If destroying Moore, Oklahoma was God's plan, why are we rebuilding it?

Because, as we are all well aware of, idle hands are the Devil’s playground.

God just wants to stimulate the construction industry and we need to cooperate.

Because Man has free will. And Man is not necessarily wise.

Meaning we shouldn’t rebuild it @Sunny2?

Because He’ll get tired of destroying Moore, and He’ll quit doing it.

Wait! I had an epiphany! They need to change the town’s name to “No Moore.” I mean, they’re just asking for it with the name they have now.

too sooner . . .

If we’re dumb enough to rebuild New Orleans, Moore is a no brainer.

I am going to bite… @ETpro I know you are sharp enough to realize that the president was not insinuating that God’s plan was the destruction of Moore, but to remind victims that even though they might not feel Him, God has not deserted these people and not to lose faith. If people of faith are comforted by these words from the leader of their country, why mock them?

Ha! Funny.

But seriously this town does seem to be located in a high risk location. If we were homeowners we would consider finding a new location.

God may have a plan, but that does not mean we know His plan. The devastation may be caused by God because like a parent must discipline a child God is our father and he disciplines us. And since I believe we are in His likeness it proves to me that our relationship with him must be in the form of leadership. All mammalian species are governed by it and all species I believe are created by Him.

I know, so now that I have pointed you to a scientific explanation and an explanation that you’ll tell me is far from being “God like”, this is when I will say again as I have said many times before:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

I see 3 things there. God is a leader. And how evolution will come and how knowledge will kill people. It seems pretty obvious that what we are experiencing is a plan. I believe the only way we have a chance to get out of it is through sincerely accepting God honestly into our hearts. So if any place has been devasted it can be ripped down and rebuild many times because I believe when people die no matter how much we may dislike it here, God, the Creator, the Big Kahuna, Jesus whatever you want to call him and even if you choose to not acknowledge Him I think He has a plan for those souls and our souls, of course it is all up to Him in the end.

People are more afraid because of the absense of His mortal body than they are to live in eternal damnation. I prefer to be crazy for now than for eternity :)

For God’s sake, @nofurbelowsbatgirl….what good is it to “discipline” people by killing their children and destroying their homes and not even tell them what they did WRONG?

@nofurbelowsbatgirl what? God did not cause the devastation, a tornado did. Discipline does not consist of God killing people. it simply does not. What is even remotely scientific in your first paragraph?

“How evolution will come…” What does that mean? Evolution is an ongoing process, it isn’t “coming” anywhere.

How exactly is knowledge going to kill people?

How on earth can you argue that believing in God will change weather patterns? That makes zero sense.

I heard the mayor of Moore, OK talking about tornadoes in his state. In the last 15 years OK has had only three tornadoes. Two of them wiped out the town. He’s saying that they will look at patterns and paths to see if they should do anything different when they rebuild. In the mean time their Senator is refusing relief unless it is coupled to a cut somewhere in the budget. I expect he’d be happy to cut social security and let the country’s senior citizens pay for his state. After all we don’t work and we are just a drain on the economy. My last 50 years of working means nothing to people like him.

I’d say it’s just bad luck, @Ron_C. Nothing more, nothing less.

@Dutchess_III there are paths and areas where tornadoes are prevalent. I suspect they would have to move the town many miles from their present location.

I live in Pennsylvania and we have a tornado about once every 40 years. The tornadoes in this area follow the valleys and are reigned in by the hill tops.

I’m thinking it would be easy enough to go back decades and see how many tornadoes have hit that area. I don’t know that you could make decision to move the town based on the town getting hit twice in 13 years.

Same reason people want to rebuild California each time. Do they really think all earthquakes will stop?

There must be a lot of sinners in Oklahoma and California. More than average, I guess.

I know quite a few here personally, Ha.

I loved your post, @SuperMouse: “I am going to bite… @ETpro I know you are sharp enough to realize that the president was not insinuating that God’s plan was the destruction of Moore, but to remind victims that even though they might not feel Him, God has not deserted these people and not to lose faith. If people of faith are comforted by these words from the leader of their country, why mock them?”

@Dutchess_III Do I believe we shouldn’t help them rebuild? Not at all. Just pointing out that we are not always wise.

@Dutchess_III Don’t use the lords name in vain against me because you fail to see through my eyes or understand my comment! Don’t try to belittle me that way because my comment doesn’t happen to go with the normal Fluther vote. I actually feel like I should just take this interest off since when I answer any “God” related question I will not lie and my honesty always turns into a debate and TBH I’m a little tired of swimming like a bleeding jelly in a pool of sharks! OK!

That is similar to why I left this site the last time I left.

Now I don’t mean he is killing people as discipline. If it sounded that way I’m sorry, I did not mean it like that. I think I mean the tornado is the discipline. Not the killing. The killing is what happens because we did’nt or don’t want to follow some simple rules. We don’t have to build there but we do. It is the plan now. Nothing can be done about it. It has nothing to do with the fact about the people being sinners or not. You are talking about punishment not discipline. God is not about punishment, he likes to test our faith but it is not a punishment. Maybe I am completely wrong, of course I am not all knowing, but maybe what he did was a test and not discipline. I’m sure with the knowledge we have been given we have actually learned those difference between punishment and discipline though, haven’t we? And if not I think we are knowledgable enough how to find it.

Ok so let’s face it, we do have the knowledge so why do we keep building in a place we know tornados frequent?

Well I think it’s because we love to ignore things and challenge ourselves that is also shown in the scriptures I had in my last comment.

@SuperMouse If God is the creator of all things then he creates the tornados. And you are right, discipline does not consist of God killing people.

In the Bible God did do things like almost make Abraham sacrafice his child Isaac just to test his loyalty. So what makes you think He wouldn’t test us today?

The link I posted was the “scientific” link. Evolution is a scientific theory. And basically in laymans terms for you Adam and Eve were “idiots” not like modern humans and then their eyes were opened and they became smart like modern humans and then problems started happening.

Gee heres a few. Knowledge brings electricity, electricity brings power, electricity kills elephant. Knowledge brings science, science brings drugs, drugs bring cure, science kills animals. Knowledge brings science, science brings the internet, the internet brings people together, the internet rips people apart, the internet brings cyber bullying, the internet brings a seedy underworld where children are abused for adult perversion…I can keep going but I won’t.

Adam and Eve were just so “un” modernized before they ate from the tree of knowledge that they didn’t even realize they were naked.

‘Knowledge brings electricity, electricity brings power, electricity kills elephant. Knowledge brings science, science brings drugs, drugs bring cure, science kills animals. Knowledge brings science, science brings the internet, the internet brings people together, the internet rips people apart, the internet brings cyber bullying, the internet brings a seedy underworld where children are abused for adult perversion’.

may i please have permission to use this?

@Blondesjon Praise be that he put construction workers back to work, something jis Republican sycophants have steadfastly resisted. But next time, how about convincing his right-wing sycophants we should rebuild crumbling bridges like the Skagit River bridge in Washington state, rather than tear up a perfectly serviceable town? And he needs to have a talk with his right-wing servants about the fact they don’t want to rebuild after disasters, too. Rebuilding takes away too much money they have promised to funnel to their multinational corporate overlords, and we all know who comes first in the GOP when the Corporate Owners of America and the almighty’s interest clash.

Because their might be something good that comes out of the rebuild. Something learned, something positive that is unexpected. It will give jobs to those who need one. It will teach a resident the stregnth and courage they have when they never thought it in them and will serve them later in life when courage and tenacity are needed. Somene can always find some sort of silver lining.

Personally I don’t believe any of it. I do believe there can always be silver linings and things learned. I’d rather be ignorant than go through such a horrific event.

@mazingerz88 One out of every nine bridges in America is structurally deficient. God’s GOP party is standing squarely in the way of putting anyone back to work fixing them. Part of the Jobs, Jobs, Jobs agenda where they do everything in their power to make sure nobody has a job, and Obama gets blamed. Is this what’s drive God to wipe out towns in GOP strongholds? Since he’s omnipotent, couldn’t he just get the Roadblock Republicans to quit blocking infrastructure repair? After all, it’s doing to cost way more to compensate the victims and rebuild the bridges after they collapse than it would to just repair them when you know they need it, and you know construction workers need the jobs.

@Sunny2 What are you saying with that?

@Dutchess_III I love that ephinay. Maybe that’s what God wants. But it would be nice if he’d just tell us instead of destroying a whole town and killing a bunch a people with no mention of why.

@Jaxk I get what you are saying, and if right-wingers admitted the obvious that global warming is real and man made, then rebuilding New Orleans in the way it was done was an exercise in futility. But it is one of America’s great cities and one of its most important ports. Moore, on the other hand, is just a part of the urban sprawl of Oklahoma City. So from a profits always outweigh people perspective, I can’t follow that.

To all I didn’t get to, More Moore later.

@ETpro . . . danny tanner has a river named after him?

@Blondesjon why do you want that? :/

@ETpro Sorry for it the post all Jesufied babe :* you know I can’t hold Him in lol.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl . . . it has a certain lyrical quality, a metre, that makes me smile.

@Blondesjon oh lol I wasn’t sure if it was to mock me :/ I’ve had that happen before although I don’t recall being asked first if my own stuff could be used against me first. LOL. I’m tired. God makes me think waaay to hard. that’s probably good though, with bipolar it’s one of the few things that keeps me focused and disciplined. Well that and exercising and my vegan lifestyle. lol. That’s why I made the reference to Topsy the abused elephant :( who was killed by Thomas Edison. Topsy had enough of the abuse and killed her trainer because she was fed a lit ciggarette. Thomas wanted to show his competitors how dangerous direct current electricity was.

Sorry I’ve gone off topic now and on a vegan rant. As I said I’m tired it’s almost 3 here o_O lol

I’m so tired I’m a “bleeding jelly!” lmfao! OK. Talk Later.

Much like the tornado itself, that theory is blowing wind up people’s arseholes…gawd must have epic flatulence then.

Wow six people gave @Jaxk lurves. Just what the heck would you do with those people who live there all you six of you? Oh plus you @Jaxk. : )

@mazingerz88

The question is why rebuild Moore. It was singled out because it is perceived to be more Christian and ‘fly over country’. New Orleans is below sea level AND in a hurricane zone. Liberals would never ask this same question about New Orleans but feel comfortable with with it in Moore. Just pointing out the hypocracy. I suspect the six you find shocking, got the point.

Thanks @Jaxk. Now I know where you’re coming from. : )

People asked it about New Orleans. I disagree with you @Jaxk. I hear Republicans and Democrats ask why rebuild on the coasts. I distinctly remember Wunday asking a question like that. He is one of our most liberal. My Republican friends in MI all talk about rebuilding near the coasts in FL and other states and how it doesn’t make sense to them. I always just talked back to them about flooding near rivers and tornadoes across the midwest and south kill and destroy quite a bit. Including in MI. I’m not picking on MI, I just went to college there, so I have friends there.

@JLeslie

You may take umbrage with my assessment of liberals, god knows I don’t think much of them. I am sure you can find ancedotale evidence of some contrary views but I stand by my opinion. BTW, I was born in Michigan and have lots of relatives still there. I know Michigan quite well. I even admit to a certain hypocracy of my own in that I like the people in Michigan even though it is rife with liberals :-)

I have a special afinity for Michiganders. Some of the nicest people in the country.

The tornado was the “discipline?” But the killing was….a result of the discipline? Someone broke a few “simple rules” and their child / Mother / Father / brother /sister was killed as a result of the “discipline?” Sounds like the most horrific punishment possible to me.

It kind of sound like you decide to give your kid a swat to “discipline” them for breaking a few simple rules, then lose control and just “happen” to kill them.

Also, relocating won’t do any good. It happened because of the sinning people, not because of the geographic location.

I am not really sure what the debate is? I can explain it till the cows come home but until people stop seeing God as an evil, or a ruler of our lives then there will be no seeing as what He does as good.

He is not trying to have control over us, or kill us, or punish us. All knowing doesn’t mean we get the easy life handed to us, we had the easy life.

This life was made for us and by our own choice because God gave us 2 paths and like today where He gave us knowledge we can use that knowledge to see where the tornados frequent but we ignore Him and I say Him because it is Him who gave us knowledge.

It is all written down in the bible. Like Adam and Eve who ignored Him also a long time ago so we had a choice then and we chose to ignore Him like we choose to do now.

I don’t see God as an evil entity. He casts out evil. I see God as a loving creator. I also don’t see him doing things by accident. He is all knowing, so “accidents” don’t occur.

He knows us all because we are His creation. Again, personally don’t think it has anthing to do with sinning. God forgives so that does not make sense to me.

And we are all sinners so why not just blow up the entire earth? Your idea doesn’t make to me. Why do sinners get to go first? It’s not about that.

Coming from someone who has cheated death many times I can tell you it’s not about that. When it is your time to go, there is no stopping death. The eternal choice is ours now. I choose to accept it. And I can also withstand a little punishment from time to time now for it.

One last thing before I go to the gym. I feel like the creator is not evil because our planet is the only habitable planet in the galaxy that glows so big and beautiful with such bright colors.

So did God create the tornado?

@nofurbelowsbatgirl what? I am so confused! Was the tornado punishment for sin or was it because people build houses where tornadoes hit? If God doesn’t want us to build where there is the chance of natural disaster striking, then why does pretty much every single spot on earth have the potential for some kind of natural disaster? Honestly you aren’t making a lot of sense here.

FYI, the Old Testament is pretty much allegory so events that happened in the Old Testament really don’t hold up as proof of anything.

I know @SuperMouse. It’s like the Japan tsunami was some sort of punishment because the Japanese live there. There IS no place on Earth that is exempt from natural disasters. If there were, we’d have a man-made disaster on our hands by trying to cram a million billion people into 20 square natural disaster-free miles.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl ” don’t see God as an evil entity” What do you call a being that punishes children and grandchildren for what their ancestors did? How about a creature that insists on wiping out the entire human race except for an incestuous drunkard and his family?

It seems to me that Satan is a much nicer entity, concerned with ameliorating the judgements and punishments of “the Almighty”.? I can see God destroying an entire town because it didn’t quite meet his expectation. The worse thing Satan would do would be to open a couple whorehouses.

All of us , every last one, are sinners. We can’t help it. This is according to the Baptist minister I spoke with many years ago. So just keep on moving hoping to get the curse off and all you do is drag it to the next place. Tornadoes can happen anywhere.

@SuperMouse Why not let them take comfort in a fallacy? Because beliefs have consequences. Believing that an imaginary friend will make things right takes the responsibility to make things right off our own shoulders where it rightly belongs. To be certain, that happened in the case of Herbert and Catherine Schaible who let two of their children die rather than take them to the doctor because they ferverently believed that parying to their invisible friend was superior to medical science.

@Ron_C It’s definitely worth exploring.

@Dutchess_III Ron_C is right that geographic location vis-a-vis the jet streams and cold, dry air masses from the high plains colliding with hot, wet air from the Gulf of Mexico are what create Tornado Alley. That area is more tornado prone than any other place on the planet. And the topology of the land does favor tornado formation at certain places above others. So the Mayor’s asking if the town should relocate or look for some way to mitigate the risk seems reasonable to me.

@woodcutter I am sure that Californians know more earthquakes will come. They may reason that their portion of the fault line, having just had its stress relieved, won’t be active again in their lifetime. There is logic to that which doesn’t apply to tornadoes.

@rosehips I wouldn’t just consider moving, I’d either do it or rebuild with EF5 proof construction. It’s expensive, but then so is a cross country move, or rebuilding your house and rebuying all your possessions every dozen years or so.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Good leaders let those they intend to lead know when they ere. If they must discipline those they are leading, they let them know what they are being disciplined for. Good parents are far from being omniscient, omnipotent and love incarnate; but when they discipline their children, they do not leave them to guess why. And they certainly do not murder them as part of the discipline.

You may say that the Bible reveals God’s plan and that it’s up to us to find it. The problem with that is that the book is rife with contradictions. We can use the Bible (or the Koran or Torah, for that matter) to justify loving compassion or brutal attack for the same action. Just pick the chapter and verse that you prefer to apply. That’s hardly clear leadership.

Quoting Genesis doesn’t make the book make sense, any more than quoting verse and chapter from The Wizard of Oz proves there really was a Wicked Witch of the West. Genesis claims all sorts of things we now know are patently false. That fact has resulted in a God, who used to be viewed as enormously powerful and awesome by early bronze age nomads who knew almost nothing about the world around them, now being relegated to an ever shrinking list of things we still don’t understand. The God of the Gaps, as it were.

@Blondesjon Close but no cigar. The river’s not the Sagit but the Skagit. It’s named for an Indian tribe of the same name. But who knows, maybe Bob Skagit was the founding father of the tribe. :-)

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Surely you know that evolution and evidence from archeology shows that human understanding and brain capacity developed over several million years, not in a flash from eating a particular piece of fruit 6,000 years ago as we’d have to believe if we believe the Bible to be literally true. And not to worry about expressing your views. I welcome your doing that just so long as you play fair and understand that those with opposing views have the same right.

@SuperMouse I hope that gives you some clue about the sorts of beliefs that flow from faith in a superpower who controls cause and effect.

@Ron_C I bet that their desire for reelection trumps any ideological cards and both of Oklahoma’s Senators vote for relief. It’s OK to vote no for other states, but as both the hypocrites said, their own case is “completely different”.

@Jaxk I certainly was one of the liberals questioning the rebuilding plans for New Orleans. I see the need of the port city, but as sea level rise continues, the billions spent will prove to be grossly insufficient. We will either have to do it again the right way, or relocate inland. I suspect the later would be far more cost effective.

@JLeslie Hear hear!

@Jaxk Not to worry about your assessment of liberals. My disdain for the ideology that has replaced true conservatism in recent times more than balances the seesaw.

@Dutchess_III One would think Las Vegas would be ground zero for every kind of natural disaster if the punishment theme held true. And how does Kim Jong-un manage to live tornado free?

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Looks like I need to shut up now and let you guys debate. Personally, I doubt there is a God and I am pretty darned certain that it there is one, the God of the desert isn’t the one. That God is quite clearly created in man’s image—and early bronze age man at that. Even the story of the captivity in Egypt and Exodus has now been proved false by Israeli archeologists. Mind you, these were people who fiercely wanted the story to be true, because it is the entire rationale for the properness of Zionism. But the evidence convinced them the story is a fabrication. It never happened. Likewise, there is no archeological evidence of a Jesus. There was no census requiring that people go to their ancestral home. My guess is there really was a cult-leader rabbi that amazed the people of the time, and that led some to found a religion in his name. They came up with the fabrication of the census to try to explain away his origin in Nazereth, and instead have him of the House of David, and born in Bethlehem.

@ETpro Scientists have been warning for years now that “the big one” is ready to pop anytime on the west coast. Californians should be getting the hell outa there faster than they have been.

I am sure I said that in one of my comments. I guess if you want to believe he “killed” the people then again you are looking at it again as God is evil.

God also created the tree and gave us a choice, but we made our own choice. You see, it was a test. Just like Abraham was tested when God asked him to sacrafice his only son. The people dying are the “sorrow” that God told Eve we would get for making the choice against Him that we did. And the only justification we can receive is if we honestly and truly accept God into our hearts because then when devastation does happen or when we do die our souls will be with God because we will have proven to Him that He is our one true creator.

Who gets to go? I have no idea. But if a tornado did not go through Moore I believe those people would of died a different way, death is death and having knowledge of all of it is another thing that God said we would have for eating from the tree of knowledge.

And unfortunately when it is your time to go, it is your time to go. And that is why I believe there are people who can survive the unsurvivable.

@Ron_C Well that is all in your idea about how you look at Him. That is not my issue. There is nothing I can say to change your mind and believe me I am not here to do that. You can shun Him or accept Him, that is all up to you.

@ETpro :) lol. I respect everyone’s beliefs even yours. As you respect mine ;) And this is about probably the one thing that we don’t agree on. I try really hard not to grafitti your comment wall with christ like pictures. Suppperrr talk soon.

@ETpro straw man argument. These people (for the most part I believe) are not going to sit around and wait for God to rebuild their city. They are going to do what has to be done to rebuild and as they are putting in the work, take comfort in the belief that there is some reason for this super challenging test. There are of course people such as the Schaible family, but there are zealots of every stripe – including atheist. These people are the exception rather than the rule.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl May the Great FSM have mercy on your soul (whatever a soul is). :-)

@woodcutter I did get out of there. Was there for the big LA quake that killed 64 people.

@SuperMouse When you have airheads like Bill O’Reilly claiming that Tide comes in, tide goes out, you don’t know why. as a proof God exists in order to control the tide, you have con men arguing that global warming is impossible because God controls the climate, you have policy at every level in America shaped by belief in an invisible friend, it is no straw man argument.

So, this really was just an excuse to make fun of people. Sad.

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@bkcunningham Thanks for posting all the things we can do to actually help those impacted by the tornado. I wish I had thought to do that. But I have been quite clear on my concern about claims that the tornado was all part of some grand plan God is playing out in everyday life and the harm such thinking does. If you cannot see from that that this post was not an attempt to make fun of people, then I don’t know how I might explain it. You’re at liberty to claim it’s all about making fun of others. I hope most can see that is not at all my intent.

I always loved the whole idea of this God that created man and said “look you can have ANYTHING you want…...but only if you remain totally fucking ignorant to the world around you. Once you start asking questions it’s all over. Don’t you dare think about eating from the tree of KNOWLEDGE, it is tantamount to joining Satan himself.” Sounds like a real loving guy…

I feel like I remember someone else in history that wanted to control the distribution of knowledge, something about killing intellectuals and burning books…

I didn’t see where you answered my question @nofurbelowsbatgirl. Did God create that tornado?

I am not sure what to say anymore. Actually I did answer your question, I just didn’t answer it to your liking.

I answered the question how I wanted so you can’t call me out on it afterwards. I am just covering my bases. Instead of leaving one open so you don’t slip a blatant use of my religion against me as an attempt to possibly throw me off and try to have me lose control again. :P

I mean it is obvious that my beliefs are different than others, but I can’t take the onus because I don’t have all the answers. I am not all knowing.

My beliefs are my own. As are your, are his and hers and everyone else. I don’t even go to church. I just profess my love of Christ through some small cultural teachings and by some of the ways He has affected my life. I have also leaned on Him in times of need and He was the only one who was there. And for some people that is their reality regardless of the fact that his mortal body is not their reality. Sometimes He is all you have left. In times of devastation I know I looked His way. And for others they turn their cheeks. It’s not really my problem. And with that, I have said all I need to say. I am going to go donate.

I’m sorry. I guess I missed it. I guess I was expecting a “Yes he did create it.” or “No, he didn’t.” I’ll look again.

OK…were you saying that the people have a choice of living there or not, and God told them not to live there and they ignored Him?

@Dutchess_III I am saying that people have a choice because He gave us that right from the beginning so He won’t take that. And I’m not really directly saying that God told people not to live there. Although He did in Adam and Eves time. I am just saying that with the knowledge we were given from the tree and that has just been increasing so today we know that tornados frequent that area, yet we still build there. In the time of the bible they were not very modern and could not even explain pillars of salt without thinking they were their loved ones actually being turned into salt.

So in a sense I am saying we have the knowledge today that the tornadoes frequent that area because we were given the knowledge and have grown and modernized in a way that we understand the natural disasters now, but we still live their anyway. So we have the knowledge to make the right choice but we still make the other choice just like when we ate from the tree of knowledge, so even though we have modernized and gained knowledge we still haven’t really listened. Also I just have to add that, even if we did find a place that was disaster free the chances of all of us fitting there would be tremendously low. And that is something else that was mentioned to Eve after eating from the tree of knowledge was that He “would greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception”.

But I am also trying to say that I believe that is His plan whatever His plan is. All we can do is suffer the consequences, because the plan is in motion and hold Him faithfully close to our hearts, come together and support each other as much as we can here on earth until it is our time that death comes along for us and only then we will be sent to the kingdom of heaven or somewhere else. Any one who chooses any other choice still has the right to be loved, and has the chance to be saved. None of that stuff is up to me.

So God actually had nothing to do with the actual tornado? I mean, he didn’t create it or control it or direct it?

Well I didn’t say that. I am just saying that we have been given the knowledge we have been given the choice, and we choose to live where tornadoes frequent, albeit we don’t have many other options do we. That is part of his plan, whatever that plan is. Sorrow I suppose is one of the consequences.

I’m so confused!

@Dutchess_III, did your family go to church when you were growing up? Were you raised in church, as they say?

We choose to live where the tornadoes are and that is God’s plan. Which is it? Our choice or God’s plan?

I was born again in the 80’s, but it’s this kind of thing that caused me to start scratching my head. That, and the fact that the pastor/preachers would get upset if I questioned anything they said, which I don’t understand. If what they were saying was the absolute truth, why get upset if someone questions it?

@Dutchess_III It is very complex. If they got upset at you that is wrong.

@JLeslie It is both. Why can’t it be?

It shouldn’t be complex @nofurbelowsbatgirl. It should be simple.

It can’t be both @nofurbelowsbatgirl, because one negates the other. If it’s Gods PLAN then we have no choice. If it’s our CHOICE then we do.

@Dutchess_III If it was simple it would be easy. then God wouldn’t have to test us.

You weren’t brought up in church then. You started going and got saved when as a teenager? How long did you go to church? Did you study the Bible? Do you know about the fall of Lucifer?

Not really. That is how you see it. I see it differently. I think that Gods plan may be a series of tests where within those tests we get to make choices.

Are you saying that God makes it complicated so he has a chance to test us? Kill some kids as a test?

My mother was Catholic @bkcunningham, but after the church refused to recognize her marriage to my father, 15 years and 3 kids after the fact, she walked away and choose a new religion. But not completely. Toward the end of her life she often recited her Hail Marys. I have her prayer beads. I know the Hail Mary. I was “raised” in the Methodist church, . I went to church for 35 years. I raised my kids in the church (Pentecostal.) My daughter went to a private Christian school until 6th grade. I know about the fall of Lucifer, that he was God’s special angel but went to the dark side, like Darth Vadar, etc. etc. etc. What does that have to do with anything?

The pastors/preachers got upset @nofurbelowsbatgirl because they couldn’t answer my questions.

@Dutchess_III No. I am not a priest. When I get a little more well versed in the area of God I will let you know. I am probably not the first person you should be seeking advice on the matter. The very fact that you are wondering and have questions on the matter tells me though that you don’t actually have all the answers either. I personally do not think it is about killing, you keep putting the emphasis on killing because that is what impacts us now but is not about killing. If people are saved then they get to go to the kingdom of heaven and experience eternal happiness, that is much better than eternal sorrow, so actually those children are being saved are they not?

I understand that’s why they got upset, I am just stating that it seems wrong that that is why they got upset.

Some believers don’t think this is God’s world. This isn’t the world God intended. That was Eden. Bad things happen in this world. It isn’t heaven. Get over it.

I’m not looking for advice, @nofurbelowsbatgirl.

Wow. This isn’t the world God intended. How can that possibly be @bkcunningham? It’s the only world He created!

Yes, bad things happen in this world, but I don’t think there is any supernatural explanation for it. As far as “Get over it,” not a problem. I haven’t had a child killed, and then had people say, “It was God’s will.” THOSE are the people who need to “get over it.” Tell them to “get over it”, not me. Post it on facebook to the parents of Moore and Sandy Hook. Tell them “It was God’s will. Get over it.”

@Dutchess_III Actually as I just said “If people are saved then they get to go to the kingdom of heaven and experience eternal happiness, that is much better than eternal sorrow”. My guess is I personally would not say to a non believer that it was “God’s will” that they lost someone.

But I have lost many people that I love dearly that were suffering here on earth and had this very sentence said to me and I understood it. And too me it is a relief that they are no longer suffering. It is the same relief an person who commits suicide wants to feel, I know because I have committed suicide, I just happen to have the chance to live to tell my story. So that was not God’s will.

Also “get over it” is just a very unkind unfeeling way for someone to say to anyone else who has never lost something or someone dear to them or maybe just doesn’t give a hoot.

“Also “get over it” is just a very unkind unfeeling way for someone to say to anyone else who has never lost something or someone dear to them or maybe just doesn’t give a hoot.” I agree totally.

@bkcunningham May I ask why you asked all of those questions about my religious up-bringing?

I didn’t say those words, @Dutchess_III. You did. I didn’t say, “Get over it., not a problem” in the context you are implying. That is really cruel of you to try and twist that and use children’s death as an insult to me. Seriously.

I didn’t say it was God’s will either.

If this is how you spoke to your ministers, I can understand why they got upset with you. You are trying to put words in my mouth. I answered your question.

I can’t discuss something as simple as healthcare with people on Fluther without it turning into a battle, I’m not going to discuss my faith and my personal beliefs on a thread that was started to be cruel. I only jumped in because I couldn’t stand by and watch you playing games with @nofurbelowsbatgirl without stepping in.

Why don’t you give it a rest? What is your point anyway? Are you really interested or are you just trying to prove you can out maneuver someone in an argument and make yourself look clever? It doesn’t to me. It makes you look mean.

I was wondering about your knowledge of the Bible. Some of the questions you were asking seemed very childish to me.

For example, @bkcunningham?....?

I am sorry I lashed out at you @Dutchess_III. I am finished with this discussion. Peace friend.

So.. why DID you lash out @bkcunningham?

I PMed you @Dutchess_III. It is personal.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl It seems like picking and choosing; rationalizing. But, honestly, I have no problem with your religious beliefs. I am not here to argue or change your mind. I’m just interested in how and why people believe what they do. If it makes sense to you, if it brings you some sort of order, peace, or comfort, it’s fine with me. I don’t think I am more right or wrong than you.

I’m Jewish, it’s hard for me to believe it was some master planned for us to be slaughtered by Nazis, I guess some Jews did leave Poland, Germany, Austria, etc, so we didn’t get killed, tortured, or practically enslaved. My family came from Russia and Latvia originally, I guess the Pogroms could have been some master plan and the suffering, poverty, death, and psychological damage from horrific abusive conditions might have been God’s will? Some reason behind the suffering. We can keep going back in history, but I won’t bother.

I find some Christians seem all ok with suffering, they get emotional and feel some sort of, I don’t know, spiritual feeling from the suffering Christ endured. I never really understood it. I still don’t understand when people say Christ died for our sins. I don’t really understand what it means. I asked a Q once about it if I remember correctly. I thought I was beginning to understand and now for the life of me it has left my brain like when I sat in history class in school and the lesson just didn’t stick. Some eastern religions also accept suffering. I think most Jewish people have little tolerance for it. We don’t accept suffering we push back hard. We don’t accept illness and death we become scientists and doctors and fight it off. We become lawyers to fight the injustices.. Don’t get me wrong, I realize it is an overgeneralization everything I wrote, but culturally I see a difference to some extent.

@JLeslie Before I had accepted Christ fully into my life I was tormented all the time. Now that I have accepted Him my life is so peaceful. It’s not that I feel ok with the suffering. Because you are talking to someone who comitted suicide.

And again I can’t say I’m fully Christian. My roots come from Christian teachings yes but I often refer to aboriginal cultural teachings, and sometimes even to Roman catholic teachings because I have had the chance to have learned about as much teaching in each of those religions as I have in christian religion. So sometimes I may seem more of one than the other or I may mould all three together it just depends on what I remember. That is why I say I am not specifically christian.

But I think maybe you are talking about the same thing as I am. I guess Christians just talk to God and accept Him into their life so they can go to heaven and have that take away their suffering. I don’t think christians like the suffering but maybe accept it because with the suffering there are many asking God “Why?”

It’s not really about liking maybe it is about accepting it but it’s about knowing in your heart that in death there is truly no more suffering.

You may get times in your life where the suffering is little but it will come back and you can never push it behind and forget it. No matter how much. Any type of stress or suffering is enough and it can build up and turn in to some type of ordeal.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I have gone through significant psychological and physical suffering. I never asked why. There are things ai have learned from my suffering, I have even been able to help others because of my suffering, but I still would have much rather avoided it, or not have gone through it. I agree acceptance can bring some peace, because fighting for comtrol over our bodies and environment can bring on great anxiety and anger, but acceptance the extreme that we feel powerless isn’t always good. I don’t need God to accept that bad shit happens. But, many many people find comfort in God, He is in a way symbolic for the person to hand their problem over to Him. I know for the religious person He is not just symbolic, I am not dismissing their belief as a misguided one, I only mean it is a similar behavior, semantics, for how many people handle adversity. In the extreme, like the religions that don’t allow medical intervention, they believe God heals and has control over everything. In the atheist world god has no control. Then there are all sorts of variations in the middle.

As far as afterlife, I just can’t wrap my brain around the concept of a God who cares more about worshipping him than the behaviors we practice in relation to ourselves and others. But, again I am Jewish. I used to find it quite offensive that Christians think only Christians can get into heaven.

You say you commited suicide, what exactly did you mean to say there? Do you mean to say you attempted suicide?

I’ve asked ‘Why.’ When I ‘believed,’ I have to say it was a huge comfort and it gave me strength, even if it was all psychological. I was all alone, just me and the kids, no one was there to lean on, to ask for help or advice. I can’t help but wonder if simply ‘believing’ allowed me to stay on my feet until the next good thing came along.

(Everybody can get into heaven @JLeslie. Except not gay people. Or Black people. Or Jews. Or Hispanics. Or circumcised males. Or women with breast implants. Or Vietnamese people. Or American Indians. Or people who use food stamps while in their pyjamas. And especially no Jellies can get into heaven. There are a few more but I don’t think the server can handle the whole list, but other than that, everybody can get into heaven. )

@JLeslie Well I mean I committed suicide. Attempting to commit suicide to me says someone is just crying out for help and maybe takes a few pills or is emo for a little awhile. I did not do that.

No one around me had any clue. I went about my life as normal. But I had a dark secret. No one knew I was secretly planning my own death.

On the day I swallowed 60 liquid gel cap pills. Within 10 minutes things started going black it was quite peaceful actually. My husband a paramedic at that time decided to come home for lunch because according to him he just had the overwhelming urge to see me which didn’t happen very often and its why I planned it in the morning and he saved my life. A few more minutes and apparently I was a goner. :/

I’m not proud of it, I put him through a lot and at the time I actually thought I was doing him a favour and that he could handle it because he had seen many dead or dying people.

But I never thought about the fact that those people weren’t the love of his life. I wasn’t thinking. I was mentally ill and unstable and fortunately my husband understood that. I believe God gave him to me to help me in life even if not for my lifelong experience and while he was here he did amazing things not just for me but for so many peoples lives.

@Dutchess_III God gave us the ability to have emotions so He understands them, and if we get mad at Him He understands that.

I believe that Jesus was God in human form and He wanted to show that to us that, He bleeds like all of us and He suffers just like all of us. So when you weep so does He @Dutchess_III and according to what I also understand that is supposed to be the idea.

We are supposed to look to God for guidance. If you felt as you put it ”‘believing’ allowed me to stay on my feet until the next good thing came along.” Then that to me symbolizes that God was doing for you what He was meant to do. It’s the “footprints in the sand” idea if I may.

Of course the whole crux of the idea is that you are waiting for the “next good thing” because that is what He told Eve that women would always suffer and be “dependant” so to speak, my guess that means not having the need to feel lonely.

If you really look into the scriptures they are very smart and eloquently written and filled with amazing details about human nature even though they did not know as much as we do at this time, it is astounding to me and for that reason I don’t need to see his body.

Places like Babylon are mentioned in the bible. We know it exists because of its archeological ruins. There are also many others named. But we even have problems today with bodies and people disappearing so this to me is something I can overlook, again for me lack of His body holds no part in how I relate to Him, I suppose as lack of my husband body holds no part in the fact that I talk to him on a daily basis also.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl Ok…. so I’ve been reading through this and I’m just trying to put it all together but having some major problems maybe you can clear up a few things for me.

First, do you believe in fate? By this I mean is everything already predetermined or are you more of a semi fate type of person? The big things being predetermined but our reactions left to choice.

Did God plan for these tornadoes as a way to discipline us for living in areas we shouldn’t or for being sinners?

Do we have free will to chose where we live or what we do or is that part of God’s plan?
If the latter it seems rather unfair to discipline us for doing something that has been preordained by a higher power.

Is it ok to discipline someone for their actions if that discipline results in the death of the disciplined?
If so, how in the hell is one supposed to learn from it? Or am I, over here in NJ supposed to learn from the follies of those in OK?

If these victims are being disciplined for something, do they still go to heaven?

You say part of God’s plan to bring these people to heaven for eternal happiness….is it also part of God’s plan to cause all the victims of the loved ones to lose someone they dearly cared about and to suffer because of it? Is it God’s will for a parent to lose their only child at a young age? I mean the child is in heaven now so it’s all good, who cares about the parents left here on earth that have to think about their lost child every single day for the rest of their life.

“Places like Babylon are mentioned in the bible. We know it exists because of its archeological ruins. There are also many others named.” And Star Wars mentions the Big Bang and many known galaxies, what is your point?

@nofurbelowsbatgirl In America usually committed suicide means you are dead. When someone tells me they attempted suicide I do not assume they were crying for help. I think most people who try to kill themselves want to end their life. Some do it with a plan to get found before dead, but I think that is very few people. I actually hate the whole “cry for help” label some people put on suicidal individuals. I think some suicidal people want to end their life, but not necessarily die, it’s just that the pain is too great, they just want it to stop. Anyway, I understand why you don’t like to use the word attempted, but at least here, by definition, that is what you did, maybe in your country it is defined differently.

If believing God sent your husband to you makes sense to you, I have no quarrel with it. Like I said, I am not trying to change your mind. I can tell you my opinion, and how I look at life, but that is my set of beliefs, you don’t have to agree with them.

@uberbatman ugh. That’s a lot for me to address. Really I could be doing this all day long, because let’s face it no matter how many times I explain it, people have their own ideas. So I’m not sure what the whole idea is here except to drag me through some kind of ridiculous neverending game, which could potentially in this day and age actually be toxic more than helpful.

So I will try to answer your questions to the best of my abilities. But I’m not doing it for all jellies who come into the convo because I refuse to continue to be flamebait if that is all this is because unfortunatley I do have bipolar and being under stress can make my illness flare up. So I just do not want any flare ups.

I have trust issues so I do not go to church, because of the many people who say they are faithful and they are not. So I choose to worship Christ in my own way. Does that get me into heaven? I have no clue.

Anyway, Babylon is a real place, Star wars is fantasy. The Big bang is a theory, a theory that was brought up after we found many galaxies. So if we go by your explanation then and “Religion” were to be “Star Wars” and if the bible were to be the “galaxy” and “God” were the “big bang”, then God can’t be a theory because He was mentioned in the bible when we discovered it as He was not something we made up theoretically after we discovered the galaxy or in this case after we discovered the bible and upon reading is when we discovered God and Jesus, you have to be an asshat to not understand who the story of the bible is written about we just don’t have proof of His body. That does not mean it is theory. If some ones family member dissapears without a trace, does that mean they only theoretically existed because the family has no evidence of that persons mortal body?

Sorry they didn’t have a particular system good enough for you that tabulated the existence of people back in the day! :/

Your asking me a question I cannot answer. How do I know God’s plan? I’m not God. Anything I say here is my opinion. I am in no way affiliated to Him other than accepting Him into my heart which gives me no authority or say so over what He does.
Which then makes me question the validity and all the silly hoopla surrounding my comments.

“Who cares about the parents”, I’m actually astounded that you would say that! You are right! No one gives one iota about the parents who lost children! Now that IS bullshit. As I said we are made in God’s image, God was Jesus in human form to show us that He suffers with us and bleeds just like we do and dies just like us. He suffers with us.

AFAIK, I believe anyone can go to heaven, as long as you do not shun Christ out of your heart, but again I don’t have first hand accounts so I could be off.

You will only learn if you allow yourself to learn something. Ignorance is the easy road to take.

You have free will, so to speak. Although if you really want to get down to it you don’t really have “free will” do you? Free will to me means there are no rules and well we all know that just isn’t the case is it? No matter how you look at, your are being ruled by some type of higher power and that’s even if you choose to eliminate God from your equation all life has some type of “rules.”

Do I believe in fate? I don’t think so. That is where I believe it’s a plan or a reason. I don’t really have an answer for that and that is probably why it’s confusing when I do try to answer.

@JLeslie I understand. I didn’t think they put a “length” of death on a suicide. But I am a suicide survivor.

Thank you and I agree.

You took @uberbatman comment about ”...who cares about the parents…” out of context. He never used the word “one iota,” for one thing.

In context he said “Is it God’s will for a parent to lose their only child at a young age? I mean the child is in heaven now so it’s all good, who cares about the parents left here on earth that have to think about their lost child every single day for the rest of their life.”

His point is we DO care about the parents, but are we not supposed because their child is now in heaven and happy, even though God killed them because their parents, or their neighbors, or people in Kansas are sinners?

That’s nice.

@Dutchess_III is exactly right about what I meant. It seems you took a lot of what I said out of context and did a whole lot of dodging/contradicting. It’s cool though.

Sure I did! Sorry I can’t read properly then I guess. Contradicting? If you want to be all “logical” now you shouldn’t of left me trying to explain your false continuum.

Usually I am never logical when it comes to God, that is my right, but usually I’m not logical about much.

I feel like you are saying that now because you don’t like my answers.

I believe you both know what I said and understand it and you just don’t want to admit that. I don’t believe I read your comment wrong at all. I believe you are playing games with me because it seriously seems that silly for you to be almost so remiss about my comments but everytime I answer you seem to have so much knowledge in the area that what I say doesn’t even matter, so what IS THE POINT?

You’ve made your choice and I’ve made mine. Do you guys really have to make it this hard for christian jellies always? Shall we turn the tables? I don’t have that interest because your religion is your choice, not mine, I have no use in parading you and your feelings and beliefs around the town square as if this were the Salem witch trial.

The fact that you have made your choice but continue to keep poking me for knowledge proves to me that there is something more to it. Because it was you who asked a question first “Is it God’s will for a parent to lose their only child at a young age?” To which I addressed your question with “etc…He suffers with us..etc”. If you don’t like my answers why do you even ask me? That is why I question the validity of it all. I could of left well enough alone at my very first comment.

It’s OK @nofurbelowsbatgirl.

We Jellies do love our logic, though. That’s all this was leading to. We couldn’t understand the logic that said God was/wasn’t behind the tornado. We couldn’t understand whether you were saying it was all part of God’s divine plan, or it came as a result of disobeying. That’s all we were trying to pin down.

We can stop now, though.

Do you live anywhere near Benninghton, @Dutchess_III?

Where is that?

Um, no. They’re up north. I’m way down south, by the OK border.

Central. Near Salina. A big tornado is hitting.

Right now?

I’ll turn the TV on.

Yes.

They’re talking about tornadoes in OK, Nebraska—storms north and south of us. Don’t see anything specifically about Bennington.

It is on the ground now. NE of Salina. Four miles from Bennington. http://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=KSZ034&warncounty=KSC143&firewxzone=KSZ034&local_place1=&product1=Tornado+Warning

Tornado watch.

Watching. That’s all we do this time of year, is watch the weather channel. Even in the sports bars.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl It has nothing to do with not liking your answers. You just aren’t making much sense and I was just trying to figure out what you were saying.

“Do I believe in fate? I don’t think so. That is where I believe it’s a plan or a reason. ”
If there is a plan then that is fate. It’s pretty simple.

It’s becoming clear that your answers just run around in circles without saying much though so I guess I’ll be moving on.

I can read the radar. Several years ago I was watching the radar on the Weather channel, and I came up off the couch. It wasn’t near us. It was near Greensburg, Kansas. I grabbed a screen print and posted it to Wisdm. It destroyed that town.

Yes, @uberbatman.

Relevant.

Waiting for it to load. There are tornadoes all around. Status quo for this time of year.

How is that relevant to tornadoes, @bkcunningham?

The entire thread.

This isn’t about religion or atheism. This was just about trying to understand someone’s reasoning. That’s all. And it’s done.

That’s what I was trying to understand to, @Dutchess_III. Trying to understand people’s reasoning.

Well, I never did. Did you?

Not really. I would hate to think it is just to make fun of people and out of meanness. It makes me sad and mad at the same time. I’m just about Fluthered out.

@bkcunningham Relevant

Let’s not run people off over religious differences.

@uberbatman @Dutchess_III Well its too bad that you just can’t accept what I say as my opinion, I’m not out looking for votes to run for president and it’s not like I hold some type of authority over anything. And thats my point whether I’m logical or illogical about it, why should it matter what my resoning is? Whatever my reasoning is, it works for me. If anyone else finds something they like in my reasoning well then that’s great! Usually I state my opinion and move on, I am not a person who likes or creates drama. But when confronted I do not like to back down and if my bipolar is raging I can strike with a vengeance. So I’m thinking I should just take the “God” and “religion” related interest off my profile, it causes too much stress for me on Fluther. :( I wish it didn’t.

@bkcunningham Don’t leave Fluther :)) More tornadoes ;(

We can certainly accept it as your opinion @nofurbelowsbatgirl. And no, you shouldn’t take it off of your profile. No one goes after you (that I know of) because it’s on your profile. We were just responding to your comments here, on this question, trying to understand, which would have happened even if it wasn’t listed on your profile.

@Ron_C you said, “I heard the mayor of Moore, OK talking about tornadoes in his state. In the last 15 years OK has had only three tornadoes.”
Not according to this source. More like 17. Looks like they had a nice break between 2000 and 2006 (which I don’t buy!) Nope. Did more research. In 2000 alone they had 44, according to NOAA! In 2001 they had 61 Anyway, not sure what the mayor of Moore was talking about.
Maybe my first stats (below) only accounted for tornadoes that killed people.

1 – 1998
1 – 1999
1 – 2006
2 – 2007
4 – 2008 (all in May. April showers bring….)
2 – 2009
2 – 2010
1 – 2011
1 – 2012
2 – 2013

Oooooh… @bkcunningham. The Bennington tornado last night was a bad one

My God, @Dutchess_III.

I am reluctant to answer but for some reason I feel compelled. The power of christ compels you! :/ lol

Anyway, if God started intervening in all evil doings sure it seems fantastic at first, but where would He draw the line or when would He draw line? Say goodbye to sleeping in, say goodbye to that certain sexual act that you love, Speeding oh I don’t think so..thinking about speeding? Not likely! Cheating on your taxes? Not. Don’t even think about hitting your husband on the arm with that rubber band! Sounds like fun at first until you realize that you no longer have any free will at all.

When God chose to destroy all mankind in the Flood: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” Genesis 6:5

Sin is indefinite in our lives while we are on this earth. I don’t think every natural disaster is caused by God We don’t just deal with His discipline for our disobedience, but we deal with the natural aftermath resulting from sin and God uses these disasters to bring us together as @Dutchess_III politely pointed out to me:“His point is we DO care about the parents”. God uses our problems for His glory and our Good.

i’m almost 100% certain that speeding, cheating on your taxes, and shooting rubber bands are not ‘evil’

Nor is sleeping in. I mean, if it is, I’m for sure going to hell!

it does relate to the snuggliest deadly sin, sloth, hence it’s omission from my definitive list of ‘not evil’

^ lol I knew you’d say that, but you could actually be wrong. What do you think? That the rules no longer would apply?
Or you can bend rules to your liking? And prison is just so snuggly too right?

Speeding, cheating on your taxes are not evil? You just have free will right now and don’t get caught, but in todays society they are considered illegal for a reason.

So let’s say God comes back and makes us be good not only by His rules but by our own societal rules, then you’d most certainly be committing evil while speeding, cheating on taxes and so on. You want to let the lesser of the 2 evils slide? Those are usually what lead to greater evil.

Besides committing evil isn’t just about the act itself, it’s about intentions and breaking certain rules. That’s just basic human law. When we break one rule we want to break more. Prison proves how much we don’t like it when our free will is taken. And if God’s law said to get up at 8 for work and you sleep in then you would of broke the rule.

But do you see how even getting rid of evil isn’t even good enough for you? He hasn’t even done it and your already bitching moaning and complaining about it. :/

Is sleeping in really evil?

Helping slaves escape from their masters and minorities/women voting were illegal at one time. Was breaking these laws evil?

One of the key moments in American history is The Boston Tea Party which basically told Britain that we weren’t going to pay our taxes. Was this evil?

When God comes back He’s going to face-palm, take His own name in vain, and go get quietly drunk for the next couple thousand years.

Well according my “boss” when I come into work late yes I’m evil, because I’m putting everything and the entire company at jeopardy. If God said I had to be to work by 8 or I’d be committing an evil sin and I’d face immediate judgment you bet I’d be there with bells on every morning at 7:55 Are you stupid? Nooooo!

Are you consistently late to work @nofurbelowsbatgirl? That’s just irresponsible, and will have logical consequences….but I don’t know that it’s evil or that God even cares.

Let’s just be clear that you can and should, according to His divine plan, be stoned to death for things that are abominations in the eyes of your God, like wearing perma-press clothing, eating at Red Lobster, or you ladies not camping outside of your tents (erm, homes) when you are on your period. But sleeping in, speeding, or cheating on your taxes. The boss, police, or IRS may take issue with those behaviors; but at least we don’t have to drag you outside of the encampment and stone you to death for those indiscretions.

I think the deadly sins are not biblical, just something the Christians wrote down. All, well maybe not all, those televangelists in America prove the deadly sins are to be ignored these days. Telling their folowers to pursue wealth and the gobs of money they earn themselves (earn is being nice in my opinion).

@ETpro I was reading your post quickly and I saw ”...bleeding on your taxes…” Eww!!!

Now let’s all take a step back here. No one is being stoned for eating at Red Lobster. Joe’s Crab Shack maybe, but Red Lobster? Certainly not. After all, this is the 21st century.

What happened in Moore, Oklahoma was not God’s punishment. It was the reality of weather. God may have set the world in motion, but He did so with rules, constant, unchanging rules. Those rules are called science. Science and religion are always in complete agreement. As Abdu’l-Bahá says, religion without science is superstition. I always tend to have a problem when theists start arguing that anything is a scourge of God because it just isn’t true. Is some of the intense weather a result of global warming – something man has brought upon himself – yes. But that does not mean it is punishment from God. We all have to sprinkle our faith we common sense and reality. One must always remember to “walk the spiritual path with practical feet.”

@nofurbelowsbatgirl I respect your faith. I really do. But I am never going to hold back asking questions that will help me understand it better. As a person of faith (though not Christian, Muslim or Jewish) and devout and vocal theist, I have taken more than my share of scrutiny and sometimes even mocking here on Fluther. My advice to you is not to let the views of others deter your faith and use threads such as these as an opportunity to answer questions for yourself and strengthen your faith. I would suggest that before posting and trying to defend what you believe, make sure you believe it with all of your being and that you can support every single word of it with biblical quotes and information. You will be questioned and questioning does not always equal mocking, sometimes people are genuinely curious. Although with apologies to @ETpro, I do think this thread was intended to have a mocking tone. Also, try to make your responses as clear and concise as possible with very little emotion. Put it out there and let others decide. That’s what God does isn’t it? He sends His manifestations who share His word, and people are free to believe or not believe.

Finally, please try to remember that since the Bible was written by men, not by a manifestation of God, I believe much of it is most likely allegory (especially the Old Testament) designed to use the fear of eternal damnation to get people to behave in a certain way. I think that even the New Testament is based in truth, but that truth has been twisted to suit an agenda.

@Dutchess_III “not according to this source.” I know that politicians are prone to exaggeration but this guy missed by an order of magnitude. I should have been more curious about that. I suspect that the real statistics weren’t that difficult to dig up. I wonder why the mayor would lie about such and obvious problem. I guess most people were like me and simply took his word on the subject.

Thanks for the information, it makes the Oklahoma senators’ statements even more ridiculous.

If you have flood insurance you can only draw on it once so if you rebuild home is in the same location and it floods, you’re out of luck. I wonder why there isn’t a similar regulation for tornado insurance.

@Ron_C Perhaps he meant 3 tornadoes in his area and two of them hit Moore. I mean, hell, we had 3 tornadoes around here just on Monday night. He must have misspoken.

Probably there isn’t the same regulation for tornado because the chances of actually being hit are very, very low, and of being hit twice even lower. I am aware of the interactions between the Rocky Mountains and the Gulf Stream that create “tornado alley.” I don’t think that any one, small, 20 sq mile area within tornado alley is more prone than any other specific area in Kansas or Oklahoma. I will do some checking, but I’m pretty sure it was just bad luck.

Also, as to flooding….well, it floods really bad every 5 or 6 years, and it always floods in the same places. Always. That’s why if you’re dumb enough to rebuild in a flood zone you’re SOL.

OK, I found some stats for the OKC area since 1893. These only include more than one tornado on the same day.

April 25, 1893 (2)
May 12, 1896 (2)
June 21, 1942 (2)
March 20, 1948 (2)
April 30, 1949 (2)
April 30, 1951 (2)
June 3, 1956 (2)
April 28, 1960 (3)
May 21, 1961 (2)
August 31, 1965 (3)
September 19, 1965 (2)
June 10, 1967 (2)
April 30, 1970 (2)
June 8, 1974 (5)
April 30, 1978 (3)
March 28, 1988 (2)
June 13, 1998 (4)
May 3, 1999 (4)
October 22, 2000 (2)
May 8, 2003 (2)
May 9, 2003 (3)
November 10, 2004 (2)
May 7, 2008 (2)
February 10, 2009 (2)
May 10, 2010 (4)

Now I’m going to pick another random city, say, the Wichita Kansas area, and see what those stats are.

@SuperMouse Well thanks for the advice. Being emotionless seems easy, but is actually quite difficult for me since I do have a disorder of emotions.

I can be logical or illogical about this. But I prefer to illogical because when one is overcome with a sea of jellies who many times at the same time make sense and then are nonsensical at the same time it becomes confusing for a girl and much more frustrating for a person with an emotional disability as mine. Take for example the oxymoron you just told me which makes your entire statement deluded and nonsensical to me:
Your first sentence tells me: “That’s what God does isn’t it? He sends His manifestations who share His word”
The next thing you say: “please try to remember that since the Bible was written by men, not by a manifestation of God,”

Which is it?

People want to know why God “kills” innocent children. The fact is is that we are all sinners and in Christian religion that is why babies get baptized. It is called the original sin and it has to do with Adam. And it is backed up in the scriptures in Romans 5:12–21.

And as I just told someone through PM: There are many men who have sought to be God, but only one God who sought to be man so He could save those He deeply loves from an eternity separated from Him.

Fear of eternal damnation is a good thing. God wants us to be imperfect so He can be glorified from our imperfections.

As for the things that @ETpro says I am not sure Red Lobster even existed in the time of Christ. But lets also be sure about this, you can be bound and nailed to a cross until death also for curing lepers, walking on water, curing paralytics, resurrecting the dead and curing the blind, so the question should really be why doesn’t God get take all the good people? And the answer is simple. There are no good people. We are all sinners.

@nofurbelowsbatgirl it isn’t nonsensical or an oxy-moron. The Bible was written by men. God did not write the Bible. Jesus did not write the Bible. Fairly straight forward stuff. While the Old Testament contains the story of Moses (one of God’s manifestations) and New Testament includes the story of Jesus (a Manifestation of God) neither Moses nor Jesus wrote it, men did. Think of it as a biography rather than an auto-biography and try to remember the people who wrote it had an agenda – to use religion to control people. No need to ask which it is as it makes perfect sense as written.

I am not at all sure where the idea of being emotionless came from, but I know it didn’t come from me. What I am saying is that when a person makes claims that fly in the face of science and what we all know to be true, one is asking to be questioned and possibly even mocked.

God does not kill innocent children. He just plain does not. There is also no such thing as hell. There is only distance from and closeness to God.

Yes what you said was an oxymoron! You can’t claim one thing in one sentence and then in the very next sentence say the exact opposite. And I gave you the examples.

I never said God wrote the Bible. He could’nt of anyway. Jesus was God in human form. It doesn’t matter who wrote it, it makes sense in a serious evidential way. Religion may be to control us, but the whole point of just that makes no sense because why control people to send them to a peaceful place in the afterlife to live eternally peaceful. And therefore that statement to me is one of personal opinion and slight ignorance.

I suppose then a person could figure out which religion is right for them. And that also is a personal choice and one made because ironically as I’ve been saying the entire time we have free will, if we didn’t we would all be hanging on crosses like Jesus did.

Being emotionless was probably over exaggerated and the wrong word for me to use and I apologize for that but you did say I should have very little emotion, which is still extremely difficult for me.

I know God does not “kill” children. That is why I put quotations on the word “kill”.

First, you are wrong. What I said is not an oxymoron. You are misunderstanding and it is starting to reek of willfull ignorance so I am done discussing that with you.

Second there is not a single word in my post asking you to show no emotion.

Finally, it is the refusal to use any kind of logic when considering one’s faith is what continues to give all theists reputations for being ignorent.

It is not willful ignorance when I told you that what I pointed out was deluded and nonsensical TO ME. It all sounds a little impatient to me. :/

If I am misunderstanding then explain it instead of just being done with me. Obviously it is not willful ignorance because I want to learn what I misunderstood.

Did you read that I apologized for exaggerating and using the word “emotionless”? But you did say “try to make your responses as clear and concise as possible with very little emotion” because I just copy and pasted it from your comment. So you did talk to me about expressing little emotion but not zero emotion like I had mentioned and that is why I apologized for my exaggeration.

Your own statement is ignorant and probably commits a logical fallacy. And you do know that something exists if you follow this simple logic. Since you know you can’t get something from nothing, therefore, an essential and supreme Being exists. Not logical enough for you? keep reading.

People wonder does God exist? Some people may wonder how come we have something rather than nothing at all? Or how did everything around us get there?
What you can’t deny is that we do exist because you have to exist in order to deny your own existence (which is self-defeating), so the first is true and you do exist. No one has ever demonstrated that something (even us) can come from nothing so then lets say that is true. Therefore a supreme Being is responsible for everything that exists and I believe that Being is God.

don’t do it mousie. your last post will stand best if it’s the last one you post on this thread.

Although, to be fair, it’s spelt ignorant.

@ucme that typo tears me apart every time I see it!

Tornado sirens going off in Moore. 7:00 P.M. 5/31/13.

time zone?

just for future reference . . .

Oklahoma time, silly.

@Blondesjon Same as IL. OK is central time zone.

It was God’s plan to promote reasonable taxation levels and build tornado shelters for school children. But the superpious Bible Belters ignored the plan.

@SuperMouse At least it wasn’t ignernt (sic). :-)

@mattbrowne If there is a God in Heaven, that would make sense for his plan.

Wow, I can’t believe this has come down to ‘God wants higher taxes’. That’s got to be a stretch even for you guys.

@Jaxk God’s ways are higher than your ways, and his taxes are too.

Well, the wages of sin is death, so I imagine the taxes on those wages must be painful to pay.