Christians: How do you define obedient in this sentence?

Sheesh. Maybe she’s a strict bible-following Christian. Many entries in the bible talk about how wives (and women in general) should be subservient to husbands (and men in general).
This verse is probably the most straight-forward:
“Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord” -Colossians 3:18

I think it probably means just what he said. There is a philosophy in fundamentalism that goes something like this. (I remember seeing a graphic with umbrellas.) God is the big umbrella and we are to be obedient to God. Under God is the umbrella of the husband and the father, and the wife is under the husband. Then there is the umbrella of the mother/wife and the children are to be obedient to her. Of course everyone is supposed to be obedient to any higher umbrella.
They always give this talk reminding the listeners that men are commanded to LOVE their wives while women are only commanded to obey. With authority comes responsibility.

I really don’t think that they should be talking like this in “mixed” company unless they are trying to recruit men in some sort of Stepford manor.

I do have to say that this does work for some couples. Some people are just not good at the nuance of relationships and need rules and order in order to make it work.

I’m getting over some of my resentment towards the fundamentalists. I still get frustrated when I feel they are misrepresenting what Jesus was all about, but if I want to be a true oil lower I need to recognize that by are just in a different place. The politics of it all still pains me but I’m trying to figure out how to surrender that too.

That sounds super scary. If someone posted that on my FB I would have to delete them. Then again whatever blows their hair back (or skirts up) is none of my business!

You might find this article in Slate Magazine interesting. I pretty well covers the biblical nonsense commanded of women.

Why don’t you ask him what he meant? It may have been something completely personal like she was obedient to a nagging voice in her head and had a lifesaving medical checkup. Or she was obedient to her promises to her family. Who know except your friend. Ask him.

What is a true oil lower, @Judi?

@bkcunningham He is not a close friend, he was a school friend, and I only am in touch with him because of facebook. If it was a close friend I would ask, because they would understand my curiousity. With some people there is a risk when asking a question like that, they get all defensive. Many fundamentalist type Christians feel under constant attack, and they get offended or feel defensive very easily. I just don’t know him well enough to know how he would take it. Plus, I am interested to hear the consensus from our Christian Jellies anyway.

Maybe I’m being defensive for him too, @JLeslie. I’m always intrigued by questions like this. Why would you be so interested in knowing what he meant by saying she was obedient instead of why she was wonderful, for instance? Or why aren’t you as curious about the wonderful blessings he claims God has provided him and his family?

Are you obedient? I’m trying to think if I’d describe myself as obedient. My stepdaughter was here this afternoon and we were discussing her ongoing education. I told her that to me her goal should be a career that makes her happy. Something she loves doing in life. She looked at me and said she loves bossing people and telling them what to do. She was serious. Is she obedient? She is obedient to her boss. She definitely has the stronger personality in her family and is the alpha personality. Her husband is very obedient to her. That isn’t a bad thing.

If I just asked you, are you obedient, @JLeslie, how would you answer?

I suppose he might have meant obedient to God. Might have.

Don’t forget the traditional vows: “love, honor, and obey.”

@Jeruba And don’t forget that in the traditional vows, only the woman says “obey.” Give the arm waving a rest, folks. Anyone who has seriously studied the Bible knows it was written in a time when misogyny was the way of the world, and it was written by men. We know “Wives obey your husbands…” means exactly what it sounds like it means.

Yes, I know, @ETpro. That was the one change I made to the vows when we were married. I don’t knowingly make promises I can’t keep. So I used the man’s wording instead.

“Arm waving.” I saw you use that phrase in another thread about Christians, @ETpro. You said it to Matt Brown. Interesting.

I agree, @Jeruba. He could have meant obedient to
God.

@bkcunningham “Arm waving” in that sense is an idiom drawn from the behavior of TV characters when they realize their argument doesn’t hold water. They begin gesticulating, getting louder and talking rapidly. The theory is if you can’t beat ‘em with brains, baffle ‘em with bullshit.

It’s an old fashioned idea that the wife should be obedient to the man who was considered the head of the household. It isn’t specifically a Christian notion but it does come across as a bit spooky in today’s world.

@bkcunningham It is a question of communicating the actual intent of what he meant. I have said before that some Christians I know define submissive differently than the rest of us, and different than Webster’s dictionary. They say when they use it for marriage they mean the woman will respect her husband. Obedient usually connotes the person will submit to the will of the other person, no matter what they ask. That the person being obedient doesn’t use their own mind. I think most people think of obedient as there is a superior and inferior position in the relationship, and in this day and age we like to think in terms of an equal partnership for marriage.

I would not say I am obedient at work or in my marriage, I would not use the word obedient. That’s exactly what I am talking about, how the word is defined and used. Would you say to someone, “I was always obedient at work?” Or, would it be more likely that you would say something like, “I always showed respect to my manager and did as he asked.” Even the latter sentence probably makes the person sound more passive than we generally use in society today.

I see what you mean, @JLeslie. It is an archaic word.

@bkcunningham The defensiveness is interesting to me, because I think sometimes Christians (I don’t mean all Christians) get so defensive they don’t stop, and really think about how what they say sounds to the rest of us. I appreciated your challenge and openess. In some Christian circles the words are used regularly, so it sounds normal to them. But, like anything else, if someone wants to communicate well they need to know their audience. My facebook friend might not care one way or the other how it sounds, he was making a declaration about his wife that was meaningful to him, and on facebook there is not a specific person he is a ddressing, But, sometimes we hear politicans who use these sorts of words and I have to wonder what are they thinking? Meaning, is it possible they don’t know how bad submissive and obedient sounds to the rest of us? Or, are they just speaking to the people who do know? It’s not that they are Christians, or religious, I am just question word choice. Does God really require the word obedience or submissive, if what God wants is respect? Then use the word respect I say.

I use Strong’s Concordance.

I suppose “obedience” might have a different meaning to someone who has heard it as something to aspire to all his life. But it still gives me the shivers. I would never use it.

@bkcunningham , I have no idea how “true Jesus Follower” auto corrected to “true lower oil.” It must have been some divine intervention reminding me to be “lower.” ~~

If you (are the only person on the planet to ever) have an obedient wife, then you’d know what a blessing that is, and how thankful someone would be in that circumstance !
Most married people can only dream about such a spouse.

Ok, just kidding. A thoroughly obedient spouse would be dull.
A good marriage is a partnership and collaboration of skills and intentions based on consensus.

@Jeruba‘s interpretation is the closest to a positive aspect I can make out of that FB post. A better word to use in that case would be ‘righteous’ which would illuminate the guy’s wife’s good morality without making her sound like an automaton.

@ETpro, I would never have guessed that’s what you mean by “arm waving.” I thought you were speaking of some sort of attention-getting behavior, like kids in a classroom.

I just hollered to my husband in the other room “RICK! AM I AN OBEDIENT WIFE??”
He sighed and mournfully said….. “No.” So sad!

@Jeruba “Arm-waving” is academic-speak for “If I present this idea very confidently and with much fanfare, no one will notice that I have no proof.”

Dogs are expected to be obedient. Not women.

Breaking news. I asked Rick what an “obedient wife” is. He said, “An idiot.” :) Then he asks, “Am I an obedient husband?” He tried to wait until I picked my self up off the floor, but gave up after 5 minutes. :)

If someone called me “obedient”, I would be very insulted. I’m kind of insulted on the guy’s wife’s behalf.

I asked Mark if I was an “obedient wife”, and he just laughed.

Why would you be insulted, @augustlan? Do you mean you would be insulted if it were said in relation to your marriage or if it were said about you in general?

@bkcunningham Look at the examples for “obey” here:

His dog has learned to obey several commands.
He always obeys his parents.
The children must obey the rules.
The children must learn to obey.

I am neither a child nor a dog. I am an adult, and as such, I do not obey anyone. I don’t even expect blind obedience from my children, for that matter; I expect them to think. When I do what someone asks of me, it is in no way about obeying them. I do it because I think that it’s the best thing to do, for any number reasons.

It would insult me in any circumstances, but particularly in my marriage – where I expect to be regarded as a full equal by someone who loves me. Like @Jeruba, I changed my vows in my first marriage (over 25 years ago) to remove “obey” from the script. It didn’t even come up in the second marriage.

I wonder if @JLeslie‘s friend considers his wife a child or a dog? I just asked my husband if I am an obedient wife. He’s still laughing. What the heck does that mean?

I think it means you’re a grown-up non-dog, too, @bkcunningham! ;)

“HEY RICK! AM I A DOG?”
“WTH are you talking about? Get off of Fluther! Now!”
“NO!”
“ok.”

“Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.”

Robert A. Heinlein

@rojo Yes, Heinlein was a misogynistic sexist, wasn’t he.

Fo’ Sho’

I think it is a disgrace if he means that she is obedient to HIM. If he means that she is obedient to God, then that puts a whole new meaning on it. In a Christian context, that is acceptable (albeit a little weird to write in a profile…...........)

Let me see if I can put in in a simple way that doesn’t leave as much confusion as there appears to be. What I feel he was thanking God for was having a Godly that in OK staying in her lane. Topo many secular people when they hear ”submissive” they go to secular meaning of the word, which often means dominated. Of course they will not be able to see it spiritually, how can they if they are not yielding to the Spirit. For a believing wife being submissive to her husband is an act of will, not compulsion. She agrees to follow her husband and let him lead just as you would your commander in an all-volunteer military; if you did not want to take orders from officers and NCOs, which you know will happen, you don’t enlist and get a job at McDonalds (even then you have to mind someone). I think he has the right to say that in mix company just as those without God get to use the “B” word to speak of women; how they use it may not be the way I perceive it, when I hear some guy talking about ”his b****” that speaks more to me that he feels he owns her and she is no more a possession than a submissive, obedient wife from a godly point of view.

“The word most commonly translated submit or subjection is hupotasso. Hupotasso is a military term used to signify a surrender on a battle field. It’s non military usage is different.
It can mean any of the following depending on context:
• Arrange under
• Yield to admonition or advice
• Obey
Hupotasso is not used to convey a sense of involuntary obedience to human command or authority in the New Testament.”

I looked at several papers and all stated that this was the word most commonly used in the New Testament to indicate summission was hupotasso but the only proof offered by any of them that it was not used to convey a sense of involuntary obedience is, basically, because we say it isn’t. They all determine the context in which it is written and then decide what the writers actually meant by the particular word.

@Hypocrisy_Central I have to disagree with you on whether or not it is appropriate to use the terminology in mixed company, at least not for the reason you have given. To me it is just as wrong as, and is used in the same context (Hey, look at me deciding context!) as referring to your wife/girlfriend as your bitch; both are being used to signify ownership. You can’t use one wrong to justify another. Seems like I heard that before somewhere.