Should George Zimmerman be charged with a hate crime under federal law?

The FBI has investigated and said there is no grounds for charging Zimmerman federally under hate crime laws.

This is from a year ago: http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/justice/florida-teen-shooting

No. After listening to the many hours of testimony at trial, it’s clear that only 1 living person knows what really happened and who provoked a confrontation. That person is George Zimmerman. We can’t read Zimmerman’s mind to discern what really happened in the dark that night, and we certainly can’t get any information on it from Trayvon Martin. The first jury to hear the case listened to all the evidence and determined that there was not sufficient proof ANY crime was committed to find George Zimmerman guilty. I believe any future jury would have to reach the same conclusion, and that trying Zimmerman over again would be double jeopardy.

No.

Let us make the following two assumptions for the sake of argument:

(1) Zimmerman is guilty.
(2) Zimmerman racially profiled Martin.

From these assumptions, we cannot get to the following conclusion:

(3) Zimmerman killed Martin because he was black.

Even if you think that there are racial undertones to the case—i.e., that Zimmerman thought Martin was “suspicious” and “didn’t belong” in a gated community because he was black—that still doesn’t show that the motivation for shooting Martin was based on his race. In a hate crime, the criminal act must itself be motivated by prejudice. That prejudice may have led to a series of events culminating in a criminal act is not enough.

Intent is hard to prove. It wouldn’t go anywhere. I would think that his family may be able to sue for wrongful death but Zimmerman doesn’t come from money. So it will probably cause the family more to sue than what they will actually get.
I wonder if the family could sue the state for a law that led to their sons death? At the very least it may force them to change the law.
Or if they can prove that Zimmerman is unbalanced and he shouldn’t have been allowed to be on neighborhood watch or that he shouldn’t have been allowed to own or carry a gun. Again. May be too hard to prove.

If it turned out it was a white man instead of T Martin , who then proceeded to pound Zims face in, I still think he would have shot him if he thought it was his only way to stop it. I think everyone would believe that too. Unless we are going to go on record saying black fists are more lethal. What a hornets nest that would break open. When the 911 asked him what race he was he said he wasn’t sure. Seems to me the 911 operator set up that race thing but, they would need to actually know for the sake of helping ID who it was. Cops need to know to have something to go on. And they do this without risk of race baiting.
I will be shocked if any federal action will be brought. They need precedent. Because a few days later in the same state it was a black man who did the killing of a white man and he felt no repercussion for it. The Dooley case. The circumstances could be argued they were very similar. Or would the feds be ready to say its only racism if a black guy gets killed. They wouldn’t dare.

I remember reading about a British tourist who after a night out got lost and wandered into the wrong neighbourhood and was murdered by one of the locals. I was pretty shocked just as I was shocked by this case. I don’t think the murderer got away with it.

He didn’t. I just found the case He got a life sentence.

I’ve not heard anyone calling for federal civil rights charges of a hate crime to be brought against Zimmerman (and would like read it if it’s out there), but I have heard people ask that they explore prosecution on violations of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as in the Lemrick Nelson trial.

The distinction is that in a hate crime the crime is committed with intent because of a person’s race. In the other, a person’s race is a factor in a chain of events that lead to a person being injured or killed, ie the person is profiled, followed, and…whatever unfortunate event follows. That could be being detained at gunpoint against his will (kidnapping), it could be assault. It could be murder, following a fight.

I think it would be a difficult case to prove.

I ask myself if George Zimmerman would have taken the same actions if he had seen:

A 9-year-old black boy
A 60-year-old black man wearing a sweater-vest
A 17-year-old black woman wearing a dress
A 17-year-old black man wearing running shorts, a t-shirt, and earbuds connected to an ipod
A 17-year-old hispanic man wearing a hoodie

I don’t know what George Zimmerman’s mind, but my guess is that it’s the last person on the list that he’d view as “suspicious”

I also think that it’s interesting that his black friends have claimed he isn’t racist

Zimmerman was probably on the lookout for people that appear to be able to break into houses. And if in the sunny part of the day people are easy to identify. In a low light situation someone who is over 6 feet tall would get someones attention. A dwarf or small kid doubtfully would make him look twice. Then in the context of what had been happening in that area with the robberies. I’m sure residents were concerned that it was only a matter of time before one of them was hurt or killed given the frequency of the break- ins. They would be correct with that. They had pretty much had it with the criminal element running loose there. Thats why they recruit volunteers to keep a look out. In a crappy run down neighborhood this type of thing might happen all the time and it wouldn’t be viewed as something extraordinary even though they would still resent it.

I see some using the idea that since it wasn’t Zim’s turn on the neighborhood watch roster he was wrong for doing anything at all. Trying hard to get a technicality conspiracy running. He lives in the area, all the residents are in the same boat so could it be they would find fault if one of them sees a suspicious person by chance? Just keep on driving?
It may be a coincidence but the break- ins in that same area seem to have tricked down or stopped since T M was killed..

Absolutely!!!!

I think Jeantal made a good point, which is that parents teach children to run from possible attackers, yet Trayvon was followed until he fought back against his perceived attacker.

The police told Zimmerman to stay in the car instead of pursuing Treyvon.

Our neighborhood watch has been told time and time again, do not take action, call the cops who are trained.

All I’m saying is that regardless of the verdict, I personally find Zimmerman went against the police and pursued a teenager at night with a weapon. For me, he is and always will be guilty of the murder of Treyvon.

If it was your child walking home from a friends house after playing video games in your neighborhood, what would you expect to happen?

No, but it is kind of a close call. Zimmerman pursued Martin because he thought that because Martin was black, he was likely to be connected to crimes that had been taking place. What if we extended that to a belief that because a person is black, the person is undoubtedly responsible for some crime and is worth pursuing? That would be a hate crime. It is just a matter of the extent of the prejudice.

@LostInParadise In the US we’re supposedly innocent until proven guilty. Zimmerman killed a kid because of racial profiling. It really infuriates me.

I agree that Zimmerman should be punished for taking the law into his own hands after being specifically told by the police not to. It annoys me that he does not even get a slap on the wrist for that let alone a prison sentence. Had he done as he was told, nothing would have happened. However, from what I have heard, I don’t think Zimmerman went after Martin with the idea of shooting him.

911 operators there are not cops for the umpteenth time. They are phone monkeys with no more authority than Dr Phil. They legally cannot instruct anyone in a situation they can’t see firsthand, and even if they could see what was happening in real time…still not cops. They are contractors. They could get themselves embroiled in lawsuits if someone takes their advise and something goes bad because of it. This time though they might have had it right but it was a lucky guess. I think they said they didn’t need him to follow. Don’t think I can recall them suggesting he lock himself inside his vehicle as so many here think. So he was milling around outside of it instead of hiding inside it? There was no evidence that Zim was racial profiling. It was dark. Martin just happened to not be white. There are many communities,(thousands), in the US where most of the neighbors know right away if someone they see is alien to their area. For those who don’t even know who lives beside them it would be easy to see why they might not know one way or the other. But in light of the high number of home break- ins out there it could be understandable how the residents would be highly suspect of someone whom they didn’t personally recognize right away. With the frequency of these home attacks one could rightfully conclude that it was a matter of time before someone was hurt, in their own house. Both men were at fault but we can only use laws in effect at the time. Assault and battery is unlawful. The evidence (that was hidden early on) indicated Martin did it. Following and watching someone while might creep someone out ..still not illegal. Thats why we have laws, so the courts have something to base legal decisions on that can’t be disputed. Thats how they are supposed to work, anyway. Handing out verdicts based on emotion and individual interpretation of the law makes us a banana republic.
I have been called names for stating the painfully obvious here, I’m sorry for that…I don’t let my emotions rule me… guilty. It has been because of the way I see this ,that I support racial profiling and murder? Can you believe that? If you don’t tow the line here that’s what you get.

Guess what…don’t hold your breaths waiting for that to happen Because I will convey what I feel is right. I see what is there. If you are having a meltdown over my audacity, well then….

Bite me.

The person Zimmerman spoke to was a police dispatcher, who has authority to send a police officer out to a given location. The dispatcher told Zimmerman to leave Martin alone. Zimmerman had no business acting like a vigilante. Being a neighborhood watch coordinator does not give anyone authority to go after people. I could appoint myself as my own private neighborhood watch coordinator. This does not give me any special new privileges. If I see something that looks suspicious, I contact the police, just like anyone else.

@LostInParadise You didn’t have a house in that neighborhood. Those people were being terrorized by young black men. They were black because they were seen breaking in and attempting to. Got nothing to do with profiling. If its all blacks doing it, you don’t go on the lookout for Asians or white people. Anymore than the TSA doing cavity searches on toddlers. They had plenty rights to confront any one they saw fit. There was no reasonable expectation that Martin was going to sucker punch Zimmerman just for confronting him. Not a single member of this site can say they would choose to react that way. Zimmerman, in light of all the mischief taking place was being reasonably cautious by looking into this situation and had every right to make sure things were on the up and up. Martin was an immature gangsta wanna be and was not being reasonable by being violent. Your beef is with the jury who knows more than they needed to to make up their minds. Martin fucked himself when he didn’t need to.

We have police to determine who is a likely suspect. Zimmerman’s job was done after he informed the police. Martin was unarmed. There was not and still is not any reason to believe that he was going to commit a crime. Do you have documentation showing that all the crimes were committed by blacks? Even if that is the case, If 1/100 % of black people commit crimes, that does not give you the right to harass 100% of them. You know what happens if you profile blacks? It means that white criminals are going to slip in under the radar. Profiling is not only unfair. It doesn’t work.

@LostInParadise The dispatcher is the one that asked what Martin was doing now, if the dispatcher had not asked that question then Zimmerman may not have gotten out of the truck to follow Martin in the first place. Maybe we should arrest the dispatcher for setting the whole chain of events in motion.

Once the dispatcher told Zimmerman they didn’t need him to follow Martin, Zimmerman stopped following and started back to his truck. It was then that Martin confronted Zimmerman.

@LostInParadise Martin was unarmed. There was not and still is not any reason to believe that he was going to commit a crime.

Here is the transcript of the 911 call placed by George Zimmerman.

If you read the transcript you’ll see that George had reason to believe Martin was up to no good and could possibly have a weapon. I’ve copy and pasted the following for you-

Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area…

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher:OK…

Zimmerman: Now he’s just staring at me.

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.

Dispatcher: OK.

Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.

I see a pattern here that is revolving around the fact there was a neighborhood watch. I think there are some here who are repelled by that idea by itself. Zimmerman would have had no more, or less rights to his curiosity by being the watch commander or if he was some random guy who brain farted his way to discovering Martin checking out houses. It would have been something any prudent resident of that community would have felt justified in doing without risk of a physical confrontation. There is a war happening there and tensions were high. I also think there may be some latent resentment toward those who live in gated communities. It could be playing into this debate just below the surface. The idea that neighbors would organize to try to keep certain elements out of their midst tends to annoy certain people who identify with those deemed undesirable.

@woodcutter You know I love ya buddy, and will after this.

One of my favorite judges once said “If you hadn’t taken inappropriate action, would the incident have occurred? If the answer is yes, they you are liable for what happened when you decided to take that action.”

A young man is dead because Zim took inappropriate action and to me and Treyvon’s family, it was racial profiling. For me, Zim was armed and took his NW duties overboard.

Ever been to a NW meeting for your own neighborhood? Never do they or the local police encourage following, detaining or using force – you ALWAYS let the police do their job unless you are in immediate physical danger. If Zim would have stayed in the car, Treyvon wouldn’t be dead. I think Zim knew it and got away with poor behavior bordering on stalking prey.

I wouldn’t want him in charge of my NW or in any way guarding my neighborhood, he may shoot me when I walk home from my neighbors house after playing cards, or maybe that’s only if I was black?!

Being for gun rights is one thing, and I cherish that privelage, but people like Zim abusing that privelage for their own narcisstic desires is what is going to lose all of our rights to self-defense someday. In this case, I understand liberals better, and I won’t defend someone using his own weapon to kill a teenager. Are material possessions worth more than a teenagers life? Not in my book.

@KNOWITALL I agree with pretty much all of that. But we have to allow all the blame fall where it needs to. And the dead man was also up to his neck in irresponsible behavior. So I look at the whole incident to make conclusions. If we only zero in on one aspect and make that one the one that could have stopped it, we are being unfair. I don’t know if GZ had a gun as a result of the rash of crime there or was it something he always had even before. If someone has a weapon for self defense I see no reason why he would be expected to relinquish that just to be watch captain. Given the situation there, it appears to have gotten scary fast, and stayed that way. It does that to people. Some may have felt it was only a matter of time before one of the people responsible was going to end up with their own gun. It would not be unreasonable to worry about that.

Muaa

I am one of the deemed undesirables who enjoys the liberty to walk where they will in a free country. From sea to shining sea.

@flutherother LOL well if yous keeps on going into whity’s houses and heppin your sef you gonna git shot.

joking, really.

Taking a walk down a street and stealing are two quite different things.

It was also interesting how the story went from “looking at houses” to “looking in houses,” in the retelling.

The former implies someone just minding his own business; the latter implies someone who is up to no good. I keep coming back to why Zimmerman had to dramatize details to make his actions seem more reasonable – unless his actions were unreasonable in the first place.

@GoldieAV16 Or, he could have been telling everyone what happened. Until there are any mystery witnesses popping in I’ll have to go with that. I see an awful lot of over thinking on the clairvoyant side of things here.

@woodcutter Okay, convince me I’m wrong and Zim did the right thing.

I just wonder if the racists in our country that are armed (and there are a LOT in my area), will take this to mean that they can stalk someone, entice them into a physical altercation and kill them with impunity. Self-defense gets tricky when there’s no witnesses.

@KNOWITALL Actually repeal of Stand Your Ground laws would hurt blacks more than whites.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/blacks-benefit-from-florida-stand-your-ground-law-at-disproportionate-rate/

@KNOWITALL I have no reason to believe the honest gun owners already here have learned anything new about self defense laws. People who have been granted permission to carry are uup to date with all the laws.Or should be. So the idea that now since seeing this case go down it will prompt people to act less responsibly. The stand you ground defense is used all the time by almost everyone who discourages an attacker. Because this time race was involved it may seem like some Pandora’s box has been opened. And for the umpteenth time we should look at the Dooley case in Fla. last year right after this one, where the black guy used SYG and was found innocent of murder even though the details of the case appear to look identical.

@WestRiverrat Got it, thanks for posting.

What really peeves me off is that Zim had a way to ‘safely retreat’ and he pushed forward AGAINST dispatcher advice and ended up killing a teenager. To me it seems like he was eager for confrontation and that is dangerous. Peace out, gotta run!!

@KNOWITALL From what I understand, when he got the advice to not follow Martin, Zimmerman stopped and was heading back to his truck to await the cops.

I’m feeling that if Zim thought Martin was going to be any kind of dangerous he would have tried to stay away. I know I would have. The last thing a permit holder wants is to be caught up in trouble where they show their weapon. It can go all downhill from there even if no shots fired. Things got unexpectedly out of hand rapidly making it too late to retreat. Again we are speculating with a whole lot of shoulda, coulda, woulda, with hindsight being the only guide. I did read from some source that the break-ins have stopped. This is not to suggest that it was Martin behind all of them as he was discovered by police with unlikely merchandise and the odd screwdriver (common forced entry tool), not belonging to him. But others who were looking at these homes as targets may have moved on out of fear. Young people with no jobs buying weed and whatever. Where are they getting their money on a regular schedule? It appears that they were selling small stolen items to finance their lifestyle. Just a guess.

@woodcutter I think Zim wanted to be a hero. Well he’s famous anyway.

@woodcutter Even if Trey was one of the burglars, which isn’t proven, he didn’t have to die over it.

Are you saying Zim thought Trey was an ‘easy target’ for an armed adult white guy? You bet he was, he didn’t stand a chance.

In this country, we are innocent until proven guilty and Trey’s rights were violated. Civil suit just waiting to happen.

@KNOWITALL He didn’t die because of any suspected robberies/ theft. He was shot because he made his victim think he wasn’t going to stop pummeling him. The other stuff is just consequential, to include race. In the dark and in rain, the race thing also becomes a non issue. Nobody wants to be pounded on and I doubt the color of the fists matters as to their lethality. To counter your idea…does a person who follows a black man while reporting him to the cops deserve to be beaten up?

Of course not.

@woodcutter I understood Zim used the ‘burglaries’ as his excuse on leaving and continuing to pursue after being told to stay in his vehicle.

If someone’s following me and I can’t get away after trying, I’d probably try to beat them down, too, to protect myself. So self-defense could probably be used for both, since both had called 9–1-1.

If the cops say they can handle it and to desist, then you should desist immediately, not continue on, in my opinion.

Mwuah! I think this is our first fight, honey bunny – lol

@KNOWITALL Young Trayvon Martin was just a few steps away, (his fathers fiance’s house), from where he was going before Zimmerman came into his life. He was just about there, way ahead of Zimmerman. That is why the jurors looked at this as a separate incident in that regard. He could have just gone inside. He won. Leave the C. A. C. outside in the rain. End of any incident. But for some reason he declined to do the sure thing that would have stopped any foreseeable incident. He wasn’t scared enough to do even that. The same thing as you or I would have done if we were suspicious of some random person looking at us. That will always remain a mystery why he felt the need to escalate a small event of being monitored into a cage fight style beat down. Personally I feel he did it because he was young, possibly naive, and from his history- loved the fight. He never thought they guy he was about to pound on would have a weapon just a lethal as his. Because Trayvon technically was not unarmed. He initiated an unnecessary attack that was to satisfy the sport aspect of this than any notion he was afraid for his life…remember he was very close to being inside. I wish he had gone inside and locked the door. But he didn’t.

i forgive you sweetie, muaa

@woodcutter The official police reports do not say that Trayvon Martin ever got closer than 210 feet from where he was living in Twin Lakes. Where are you getting the information that it was “a few steps”?

@woodcutter From the court that I watched, I understood that Treyvon didn’t want to lead this ‘weird guy following him’ to the house for safety purposes (that’s what he told Jeanet via cell), in case he went nutzoid.

If some guy was following you on the way to your mom’s, you wouldn’t do anything? Come on, Okie, you know you would have confronted him or something- lol :)

I’m still just surprised that so many people buy GZ’s version of the events. Not, “I fought back,” or “I tried to throw a punch,” not a single defensive move. Simply, “I tried to squirm away.” Those were his actual words to describe his part in the fight.

I just find that to be totally not credible. Any woman I know who has been attacked has fought back. Are we supposed to believe that an able bodied man (regardless of how they’ve tried to portray him as a ”.5 on a scale of 1–10 in fighting) did nothing to defend himself? Short of pulling a gun and killing the guy that is. I get to that part of his story and it’s just full stop for me. My bullshit detector goes off the charts.

@GoldieAV16 I agree. It is very strange to me how many people think we should just take Zimmerman’s word for things in this case. I also think the response from self-defense ideologues has been strange (I think most people are for self-defense, but ideologues are the sort who seem to always have it on their minds and spend a lot of time preparing for the possibility of being attacked).

Maybe this was two guys who both acted a little stupidly and both thought they were defending themselves. Maybe it’s just a tragedy with no villains, just a lot of idiots. But we don’t get that version from them. If Zimmerman isn’t a murderer, they seem to think that means Martin must have been a punk. But would they be on Martin’s side if he had won the fight and claimed self-defense?

@GoldieAV16 and @Patton Maybe it is because the hard evidence introduced in court supports Zimmerman’s position.

@Patton Ya I know 210 whole feet. Yesterday i actually stepped that distance out. You should also try it. Its not a long distance. 70 yards. I’m an old guy with mobility issues. And with my limping old ass I covered that distance in a little over a minute…more or less. I’m not a young football player in top shape so I will guess that Mr Martin could have done it in ½ that time. Lets face it guys, the kid wanted to fight. He likes it. He wanted a rematch with one of his last fight opponents because he didn’t make the guy bleed enough. He recently punched a transit bus driver for not letting him ride the buss for free. The driver was ordered to not file a complaint.The criminal activity Martin and others ,was on record being involved in, was not reported as criminal acts and instead labeled school discipline issues. So the school police dept was busted for cooking the books in order to make the teen criminal problem look better than it was. 60% better….wow. This serves to make these offenders think they can and will get away with anything because they aren’t stupid. They are emboldened and the new sweep the problems under the rug did not help them at all. It was all in Martins corner till he went to fist city with someone because he was watching him. Punching is not self defense against looking at you. Martin killed himself that night but looking at how his interests were taking him it was a matter of time before the “lean” got him. “Lean” is a nasty cocktail that causes many psychological problems in users. No way he was going to graduate with his class or get a job.This kids story was tragic and It must have been hard for his family picking thorough all of his stuff in his room and what they found out about him then. It’s all on his facebook feed talking drugs as well as the information that was gleaned from his phone. If they didn’t have an idea he was a young thug before, they got the news post mortum. Very sad and sad for his parents.They have to face themselves and wonder where they went wrong with him, as I understand he had a tumultuous home life.

@KNOWITALL Martin was on enough drugs on a habitual scale I’m sure he suffered from acute paranoia among other things. I believe that worked against him as it does for most drug abusers. Plus being 17 with little life experience to lean on didn’t help. He acted rashly and when any of us do that, it usually does not go well. I’m not paranoid I probably wouldn’t notice someone watching me. What he saw was someone watching him while they were using a phone. The thoughts of a paranoid person seeing this have no bounds. I have nothing to hide and therefore it wouldn’t strike me as too odd but I just can’t see myself lighting someone up for that. I’m a lover not fighter. Not worth the risk of jail time and I’m too old, and pretty, to be in jail, thank you very much.

@WestRiverrat The evidence doesn’t support his position, it just fails to contradict it. Not the same thing. Parts of his story could be true even if the overall situation wasn’t exactly what he said it was, which would explain why the evidence that is still available (one of the key witnesses having been killed) doesn’t contradict him.

@woodcutter I wasn’t saying it was a long distance, I was saying it wasn’t a few steps. If you think you’re right, you shouldn’t have to misrepresent the facts to make your point. Anyway, I’ve already said that I think this might have just been a story with no villains and a lot of idiots. I’m not trying to pretend that Martin was some kind of angel. But striking first out of self-defense is legal in Florida, so Martin actually did have every right to punch Zimmerman if he felt threatened. And that’s the point I’ve been making. If Martin was acting out of self-defense, then what would people like you think if he had won? I think that’s an important question to answer before we decide how much we want to judge each party.

@Patton If you really believe that being watched by someone while they are on a cell phone (probably talking about you), as threatening then I suppose you could be right but, I think even you will have to stretch it pretty tight to think a person should strike first because of that. Most would have an easier time believing someone be suffering from paranoia to suspect this. All indicators of this is to be believable in that….17 year old minds exposed to marijuana, as well as “purple lean” tend to act irrationally. Martin probably started smoking dope earlier than 17 and don’t even get started with the DXM purple. Even his girlfriend testified he was known to act paranoid.
I would like to know this kid’s story. His family life or lack of. why his own mother made him go live with his father, who looked to be moving on with his life with a fiance. The law failed the kid. His parents failed him too. On a downward spiral at 17. We’ve seen this story before. And it ended predictably unfortunately.

Zimmerman should be a role model. If we all behaved like Zimmerman the world would be a far better place.

Had his name been Perez, instead of Zimmerman we wouldn’t have seen the whole court circus. Martin lost his cool because he was tripping and jumped on the wrong person. Proceeded to pound the shit out of a stranger never thinking the guy could be packing heat. When one gets used to winning every fight they start it can be quite hard to ever think they could lose one. It was a matter of time.

Had Martin lived long enough to be in his mid 20’s and past, due to more maturity, his response would have been more measured or wouldn’t have responded all. Would we have all felt better if it was a black guy who had the gun and dusted Martin? Yep. It happens quite regularly in the states and never seems to get on the news at all. So by that, it appears we are all ok with that. But whenever it’s a non black that wins the fight well… there’s something fishy happening now. Stop the double standard already, because it is failing the people it is supposed to be giving the edge to.

Nothing would have happened if Zimmerman had listened to the police dispatcher and not confronted Martin. Here is how I picture things going down. Feel free to provide your own scenario.

What are you doing in this neighborhood?
None of your f*ing business.
I think you better get out of here.
I think I should beat the crap out of you.
I am giving you to a count of 3 to get the hell out of here. One, two,...

I think you can fill in the rest.

Zimmerman did not confront Martin. He was observing him from a distance in a neighborhood he owned a home in….that was being incessantly victimized by young black men stealing and damaging property and putting homeowners in distress. If it was happening in your neighborhood, you would be looking too. Beating someone down because you are pissed off at them for watching you is illegal in every state in the US, not just Florida. Thanks to the ever growing number of legal concealed carry among US citizens, that practice has become very dangerous.

Zimmerman was observing from a distance inside his car. Then he got out of the car. Only Zimmerman knows what happened at that point. We don’t even know Zimmerman’s side of the story, because he never testified. Why the heck would Martin have done anything if Zimmerman kept his distance?

Because Martin did turn back, from being within steps of the house he was staying and thought about it. He thought about returning to where Zimmerman was waiting for the cops and knocking the crap out of a creep -azz craka who was on their cell phone and watching him. Apparently it was enough to trip his trigger to act with violence. To say this is acceptable behavior is to also say its ok for blacks to beat people with no consequence any time they feel like it. As if they have a different standard of decent behavior. Well by law they don’t. . That is, I suppose, really easy to accept as long as it’s not you receiving the beating because of a perceived disrespect you weren’t expecting. Then, I guarantee the sentiments would change. He was caught being stupid and forced someone’s hand to stop him. After all….we haven’t heard the Honorable Al Sharpton’s outrage on that White kid gunned down out here recently by 3 black youths because they were bored. Thats because in his views….nothing wrong with that outcome.

Dont be that guy.

What is your source for this?

@LostInParadise it is established fact. An inconvenient truth.The problem here and at other places is, people don’t want to know it.

@woodcutter You know that just claiming something is an established fact is not proof. @LostInParadise quite reasonably asked for your source of this “established fact.” It may be a fact, but argument by assertion is a fallacious argument. Using fallacious arguments doesn’t make your assertion wrong. It may still be true. It just means that your answer to @LostInParadise did nothing to prove your assertion, and by using a well-known form of fallacious argument, you weakened your own case. If you do know that your assertion is true, then simply state the source that established this as a fact. What evidence lead you to conclude this is an established fact?

It is incumbent upon the person trying to prove the shooter was wrong by providing your own evidence….Like in the real world using all the known facts. So you prove what I said was wrong. It really doesn’t matter what I provide here does it, people? because sure as the sky is blue one of you, cough, @ETpro ..cough ,will claim it’s not good enough. If even you take the time to look at it.

Oh by the way what was it I asserted that you are taking issue with? The Aussie who was killed for being white here in Ok, and the usual black race hustlers staying predictably silent about, Or the fact Trayvon Martin was over the top (literally) beating the crap out of George Zimmerman? (witness accounts).Are you prepared to present something that confronts these? Just curious.

Here is some wisdom not often seen in discussions like this. If you have never heard of Massad Ayoob http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob ..you have now.

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/16/zimmerman-verdict-part-2-the-unarmed-teen/

And please, if you are going to demand I furnish reading material at least have the courtesy to read it.

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/17/zimmerman-verdict-part-3-who-started-it/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/19/zimmerman-verdict-the-stand-your-ground-element/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/21/zimmerman-verdict-part-5-the-gun-stuff/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/23/the-zimmerman-verdict-part-6-what-if-versus-what-is/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/24/zimmerman-verdict-part-7-why-the-jury-didnt-learn-about-trayvon-martin/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/26/zimmerman-verdict-part-8-the-quantity-of-injury-argument/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/28/zimmerman-verdict-part-9-the-propaganda-factor/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/31/zimmerman-verdict-part-10-the-semantics/

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/08/04/zimmerman-verdict-part-11-rating-the-lawyers-defense/

you get the idea by now, click on the rest of the links yourselves if….you are interested in learning something.

later..

We don’t know the details of what happened., The evidence is very sketchy. It just makes no sense to me that Martin would have started a fight for just being watched. For all Martin knew, Zimmerman could have been anybody on the street watching him. Why would he start fighting unless Zimmerman said something to provoke him?

@LostInParadise See there you go again seemingly or at least hinting at…a “person of color” is assumed to have a lower threshold of civility when disrespect ,whether real or imagined, has taken place. So what if Zimmerman spoke to him? You are giving this young punk attacker cover by doing this. It’s dangerous to cultivate this stereotype any further, because next time it could be you that pisses off one of your pet people’s and gets pounded down, not hoping for that, but just for the record…if it ever does will you have the presence of mind to want to apologize to your attacker for being white? Do you really suffer from that much guilt? Are you really that self loathing?

We don’t know the details of what happened? Huh? Pardon me but yes…we certainly do know. There is a blow by blow account of those few seconds that are backed up by a verifiable timeline, and witnesses real people, who were there. It’s just you being presented with the facts and don’t like them. So, in true liberal form…you just say it is false. Or racist. jesus christ

And by the way @flutherother this discussion happens to be about the Zimmerman / Martin case. What else would you rather discuss here in this thread if not the topic at hand? After all we are in “general” Stop following then. I plan to.

Its looking like there a lot of terribly sour grapes, here, about this case. Even those who wanted to hang Zimmerman, myself included until I started paying attention, have come to the inconvenient and apparently painful conclusion that Martin was just flat out wrong doing what he did ,and Zimmerman was left with the second worst choice of all, defending himself with the only choice available to him. And then defending himself against the shameless race hustlers who came out of the wood pile for this. A crooked lead prosecutor (Angela Corey) who intentionally withheld exculpatory evidence ,fired a forensic investigator in the case, and skipped the grand jury by indicting him herself, because she knew if the case was seen by a real grand jury there would have been no indictment and therefore no trial. Ya imagine that, a high ranking official who is supposed to be trusted trying to destroy a persons life for an agenda driven political gain. That could never happen here, right? Wrong.

I’m not gloating because it is a bad deal that someone died but we have to do the right thing and conclude this happened because of Martin’s actions, not Zimmerman’s.. Check the archives on this. Woodcutter called it early on before anyone. Why is that do you suppose? It’s because I paid attention to reality the whole time. And for me, paying attention has been a life long problem for me since I was a little kid so trust me when even I can see what the shit is going on….it’s sayin something.

Unless…there is some unwritten rule of life that black people can never be wrong. Or if they are ,there is a canned excuse ready. And to hold them responsible ever ,is racism. The kid fucked up pure and simple and here’s another revelation ol’ Woodctter knows about this. Some of you know this too. For Young Trayvon….it was a matter of time. He was going to run into the shit sooner or later. Imagine this individual in his mid 20’s. No High school diploma, no job, doing drugs all the time, and impulsive fighter….yeah I can see a great outcome just waiting to happen~

@woodcutter First, let me state that I thought the Jury came to the only reasonable conclusion given the evidence they were provided. From there, we go downhill.

The Ayoob reference appears to testify only to your bias. It has nothing to do with the case at hand. As such, I find it irrelevant to this discussion except that it shows you approach it with a predetermined bias.

More tomorrow later today. The hour grows late.

What Ayoob has demonstrated in the article you referred to is that he is anything but an impartial witness. Was he EVEN a witness?

I find the claim that Treyvon Martin say Zimmerman’s gun and reached for it highly suspect. It was in a back holster and Zimmerman has testified he was on his back on the ground in the dark. How could his claim be true.

@ETpro Is it possible that Martin felt the gun in the holster as Zimmerman tried to twist and turn to avoid the blows?

I doubt Zimmerman was just laying there passively allowing himself to get pounded, and with his legs at Zimmerman’s waist as he was sitting on him, Martin very well could have felt the holster and recognised it for what it was.

@WestRiverrat Sure it’s possible. Lots of things are possible. The point is, the evidence presented did not prove it one way or the other.

Either way in any other instance when a defender has a firearm, in this case the evidence, (that was damning to Martin and an attempt by at least two factions to make go away), clearly shows there had passed enough time since the first of Martin’s blows and the time the shot was discharged that significant damage had taken place. Now, the determining factor of just what is significant injury falls upon the person receiving it. Not a medical examiner who wasn’t there experiencing it… Because after the fact is no time to scientifically learn the extent of the damage to know if one should do something to stop it. Trust me…we all know when we are getting the shit beat out of us. If you never have, then my apologies.

And really @ETpro ”The Ayoob reference appears to testify only to your bias. It has nothing to do with the case at hand. As such, I find it irrelevant to this discussion except that it shows you approach it with a predetermined bias”.

What….the fuck? You owe us an explanation keeping in mind the last time I chastised you about ever daring to accuse anyone here of any bias. you sir have forfeited all bias integrity and are no longer permitted .You have used up all your shots. You are the king of predetermined bias. Or, the other, more folksy term of… prejudice. Did I get that one right?

You have to again explain my bias to me…humor me if you will. Proof you don’t actually read what any of us contribute if it goes against your pre-determined bias.

Quote: ”Its looking like there a lot of terribly sour grapes, here, about this case. Even those who wanted to hang Zimmerman, myself included until I started paying attention, have come to the inconvenient and apparently painful conclusion that Martin was just flat out wrong doing what he did. -end quote.
It appears that even you sometimes refuse to take yes for an answer.

To say the things Ayoob said has nothing to do with this case is ridiculous. I could almost hear all the palms smacking foreheads of those who usually side with you. You are trying to make this case somehow different from all the other legal self defense shootings that happen every day in the US. This one’s no different There are laws that ensure this. You have been suckered in by the emotions of the country’s premiere race hustlers and white guilt -progressives with obvious agendas not wanting a tragedy to go to waste. You are smarter than that, I thought.

@woodcutter Before I offer any explanation, who is this “Us” that you speak for, who all collectively demand that I explain myself?

I still say that Zimmerman must have done something to provoke Martin. Does that excuse Martin for starting the fight? Of course not, but Zimmerman must have done something. You don’t start fighting someone for just watching you. Zimmerman comes across to me as a genuine asshole. He did not show the slightest bit of remorse for what he did. His wife just divorced him. It is of course perfectly legal to be an asshole, but I would not want to have someone like Zimmerman as part of my neighborhood watch.

@LostInParadise … “but Zimmerman must have done something. You don’t start fighting someone for just watching you”.

You have not been paying attention. If you have ever, in real life, been exposed to drug abusers as well as those who have impulse control… Trayvon Martin, tossing in a high level of paranoia that is customary, if not obligatory behavior from drug use. Drugs like Marijuana,and DXM cocktail (street name “purple lean”), it can and should be easy to understand how a person who is damn near the end of his rope, could suddenly lash out because of minimal provocation. Trust when I tell you that you would be horrified if the parameters of retaliatory action from strangers where someday reduced to a mere “being looked at”. Sure there would be those who would rejoice at such a new modification of response actions but they wouldn’t be me, or you or anyone really, who embraces the civil discourse of restraint. Imagine legally having our asses handed to us because the “hander” claimed we were watching them. Society would crumble in a few hours, ala LA riots for example. http://asp.militarygear.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Korean-men-defending-Koreatown-during-the-1992-LA-riot.jpg This shit happens.

Martin, already suspended 2 times from school since the beginning of the school year, and caught red-handed with stolen property hidden in his back pack that matched the description of items recently reported stolen, ( the police dept swept the incident under the rug to cook the books in order to make the criminal acts look fewer than what was really happening), after severely beating a transit bus driver because he was asked to pay the fare, combined with his own mother moving him out of her home to live with his father, this kid’s world was spiraling out of control. This is just the stuff I have found so far on him. Thats enough to illustrate my point don’t you think? And you still wonder how it could be possible a strung out teen could possibly light up a stranger? Out here in Oklahoma, a teen shot a random jogger in the back just to see him die. This shit happens.

[mod says] We’ve asked the OP about moving this question to Social, and will restore moderated replies if we go that route.

Zimmerman is no eagle scout It is looking like there were two loose cannons facing each other. It is quite possible that Zimmerman said something inappropriate, maybe a racial epithet, that set Martin off. We will never know exactly what happened, but Zimmerman should not be part of anybody’s neighborhood watch.

@LostInParadise Yeah,yeah we’ve all heard those stories and if you do like I do and actually dig up the info on them they are talked about worse than the actual events. There is no perfect person so we all have the human right to self defense. Human right…this comes before any constitutional or god stuff recognizing this. It seems that there is some undertow of thought here that there is some form of acceptable violence allowed for name calling…assuming there was such. Am I right here? This, coming from the worst bunch of passive peace-nic ninnies ever? Suddenly punching the shit out of someone is exceptable now ,to a group of people with the muscle tone of a squid? No it is not. It is the black thing. Its ok for blacks to get shit off their collective chests that have been bugging them from time to time. Because of some historical bs that society is working hard to move on from. Not one person here would ever dare say it would be exceptable for any white person to throttle anyone for stuff like this. So it appears then that the standard of civility is not as high for Negroes? Equal rights comes packed with the minefield of equal responsibilities. Black people don’t get to pound on others because they feel frustrated.

I think its safe to say that Zimmermans watch days are behind him, but he still gets to defend himself just like you and I have the right to. That is going to be his full time job now thanks to all this. If only it was a white kid who did what Martin did and he would have been without that curse.

I have enjoyed sparring with you on this. Credit to both of us for keeping the discussion civil. I have made all the points I care to make. I will let you have the last word.

[mod says] This question has been moved to Social. Note: that doesn’t mean it’s open season for flame wars, guys.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/11/trayvon-martin-medical-examiner-claims-prosecutors-intentionally-lost-case/

http://politicalblindspot.com/george-zimmerman-please-donate-your-body-to-science/