Can you find stores that sell reasonably priced clothes that are manufactured in fair conditions?

Great question. Thanks for bringing it up. I’ve been wondering the same myself. Those incidents are horrific. We are not used to thinking about shit like that in the First World anymore. That is the face of “free trade.”

I’m going to keep shopping at thrift stores, and try to mend my clothes myself or pay tailors to do so. I’m not sure what to do about socks and underwear, though. That stuff all seems to be made in Bangladesh, Thailand, India, Pakistan, or Vietnam…

Do you really think you can do the necessary research to know whose entire supply chain is free from oppressive practices, price gouging, bribery of officials and inspectors and where everyone involved is nice to small children and puppies?

I sure can’t. I buy legally available products from the stores and other sellers who appear to be lawful owners and agents – at the best prices that I can negotiate without lying or cheating on my part, either.

Every country that is going to develop industry is going to go through these kinds of events. The USA did it, too – and we’re still trying to improve, even given how far we’ve come. People someday will look back at the conditions that we’ve worked under now, today, in the USA and wonder “How could they have treated their workers so badly?” Check out the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire (and the reasons why it was such a killer – in New York City, just over 100 years ago). Should people have shunned the United States because of some imperfections and some (apparently) common practices that got a lot of people killed? (These conditions occurred again just a few years ago at a factory fire in North Carolina, by the way. No one gets “permanent immunity”.)

This is not to excuse such events, not at all. But it’s only when such disasters occur that societies decide to change their modes of operating.

To be frank, I doubt if this will change much in Bangladesh. They don’t seem to have gotten serious about such practices yet. And it’s not just Bangladesh. India, China and Indonesia are other places where industry is being developed quickly, and with a nod and a wink to many who choose to skirt honest practices and processes for the sake of a quick buck.

This is also not to say that you shouldn’t buy goods from places that have bad human rights and employment / building practices. How will their economies ever improve to the point where people can afford to demand honest practices?

@bookish1 thanks. I mean they don’t seem to get a break from misery.
@CWOTUS wow that is just horrid beyond belief. Blame the victims.

Seriously, @flo? I spent all that time on that answer and that’s your take-away? #headdesk

@CWOTUS “I can negotiate without lying or cheating on my part, either.” Aren’t you lying to yourself knowing the misery (most likely) behind the goods?

@bookish1 thanks for the tips on how to help.
Incredible how many perfectly good clothes we can find in thrift shops.
Not to be such slaves to fashion, is one major way to go too.

You can learn to sew. and I hope you would have better luck with it than I. I seem to have no ability to visualize what’s supposed to happen. I had to do almost every step twice…

I didn’t need to interpret (“take-away”) I just read what is written:

“To be frank, I doubt if this will change much in Bangladesh. They don’t seem to have gotten serious about such practices yet. And it’s not just Bangladesh. India, China and Indonesia are other places where industry is being developed quickly, and with a nod and a wink to many who choose to skirt honest practices and processes for the sake of a quick buck.”

@Sunny2 sewing is such a great talent to have isn’t it? Good idea.

Try Bergdorf Goodman, Barneys, and Saks Fifth Avenue. The stuff they sell mainly comes from Italy and France.

You need to explain to us firstly, what is reasonable pricing?

I would much rather focus on issues I understand that I feel I can impact directly.

Not to invalidate the human rights issues going on around the world. But to realize the best way to focus and improve the world is right in front of us.

In my community I am overwhelmed with causes. Feminism, Domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse. Gm and food health. Medical monopolies and limitations of naturopaths and holistic healers.

Military wounded, ptsd their families with ptsd, poverty and homelessness in the community. Gun rights and subsidizing our meat supplies by hunting and fishing. The battle of air quality, epa, rising costs of heating homes the price of electricity and gas and how spread out our community is spending 9 months in subzero temps. The education of our children. Ageism, elder abuse, child abuse, racism, discrimination.

The local economy, Alaska’s lack of a long term viable economic plan. Energy wars, gas pipelines.

I can’t spend enough hours in the day staying informed and working on these issues. So while I care about human rights issues I would rather utilize my time so that I am impacting what happens around me, and trust that everyone else will do the same.

Voltaire has your back in Candide, @rosehips: “We must all tend our own garden.”

Have not read Voltaire as of yet, @CWOTUS, but I think I grasped the meaning of what you said. It wasn’t about harshness or a lack of caring.

But even if enough people boycotted, the only result is to make that nation poorer and potentially reduce conditions even further.

What they can do is strike and demand a fairer distribution of wealth. ETC. As many other people have in the past.

Meanwhile we aren’t exactly rich enough to be chosy and deny bargains when we get them. Or I am not.

You should read Candide. You can do it in a day. An easy, delightful day.

I will keep that in mind when I next stop by the library.

@rosehips They are not mutually exclusive, don’t you think? And the world is too globalized now.

@flo What is not mutually exclusive?

I am not sure that we are globalized to the extent that we can appropriately comprehend what is the correct action to help human rights issues across the world. Yes our economies have some level of interdependance and we are more aware of issues that are unfolding.

But damn we are still trying to figure out so much of our human rights issues. Often stumbling and making mistakes because we don’t really know how to fix all these things, poverty, poor education, bigotry, racism, domestic violence substance abuse why go over there and muddle in their problems. Like engineers we may have plans that look great but it takes contractors to iron out details to make it all work and then the people stuck with product may feel it better done another way entirely or find the solution worse then the problem.

One example I am familair with is the choose respect campaign our governor is instituiting. To distill it: means a lot more people will go to jail for dv and abuse issues get a lot more jail time. Stiffer sentencing etc. Sounds good until you consider with our jails overcrowded and citizens footing the bill this does nothing but shift the dynamic of the problem. Also considering that it would be job and future limiting. Many people feel jail life is better then their real life especially in the rural villages, heck these people not ony get running water and don’t have to worry about heat and food but they get tv and a gym and a social life and there are plenty of ways to sneak contraband in.

What we really have a problem with is poverty, lack of education, opportunities, rising cost of living and a lack of hope that they can change their circumstances. Which leads to depression anger stress and substance abuse which leads to abuse in general.

Now the governor and the legislature drafted that piss poor campaign, some parts are good education and awareness especially for the judges would help but over all it is trash and they live in the area. They should be aware of the underlying issues.

But they aren’t or they just would rather make themselves feel better and make their look rosy. So when you tell me that a boycott is going to help people in Bangaladesh and I should be up in arms about it and ready to go to bat for them.

I am firstly skeptical that it would do any good and secondly wondering why they aren’t helping themselves.

@rosehips “why go over there and muddle in their problems.?
What do you mean by muddle in this context?

“So when you tell me that a boycott is going to help people in Bangaladesh and I should be up in arms about it and ready to go to bat for them.”
The purpose of boycott isn’t to bring about loss of jobs, hopefully, it is to trigger inprovement.

@flo I should have said “muddle up.” Confuse the issue with fixes that could be more or just as harmful as letting things lie.

I realize the purpose of boycott. But in this case I question whether it would be successful. A couple of points: Nature abhors a vacuum.
The people who work in these factories do so by choice but driven by poverty. An embargo or a derivative of that seemingly would contribute to scarcity of income.

What is to stop opportunistic greedy businessmen, if the others are jailed to create more factories but under worse conditions because they now have to be more careful to hide and because they are taking risks a larger portion of income? Or changing merchandise or just moving to another impoverished country i.e. this isn’t new there are many examples given in fairly recent history.

How long could a boycott on a large enough scale be reasonably maintained before our attention shifts to the next cause or next atrocity? So even if positive change were to happen it wouldn’t be a long term solution. Things would shift back as soon as possible and the victims since they hadn’t grown or struggled or learned how to handle themselves would once again be victims.

On another level we must examine what problems we are avoiding that seem harder to solve closer to home. If we continue to spread our resources, attention thin and our growth stops or diminishes. Becoming codependent if you will. Why are other people’s problems so compelling to us when we have so many of our own? Does it feel nice to pat ourselves on the back and say we are great people because we help the underpriviledged? Even if we have no proof of that help, or no unerstanding of it? Is it avoidance, is it healthy, if a country becomes codependent on us and we fall or can’t maintain that connection aren’t we crippling them?

However we all should have causes and just because things are complex or difficult if we feel that we can make a difference. And feel rationally that you can dedicate time and take on the additional responsibility then by all means I encourage you and applaud you. Go for it.

It is your choice, and I am making the choice not to do anything about it even though I am aware of it because I don’t feel like I can be helpful in this situation. Time is limited and I have other causes. I don’t feel like that makes me a bad person. Though it seems you have judged me and anyone else who disagrees with you as so. The reason I took the tone that I did was because of the judgement I perceived from your OP and following comments.

I am however not perfect either because here I am avoiding other important matters and decisions to think and respond to you. I do so willingly because I want a distraction. So peace and thank you and now that I realize I am in avoidance mode I should do something about it.

@rosehips that is a lot for me to read and respond to. Could it be that if you were one of the victims, you would want everyone to have your position?

@flo It took me longer to write then it would you to read. But very well.

No point in talking to the deaf.

But I have to say something. In which case I will employ anothers words and you will indubitibly misinterpret if you read.

I’m the result of upbringing, class, race, gender, social prejudices and economics. So I’m a victim. A Result.
James Hillman

@rosehips. My question was a rhetorical really.