Is this incorrect grammar?

I sometimes use “they” in the place of “he or she,” but if the gender of the person is known, it makes more sense (and is more correct) to be specific. “He or she” is more correct than “they” as well, but I feel weird saying “he or she” on a casual conversation.

@livelaughlove21 has it exactly right. In the stated case, “She has a nice handbag.” would be preferable.

I agree with the two answers above. Personally, I don’t like using they, I prefer to say the person if it doesn’t sound odd. Sometimes if I am writing I might write he/she. If I know the gender of the person I would always use the singular he or she.

A group doesn’t own the handbag. Or is it one that has shared ownership?

It also kind of reminds me of gay speak in the old days. For example if my work colleagues talked about their partners, I would say they, in reference to my girl friend. To avoid using her sex. @Sunny2 I do feel as though he is referring to a group when he says they. Specially if we are talking about a known person. Who we both know.

@Shippy I have often thought that English needs a nominative personal pronoun we can use when we know we are referring to one specific individual, but we do not know, or do not want to refer to, their gender. Using “they” is confusing, because it sounds like we’re referring to a group, not a single person. We can write “s/he” but that falls apart in spoken communication. “He or she” is a bit clumsy. I vote we invent a full set of genderless pronouns.

@ETpro Yes, I think though person would do? If you did not know the person or their sex. From what I am picking up it is a cultural thing, or a slang type of approach. As he says it is common to say they not he or she. Even if you know the person. (He is in the UK).

Their is the pronoun “ze” which is newish and non-gender specific but I have never gotten comfortable using it. I would say “she”; “they” just isn’t correct.

She is correct but perhaps it’s a regional/dialect thing @Shippy? Just thinking about the North of England and I am sure people say similar things there. “Oh they look good in that don’t they”. Just a thought.

@Bellatrix I think so yes. For example we say ‘is it’ in sentences where it makes no sense.

“Oh I had such a super day” first person

“Is it?” second person. Really that makes no sense if I write it down. To us it makes perfect sense.

OMG – I just noticed a grammatical error in my post. It should, of course, be “There” not “Their.” (Flagellates self.)

I grit my teeth when someone uses “they” as a substitute for “he” or “she.”

Ok, I’m sure that the Fluther linguists and people with language degrees are about to jump down my throat and inform me that “they” is perfectly acceptable, has been used for over 300 years, is prevalent in both written and spoken English, blah blah blah.

They can’t have a handbag unless they contributed to buy one and they take turns to wear it, which doesn’t seem what you’re talking about. He/she makes sense to me.

When writing papers generalizing about medical procedures, one is inclined to use they/their as a gender-neutral pronoun. In less formal writing, I’ve used s/he, but there does not seen to be a well-defined rule about this.

“They/their/themselves” as a common-gender common-number pronoun is completely grammatical and has been used by the best English writers for the past 600 years.

The ryȝtwys man… Þat takeȝ not her lyf in vayne,
(the righteous man… that taketh not their life in vain)
– Pearl, ca 1300

There’s not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend;
– Shakespeare, A Comedy of Errors IV, iii

…every fool can do as they’re bid – Jonathan Swift, 1738

A person can’t help their birth – Thackeray, Vanity Fair, 1848

But every body is to judge for themselves – Jane Austin, Pride and Prejudice, 1813

What is perhaps not as accepted is using “they” to refer to a specific individual whose gender is known. In something like
“Look at that woman. They have a nice handbag.”
“they” refers to a specific individual of known gender. This is a different usage of “they” than the common-gender, common-number pronoun used by Shakespeare et al.

Oh, and there I was, predicting 300 years. It turns out to be 600 years.

To the linguists and grammarians (by the way, I respect you a great deal): Isn’t it always possible to find precedence for bad grammar and misused words? Can’t it be argued that someone got it wrong 600 years ago, but that the quote has endured?

I’m not being facetious or sarcastic; I’m asking an honest question. I mean, if you want to find documentary usage of atrocious grammar, just read a term paper written by any teenager.

@SadieMartinPaul I do think think that @morphail was agreeing with earlier posts. Plus used older quotes when referring to people in general, in order to point out the different uses for they

But just because some word term was being used a lot a long time ago doesn’t automatically make it correct/better.

There are examples & articles on the topic of singular ‘they’ at Language Log, a daily english language blog by academic linguists. The authors tend to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, meaning they document what people use without calling it right or wrong.

@SadieMartinPaul What I’ve learned from studying linguistics is that linguists look at language differently than “everybody else”. For the most part. And since that is the case, it’s not right to just throw out other people’s thoughts about language, even if they are non-linguists. However, the examples from a long time ago are to argue against the common idea that language “gets worse” over time and that these incorrect usages are a product of modern society and recent years. The old examples show that that is false.

If your standard for what’s wrong is a grammar handbook of the last century or so, then yes, it is wrong according to those grammar handbooks. And this can have a practical function in terms of writing essays and applications. That’s really all I can say, as a linguist. It’s not wrong on any other level. Linguists don’t tell people how to talk; they describe how people do talk. And the fact is that people do use “they” as a gender neutral pronoun and have been for a while. And it may also be a fact that this usage clashes with current prescriptive grammar guidelines.

I have been in a relationship with a woman for nearly two years. We live about 130 miles apart. I like to think I have been completely open with her from the start. She has met all my family, and just about every friend I have. I have met just one of her daughters (early on) and none of her friends.

When I speak to her about my interactions with my friends, I always mention them by name, even if she has not met them.

On the other hand, she has this annoying habit of starting a conversation with “a friend called”, or “a friend said to me…” She then goes on to say what ”they” said to her. I don’t even know if these “friends” are men or women. I know it shouldn’t matter, but why be so secretive?

@Pisces – Your reply is an entirely separate question about your relationship, and your partner’s choice to use vague language. This question thread is about whether the use of that vague language is grammatically correct. I can tell you that I would feel uneasy with that behavior from my partner. I have been through issues of deceit in previous relationships, so I know what it’s like to have that shadow of doubt looming; and now that I have complete trust and faith in my partner, I realize that I should have ever settled for that. Good luck to you, and Welcome to Fluther!

@hearkat thank you for those wise words. Yes, in hindsight, I see that my plaintive cry deserved to a separate topic.

However, I hope the last paragraph of my answer conveyed the idea the the use of the vague ”they” is alive and well in this part of the world.

Cheers.

@SadieMartinPaul “Isn’t it always possible to find precedence for bad grammar and misused words? Can’t it be argued that someone got it wrong 600 years ago, but that the quote has endured?”

Well-respected writers, writers who presumably know what they are doing, use it consistently, and it’s understood. It’s been used consistently and naturally by the best writers for a long time. If this doesn’t make it a normal part of English, I don’t know what does.

Of course it’s possible to find mistakes in the writing of good writers. But this particular usage (common-gender common-number “they”) is not a mistake. To quote Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage:

“They are uses following a normal pattern in English that was established four centuries before the 18th-century grammarians invented the solecism. The plural pronoun [they] is one solution devised by native speakers of English to a grammatical problem inherent in the language – and it is by no means the worst solution.”

It is not correct to say “they” just because you don’t know the gender, but on the other hand, it is awkward to say “he or she.” I usually say “he or she” once and then continue on with the story just using one gender. Or, I use “they” because that’s what I used before someone taught me it was wrong and habits are hard to break ;)

@Gabby101 It is correct to use “they” when you don’t know the gender. That’s what I’ve been saying.