In regards to your kids / grandkids, are you more likely to back up school rules or tell the kids they can just disrgard a rule because it's stupid or whatever?

Basic rule in @cookieman’s world: If you’re in somebody else’s “house” you follow their rules. Whether it’s school, grandparent’s, aunt’s, friend’s – whatever.

Now, if I hear of a “rule” I really don’t agree with, I will speak with whiever’s in charge and decide if she should return there.

Great answer @cookieman! That says it all.

The only time I would go against school rules is when they are patently ridiculous. For instance, my daughter’s teacher in grade 1 insisted that rather than pronouncing H as ‘aitch’ the children said ‘Haitch’. I refused to let her do that at home and I challenged the teacher about it. Her argument was ‘it helps them to learn the sound’. My belief is you don’t teach children something that’s incorrect.

Other than that, I agree with @cookieman.

I don’t have children, but mostly I would back up the school. If a rule was blatantly ridiculous I might try to fight it, but possibly it would be done without my child’s knowledge. It would depend on the situation and age of my child.

As far as dress code, I would tell my child she needs to follow the code. Dress code is a matter of respect and learning we wear different clothes for different circumstances. In the situation you describe it all sounds perfectly reasonable. The child wanted to try to buck the system, her mom gave her a reasonable solution, to wear a jacket, and I guess she chose to take off the jacket and had to pay the consequences. The consequence was she had to change her shirt and she did not get away with it, and knows she must obey the rules. Hopefully, she learned a lesson.

@Bellatrix I didn’t quite follow your post. Could you give me an example, like a word that begins with H and how the teacher said it should be pronounced?

Not words… the letter. When saying the letter H it is pronounced Aitch not Haitch.

So the teacher would say this is the letter Haitch and she insisted on it and corrected them when they said ‘aitch’.

I see @Bellatrix. But I see her thought too…expelling the air to make the “H” sound we make when we actually use a word that starts with H.

I will support school rules as long as they are reasonable and do not disadvantage some children in order to satisfy others. Rules that disadvantage children from poor families or those of a different religion will be opposed by me with vigour. Trivial but harmless rules can be tolerated as must we all living in a society.

Firstly, I don’t believe you teach people, even children, something that is incorrect, to only then have to come back later and retrain them. They’re now in the habit of saying Haitch and they’re told they have to relearn. Secondly, there is a difference between saying “this is the letter aitch and it makes the hhhhh sound” and “don’t say aitch, say haitch”. I actually suspect the woman was ignorant of the correct pronunciation herself.

It did leave me pondering on what else she was teaching them.

I have to agree with you @Bellatrix about the whole H thing.

Qualifier: I am not a parent but this was my parents stand on the issue at hand.

If I believed a rule was unfair, my mother would have me produce an articulate argument, in writing, that needed to demonstrate my understanding of why the rule existed and why I believed it was unnecessary/outdated/discriminatory.

If my point was justifiable, mom would help me present it to the principal and in one case (students not being allowed to wear “Gay Pride” buttons on campus) to the school board.

I have to say, most often I was either too lazy to write my argument OR in the process of writing it, I saw more clearly the reasoning behind a rule.

It was good preparation for real life.

I don’t think that I would tell anyone that it’s a good idea to “disregard” a rule, no matter how stupid, but I often counsel “defiance” of them. I practice what I preach, too.

You have to be ready to face the consequences, but defiance has its place. I don’t think I would counsel elementary school children in that way, though. All I did with my kids was teach them to Question Authority.

The “H” rule cited above is pretty stupid.

Wait. Now I’m thinking of this @JLeslie and @Bellatrix. Think of the word “help,” or “horse” for example. When you say it, do you expel a bit of air on the “H”? Yes. So that’s what I think the teacher was trying to bring home to the students. Saying “aitch” doesn’t expel that breath, any more than “apple” or “apply” does. “Haitch” does, as in “how.” It’s not anything I’ve ever thought about before in any of the K-3 classes I’ve taught, but it does kind of make sense. Nothing to make a big deal over, though. They figure it out pretty quick, regardless.

However, having said that, I don’t think there was a right or wrong in that argument. Unless I’m missing something. Why would it be “incorrect” to say “haitch,” @Bellatrix? Maybe she was just being anal, but not necessarily incorrect?

In Hartford, Hereford, and Hampshire…Hurricanes hardly happen.

Huh?

@Dutchess_III It isn’t how you say the letter. C is pronounced see, but sometime C is pronounced like a K, so? Are you going to say guee for G?
Wah for W?

In Memphis some of the black people say R wrong, I don’t even remember how they said it, but you would never understand it, trust me, you would have no idea what they were saying. That is ridiculous to me. I don’t even understand how it happens, didn’t they sing their ABC’s? For that matter, H is also in the ABC song. Why have a child learn how to say H two ways? It doesn’t make sense to me.

It’s not a fair comparison @JLeslie. “C” can be pronounced as an S or a K (which has often made me wonder why we even HAVE the letter C. Why not just use K or S?) “H “is only pronounced one way. They don’t have to learn to say it two ways. The teacher was trying to teach them to expel more air on the “H” when saying their ABC’s, the way you would if you were using a word that began with “H”.

Let me be clear…I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with the teacher or @Bellatrix. I’m saying neither is “correct” or “incorrect.” I also wonder if she was also having to teach a speech challenged kid in her class. Just a thought.

I’m also guessing the teacher was A) very young and idealistic and thought this idea up whilst sitting around brainstorming in her college dorm whilst hitting a doobie with her fellow student teachers :) or B) Old and set in her ways.

@Dutchess_III I think it is fair to say English is a messy language. Why accomodate one letter? X sometimes sounds like Z, C can sound like S or K, GH sounds like F or air. T and H together sound nothing like either letter separately.

I agree. English, and English spelling, are a mess! But…they had their reasons. Probably a lot of it had to do with trying to incorporate other language sounds with the limited English alphabet. Got this from Answer.com:

“As far as I can figure, the “F” sound and the “Ph” sound used to be different sounds.

There was no “F” sound in Greek, it was just a softer “p” sound, which is represented by just one Greek letter and is closer to a regular “p” sound. But it’s not the same as a regular “p” sound, which Greek also has.

So when Ancient Roman grammarians translated Greek into Latin, they spelled it “ph” to distinguish it from the regular “p”, because they didn’t have the letter for it. Fast-forward a few centuries, and people had stopped using the the softer p sound in regular speech, for whatever reason – probably because it was too difficult to pronounce in faster everyday speech – and it sounded enough like the regular “F” sound that it wasn’t all that confusing. But the spelling of it stayed around. So all “ph” words where it’s pronounced “F” are originally Greek in origin.”

I’m betting the Irish Gaelic kinda screwed us up too.

@Dutchess_III Ok, so how does that affect how you feel about a teacher instruction her children to say haitch? Are you still standing by your answer that it is alright to teach it that way?

To explain every reason why a word is pronounced in the English language we could be here for hours. As you said, English incorporated many languages. It is Germainic, yet we have many words with a Latin root. We take words directly from other languages, while some we put an English twist. Spelling changes over time. Doughnut is now donut in America.

Still, for me, H, should be said as we pronounce it when we sing our ABC’s. Although, to contradict myself, I think zed is better than zee for Z.

@Dutchess_III
My reference was to My Fair Lady when Professor Higgins is trying to get Eliza to use her “haitch”. He had her use a candle to move the flame to a “huh” sound.
Before, she would say “In Artferd, Eraferd and Ampshire”...

@Dutchess_III An equivalent example would be to start calling the letter F, “feff”. It’s ridiculous – that’s just not what it is called. There is no reason that @Bellatrix‘s daughter’s teacher should call H, “haich” and yet call F, “eff”. Her logic is not even consistent.

I’d mostly back the school. If a rule was ridiculous, I’d try to get it changed.

Also, “H” can be silent, too, like in “hour”. I would never pronounce it “haitch”. That’s just weird.

Aitch is the way I have always said it. But I seem to be the only one (apparently besides @Bellatrix) who does because it sure seems as if everyone else in Australia says Haitch. You hear it pronounced that way by supposedly educated people and bogans alike. The other one that throws me is here they pronounce herb as one would say the name Herb, you always pronounce the H in front. I am always getting funny looks for that one.

But to get back to the question, I, as my parents did, would go along with the school rules. I just saw on facebook where a woman went ballistic because her child was reprimanded by a teacher for what she considered to be a minor infraction. I think that is teaching the kid that it is okay to interpret rules as you see fit, not as the authority in place sees it.

I don’t have kids, but as a high school senior, I can say that there are some rules that even I, being a “good” student/kid, choose to ignore, as do the rest of the kids at my school, simply because they are kind of ridiculous. Take the dress code, for example. I don’t wear anything too outrageously inappropriate for school. But I’m pretty sure that every pair of shorts I own is at least 6 inches shorter than dress code requirement, which requires them to be “fingertip length”. Do they really expect girls to wear knee-length shorts to school? It’s just unrealistic. Same with the whole “no cell phones/other technology use in school” rule. Like any kid, I’m definitely not against using my phone during class or lunch, as long as I’m paying attention. And the reality of it is that even most teachers don’t enforce these rules, because even they think they’re ridiculous.

The point that I’m making is that even though there are some rules in place, that doesn’t mean they are realistic or effective, and if I was a parent I wouldn’t necessarily say that the school was right in those kinds of situations.

When my daughter was in grade nine we discovered that she had missed some school days
( two or three). The Vice Principal telephoned me , and I had to go to his office for a talk?
( he would not tell me on the telephone).
She was a straight A student with high marks and only missed these two or three days in total, and it was the end of the school year. ( May).
He wanted to punish her? I said No!
He was upset when I TOLD him that since my daughter managed to maintain a high average dispite her days missed, that until her marks went lower, he IS to do NOTHING about it.
And that IF HE did not like that, that I would talk to his Superior ( the school Superintendant) about it.
He backed down and seemed scared of me? ( I was very calm and polite in talking to him.)

Later my daughter “quit’ going to school altogether, in the last three weeks of that grade without me knowing.
In September when now in Grade 10 and late in the year ( again one month left of the school yr) she realizes that the High School ( now) would not grant her admittance into the next grade?
I again had to intervene stating the obvious, that she maintained even a higher mark in grade ten and so deserves not to be held back but rather admitted into the next grade.
Worked out very well, and now she has a Accounting Degree from University.

I finished my high school career in a private school, where as Juniors and Seniors, we were expected to make our own phone calls to the principal for excuses.

We were soon to be adults and we had to take our own responsibility.(My car won’t start) The principal reserved the right to call “bullshit!” and say “Get your butt in here by 3rd period. I know the busses are running. We’ll make up your missed time later.”

If I had no complaints from my teachers and all my work was timely and done well… I would not have to necessarily comply with attendance requirements. If my lack of presence affected others I was working with on a team, I would be held accountable for making up for it.

Again, preparation for real world situations.

I nearly always support following the rules. When there is a difference of opinion, I support taking action to change the rules, or to discover how to get a waiver.

I’m not talking about people dropping their aitches as in Eliza Doolittle or how we say help, horse, house, Harrods etc.

I’m talking about the way people pronounce the name of the letter H which is aitch. So when you say A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, you pronounce H as aitch. The correct pronunciation is aitch.

David Mitchell has the right idea… funny.

More on aitch…
http://suite101.com/article/how-to-pronounce-the-letter-h-a284481

From the Oxford English Dictionary

aitch /eɪtʃ/
▶
noun
the letter H.

– phrases
drop one’s aitches fail to pronounce the letter h at the beginning of words, a characteristic feature of certain dialects.

– origin mid 16th cent.: from Old French ache.

From the Oxford American Dictionary

aitch /āCH/
▶
noun
the name of the letter H.

– phrases
drop one’s aitches fail to pronounce the letter h at the beginning of words, a common feature of dialect speech.

– origin mid 16th cent.: from Old French ache.

The Australian Oxford Dictionary

aitch /eɪtʃ/
▶
noun

the name of the letter H.

– phrases
drop one’s aitches
fail to pronounce the initial h in words.

– origin Old French ache.

Aitch, the name of the letter H regardless of what Danielle’s first grade school teacher thinks.

@Inspired_2write I think you put the VP in a bad spot. If you are ok with her skipping school then you should have written a note for her, even if it was a lie for why she missed school.

@Blueroses Is it real world? Most jobs require your attendance on time, even if you can get the work done at home. We see more flexibility with this over the years, but I would say still the majority of jobs are not that flexible.

@mangeons If everyone is ignoring the dress code for shorts, then it is understood the rule is a bad one. As long as they don’t arbitrarily punish one particular student for wearing shorter shorts Then it seems ok I think. They probably should change the rule though.

@Bellatrix THANK YOU for posting that! My computer is fubarred and I can’t get to any website other than Fluther. I wanted to go look at Dictionary.com but I can’t.

I agree that we pronounce it “aitch” when we say the letter. I’m just saying that just because one teacher wanted to call it “haitch,” to reinforce the puff of air that we ususally use when we a WORD that begins with “H,” (and I do see her logic) I don’t see what the big deal is. Is is going to cause some serious problem in the long run? i just don’t see it as a “I forbid you to say it that way” and a “confronting the teacher” type of issue.

I have been repeating my ABC’s up to K rather obsessively since last night! :)

@rooeytoo Well, that might explain it. Not just one teacher; much of Australia is doing it possibly.

In order to learn and understand how to effectively and appropriately break the rules, one needs to know and understand how to follow the rules. In general, I teach my child to follow the rules, whether it makes sense to her to do so or not. If she has a major issue with any of the rules (other than simple teenage rebelliousness), I further encourage her to come to me with it, and then we discuss what can be done appropriately.

I can’t say most people I know say haitch. Of course, I don’t use it as a test. Say H! Then we can be friends and I won’t have to shoot you! Watch the video up there if you don’t get what I just wrote.

Other than that – follow the rules kids! At least until you’re old enough to break them and argue your case effectively as to why you didn’t.

@JLeslie My point about being preparation for real world was actually a match to what you say. We had to make our own phone call in school to explain absence and justify it.

That matches perfectly well to job situations, depending on the job of course. If you work in customer relations and you are needed on-site to handle the workload, you had better be bleeding or projectile vomiting if you are going to bail on the day.

If you work on a project alone, have everything done and no pressing issues at the office, it’s absolutely fine to call in and say “I’m taking a personal day. Everything you need is on the flash drive on my desk. I also left a hard copy in your inbox. Call me if you need anything.”

@Blueroses Not in the places I worked. I never called in for an unplanned personal day. It depends on the job, I agree with you.

I have to think about where I stand in regards to whether parents should know when their 16, 17 and 18 year old children are “skipping” school.

Of course they should know @JLeslie. The kids could be heading into the start of a huge, life altering mistake.

@Dutchess_III Then you would agree with me juniors and seniors should not be able to call in sick to school, they need a parent’s permission.

Yes, I do agree. I mean, how cool would it have been if I’d been able to call in and say “Valre will be missing 3rd hour because she’s sick, but she’ll be back in time for 4th,” and be excused, when what I was really doing was skipping English class to go to the haunted house out in the country and smoke pot with my friends and screw around, and get back in time for PE, which I loved.

…You know? I don’t think I ever cut an entire day of school, now that I think about it.

I skipped entire days all the time. I never skipped just one class, and we were allowed to leave campus during the day. I either made it to school and did the whole day, or didn’t make it at all. I was never smoking pot, or having some great time when I skipped, I just was too exhausted to wake up at o’dark hundred, you have probably seen me write about that before. I would have done a zillion times better in high school if we were on the flip start time with high school starting latest in the morning.

@jleslie
No onw knew that my daughter had missed days until well“After” the fact. Hense no notes.
That happened over 15 yrs ago.

@Inspired_2write Maybe I remember incorrectly. I thought in high school parents eventually found out about the missed days? I should ask Auggie if she remembers how it was in our school.

@JLeslie and @Inspired_2write They did eventually call my mother about my skipping, but it was after I’d missed 30 consecutive days of one particular class! I loathed the teacher, and just refused to go after a while (history, with Mr. Crumlish). I was amazed it took them that long to notify her, haha. These days, the high school my kids attend would never let it get that far.

@augustlan Oh. If I remember correctly it was 5 unexcused absences and you fail automatically at our school, and they waited until 30 to call your mom? That’s awful. I wound up withdrawing out of a history class because I was failing it and hating it, I don’t remember which teacher it was. So, considering your answer, I guess the school didn’t worry about a high school student having been hurt in some way if they didn’t show up to school. Or, were you just skipping the one class? I wonder if the school was more likely to call if the student missed their first period.

Oh hell! Call the damn ObGyn if they miss their first period, @JLeslie!

LOL.

I skipped plenty of whole days, too, but not 30 consecutive ones. They only ever called her about that one thing. It was weird!

I will backup the school rules simply because they’re rules… unless it’s regarding a double standard or something ridiculous. Example: if my daughter were to get in trouble for a pair of “normal” shorts, I’d tell the school principal that until every popular girl who wears the tiny yoga shorts is sent home, my daughter will continue to wear her shorts without reprimand.

Also, there seems to be a rule that if you are involved in a physical fight, you will be suspended, no matter what. I’ve already told my girls that if someone punches them first, I want them to stand up for themselves and kick ass, damn the rule. After being bullied for years, I say to hell with that stupid rule, and good luck to the principal who tries to suspend my kid for self defense. If I’m legally allowed to shoot an intruder in my home, then my kids are legally allowed to defend themselves in school.