NSFW Is it woman's obligation to modify or diminish her sexuality in order to better conform to society and prevent her own victimization?

@rosehips No man has a right to take anything from you that you are not willing to give. Any man that would do that is not a man, but a pig or worse. I can’t get my head around rape. No means no. If a woman is not ready or eager for me I’ll back off. You should never feel you did anything wrong. He was wrong. You got the wrong guy in the wrong place.

I went to a rape prevention class years ago and learned that rape victims aren’t rape because of what they are wearing or because of what they said. It has more to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. At the time we were told that most rapes occur in the early morning as people are in a rush to get to work or school. Most people are not aware of that fact. You could be covered in a big bulky coat and have no make up and still be a victim. Women just have to be aware of their surroundings at all times.

Is it fair that it falls upon us. No. But muggings happen too and we still should be aware. At age 14 I was grabbed by a stranger in my building on my way home from school. I trusted this grown up and almost ended up a rape victim or even a murder victim. I was wearing my school uniform which was in no way sexy. I was just an opportunity that happened along. If it wasn’t me, it would’ve been the next girl to come along. I was not to blame for being trusting. He was all to blame for his actions. The same goes for your attacker.

It all has to do with opportunity and how vulnerable a person is. Two things that can not always be controlled by the victim. But by being alert, a person may lessen the odds of them being attacked.
After my attack I learned to voice my fears out loud if I felt someone was following me. I had a guy follow me on my way home and kept looking away every time I looked his way. I just had a bad feeling and ran across the street and stopped and yelled at him as I pointed his way, for him to stop following me. I did it in front of lots of people in the street. He turned away and walked away from me. Did I look crazy? Sure, but I wasn’t going to be a victim again. I made sure he knew I wasn’t vulnerable, and I wasn’t going to be an easy opportunity victim. I made certain that he could be identified by others.
It is hateful that we have to do that? Yes, but crazy bastard sickos will always exist.

To your bigger question – No. It is not a woman’s obligation to modify or diminish her sexuality to conform to society or to prevent victimisation.

To your other questions.

A Whether they do any good or are proven effective.

Ugly women get raped. Nuns get raped. It’s called victim blaming. ‘The woman was wearing a short skirt so she was asking to be raped.’ No, she did not. The ultimate responsibility for preventing rape rests with men (or women who sexually intimidate men). I’m not suggesting we should forgo all common sense, we do need to consider where we walk and how we act, not because it’s our obligation but because unfortunately some men still don’t get that they don’t have the right to take what they aren’t welcome to. However, when a woman is raped there is no justification for saying she in any way brought it upon herself because of how she was dressed, where she walked or what she’d been drinking. That blames the victim and it’s just plain wrong. Look at the rapes happening in India that are now being publicised. Was the young woman who went out to the cinema with her boyfriend, got a bus home, and was raped, beaten and thrown from a bus and later died, complicit in her rape purely by being on a bus? What about the five year old child who was raped and died? Was she wearing inappropriate clothing or ‘in the wrong place’?

B Whether or not the all that was accomplished was compromising my beliefs and self in the face of fear?

I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking here however, it sounds as though the program you went to did focus purely on what women ‘should’ do to ‘prevent’ rape. So yes, they are placing the onus on women to stop this behaviour. There are people here (on Fluther) who feel this way. As I said in my previous par, yes use common sense but rape is carried out by men (usually) and so that’s where the change needs to come from. We shouldn’t need to walk around in burkas to avoid being raped and that certainly doesn’t prevent rape in countries where women are covered from head to toe. Women can’t prevent rape. They can try to avoid being in places where it might occur but they can’t prevent rape and they are not responsible for it happening.

C Whether these preventative measures have more to do with maintaining the status moral quo of our culture then they do self protection?

They certainly take the pressure off men. They blame the victims. If we want to stop rape happening we have to educate our sons, husbands, fathers that there is never an excuse for rape. This education should and must be driven by men. Men who appreciate that members of their sex are the perpetrators of this crime.

D. Do they in fact stigmatize women, I mean in practice the position they adopt is there is no shame or guilt for rape survivors. But at the same time they teach you how to prevent becoming a victim again. So which is it.

Yes. They do stigmatize women. The message is, if you don’t wear that, this won’t happen to you and that’s just a lie.

@Bellatrix I (gently) disagree with one statement in your answer. Women that sexually intimidate men don’t deserve anything.

Are you trying to be funny or do you think it’s okay for women to intimidate men? I don’t draw distinctions. That sort of behaviour is wrong whoever’s dishing it out. I’ve been sexually harassed at work when I was younger and it wasn’t funny or enjoyable. It made me feel small and vulnerable. I’ve seen that happen to young men who work with large numbers of women. Women who intimidate men or take advantage of them sexually don’t get a free pass from me. A man here asked whether it was inappropriate for women to take advantage of him sexually if he was drunk, and it’s no more okay than if it was a man doing it to a woman.

If you weren’t joking, perhaps you can explain why you think women that sexually intimidate men don’t deserve anything?

I think I get what you meant – I wasn’t saying the woman who intimidates the man gets raped. I meant she takes advantage of the guy. She forces herself on him.

No I was not being funny at all. I misunderstood what you meant. More in a sec but I can tell you’re pissed at me. Last thing I meant.

I’m not pissed at you! No way! Pissed at the idea that women should be made to feel even more guilty after they’re raped. That makes me furious. But not at you :D

Okay. As long as we’re good. Let me try to explain.

When women pursue me it does intimidate me a bit. It doesn’t matter if they’re attractive, not attractive, whatever. I don’t like to be pursued. Come up to me and just be with me and I’m putty in your hands. Be aggressive and my walls come up. But that’s no reason for me to do anything like rape.

I realised that’s what you thought I meant later and added that last sentence. No, I don’t mean that some women are aggressive sexually and that leads men to rape. Rather I meant some women are sexually aggressive and take advantage of men. If a man coerced a woman into having sex, it would be called rape. There’s no difference and whether it’s being perpetrated by a man or a woman, such behaviour is wrong. There shouldn’t be a double standard.

I agree with you. But I don’t know what to do with it.

Hugs @Adirondackwannabe me either. Teach your nephews to be good guys. That will do me.

@Bellatrix Okay, I’ll focus on that. I have a 22 year old teddy bear, and a two year old terror, I’ll work with the two year old. Hugs to you.

I am so sorry to hear that happened to you.

@rosehips You really need to listen to Dr. Jackson Katz’s TED Talk. And any men concerned about what you asked REALLY, REALLY need to listen. It’s 19 minutes and time very well spent.

I agree with @Bellatrix. Unfortunately, rape isn’t something that can just be prevented by doing x, y, and z. Being raped is the action of the rapist, not the victim. They pick their victims for a variety of reasons. There is nothing you did to cause your rape and sadly, dressing/behaving a certain way will not necessarily prevent it from happening again.

In my opinion, and this is absolutely not meant to hurt you, altering the way we live because of what some asshole (nicest term I could think of for a rapist) did to us is allowing them to win and maintain power over us. It took me a long time to come to that and I’ll admit that there are times that I still have struggles related to being raped as a teenager. We have to still continue living and being who we are and who we want to be. I know that’s a lot easier said than done and I truly hope that these words do not upset you. If you ever need someone to talk to, I’m here (just send me a pm).

@ETpro Thank you for sharing that video. Like you, I hope that @rosehips and others watch it as well.

Absolutely not. Fuck that noise.

It depends on your view of men and of the culture you live in.

Here, in the Middle East, the general consensus is (amongst both genders!) that women should hide their sexuality and if not risk being perceived as sluts/whores.

My opinion is that it should’t matter how a girl dresses or even how she behaves. There is no excuse for any man to sexually harass her, leave alone rape her.

Now, if you think of men as potentially dangerous animals that cannot be trusted, though, then you may be wise to hide your sexuality, in order to prevent issues. Just as you wouldn’t turn your back to a lion, after entering his cage. I am curious though, if there are any statistics that would justify this opinion. Do females really run a higher risk, if they are dressed ‘provocatively’?

If not, then even that sole argument in favor of the ‘thou shalt dress modestly position’ is shot out of the water.

I am always on the side of the victim (the woman who was raped). I think there should be very heavy penalties and prison sentences for rapists and other criminals.

But I believe I should have common sense enough not to put myself in harms way. Knowing that there are men who can easily physically overpower me if they choose makes me wary of walking down a dark street late at night, regardless of how I am dressed. I drive defensively, I ride my yamaha defensively, if I see a big dog running loose, I avoid it. So if I act defensively, theoretically that makes me less of a target. But sometimes shit happens despite any precautions I may have taken.

To answer your question more directly though, you must keep in mind my age. I was raised to believe that propriety dictated that I don’t advertise my sexuality. I don’t think it had much to do with the possibility of rape, it simply was not the way to behave. Today everything is different. Movie stars prance around with more flesh showing than is covered, even little girls are often dressed in sexually provocative fashion, so basically, I have no idea what is the correct answer to your question.

@rosehips I’m deeply saddened by your story. It’s difficult, if not impossible, to recover fully from some types of trauma; sexual crimes are certainly among them.

No, de-sexualizing yourself, or making yourself seem less feminine and attractive, isn’t a solution. As we’ve all been told so many times, rape is an act of violence and dominance, not of sexuality. Rape isn’t limited to pretty, alluring girls and women. Elderly ladies get raped. Physically unappealing women get raped. Under certain conditions, heterosexual men rape other men.

When a rape survivor is told that she was molested because she was too “sexy,” someone’s playing the blame-the-victim game. All she did was trust a bad person or be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

@SadieMartinPaul Thank you. I realize my story isn’t unique. It wasn’t meant to be. Just to add the gravity and seriousness of the topic.

It is odd that this hasn’t come up. But relevant is that many of women’s abusers.. One of mine are men we know. So it wasn’t ever enough to be wary of strangers.

@Adirondackwannabe Thanks, it is hard to understand. But standing up for women and injustice is wonderful.

I should also have included men who are raped. I didn’t intend to be sexist.

@Pandora I suppose it is empowering to do take action. That is the premise of such classes.

It is disturbing to always have those concerns in the back of your mind.

I guess I was talking more then clothes: an impulsive hug, stopping to chat with a stranger on a street corner or in a busy unfamiliar place. Going on dates and just enjoying them instead of being careful about what messages you are sending. So on and so forth.

Sorry about your own story. Too many of us have them. It is the thing that silently brings us together.

@Bellatrix Thank you for such a complete answer question and your words. I appreciate your passion.

What I meant was the focus on prevention keeps us in some sort of mode. Whether it’s carrying mace and being careful where you park. Or avoiding certain places. Always walking like you have a purpose in areas that have a danger element and not making eye content.

Things like this are limitations placed on women. They seperate us from the rest of society and keep the fear and vigilance present this approach seemingly never allows us to move on fully. As it is our responsibility not to be a victim again.

@ETpro Thank your for the link I posted it also on my facebook page. I loved it.

@Seaofclouds You are so right in my opinion. I have come to this conclusion. Altering the way we act allows our abusers to win.

@Pied_Pfeffer I hope other people do watch it. It is a valuable contribution.

@whitenoise Thank you for your contribution from another culture. And the statistical data would be interesting to view. It should exist.

@augustlan Nice!

@rooeytoo You make a good point. But treating humans as potential physical threat to your person is a tough thing to do. It is dehumanizing to you and to those you consider as potential threats.

@rosehips – I have never felt dehumanized because I am aware that there are bad people in the world and I act accordingly. I think that makes me smart and street wise. I can’t control the world, I can only control me.

Thanks @rosehips. What I meant was the focus on prevention keeps us in some sort of mode. I agree. I also agree that such prevention is useless against the many rapists who are people the woman knows.

@rooeytoo Forgive me I was projecting.

I notice this especially when I travel because I often travel alone and people watch.

The avoident gaze, or the brief meeting of eyes and then sliding away. How someone will go out of their way to try to maintain an arm’s length distance from a person they are passing without acknowledging they exist.

Even in my city, a person will cross to the other side of the road or move along when another stops alongside to observe or take in what they are. Instead of sharing that moment of appreciation together.

How someone I know will talk about avoiding going for a night walk or morning jog outside because they are fearful. Even though they have enjoyed them in the past. How my friends tell me not to do these things without someone with me.

I almost feel like these behavoirs excerbate the problem. I mean yes they are precautionary. But so is wearing a burka supposedly. Having escorts and safety in numbers feels dehumanizing to me.

That an invitation to dinner or coffee from an acquaintance is an automatic assumption of interest. Or that a hug from the opposite sex is probably an advance. Rather then a friendly gesture.

I resent that if I don’t do these things and more my behavoirs could be viewed as irresponsible.

I have also come to conclude that having to consider these things puts moves us from ptsd to acute anxiety disorder. Then keeps us in this place. I also think that we as social creatures suffer from this.

Not only are just women harmed from this but men are too. And women are making themselves objects. By divorcing ourselves we become one dimensional and unattainable.

Our actions are an admission that our purpose is primarily sexual and that we are physically weaker by in large so we accept the concessions as common sense and being street smart.

Meanwhile the gulf between the sexes widens. And since a large number of violence against women is by people we know and pyschopaths are predominately extroverts avoiding shy indirect people seems silly. I call into question the efficacy.

Whew sorry rant over. Didn’t realize I had that in me.

Maybe you can tell me what precautions you take that are practical.

@rosehips I think you have made some giant leaps there. I don’t run alone in the dark because it is asking for trouble. And the last thing anyone would ever accuse me of is being primarily sexual so that isn’t the reason I don’t run.

Your attitude, to me, seems as if you are trying to make a point at the expense of your own safety.

I am all for young females being taught martial arts as self defence. Then the chance of coming away from an attempted assault unscathed is much better.

I think the gulf between the sexes is because too many women project themselves as sex objects by the way they dress and act and think. That remark always gets me into strife but it is the way I see it. Can anyone tell me why guys wear long baggy board shorts to the beach and women wear next to nothing? Is that not projecting yourself as a sex object, especially since we all now know too much exposure to the sun is not a good thing. The young girls walking down the street in skirts that are too short to be tennis skirts, I just don’t get it. You can’t sit down in those skirts without exposing yourself.

I am old and I accept this world is not a nice place. Even young males are not safe in the club districts, a couple have died this year already in unprovoked attacks. People keep telling me the world is kinder and gentler but I don’t see it.

If you are brave enough to live your life differently, I admire and respect you, but personally I am a chicken.

@rooeytoo It isn’t dark here in the summers. So stumbling, wildlife, visibilty issues are not plausible concerns here. Some people run in the winter, in which case they are always running in the dark.. I am too chicken for that, but not because of the dark! lol.

So if that was the primary reason for stating that I was looking for an excuse to compromise my safety, it is easy to read that way. But as we come from different places probably not.

As to dress, I was raised to dress modestly as a child when the rape occured yes I was pushing boundaries, but I hadn’t even worn shorts in public. Last year was the first year I did that. So from a conservative background I can agree and have a hard time understanding the motivation of some of these women. I also have moments where I say you are only young and stupid once and a body is something that fades. So might as well enjoy it while it is their?

As to self defense I think it is admirable. I have taken a class or two. But those are only effective to a very small extent. Due to my health condition I can’t take direct impact hits and I bruise way to easily. There are plenty of men and women who have reasons why this isn’t an reasonable endeavor for them.

For a while I carried mace. It was big bulky it froze and thawed repeatedly and I doubted that when I needed it would work for me if I could fumble it out of my purse in time. If I carried it onmy key chain it was a reminder and warning to those who weren’t unnecessarily unfriendly or threatening.

Sure there are scary stories. But in reality, statistically speaking, is it much more likely to be injured in a car incident or to be a victim of dv then it is to be harmed in a club. It is just the shock value and randomness of these incidents that sell papers make news and incidentally promote irrational fear.

As to whether we are becoming more or less friendly I can’t speak to that. It is undoubtedly highly subjective. The books I have seen on this I have not read and am not sure how credible they are.

I feel terrible for what was done to you.

I never feel that a woman who has been raped is at fault for what someone else has done to her. As much as is humanly possible, please do not let it force you to diminish in any way who you are or how you express your sexuality. Anything specific you can learn from the situation that helps you feel better prepared to face the world on your own terms, do that. Certain things are known: 1) If you are in the company of friends you trust and can depend on, you may both feel and be safer. 2) If you are offered any food or drink that you suspect for any reason may have been interfered with turn it down. 3) Follow any other safety measures you’ve learned that make sense to you.

I wish I had any wisdom to offer that I could be sure would allow you to live your life fully the way you wish it to be.

@rosehips – yesterday afternoon around 3, a woman was walking along a beach track in a Melbourne suburb. A man approached her and shoved her into the bushes and attempted to sexually assault her. She screamed and struggled and between her struggling and a passer by responding to her screams, the man gave up and ran away.

I guess that makes the point that really you are not necessarily safe anywhere at anytime. So avoiding running in the dark does not make anyone safe.

I don’t think they have caught the guy yet but since Australia is an “enlightened” country who does not believe in harsh punishments, if they catch him he will get a token sentence and be turned loose on society to strike again.

Meanwhile that woman will probably have that thought in the front or back of her mind for the rest of her life. Her sentence will not be just a couple of months with food and board provided by the government, it will be a life sentence.

Makes me sad for her and you and all women really. It seems we are at risk no matter what we do. And it is illegal here for citizens to carry weapons, only the criminals can do that!

@rooeytoo I am glad she got away. I am learning fear can be a great motivator if we don’t allow ourselves to become crippled by it. I hope she becomes stronger as a result.

As to the man and the sentencing. Having seen how the justice system works I found it terribly devoid of justice. Would any sentence really have done any good? It wouldn’t repair or change anything and he will probably come out worse for the time he has spent.

I wish I had an answer. And don’t discount yourself. You are at risk too.

@rosehips – I guess I still believe in punishment. And I get annoyed that people commit crimes and the punishment never seems to fit the crime. But as you say, what punishment would do the trick. Maybe they should remove the offending body parts, of course, would that be a lobotomy or a penisectomy???

@rooeytoo
I’m afraid that a lot of them then will find other ways to express their frustration in even more harmful ways.

Don’t we have scientific research done on these topics that would allow us to take decisions based on some informed data rather than ‘feelings’ and biasses? The US is incarcerating more people than any other country in the world and it doesn’t seem to contribute to a safer society. That is… in comparison to these liberal wooshy countries like the Netherlands.

(Youtube clip) (PDF on crime data)

@whitenoise – capital punishment should avoid more harmful expressions of frustration.

There is a question regarding USA and the numbers in prisons. The linked information in that question stated that actually USA does not incarcerate more per capita, it just has longer sentences so there are more in at one time. There were several countries noted that have higher per capita incarcerations.

Those of us in D.C., and perhaps the entire country, remember Chandra Levy. It took about a year to find her remains—in the woods near a busy, popular walking/running path. She hadn’t done anything to cause her attack. Just like hundreds of other people, every day of every week, she exercised along a well-known route during daylight.

Nobody knows whether Chandra had been sexually assaulted; her remains could no longer tell the story of how she died. Regardless of what did or didn’t happen, it wasn’t her fault.

Did they ever catch the criminal and what was his sentence? Just curious.

He was sentenced to 50 or 60 years I think. Though there was some questions that popped up about key witness etc. I don’t recall what happened after that.