Is the education of children a parental right?

No, it is not a fundamental right. Just like sole control of health care of children is a fundamental right. The welfare of the child trumps any claim to rights by the parents.

Parents may not deny lifesaving medical attention to children because of their own belief. And parents cannot endanger the psyche of the child by teaching them inappropriate things.

This is not meant to say that deciding a 6th grader should have geography instead of ancient history would be cause to override a parents’ decision. But some parents attempt to make some really bad decisions that can damage a child, like teaching that the Nazis had it right and that minorities should be eliminated.

At some point, it is better for the welfare of the child that someone step in and say the parents are wrong.

The parents can home school their children, but they must face the scrutiny of the education system that the children are learning, progressing, and being taught correctly.
You cannot just teach your kids that Hitler was god, and demand he be worshiped.

Wait a minute. I know I’m going to regret jumping in here, but…
The Nazi thing? How is this different from religious freedom? This has nothing to do with providing access to an education. We don’t regulate the nonsense (or anything) that is taught in the home. We are merely concerned with what is taught in schools, correct?

I see we’re going down the Nazi route here. I’m not sure what the real issue is here since I only read the link and it doesn’t specify what was wrong with the education the kids were getting. When you try to draw lines as to what is appropriate and what is not the line tends to get fuzzy. We use Nazis as an extreme example but what about Facisn, or socialism, communism, or even captalism? Are we concerned about the politics or just the ovens?

I do believe the parents have the final say unless it is way, way over the line. I also believe that parents should have options. Public school is a one size fits all solution that isn’t always the best solution. I would give parents wide latitude in raisng thier children. We want to hold parents responsible for the activities of the child, yet make them adhere to our rules of raising them.

@zenvelo: “like teaching that the Nazis had it right and that minorities should be eliminated.”

And technically, what you’re describing is values, right? The Nazis might be awful, but what gives me the right to teach compassion and equality to my kids, but doesn’t give my neighbor the right to preach white pride in his house?
This has stepped outside the conversation of access to education in my opinion.

If the laws of Germany say no home schooling then citizens are required to abide by the law or leave. They should not be due asylum.

@tom_g An interesting point though, I wouldn’t mind discussing that further if you two are interested.

This is the brief in the case with the facts. They were given political asylum and for whatever reason ICE appealed the asylum decision. The family is now fighting AG Eric Holder who wants them deported.

The question in THIS particular case will be, is the family a member of a particular social group who is being persecuted? They say yes and Eric Holder says no.

I don’t have a problem with home schooling but I think that kids should be tested periodically to make sure they can pass age appropriate competences and are not falling behind.
If the kid is in 5th grade and still can’t read because mom and dad thinks its more important for their daughter to learn to cook and sew then I think the state should step in.
@bkcunningham the brief you linked showed one side of the argument, not necessarily the facts. It could very well be true but it IS one sided.

Sorry, @Judi. Here6th-Cir is more. Is this different than the other post?

All rights are bullshit. No one should have rights, nor should the government be a standard for issuing them. People should fend for everything. That is my ideal.

Going on that, parents may teach their kids what they want. It is one of the reason I moved to Texas. They don’t regulate homeschooling. Content isn’t the only issue. Culture is another. I didn’t want my kids exposed and possibly influenced by other cultures in school (teachers nor students).

@tom_g I used that as an example of extreme beliefs that can be damaging to a child. Just like that New Jersey couple that wanted to wanted to name their kid Adolf Hitler. You may argue its “values” but I will argue it is damaging to the child.

Hmmm. @tomathon is arguing that I should be able to take his personal property as long as I can arm myself well enough to take it away. After all, in many people’s opinions, Property is Theft.

@zenvelo: “I used that as an example of extreme beliefs that can be damaging to a child. Just like that New Jersey couple that wanted to wanted to name their kid Adolf Hitler. You may argue its “values” but I will argue it is damaging to the child.”

I’m sure we probably are in agreement (or close to it) when it comes to what might be harmful to children. But the unfortunate reality is that we allow parents to teach all kinds of “hateful”, superstitious, scary things to their children that might be argued to be harmful to the child. But what would be the alternative? We periodically have the state interview children to make sure they’re not being exposed to unpopular opinion? I mean, religious freedom alone provides us with enough material to discuss possible harmful things being taught to children. But we have decided a long time ago – I believe rightfully so – that this is the type of sacrifice we need to make in a free society. We can’t legislate what parents teach their kids about right and wrong.

@zenvelo

That is correct. Excellence is achieved through suffering. Either I fend and thrive over my challenges or I get annihilated. If i’m not fending at all, then I am void.

Property is only theft if you feel you’re entitled to property.

@tom_g My understanding is that even in the US, there are standards for homeschooling. The parents do not have the right to teach “anything they want” as part of that curriculum. I realize that it’s difficult to separate what is taught as curriculum from what is taught parent-to-child, but I believe there are specific requirements laid out by the state.

@glacial

Here is a chart homeschooling laws by state

@glacial I am a homeschooling mom. In my state the only requirement is to fill out one piece of paperwork for the state annually. We have complete control over the curriculum. If the state should choose to investigate us in some way , we’d only have to prove progress.

Each state has it’s own ‘standards’, but even with standards, the law is on the side of the parents in most cases.

@tomathon & @SpatzieLover Wow. That’s pretty scary.

Why is it scary @glacial? It’s freedom.

So far all evidence points to homeschooled children doing better than their public schooled counterparts (both in testing, social skills, etc)

Hear, hear, @SpatzieLover.

@SpatzieLover Well, of course it’s scary to think that their parents could be teaching them simply anything. I am prepared to believe that you are the perfect homeschooling teacher – but regardless of the evidence that you cite, I can’t believe that every homeschooling parent is doing as good a job… or even, that some are not doing a perfectly terrible job. So, is it then possible (for example) for a child to reach the age of 18 without having learned any math at all? That may represent freedom for the parent, but it is not freedom for the child.

@glacial There’s a method of homeschooling called “unschooling”. Basically, it argues that kids have an innate desire to learn things, and that they will learn naturally, and pursue interests that appeal to them.

Any kid that likes to cook, for example, is going to learn fractions and multiplication the first time they double a recipe.

Yes, there are really bad homeschooling parents, but for the most part, the worst parents are sending their kids to school because they don’t want to deal with them during the day. The ones who want that much time with their kids, – again for the most part – are probably trying to do right by them.

@Seek_Kolinahr Sure, they’ll learn a few fractions, but will they learn pi? ;)

My son celebrated Pi Day with me. I’m an “eclectic” homeschooler. ^_^

@Seek_Kolinahr I have no doubt. But not everyone is like you!

Eclectic Homeschooling is a certain method of homeschooling that takes ideas from everything from School-At-Home to Unit Studies to Unschooling.

Basically, I’m lucky enough that my kid ASKS me for math worksheets. I bring him to work with me first thing in the AM, so between 7:30-ish AM and 9:00 when the sitter picks him up, he’s doing addition and subtraction worksheets. Or maybe I have other things to do in the office, so he plays a “What foods are healthy?” game on the computer. Then the sitter is going to bring him to the park where he’ll learn about native plants, do an art project, and climb trees. When he comes home he helps me cook dinner and we read together, and maybe lay in the bed of the truck with my cell ‘phone and compare the sky with Google Skymap app. His favourite constellation is Leo and his favourite star is Sirius, because it’s fun to say. His favourite planet is Jupiter because he can always find it.

Just before bed we’ll flip through a book about animals and compare them with his favourite Pokemon. He understands the life cycle of the Butterfly thanks to Caterpi, Metapod, and Butterfree.

A full fun day of learning for a 4½ year old.

I just wonder whether all parents are as happy to go outside of their own comfort zones to learn enough to be able to teach. Your son is 4½, so the subject matter is less involved. How would you teach him about trigonometry, when the time came, if that was something you were terrible at in high school? And if some parents de-emphasize the subjects they’re not comfortable teaching, how do kids ever discover a love for those subjects for themselves? I mean, of course it would happen sometimes, and everyone wants to believe that their own kids are exceptionally inquisitive and that they are not biased in teaching them… but there must be some kids who end up missing a lot under this kind of system.

If he gets to the point of learning Trig, I’ll sign him up for a community college course on the subject. Or hire tutors that can help him.

My job as his parent is to guide him to finding what he is good at, not what I know. I don’t generally have to teach anything, other than how to acquire information. The basics are the hardest: Shapes, numbers, the concept of “0” and how to read. All the rest, we can learn together.

Home schooling isn’t for everyone. I wouldn’t dismantle the public or private school systems if I had the choice to. It’s just something that I feel works for me.

I’m saddened at the prospect that I may have to enroll my son in Kindergarten in the fall. I hope he’s not so far ahead that the teacher ignores him. That happened to me and it really frakked up my desire to learn.

Rights are permissions protected by laws.

Governments of every country on this planet have an interest in insuring that children are educated. So…education is not a right of a parent in any country that I am aware of. In some countries homeschooling is permissible, under certain conditions.

In the USA, if you want to know what your rights are, look at your National and State Constitutions. They explain your rights.

O.k., I watched the film clip. I don’t believe that home-schooling is a “fundamental right”. I think that the government should set minimal standards and the “home-schooled” should be tested frequently to insure that they are progressing to their grade level.

That being said, I believe that parents MUST be involved in a child’s education whether their home-schooled, go to parochial school, or public school. I also believe that we shouldn’t get involved in circumventing a democratic country’s legal system.

The problems that the Romeike family are self induced. I would like to hear the government’s side of the story.

I’d never heard about this family before the question was posed, so looked around a little. I actually find it interesting that the right-wing media are championing this case, instead of calling the little girl an “anchor baby”. I guess that doesn’t apply if the family is white.

@glacial There is no guarantee that a student will get a better education through the public school system (at least in the U.S.) than they would at home being home schooled. If you have the time you might find the following article interesting. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/02/09/a-warning-to-college-profs-from-a-high-school-teacher/

I don’t think it should be entirely up to the parents what they teach their children. Of course, some may do a great job, but those would easily be able to prove it.

The Romeike’s want to home-school because they don’t agree with the religious education their children may be exposed to, right? This confuses me. As far as I’m concerned, RE is not compulsory in Germany. The parents have the right (a fundamental one, by the way) to request their children to be excused during these classes.

Evolution may be another dangerous topic, but I think parents are underestimating themselves here. If Mr. and Mrs. Romeike spend enough time ‘immunizing’ their kids against their teacher’s ‘opinion’, they won’t be corrupted.

I’d be very interested in the government’s side, too.

@glacial: “My understanding is that even in the US, there are standards for homeschooling. The parents do not have the right to teach “anything they want” as part of that curriculum.”

I wasn’t referring to curriculum. I was addressing @zenvelo‘s Nazi example (“like teaching that the Nazis had it right and that minorities should be eliminated”). This has nothing to do with homeschooling. As distasteful as these things would be, these are not factual claims. This is an example of teaching values. I completely support a parent’s right to express their opinion that “Hitler had it right”.

Now, if the state had a requirement that home/un-school students need to take a test on history, of course they would need to know the basic facts about WWII. But the addition of their opinion (or parent’s opinion) on the events doesn’t play into the test. So, I was specifically addressing the free speech angle and how it related to the Nazi thing.

@Seek_Kolinahr “If he gets to the point of learning Trig,”

See, this is the thing that really makes me think. I would never have guessed when I was doing algebra in school that I would find an interest in math later on. There are so many building blocks, not just in math, but really in most of the hard sciences, that are a tough slog to get through before reaching work that is truly delightful or beautiful. It kind of has to be that way, because you have to internalize the knowledge through practice, which is inherently boring. I’m not talking about having a desire to learn about the areas in which they can be applied, I’m talking about a desire for the work itself. If learning trig had been my choice at that age, I might not have done it. But if I’d never done trig, I would never have met calculus, and all of the work that I now love would have remained closed to me.

Well, I suppose if I had never had a ridiculously boring, droning, “You Must Memorize Every Date That Everything Ever Happened Ever” History teacher in eighth grade, I might never have had the conversation with my 10th grade History teacher that ultimately showed me how awesome history is.

Or I might not have lost two years in ”OMFG THIS IS SOOO BORING” land, and discovered some pretty cool books on my own.

I don’t agree with the premise that kids don’t want to learn, and that they need to be brow-beaten to do it. I think that kids are born with a desire to learn, and we spend a great deal of time holding them back from their natural exploratory instincts in order to make sure they’re learning exactly what we think they need to know, exactly when we think they need to know it.

Now, when I was my son’s age, I was half-way through reading “The Hobbit”, page by page, with my dad. He’d read a page, I’d read a page. 4½ years old. But math homework even in kindergarten and first grade took me hours to accomplish. At 27 years old, I still have a rough time with numbers. All the hours and hours of repetitive work did nothing to make numbers make any more sense to my brain.

My son was doing multiplication and division with pennies last night. “If I have twelve pennies and you, and Daddy, and me all have equal pennies, than we can each have four pennies!” Again, 4½ years old. He’s starting to learn reading, but it’s obvious his passion is for numbers. So while we do read every day, if he’d rather play Yahtzee or write out math problem after math problem on the refrigerator in dry-erase marker, I’m not about to stop him.

@Seek_Kolinahr,
I think it depends on the kid. My grandson is homeschooled right now as he is between places and it would be to stressful to put him in school for a few months then pull him out.
He does much better in a classroom setting where he can see what the other kids are doing and compare his progress. At home he is a little bit lazy and hard to motivate. He’s a great kid but doesn’t have the curiosity that it seems your kids do. He would be happy to play video games all day.

@glacial, anchor babies are children born in the US. This family is from Germany and seeking asylum in the US because they say they are being persecuted for their religious beliefs. There is a vast difference. I’m curious what you do for a living? Have you put your love of numbers to work in a career?

Hey, we LOVE video games ‘round these parts. Of course, my son is young, so we’re teaching mostly basics, but you can’t beat told school stuff like Tetris (hand-eye coordination, matching colours, cause-and-effect, spatial recognition…). I believe it’s even helping him learn to read, because I don’t sit there and tell him everything on the screen. He has to figure it out.

If he’s really into games, try to find some critical thinking games. Oddworld Entertainment – if they’re still putting stuff out – has some great ones. If he has a PlayStation or a PC, try to track down the 1997 game “Abe’s Oddysee”. It’s a story about an alien trying to escape from a meat-packing plant where he has just learned he is about to become the meat. Each frame is a puzzle. There are no instructions. You just figure it out. And there’s only one way out of each frame.

I never finished it, actually. It gets really really friggin hard.

Trial and error, cause and effect, critical thinking, problem-solving… Who says video games aren’t educational?

@Seek_Kolinahr: “I don’t agree with the premise that kids don’t want to learn, and that they need to be brow-beaten to do it. I think that kids are born with a desire to learn, and we spend a great deal of time holding them back from their natural exploratory instincts in order to make sure they’re learning exactly what we think they need to know, exactly when we think they need to know it.”

^ this

OMFG, I just read that they’re revamping and re-releasing Abe’s Oddysee this year under the title “Abe’s Oddysee: New N’ Tasty!” I’m a stoked little nerd right now. ^_^

@tom_g Agreed. I have learned so much more post-school by following my own interests, it really is amazing. Boredom was a huge issue in high-school and college as well, so I can see how it could be successful to change things up for kids like me.

I don’t think it’s a right, nor is parenting, if the needs of the child are neglected.

I know a number of home schooled children who are in a network of home schooled families and they all get together to do activities, go on excursions etc. They are heavily engaged in the community, their parents are educated and intelligent and so are their kids. I also know a family who home schools who do not have the intellectual quals to do so and it really shows up in the kids there is no doubt they are disadvantaged by their parents choice.

@Arewethereyet Yeah, those are the kids I think about. Who is standing up for their rights?

@glacial Well in that families case no one intervened! However, in my state you need to go to a registered facility to undertake the uni entry course , that is the the last two years of high school, so a lot of home schoolers end up in school at a really vulnerable age ie 16–18 years. They can do it by distance Ed but at that higher level they must follow the curriculum guidelines otherwise they wouldn’t get a score.

It’s all a matter of looking at the individual cases but I think using this as a reason for seeking asylum is not cool.

Yes, in relevance to what these children learn. However, I don’t think parents should have the right NOT to allow their children to get an education.

I’m waiting for the first American Porsche driver seeking asylum in Germany, because American laws won’t allow him to drive 120 mph.

Seriously, children need special protection. The main goal in Germany is equal opportunities. Denying children a proper science education for example leaves them at a serious disadvantage when they become adults and seek a job or get into a university. The same is true for a lack of sex education which leads to unwanted pregnancies capable of ruining the life of a teenage girl.

I was hoping you would chime in @mattbrowne

I suspect that the majority of U.S. home schools are attempts, by parents, to insulate their children from anything not supported by their narrow sets of beliefs.

@Ron_C – At least here in Massachusetts (in my experience), homeschool/unschool usually happens when you have highly educated (usually people in the sciences) liberal, secular, parents who have decided that this is the best thing for their children. The unschool co-ops are intellectually intimidating, to be honest. And from what I have seen, the kids are absurdly more informed than their peers (or most adults), and are emotionally and socially more healthy than the general population.
There are also people I have met who have decided to homeschool because their kids have specific needs that were not being met at school.
I understand, however, that there are obviously people who may be insulating their kids from what they see as an increasingly-secular society. But I just want to point out that this is not what I see here.

Did anyone watch the tv show Wife Swap last night with the unschooling parents versus the strict parents? The unchooled children had little to no social skills or spelling skills, and were quite immature, disheveled, and unable to relate to discipline of any kind. It was very informative for trash tv…lol

@mattbrowne, don’t we all wish a proper sex education is all it took to keep a teenaged girl from getting pregnant and “ruining her life.” Also, who is to say that a home schooled child isn’t going to get a proper science education? Or that a children in public schools get equal education and are given equal opportunities?

I’m glad you chimed in too, but the Porsche example is just silliness.

What is the history of German’s ban on home schooling? I have read various articles that attribute it to the rein of Hitler, but I’d love to see your referenced reasons for origin of the ban. Thanks in advance.

One down side of public school is they seem to spend a lot of time standing in line.

@KNOWITALL Yes. I’m sure that the implied scandal in that family’s poor home schooling had no bearing whatsoever in their being chosen for a televised appearance.

They are hardly a representative sample. It is, as you said, trash TV.

@KNOWITALL I watched that episode. I was mortified by the lack of…everything…in those children. The 11 year old could not read a book yet! It was a very bad representation of unschooling. I was equally disturbed by Cindy, the dictator mother from the other family. What a horrible woman. Her husband needs to take those kids and high-tail it out of there.

As much as I disagree with the structure of our current education system, I feel education is extremely important for children.

@Seek_Kolinahr & @Plucky Absolutely agree, I felt bad even mentioning it but it was terrible to watch both families.

@bkcunningham “Also, who is to say that a home schooled child isn’t going to get a proper science education?”

Ok, I will say it. A home schooled child isn’t going to get a proper science education.

I just want to say, my son turns FIVE in AUGUST!!

Only four more months until we can join the Museum of Science and Industry’s ASTRONOMY CLUB!

* happy dance *

Then my poor, uneducated, homeschooled son will be able to stay up all night looking through telescopes and hearing age-appropriate lectures on the formation of the universe while all the lucky bastards who go to public school have to sleep so they don’t miss the bus.

@KNOWITALL They were radical unschoolers. There is a big difference in a radical conservative or a radical democrat. There is a massive difference between various types of homeschooling. Personally, I know of zero homeschoolers that believe in “unparenting” which is what radical unschoolers follow.

@glacial Do you think there would NEVER be a case where a home schooled student got an adequate education in science?

I’ve only known one person who home schooled. She did it for religious reasons which she never really explained. It only lasted a year. It was a complete joke. She’d stick work books in front of them and then go talk on the phone the rest of the day.
I think there are parents out there who can do an awesome job of homeschooling, up to a certain grade.

@Dutchess_III No. But I think it would be rare.

@glacial – I’m sure we’re not going to see eye-to-eye on this. But let me ask you this: Have you ever had the experience of witnessing your kids spend a summer of learning and an increasing passion for seeking knowledge and experimentation only to have it be stopped by the arrival of September? And as the school year wore on and your kids would accumulate books they were just dying to read but never had the time because they were engaged in busy work and crammed into classrooms with 1 teacher and 25 kids of varying educational needs, what did you tell them? When they couldn’t stand it, and they were no longer curious because they were too busy being drilled on how to take standardized testing, did you tell them to “hang in there”? Then, finally, when summer came again, and they approached the world with a renewed passion, and they took up reading about things they were curious about 6 months prior, and when they came to you constantly asking about shit and you would spend time with them looking stuff up and learning was fun again, were you the least bit concerned that for some people school is not the optimum place for learning? And why is a model of learning (sitting in a classroom all day in front of a teacher) is so attractive to you? You can get through school without learning shit (I am proof of that). Or maybe you’re not completely sold on the one-size-fits-all public school approach, but you feel it’s better than dedicated, educated parents working with their kids to encourage not kill their child’s desire and passion for learning. Or maybe this is all new to you. Maybe you haven’t seen what children are capable of. Maybe you haven’t met all of the intimidatingly-smart unschoolers and their amazing children. Maybe educational models are not something you’ve considered before. I don’t know. I don’t unschool or homeschool my kids, but I feel pretty guilty that I don’t.

And check it out – no paragraphs, poor grammar and spelling. I went to public school :).

@tom_g I’m with you on this although perhaps some parents need testing before being allowed to be the sole educators of their children.

@KNOWITALL – I agree. I’m not entirely comfortable with the thought that some of my neighbors would be responsible for educating their children. But I don’t know a good solution. I want parents to have the right to do so. I don’t know the details, but I would imagine some level of testing at certain points would be a compromise. I think might already exist in some states?

@tom_g No, I have not had that experience. However, I have had the experience of sitting dead bored through year after year of math, thinking this would never interest me, until meeting that one teacher who made me see it differently. And then it became my life.

I just think that kids need to be exposed to different teaching styles, different people, different experiences. I don’t think homeschooling is going to give them enough, even if the parent is very good at it. And, be honest, you must realize that many homeschooling parents are not going to be good at it, at all. The children of those parents deserve to have their right to an education upheld, more than the parents deserve the right to keep their children out of school. I wouldn’t really care about this issue if we were only talking about the parents who were good at it.

For the record, for whatever reason, I never lost my passion for learning. I came up through the public school system.
There is no way in hell my mom could have adequately home-schooled us. She was a very impatient person. She was angry a lot, too.

@glacial: “I don’t think homeschooling is going to give them enough”

Do you guys not have homeschooling co-ops where you are? They are exposed to far more teaching styles, different people, and different experiences than any public school student. I’m not sure I follow.
I am really glad we have public school. But it is not the ideal environment for learning. It just isn’t. It’s a one-size-fits-all mess that works for some and doesn’t work for others. If we were to adequately test homeschool/unschool kids at various ages to make sure they were at least keeping up, would you support it as a right for parents?

@glacial

My Freshman year of high school, my Integrated Math teacher was the JV Football coach. We watched The Matrix 47 times that school year, because he had better things to do than, say, teach math.

I have no idea how to solve a quadratic equation, but I know damn well which pill Neo took and the entire monologue of The Oracle.

Institutional schooling is no guarantee of a good education, either.

@tom_g & @Seek_Kolinahr This argument is becoming pointless. I’m sure you are both brilliant at home schooling your children. What good is that doing the children who, like @Dutchess_III, have parents who are not up to the challenge, but whose parents, unlike @Dutchess_III‘s mother, think they are brilliant at home schooling, but are really crap at it? There are no rules in place to protect those children. I think there should be. That is all I’m saying, and I don’t believe that neither of you agrees.

I bet they do, @glacial. I’m sure they know people personally who they would shudder to think of them home schooling their kids.

I have known horrible homeschooling parents. I’ve known awesome ones. I’ve also known great and terrible schoolteachers and great and terrible school systems.

I am claiming that there IS NO one-size fits-all system. You are arguing that the system should be imposed on everyone because… I’m not sure why.

I don’t think that @glacial is insisting the The System should be imposed on anyone. There should be something in place, whatever it is, to ensure that the kids are really learning.

@glacial: “There are no rules in place to protect those children.”

Of course. What about my question about testing? Would that work for you?

I’m not opposed to your desire to protect children. I’m just confused that you can make statements like, “A home schooled child isn’t going to get a proper science education.” with such confidence. You seem to know very little about this topic, don’t seem to have experience with the subjects we’re talking about (children), and seem willing to write off a successful educational model for many people.

@Seek_Kolinahr No, I’m not arguing that the system should be imposed on everyone. If you’ll notice, my first post in this thread was to defend homeschooling because I thought that there were rules in place to make sure that children met specific learning targets. Sorry, but I think that should be imposed on everyone.

@tom_g I think I answered your question above. My comment about science education is my opinion. I am not proposing that homeschooling be abolished because of that opinion.

Guys who home school….do you plan to home school through middle school and high school? It really isn’t that hard to teach at the elementary levels, but later on, you really have to know your stuff.

The “plan” is to encourage my son to seek out education in the best way that works for him. If he feels he’d like to try going to high school, he’s more than welcome to do so. If he decides when he’s 15 or 16 that he’d like to try college Algebra, we’ll sign him up.

In all honesty, he’s probably going to go to regular Kindergarten this fall, solely for childcare purposes. His daddy and I both work. Hopefully he’ll learn something and won’t be ignored too much. And we’ll still go to Astronomy club and Art in the Park. If it does become an issue of diminished desire to learn, I am willing to make lifestyle changes in order to assure that homeschooling remains on the radar.

Kindergarteners are awesome, @Seek_Kolinahr. They have this wide eyed openness and awe of everything (I remember this once class I subbed in…I would put name tags on them…masking tape with their names on it. Kid told me his name was Bill. I wrote it on the tape. He was amazed. He said, “How did you know how to write my name???” :)
But yeah…they start losing that about the 4th grade. But that’s not solely on the school system. What’s going on in their home life affects them too. Why would a kid care about math when he goes home and gets beaten by drunken parents every night?

@Seek_Kolinahr But what do you think about what I’ve said about how tastes change, and how the curriculum changes? How can he ever find out that he enjoys the higher problems, if he never takes an interest in the lower level stuff? In the school system, we’re made to go through the boring stuff to get to the interesting stuff. The longer you wait to learn the boring stuff, the harder it is to commit to going back to pick it up.

I’m in the biological sciences, but my actual work is very math-heavy. What I see around me is that a lot of students come into a biology undergraduate degree, because they want to save the planet, or they like fuzzy animals. Ok, it’s more complicated than that, but honestly, not by much. They reach statistics, and a lot of them, more than you’d think, freak out because they’re not very good at math. Like, whoa, I got into biology because I didn’t like math. But the thing is, there are certain kinds of biology that you just can’t do without a very good understanding of math. There are other kinds of biology that you can’t do without a very good understanding of physics. The kids who reach undergrad and have this realization can make it – because they do have the background. They had to get it, to get through high school. This is where it gets applied. But it’s a surprise to them that it ends up being crucial to their success – and they are the ones who chose what path to follow.

So, when your only guide is your parent, and you’re being told that it doesn’t matter whether you “choose” to study algebra or not, because your love of butterflies means you can grow up to be an ecologist… I’m sorry, but that’s not going to happen. An ecologist needs, at the very least, a solid understanding of very complex statistics to be able to do any work. And this is true throughout the sciences. What you think will never apply… ends up being crucial. That is why I don’t think that the kind of “follow your heart” homeschooling that you describe will lead kids in general to science degrees. Because neither the parent (unless they actually have experience in this area) nor the child can know what will be needed at the endpoint of this education.

You’re mistaken in that you believe that a homeschooler is limited to their parents.

The second my son comes up to me and says “I like fuzzy animals. I want to be a biologist” the next step we take is to find a biologist and talk to them. Find out exactly what it takes.

Or maybe we take a visit to an art museum, and he takes an interest in that. So we take a few pottery classes. Maybe he really likes it, so we sign him up to take formal lessons.

Nothing leads in general to science degrees. That’s why scientists are rare and special. No one becomes a scientist unless science is in their hearts. They have to have the desire to work through the boring stuff before they’ll do it. Better even still if they choose for themselves that the boring stuff is worth the effort, because they have recognized the value of their hard work. Even better still if they have a mentor in the field who can help them, and even better if they have the time to devote to their passion because they aren’t being forced to learn a curriculum that has nothing at all to do with it.

@Seek_Kolinahr “The second my son comes up to me and says “I like fuzzy animals. I want to be a biologist” the next step we take is to find a biologist and talk to them. Find out exactly what it takes.”

Ok, that’s really cool. I love that. My only advice is that you don’t stop at one. Find several, because they will all give you different advice. :)

“That’s why scientists are rare and special.”

I actually don’t agree with this. I think that many more kids could grow up to be scientists than actually do. I think the reason that they don’t is that they grow up believing they’re not good at math, or that it’s rare that people are good at math, or that it’s not possible to be good at math and good at art, for example. I think more needs to be done to battle willful innumeracy. So, I guess I’m asking you to do your part. ;)

@tom_g “But I just want to point out that this is not what I see here.” I knew about intellectuals home-schooling their kids but haven’t seen it for years. In fact, twenty years ago, one of my customers home schooled his kids because Boston schools were just too dangerous. I remember turning on the radio to find out how many people were murdered the night before.

Here, in Pennsylvania, Amish and religious fundamentalists are the ones most likely to home-school their kids. That’s unfortunate because the schools in my little town are excellent. I have always supported public schools and insist that the schools maintain a high level for scholastic achievement. I’m a graduate of Catholic school and would not subject my kids to that abuse.

I’m not sure what reason people would have to home school their kids on “religious” grounds. Do you think that they think the schools are preaching atheism or something? The deciding factor of a kid’s religion is the parents and how religious they are.

@Dutchess_III Yes, but there are many in the born-again sects who believe that public schools are actually dangerous influences for their children, not necessarily because they think that the schools promote atheism (although there is also that fear), but because the schools don’t teach in a Christian context.

Also, many don’t want their children exposed to any teachings on the subjects of sex ed or evolution.

What was that question about ignorant people being happier?

That just blows my mind.

Why do you think people decide to send their children to private schools?

I had my daughter attending a private school until 5th grade, when the divorce hit. I sent her because they had higher expectations and were more disciplined. Things were under control there, unlike the public schools.

Hhmmm.

@Dutchess_III Are you actually asking on what religious grounds? If so, according to the religion I belong to it is the parents “duty” and right to educate their children. (Canon Law).

I will make it clear here that I am in no way bringing religion up to debate my religion. I am merely answering @Dutchess_III‘s question. Religion didn’t make our top ten list of reasons to homeschool our son.

@Dutchess_III, You asked above about middle & high school: It is our current plan to homeschool our son through the beginning of college.

Even with our current curriculum, there are instructional DVD’s or videos.

@SpatzieLover I suspect that none of the people who posted on this question homeschool for religious reasons. But, at least initially, the perception was that most parents did it for those reasons.

“What about home schooling? You know, it’s not just for scary religious people anymore.” ~ Buffy the Vampire Slayer

I’ve only known one person (above) who home schooled, and it was for undefined religious reasons. It was a train wreck, IMO. She messed up a year of her kid’s education so she could be making some sort of “statement.” I never knew what that statement was.

Did you guys ever get that hand out that said, “Read all of the following instructions carefully before you begin.” I got it the first time in 7th grade. And it goes through all of these things you’re supposed to do…poke holes in the paper, draw a square, draw a circle. about 30 different things. Well, 90% of us (including me) were doing just that, poking holes and drawing. It took 30 minutes. When we finally got to the last set of instructions they were “Don’t do any thing except write your name at the top.” Yeah! It was an eye opener for me!
Anyway, I came across some copies of that as I was working toward my Ed degree, and I took them to my friend (who home schooled,) and we handed them out to the kids. Every one of them, hers and mine, did all the poking and drawing…..when all was said and done, my kids looked up at me like “Whaaaa??”
I said, “Well, what was the first instruction?!” And I grinned.
They’ looked at it and said ‘Oh, Mom!”
I’m like, “Yep. I ‘failed’ it too, in 7th grade.”
My friend, on the other hand, lit into her kids, yelling “That’s why you aren’t doing well because you never follow the instructions!” I mean, she ranted for 5 minutes about how bad they were. My kids were staring at her with large, frightened eyes. It was very uncomfortable.
Yeah. Home school.
Having said that, I have no doubts that those Jellies here who home school are quite capable, and will do fine. I believe many people will do just fine.

@bkcunningham – Getting a proper science education requires teachers who went to college and passed the required science exams. I wonder how many homeschooled children have parents with such a level of eduction in the US. My guess would be less than 1%. People who teach creationism lack a proper understanding of science. In Germany science teachers also have to pass exams in child psychology, pedagogy and didactics. The curriculum of all public and private schools, as well as the teachers, are supervised by administrative agencies set up by elected representatives to ensure equal opportunities. No system is perfect of course, but proper supervision is key.

I don’t think the Porsche example is that silly. When you disagree with a law in a democracy this forms no basis to seek asylum in another democracy. Asylum is for people who manage to escape a totalitarian system. In a democracy the way to go forward is to elect different representatives able to change the law. Or even to form a new political party. The vast majority of German voters support the ban on homeschooling. That’s just reality. The majority of American voters support the purchase of assault rifles. That’s a reality too.

What is the history of German’s ban on homeschooling? The ban was created in 1938 when Hitler ruled Germany. The Nazis had a special interest for obvious reason. They also created an interstate highway system. In 1949 the newly elected parliament got rid of everything evil created by the Nazis. No homeschooling and interstate highways was seen as something that should be kept. One reason was actually, that if homeschooling was allowed, non-identified Nazis could keep on teaching Nazisms to their children at home.

There are other countries with no homeschooling or virtually no homeschooling and these countries have no history in Nazism.

I’m aware that there are pros and cons and in a democracy it’s the elected representatives who decide. In Germany the idea of special protection for children is important.

I know I am coming very late to this discussion, but here is my experience regarding homeschooling vs. public school. One of my daughters was in 4th grade, in her first year of public school after homeschool. My neighbor had a daughter the same age who she was homeschooling. Together we cooked up the idea of having the kids do a science project for the regional science fair.

We approached the kids about it, and they got excited, so I talked to the teachers at school, and explained that my daughter would be doing a special science fair project for a few weeks, and would the teacher get all the homework together for her because she’d be in school for half days for a little while because of the regional science fair project. Well the teacher had a fit. She HAD to be in class, because she would miss all this instruction, bla, bla, bla.

I said, “Fine, tell me what it is, and I’ll make sure she’s caught up, and all her homework gets turned in on time. Let me know in advance and I’ll also make sure she’s there for any tests you want to give her as well.” The school people went on and on, but we went ahead with our science fair project anyway. It involved a great deal of math (higher level math, no less), several trips to the biology department at the local university, use of an electron microscope, a trip to the dairy barn located on the university campus (it was an agricultural college), and lots of other stuff. The kids did every single step of the experiment, every single time. They knew exactly what they were doing, because we double checked at every step. Finally, the girls took their results to the University people and had them double check the results, and talk to the girls, to see if they could explain their experiment to the professors there (sort of a dry run for the science fair)

The day of the science fair, our girls were the youngest, but certainly two of the most competent competitors in the field. They won 2nd place in the competition, and they were competing against high school kids.

Back at school, my daughter (who kept up with all her assignments) walked in with her trophy from the science fair, and showed it to the principal and her teacher, and the girls offered to present the same project to the students and teachers. Know what they got? A resounding “No!” and frowns.

These people were clueless.

Our daughters still talk about how much fun that science fair project was (they are 26 now). Don’t tell me you can’t teach good science in homeschool!

MOST people can’t teach good science,or math for that matter. Not all.

Elementary school teachers in America aren’t necessarily college educated science teachers. Science teachers in America aren’t necessarily educated in college to teach science either. What @mattbrowne says sounds good on the surface though.

Add to that the dismal failure of the public schools in my nation (USA) and homeschool or a good private school sounds better and better.

That same year as the science fair, my oldest told me she wanted to try high school. I took one look at our local high school which was full of rednecks and a huge percentage of students dropped out, and I suggested she go to college instead. We enrolled her in a concurrent enrollment program where she got both high school and college credit. She pulled a 4.0 as an electrical engineering major.

Huh. I must have done something wrong.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I have a high school diploma and one year of college. I am no great shakes as a science teacher or a math teacher, but I knew how to educate my kids, without anyone looking over my shoulder.

Teaching covalent bonds was the most fun. We did it with teddy bears. LOL

@bkcunningham Elementary school teachers are college educated. You have to have a BS or BA in Education, but that’s just a general education degree. We learn every subject, from art to science to math to PE because we teach it all at the elementary level.

However, to teach at the HS levels you have to have secondary certification (a masters) in what ever one field you want to teach in be it science, math, English, whatever.

The most fun I ever had with a science project was in a 5th grad class. I had the kids use a hot-glue gun to glue different colored gumballs together, which represented atoms of elements, together to create compounds / molecules. :) Kids loved it. They got to pick what molecule they wanted to create. I had SO many sodium bicarbonate (baking soda—NaHCO3) molecules floating around that I ran out of oxygen atoms. So then then the race was on to find molecules that didn’t use oxygen atoms. :) So much fun. They LOVED it.