Will the House Republicans stop Immigration Reform?

I’ll make the popcorn, @ETpro.

There is probably something too liberal to make it palatable, like giving illegals amnesty.

The Republicans only want to look fair, they don’t want to be fair.

Thank god when my family came over, there were darker people here, so liberals could give my grandfather amnesty, and conservatives could think less of someone else.

Thing here is that PR can outweigh facts. The mere fact that the Tea Party branch of the Republican Party even has the slightest political power is proof of that. So, how can the Republicans get the Hispanic vote at all? Same way they do everything else; smear campaigns full of outright fabrications.

Of course, cutting education enough to make people gullible enough to believe anything plus deep enough pockets for a PR blitz bigger than the truth-spreading opposition plus a degree of party unity great enough that the more moderate members either fall into lock-step with extremist agendas or risk excommunication also helps.

@KNOWITALL “Too liberal to make it palatable” means that even a single Democrat would be willing to vote for it. I still maintain that, if Democrats officially declared that people need to breathe, many Republicans would suffocate themselves.

@bookish1 Great. It’s going to be high drama worthy of popcorn.

@KNOWITALL I think it’s offensive to call people illegals. If you run a stop sign, are you then an illegal? I overstayed my visa in the UK by several months. I don’t think I became an illegal human due to that. I’d just broken a law. Republican speak is frightenly Orwellian.

@filmfann Roll out the photo ops.

@Imadethisupwithnoforethought I heard that. Same here.

@jerv Hey, that’s worth a try. Let’s launch a petition drive to pass a “Right to breathe” law and see what Republicans counter it with.

The House will pass nothing.

Or they will pass something with an impossible requirement like “before the reasonable provisions above are implemented the President must certify and document that he has deported all persons here illegally now and made the border completely impenetrable.”

@ETpro So to you, illegal immigrants in unlimited numbers and amnesty to all seems financially feasible?

@ETpro Anyone who breaks the law is subject to legal ramifications so we just exclude all immigrants?

@KNOWITALL Increasing labor costs by replacing under-the-table illegal workers with ones that earn at least minimum wage, or just having some things left undone will cost a bit, and that is on top of the costs of increased enforcement.

Now, if you’re of the mind that we may as well prosecute immigrants because we can’t get real criminals like rapists, drug dealers, and the like, then you’re calling into question whether we are a society of justice or merely one of law that just feels the need to punish people.

Once again the screams against an aritificial strawman. It’s really not that difficult. Close the boarder, then deal with those that are here. We know that this administration isn’t capable of policing thier own work. Hell they say the boarder is already secure. Who would really believe that? This whole debate is a political football that has no chancve of fixing the problem. If it passes, illegal immigration will continue. If it doesn’t pass, illegal immigration will continue.

The only thing this bill addresses is how many will be able to apply for citizenship and we have no idea. We estimate 11 million illegals but we have no idea how accurate that is. Once they have citizenship how many will bring in their extended families and how many will that be? another 11 million or some multiple thereof. We don’t even have a clue how many of the current illegals will be able to apply.

We say they must pay back taxes and a fine to apply. Can they afford to do that? Or can we just take that money from thier welfare checks. I love the idea that will will solve this with E-Verify. Punish the businessman for hiring with a government program that has virtually no chance of being usuable. We can’t keep up on the terrorist watch lists or the voting roles but E-Verify will be accurate. Give me a break. How many lawsuits will we create because US citizens can’t get a job? The lawyers gotta love it.

And just for those that can’t seem to understand the term Illegal Immigrant. It’s not illegal people it’s illegal IMMIGRANTS. They immigrated illegally. Why is that so tough to understand?

Is the Pope Catholic?

@Jaxk What tribe are you from? I’m pretty sure that the Sioux, Cherokee, and Iroquois (amongst others) have their own views on illegal immigration that would get you and I deported in a heartbeat. It’s hard to avoid hypocrisy here, especially for those of European descent.

My Vietnamese came legally and benefitted from that. Country-hopping illegally is ok for Mexicans but no one else?

@KNOWITALL Please let me speak for myself instead of insterting words into my mouth that you find easy to refute. Where did I say I want to see unlimited immigration? I actually spoke of doubling the number of personnel securing the border.

Now, as to costs. In his inimitable, easy to grasp, fact-based style that the ideology-based right hates to much, former Labor Secretary Prof. Robert Reich “explains why the Tea Party fears are all myths”;http://front.moveon.org/what-if-robert-reich-told-you-that-immigration-reform-would-save-our-economy/#.Uc6E2_nlaWY. America was built by immigrants, and we need immigrants if we are to continue to build. A comprehensive immigration package with some ultimate path to citizenship is stratospherically better financial policy than sticking your head in the sand (current Republican policy) or a bewilderingly expensive mass deportation program.

What’s the Republican plan? Oh yeah, there is none. Republican’s don’t solve problems, they exist only to ensure nobody else ever can.

@jerv

Actually I have no problem with your point. It is uncontrolled immigration that destroyed the Indian’s culture. We can’t do anything about that now (I was very young when that took place) but maybe we could learn from it.

Immigration is not just a problem here in the states, it is worldwide. Europe is having thier own problems. Syrian refugees are pouring into Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, and others. Turkey has received almost a million refugees and it is crippling thier economy, yet Democrats try to tell us 11 million in the US will bring on boom times. More likely to go well beyond 50 million once they start bringing thier extended families. China is propping up N.Korea because they can’t afford them to fail and have millions of N.Koreans, flooding into China. Why do you guys keep pushing this uncontrolled immigration is good for us when every other country in the world knows it’s a disaster.

I would like to see just one of you guys tell us, how many is too many? How much immigration do you all really believe can be absorded into our economy before it starts causing problems. If 11 million is not a problem and apparently the extended families, maybe another 40 million is not a problem, would a few hundred million be a problem? Is there no limit to what we can absorb?

@Jaxk That is exactly the problem. Now, you and I seem to agree that “All of them!” is too many, so that leaves us with establishing the lower boundary.

Many in the Red states have a strong, ” ‘Murica is for ‘Muricans!” streak, so we know that that faction will say that zero is too many, and that it’s money well spent to to conduct massive manhunts and beef up border security to DMZ levels. Those are generally the sorts of people who lynch those whose skin is darker than a paper bag, but these people also have enough numbers to get a few of their own into high office, so you cannot discount them.

On the other side, we have those that don’t care about the economics of the situation, at least not nearly as much as the humanitarian aspects of it. And given that every family that is ripped apart by deportations is ripped apart at taxpayer expense, I have to give them a little bit of credence; I’m pretty sure you can think of better ways for your tax dollars to be spent than separating spouses, or ripping young children away from their parents.

In the middle, you have the people who cannot get anything done; the Moderates. Compromise is seen as weakness in these extremist times, and getting a policy somewhere between the manhunt/DMZ approach and the utter amnesty would require a level of bipartisanship that would be impossible to achieve.

Now, let me counter your, “Why do you guys keep pushing this uncontrolled immigration is good for us when every other country in the world knows it’s a disaster.” with “Why do you guys refuse to allow a move that is a step closer to your agenda simply because it’s not 100% of what you wanted when doing so means getting none of what you wanted?”.

You know who else does that? Small children. Most rational adults would prefer concessions over nothing. Intelligent, sane people are willing to compromise. What they don’t do is hold an entire Congress (and the nation it governs) hostage because we didn’t meet their demands like Boehner is doing. You know who does that? Terrorists.

If you truly wish to oppose the Democrats, a good place to start is by accepting measures that bring policy closer to your own goals instead of giving a petty, “Is that all?”. Democrats often hold their nose when offering concessions, but at least they are somewhat willing to set aside partisanship for the sake of effective governance.

Until a few years ago, Republicans could do the same thing. How do you think they effectively kept the Democrats from running roughshod for many decades? But recent years have seen the Republican party taken over by those who think that the Republicans of the past were far too Liberal. And that radicalization has turned the GOP from an effective counterbalance to the Democrats into an anti-intellectual hate group that would be hilarious if not for the fact that they are dangerous.

In short, the best way to beat the Democrats is to be more like the Republicans of the past and less like Bible-thumping hillbillies on PCP.

Time to stop following!

@janbb Probably. These sorts of discussions never go well, and I really should just stay away from them. Maybe someday I’ll learn to just surf on by….

@jerv

Let’s see, I’m a racist, bigot, religious fanatic, and a cracker on PCP. I should compromise by shutting my eyes and endorsing whatever the Democrats put on the table. Welcome to the Obama school of negotiation.

@jerv You could always run for mayor of a major Canadian city.

@Jaxk Politics is something where perception matters, and that is how Republicans really are seen at the moment. Most Republicans are not actually that way, but those are the ones that the Republicans who are that way disown.

No, true compromise is when you are willing to accept part of what you are after when your opposition doesn’t want to give you even that much. Things are best when all sides are equally pissed off. When you hold out in an “all or nothing” way, they will eventually stop offering any concessions at all, and thus depriving you of any effective way of governing unless you conduct a coup. So long as they have any power at all, you will have no chance of getting even a small sliver of your agenda through so long as we have anything more fair than what North Korea of China have.

Note that Republicans also had greater success in past decades before going off the deep end. But there are places where extremist Right-wing groups have done well. Iran, for instance. Saudi Arabia seems to do pretty decent, though they may be a little liberal by your standards.

So long as you keep acting the way you do though, Democrats barely even need to lift a finger to defeat you.

@jerv

That’s not the first time I’ve heard the theory that a successful negotiation is when both sides are pissed off. Guess what, that not success, it’s failure. Both sides should walk away happy. Immigration is no different. There really is only one thing that the Republicans have wanted from day one. Close the border. After that, there’s not much disagreement. But closing the border first, is a deal breaker.

If you believe all the crap you spew, you have no problem. You’ll take over the house in 2014, have a lock on the presidency, and can put forward your aggressive progressive agenda with impunity. I think you’re dreaming but if you believe it, go for it.

@Jaxk You missed the key word; equally.

There is only one thing I really want; for you personally to give me a billion dollars. What? Is that too much to ask from you? How about your first-born? No? Now, if you want a closed border, we can seal off Texas…. from the North. I think that that move would have far more public support, both from Americans and from Texans.

But are you telling me that Republicans would rather walk away from the negotiating table completely than to plug a few holes in the border? Are you telling me that they are unwilling to take things one step at a time and work their way towards a goal, and instead just sit there like petulant children, demanding handouts? Re-reads previous post… Yes. Yes, you are.

I am not nearly as naive as you believe. Suppose that that fantasy happens, then what? We take a wide swing to the Left for a term or two, piss people off, and then swing back to the Right. And given our penchant for extremism, I think it quite possible that our next swing to the Right will make people like you look like Socialists. But lets be real; that won’t happen, and even if it does, there are enough tricks that a minority party can pull to halt the agenda of the majority party that it won’t make much difference. Of course, that continuation of the status quo wouldn’t be nearly as good as what we used to have when compromise still happened.

Lastly, with regards to ” You’ll take over the house in 2014, have a lock on the presidency, and can put forward your aggressive progressive agenda with impunity.” , well, that just proves that either you don’t know me, or that you really are just trolling. As you have proven to be otherwise intelligent, it stands to reason that you are capable enough of learning that the latter outcome is far more likely. But I consider you entertaining, so I stick around anyways.

@ETPro I was asking questions so you would clarify your liberal hatespeak.

@Jaxk “Let’s see, I’m a racist, bigot, religious fanatic, and a cracker on PCP. I should compromise by shutting my eyes and endorsing whatever the Democrats put on the table. Welcome to the Obama school of negotiation.”

Exactly why I DO answer these, to counter all the lies. :)

@KNOWITALL And you generally do a good job of representing the non-batshit Conservatives. Sadly, that makes you a Liberal in the eyes of many of the current alleged-Republicans while being lumped in with the batshit brigade by Moderates and Liberals.

@jerv Thanks, I try – lol. My family is full of Dems and Reps both, so I get both sides a lot.

I specifically call myself a liberal Republican because some things, like SSM and abortion, fall under the category of ‘personal freedoms’ that I support, while I do not have to agree (I am anti-abortion personally but all for SSM.)

@KNOWITALL You, who so often complain about generalizations, are going to try to skate by actually discussing anything by labeling everything I said “liberal hate speech?” Come on, I know you can do better than that. I spoke with stark clarity. You can either deal with what was said, or retreat into spin and obfuscation. I won’t bother to debate spin, because spinners never quit. Their mind was made up long before the discussion started, and the spin is just designed to make their preconceived position seem logical.

@ETpro My ancestry is Irish, Dutch and Cherokee Indian, I know we’re a country of immigrants and I’m proud of that. I have friends that have emigrated here and went through a lot to do that, and do it legally, and they contribute to our society by working and raising family here. I don’t have a problem with that at all, but allowing thousands across our borders with no criminal background or other information is insanity.

@KNOWITALL Where have I advocated allowing thousands to cross our borders? Nowhere. Where is the Senate Bill under discussion advocating that? Nowhere. Nobody is even talking about accepting those that are her without criminal background checks, payments of fines for entering illegally, and waiting at the end of the line. Are you making this stuff up or living in the Faux News propaganda chamber? Since nobody has said this but you, where did it come from?

@ETpro I asked questions and you replied for me not to put words in your mouth. I honestly don’t know what you think or believe at this point. As I’ve said before, I don’t watch Fox News, another assumption?

I love our melting pot and want us all to be financially stable, and I don’t see a clear way to integrate eleven million immigrants without a green card or a background check.

Well, if you don’t want to read the bill, which I provided a link to, rest assured that under it nobody gets instant citizenship, nobody escapes penalties for having emigrated illegally, and criminal background checks are required for all who apply. Also, the bill calls for doubling the number of border patrol agents on the Southern Border, plus the use of technology to extend the range of view of each agent there.

@KNOWITALL Here’s a 9-minute video called Deport Hate. It puts the current situation into pretty good perspective, and captures where the “they’re illegals” fervor really comes from.