HolographicUniverse has been a part of, the founders set the rules at the beginning. They serve a useful purpose. They are not going to change. That’s the end of the story.

I get to post on this site. I couldn’t give a shit if you think it’s necessary or not. It was necessary for me to fuckin’ do it.

I’ve been on this site more than 4 years. No amount of complaining discussion is going to change the moderation. It is what it is. Radical Acceptance.

This whole question is useless and totally unnecessary. Read the dozens that came before it, which are much more interesting, btw.

And, shit, I’m still here. Never been suspended or banned. I have been modded. I don’t always agree, but I suck it up and take it, because I like the site just the way it is.

@tinyfaery Hi. How are you doing?

Still living.

@ the last 3 users
The fact that the moderation will not change has already been established and understood.. This does not, however, mean that it does not need changing or could be an issue to members other than yourselves.
The topic’s been beat to death? I did not know that as i’m a “relatively” new user. If you don’t find this thread interesting you don’t have to respond.
@tinyfaery
Radical acceptance is not necessarily good
@guy who called me a troll
Haha define troll

@Troll

Definition of Troll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

@HolographicUniverse that is what happens already.

I’m not going to read through all 200 responses to make absolutely certain I’m not repeating but I am going to give you a straightforward answer

No, I honestly don’t think that the currently lower numbers are connected to overly stringent moderation and here is WHY .

This is nothing compared to the moderation shitstorm that came in the wake of the major site rearrangement into 3 distinct sections which was a few years ago. And even then and immediately following, we were up to our ears in plenty of users and new ones showing up on a daily basis.

And when I use the term shitstorm, I’m not exaggerating. Entire threads were removed, never to be seen again (not just archived and not only about mod complaints) and the rules were unclear for just about EVERYBODY, mods included. They didn’t err on the side of caution but rather the reverse. Inconsistencies abounded because different mods interpreted the new guidelines differently.

If you thinknthis is bad, you haven’t seen anything, trust me on that. And I just didn’t take iI like a sheeple, just check some of those older threads. I and numerous others had PLENTY to say about it.

And you know what happened? They listened and communicated and evened out the extremes and we all grew from the experience

So those users who are telling you that they’re quite content with the moderation as is have seen a WHOLE LOT WORSE. And they’re letting you know that you’re making a big fuss over minor stuff. Plus you’re doing it over and over repeatedly and they’re getting tired of it. You’re not the first and you won’t be the last you can scream until the moon turns blue but this is Fluther.

And when I started noticing a drop off in Fluther numbers was NOT around the time of the major shitstorm or even immediately following because that was several years ago.

The drop off was around 6–8 months ago or so and it happened after Google changed something about their search algorithms (ask a tech person for a more complete answer since that’s not my field)

If your supposition were accurate, we would have seen steady decline after the period I just described to you (I call it the dark days of Fluther).

Could one of the reasons we don’t have more users be the moderation? [I am only repeating the question because waaaaaay down here, some 200 responses from the top, I was afraid I would forget it.]

Yes, I think that one of the reasons we don’t have more users could be the moderation.

I, for one, like the possibility that moderation simply reviles folks who think this is a playground where they can do whatever they like because the venue is anonymous. I like that the mods have this funny way of insisting that questions and answers are intelligible (more or less) to others. I like that moderation (taken in moderation) allows for a discourse of ideas rather than a free-for-all. I like that the site was set up with rules and moderators to support the opportunity to better understand folks who may be significantly different from me. I like the fact that Fluther is here for me to return to after a hiatus after mods piss me off or other jellies piss me off or I piss me off.

Can moderation alone explain not having more users? Probably not. It may play a role, but taken in proportion to the numerous other reasons (e.g., people who have a life away from their computer, people whose feelings are very near the surface, search engine peculiarities, etc.), the role may be quite small. As we have no way to know for certain, short of multivariate analysis that would be paralyzing to me to even contemplate, I can rest easy tonight knowing that the mods (who allow Fluther to even exist in its current incarnation) have only a small role in our not having more users.

My own question generated by reading this (and every single answer) is: Would more users somehow be preferred? Probably by some, particularly if it were a pay-site, as we might see changes in how the site works. As it is in reality, I have no real need for additional users unless they had some bizarre expertise that would allow some of those poor orphan questions to be answered (at long last).

@Kayak8 Thank you for a well-reasoned and beautifully phrased post.

@Kayak8 More users means a better paycheck for @augustlan. She could use it

@Buttonstc
Thanks for that bit of information, keep in mind that out of 200 responses nobody brought that up (so I doubt it’s that they’ve seen worse and that’s why they disagree) Also recognize that it was a question, not implication
I would love to see some links and compare then to now

@Kayak
great great answer. I’m glad you noticed that it is not necessarily the MAIN reasons we don’t have more users, but that it can play a role (which is what was implied in my OP “one of the main reasons”)

@jonsblond If that is true, that the size of @augustlan‘s paycheck is dependent on the number of users, she has the most to gain (personally) by allowing moderation to slack if the above premise is true. What a curious thought . . .

@Kayak8 You know, I never thought of it that way. You are right.

Gaah…can’t read earlier posts. Too many! But yeah, moderation here might be the reason why there aren’t more users. But it could very well be that those users are the kind that Fluther may not need if it wants to be true to its form and vice versa as well.

I also feel like more of just a privileged visitor here rather than a “paying customer” so I “bow” down to the powers that be. I would take whippings and lashings even. My only complain is they’re hardly sexual. Lol.

Speaking of which I do want to point out that I asked could one of the reasons for less users be the moderation.
Not if the moderation was the sole reason, nor did I imply that it was.. In that space I would say that no is inaccurate, or dishonest
@Kayak8
I would think that this is something that has crossed her mind, I mentioned it briefly on a thread because obviously traffic is beneficial
However if it’s still rewarding with only our “tight knit” community then I can only commend her for sticking to principles

I would take exception to the OP’s original statement that the the moderation “is uncompromising and excessively biased.” I do not believe this is the case. I have been moderated and I have both seen their point of view and disagreed with said point of view but I have not found any particular bias involved; simply an enforcement of rules that have been laid out.
I have also been kicked in the shins for misspellings and ungrammatical statements and I deserved to be due to neglegence (or inebriation) on my part. You just get over it and move on.
There is a whole lot of good advice and conversation that comes out of this particular website and I personally am willing to put up with the occasional slap on the wrist with a ruler from the resident nuns for my indescretions.
And I will, on occasion, continue to poke the badger knowing full well that I will draw back a stump for my efforts.

@Buttonstc The drop off was around 6–8 months ago or so and it happened after Google changed something about their search algorithms (ask a tech person for a more complete answer since that’s not my field)

Are you mad, man? :p That was like a year ago, plus a couple months. that is, unless Google decided to hate us even MORE. :(

@Symbeline

Ha ha, no, I’m not crazy but rather just piss-poor with time estimates and numbers in general. Have mercy upon me. (Thats also why I purposely included “or so” at the end of my estimate :)

So, in this case I guess that covers about 3–4 months if your estimate is correct about the Google thing.

But whenever the Google thing was, THAT is when there was a noticeable SHARP DROP OFF in the total numbers and everyone who’s been around here longer than 3 yrs. realizes it.

But my main point, which is obviously being ignored, is that IF there were a CORRELATION between the current low numbers and overly strict modding, then that correlation should have likewise been in evidence when modding was at it’s absolute worst (when the structure of the site changed to 3 distinct categories).

That was one hot mess of mods clamping down all over the place because they were just as confused as the rest of us. And just because no one else mentioned it, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

But that’s how I see it and I have a long memory.

And even if they did ease up the mod standards now, I doubt it would make even a little dent in the numbers lost due to Google policy.

In all likelihood it would be a wash with the number of members leaving due to the deteriorating quality of the site equalling out those leaving due to (perceived) overly strict modding.

I wasn’t around when the site separated things into the categories we have now. Not anything I could have therefore acknowledged. When I came here, the cats were already in line.
However, I also noticed a major drop in flow when Google chastised us, which I explained to @HolographicUniverse. I remember it like it was yesterday. I remember it more than clearly enough to suggest that said Google thing is most likely a big part of the problem. Has been ever since. Until it gets fixed, not sure how the steady flow of members can return. :/ unless Al Gore does something cool, which we know he won’t XD

I didn’t mean “you” ignoring it, silly goose :)

I was referring to the OP.

But I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no answer which will satisfy her…

And Al Gore is now a gazillionare (thanks to Al Jazeera) so he won’t be doing anything for anybody. He’s got his.

damn Al Gore, creating Yahoo and then abandoning it. Ukim!

No, certainly not!

It doesn’t help that the OP is not actually reading these posts. Otherwise they would’ve realised that about fifty posts mentioned three search algorithm before @buttonsc, and that it’s already mod policy to handhold newcomers through their first moderation.

@HolographicUniverse, if you’d like to take the time out of your life to follow the notice boards and message every new member on arrival , knock yourself out. But the rules aren’t changing. Period. Deal with it or leave. We can clean our own carpets.

@Seek_Kolinahr

Im quite sure if you yourself read the posts you will see that I fully acknowledged that. I’m unsure how you reach such conclusions but it’s highly annoying.
As of now you’re not saying anything of importance, I do believe that you weren’t even one of the ones who mentioned the algorithm issue or even that it was already “mod policy” to help new members (which I still doubt based on many, including myself, that were not handheld)
@Buttonstc
Ignoring? I suppose you did not see my first response to you?
I want to point out that a user informed us that this Google problem was fixed, I believe you can ask augustlan whether or not it’s true. When the issue didn’t exist how many new users joined on average? What was the retention rate? How many of those users are still here now or stayed through those “dark days?”
Also remember that chaotic moderation may have a different affect than strict moderation (YA! Is an example) so you can’t really conclude that members would have left because of it

@HolographicUniverse “Also remember that chaotic moderation may have a different affect (effect) than strict moderation (YA! Is an example) so you can’t really conclude that members would have left because of it.”

Q.E..D.

@janbb
I’m unsure what the abbreviation means, quantum electrodynamics?
Or quod erat demonstrandum? (in which do you mean it has been proven or which was demonstrated?)
Or are you saying I “win” in mathematical slang?

@HolographicUniverse The second, in English “Thus it is demonstrated.” Meaning we can’t tell if people are leaving because of the moderation or not joining the algorithm of Google, but feel free to continue the discussion.

@Seek_Kolinahr If you think the OP isn’t reading the posts here, then why even bother by answering with such hostility? I hate it when people say “deal with it or leave”. That helps no one.

@janbb
I figured as much, thanks for the clarity, I agree. Technically the question was answered posts ago but I think there has been, somewhat, interesting discussion. I think that the algorithm is only one dimension being addressed here, that only allows people to know you exist, how do you get them to remain here? It’s not just a matter of them not knowing about fluther, but them coming an wanting to stay rather than being turned off.
For instance on a thread by Hawaii_Jake my responses were modded without clarity, yet his post, that called me pathetic, was still up… Suffice it to say I may indeed leave as I personally find this annoying. The same with others who, may learn the ropes, but still find this conduct unattractive
@jonsblond
I agree, the “deal with it or leave” attitude is counterproductive and contributes to why fluther may be unappealing to many. As I said I find it funny that on a site of mature individuals and “intelligent” (somewhat) users, this concept is still lost

@HolographicUniverse You can always contact a mod if you feel you have been unfairly dealt with.

Just popping in to clear up a few things.

@HolographicUniverse Sorry about that other thread…I just missed that response. It’s been removed, now.
————————————————————————————-
Fluther revenue doesn’t depend on how many members we have, it’s based on how many non-members visit the site. Those are the people who see the ads, which is what generates our revenue (and my salary). The Google algorithm is definitely what brought the number of visits (thus new members and ad revenue) down. It’s getting better, but we’re still working on a few things that should help even more.

When we see a new member struggling with their writing, we send them a nice PM as follows:

Hi there, <member name>, and welcome to Fluther!

I wanted to make you aware of our writing standards, which require the use of proper spelling, punctuation, and capitalization in questions and answers. We like Fluther to appear smart and spiffy, and this attention to detail helps set us apart from other Q&A sites.

Please use proper capitalization, punctuation, and spelling in your posts. All lowercase and all uppercase posts are not allowed, so please use appropriate capitalization. Thank you for your cooperation and if you have any questions, you can ask me or any of the Moderators. Thanks!

Augustlan
Community Manager

Don’t Squishies ever sleep?

Holy guacamole this is STILL going strong 24 hours later!
@HolographicUniverse Accepting the rules of this community does not make one a conformist. I am about as individualistic a person as they come but in any community there are rules that are intact to afford and protect the quality and integrity of the common good.
Moderation is about quality control not conformity.

no

@augustlan The more members a site has would mean more non-members visiting the site. Wouldn’t that be true? (I’m just thinking out loud here. You know more about how things work with q&a’s) I’m sure I’ve had at least a friend or two check this site out because they heard me talk about it. The same goes for my husband.

@jonsblond Your friends have checked out your husband because you talked about him? :-)

good catch . I’m still sleepy.:)

@jonsblond Yes, it’s all sort of a cycle. More visits = more members = more questions and answers = more visits. And the word-of-mouth doesn’t hurt, either. :)

@augustlan
Can you answer my PM?

@HolographicUniverse: Augustlan is probably sleeping.

@jca I agree
@janbb
Can I contact mods if I feel unlurved? :-( I may need counseling
@Coloma
Was that copy and pasted? Sounds like regurgitated material from the mod’s mission statement

@HolographicUniverse Better thna that – you can have a session with me for a quarter.

@HolographicUniverse: Mods and Auggie are volunteers; we are here to protect them from too much harassment and bullying since we want them to stay. If you need counseling (and you just might), don’t expect it for free here.

Or just go outside and get some fresh air, for heaven’s sake.

@HolographicUniverse, I saw your PM and the answer is, no. jk

@HolographicUniverse Nope, my own words and my own sentiments.
Really…haven’t you beaten this poor horse beyond death at this point?
I stand by my original remarks, if you find too many restraints on your self expression than move on to greener pastures where the little colts and fillies can kick and buck and squeal all day long without any whip cracking to keep the herd in order.
Green horses are not suitable for riding these trails, if you’re spooked by a little moderation well…back to the trainer you go. lol

@janbb
A quarter?! That’s too much according to the Obama adminstration ;-)
@gailcalled
Haha the counseling was a rather ironic, inside, joke.
But are the users here to protect the mods? Or vice versa? They are community leaders perfectly capable of handling criticism without emotional response or personal vendettas (well some anyway)

@Coloma
To each his own, you may enjoy heavy moderation, for whatever reason, others enjoy “moderate” moderation

I wanted to say something , then I forgot…sigh.

I want coffee with my pancakes because this whole thread makes me sleepy.

Auggie is a very low-paid administrator and can leave whenever she feels it is all too much for her. You do understand that, don’t you? If we, the collective, make her job exhausting, and unpleasant, why should she want to hang around?

@HolographicUniverse I enjoy this site and am willing to maturely cope with the rare instances of what I might consider unfair or not well thought out moderation. Your musings are not going to reform the policies intact, so again, if ya can’t run with the big dogs then, get along little doggie.

@Coloma So true, like all kids in a sandpit we fight from time to time. That was so not was I was going to say loll.

@Coloma
Haha I hardly consider this big dog territory honey

@HolographicUniverse I haven’t read through these, but let me ask you, what would make you happy at this point? So that you would stick around and enjoy yourself.

@HolographicUniverse Well…if you are so much better than all the rest of us mutts why don’t you enter yourself in a dog show. Clearly you would not be suitable for more than prancing about wagging your tongue and tail.
Here, have a milk bone and for gods sake, sit, stay, lie down and no more incessant whining and barking or the mods will slap a shock collar you.

@Mama_Cakes
Contrary to popular belief, I do enjoy myself here.
But I do find difficulty in Co existing many users and the moderation at times
(actually if you scroll above, augustlan respectfully admitted she made a mistake)
The former, however, is like in reality which is no big deal, the latter is a little more displeasing (only in my humble opinion)

@HolographicUniverse: (the mods) Can’t please all of the people, all of the time, so they’re better off trying to please some of the people, some of the time. Whatever the rules are, not everyone will be pleased with them, just like with government, just like with work, just like with any rules or standards anywhere. If the moderation becomes more lax, some will be displeased. If the moderation becomes more severe, some will be displeased. If the moderation stays as is, some will be (are) displeased, and some will accept it.

@jca
So on what end of the spectrum is more beneficial to the site?
More severe or more relaxed?
;-)

The one the boss(es) asked for.

@Seek_Kolinahr so what the bosses asked for was a smaller community? Be more specific

I believe that @Seek_Kolinahr is saying that the end of the spectrum that is to be used is the one that the bosses asked for.

While you didn’t ask me the question about which end of the spectrum, I would say that more “severe” is more beneficial to the community. The moderation as it stands at Fluther isn’t severe, but if you’re putting this onto a spectrum starting somewhere like Askville or Yahoo Answers at the rarely moderated, relaxed end and somewhere more highly regulated than Fluther, (And no, don’t bother to ask me where that is. I haven’t bothered to look and I’m not going to.) I would rather go to a website that has higher writing standards.

@tedibear
“beneficial” pertains to more than one aspect. Stricter regulation can be beneficial for maintaining high standards but a disadvantage for attracting new members, relaxed regulation can attract casual members that would otherwise leave (which is good for obvious reasons)
I doubt that the bosses ultimately wanted an intimate community where only users like us can thrive.

@HolographicUniverse: It is what it is, as has been explained here repeatedly, so love it or leave it.

@HolographicUniverse: I doubt that the bosses ultimately wanted an intimate community where only users like us can thrive.

How do you know what Andrew and Ben had as goals?

Users like us? Please don’t dump you and me into the same pool, please, please.

Die question. Die.

I love how people say love it or leave it (Fluther), yet they don’t follow their own advice. No one is forced to participate in this discussion. Don’t like it, quit following. :)

I was sleeping, but I’ll take a look at your PM in a moment @HolographicUniverse.

As for what is beneficial to the site, the founders never expected it to get as big as it did. It was, and is, a labor of love. For us, quality matters more than quantity.

@gailcalled
I agree, when I said “we” you were not one whom I had in mind.
Also I can ask you the same question, how would you know they wanted otherwise? ( considering their departure)
@jca
How unoriginal
@tinyfaery
Word of advice, use the “stop following” button… It works

@HolographicUniverse She’s more likely to know than nearly anyone else… @gailcalled is Ben’s aunt, and one of the original members of the site.

@augustlan
I am chewing on toenails right now, I must admit

Little observation
“die question die” = 3 likes
Responses from me = 0–1

@jonsblond I love how people say love it or leave it (Fluther), yet they don’t follow their own advice. No one is forced to participate in this discussion. Don’t like it, quit following. :)

Lol. Truth. :D

@HolographicUniverse you’re really not helping your case with all your fixation on lurve. You do realise that even if people are lurving their favourites all the time there’s a maximum amount of actual lurve points you can receive from one person? And obviously the amount of GAs a response has doesn’t hold that much weight otherwise answers would be sorted by lurve on the page like up votes and down votes.

Oh, @jonsblond “I love how people say love it or leave it (Fluther), yet they don’t follow their own advice. No one is forced to participate in this discussion. Don’t like it, quit following. :)”

I sincerely wish I could but I keep coming back. It’s like watching demolition derby. You know everyone is gonna get damaged but you watch anyway.

@shrubbery
I am aware, just an observation.
@rojoo
El oh el

This is how I yawn…no really :¬)

@rojo Yeah, but at least you aren’t whining about it. You are enjoying the train wreck quietly. :)

@ucme This is how I yawn . . .

@Kayak8 Oh yeah, but I can dance too…ooh-ooh-ahh-ahh!

Does anyone know how to contact Andrew or Ben? On a serious note.

Try BlackBerry.

@rebbel
I thought you were out of here?

@holo Perhaps no one likes your posts, and that’s why you are getting no lurve. Just throwing out the obvious.

@Seek_Kolinahr
You have a gift for grasping the obvious

@HolographicUniverse He was; I hacked his account….

You could try to contact one of the mods and ask if he/she maybe has an idea as to how to come in contact with one of them.

I’ll stop when I feel like it.

I don’t feel like it.

And I still don’t want to.

I don’t know about the people being killed in Syria, but I still care. How many times does someone need to say don’t like it, leave it? I’ll leave when I damn well please. Get over yourself. Isn’t it time for work? WORK? Hahaha.

Wow. So touchy.:)

@HolographicUniverse: Ben is, at present, on his honeymoon and incommunicado. However, I am sure he will cut it short and fly back immediately in order to deal with your existential and never-ending crisis.

The chain of command still has Auggie at the top. Trying to make an end run around her is really self-aggrandizing.

@gailcalled
Smh you are so charming :-), too charming for an asshole like me to communication with so how about we keep our interaction at a minimum? Thanks for the info.

@HolographicUniverse:“Fact from Fiction.” We can communication (sic) with anyone we want to here. You are a free agent, however.

@HolographicUniverse Surely you seem like an intelligent person, so you must be able to (find a way to) contact Andrew and/or Ben and present them with your suggestions to improve/change the rules for their website.
Use one days energy that you put in this thread to do that and let us know in some days how you fared?

@rebbel
Asking how to contact either one had nothing to do with what was discussed here.

I do admit, though, that not much thought and energy is expressed/exerted here by me, this is why you will notice mistakes on my behalf (unless, of course, it pertains to something of interest or substance)

^^^^MIlo here. “Not much thought and energy”? Hahahahahaha!

Lets communication together! I love Engrish! lol

Now that people are getting snippy again, I don’t think anything productive will come from continuing at this point. We’re going to archive this one, too.