Christian jellies: I am checking an assumption of mine, will you clarify for me?

Hmm. What exactly are you trying to clarify?

Personally, I think it depends on the individual issue. It depends on whether or not the person is arguing separation of church and state, or disagrees for another reason. I think the reason for their disagreement determines if it is an attack at their religious beliefs. Most of the time I do think it feels like criticism of their beliefs but there is that occasional time where it isn’t.

It is hard to separate many of the issues in our country from religion because principles of religion are what this country was found upon. Now, there is a strong urge from a growing secular society to try to remove those roots without touching the reasons as to why they are there in the first place. I almost feel as if it is impossible for an atheist to address these laws without attacking because….....well they are attacking because of their lack of belief, right?

Fair question. Looking forward to the answers.

There are two cases involved here: first a general criticism of anything related to belief in God, and second, a more specific criticism over specific beliefs.

Th first has to do with general intolerance of religious or spiritual beliefs by some (not all) atheists.

The second has more to do with criticism of the politics of a belief. There is widespread distrust of anything coming out of the Vatican. There is widespread distrust of anything coming out of the evangelicals. There is distrust of Muslims. There is distrust of Judaic conservatism. There is a general intolerance by everyone of other beliefs.

So I as a Catholic ( Catholics are Christians) feel there are knee jerk negative reactions, even when there is a positive development such as the Pope’s statement this week about gay priests.

Two points:

1. If someone believes something out of religious belief, they should say so up front.

2. You can’t argue over faith. You may not share someone else’s faith, but there is no basis for discussion on the matter. You either believe or do not believe, and you should tolerate the other person’s position.

I know that many do feel attacked although I see it as some sort of Orwellian double speak.
There are plenty of people in the world who are TRUELY attacked for their faith and these claims belittle the magnitude of their suffering.

This wouldn’t be such a tricky question if so many controversial topics weren’t listed in your group of stuff you’ve been debating. Of those listed however, the only that is ambiguous of religious beliefs is abortion. Meaning there are a lot of pro-life non-Christians who oppose abortion for moral reasons not linked to religion. The other debates do, however, have their roots in religion.

That said, you want consensus on your hypothesis, which is: “The religious don’t separate (religion and political/societal matters) regarding some topics, and so a disagreement with their position on the subject at hand is like an attack on their religious beliefs. Is it?”

I think to generalize that all Christians feel their beliefs are under attack by those who oppose a given issue is a huge fallacy. Also, Christians can distinguish between societal, moral or cultural impacts apart from religion on given subjects.

Take gay marriage for example. While some Christians might argue against it simply because of what’s in the Bible, those same Christians could form equally strong arguments against it based on statistics that show alarmingly high drug abuse and STD rates among the gay population. This is just an example, not my debate platform mind you.

As for myself, I’m a Christian and I don’t feel my beliefs under fire if someone lauds gay rights or champions the notion of looser abortion laws. I simply have my own moral and cultural position on the matter, with relevant ties to my beliefs but they are not inseparably bound.

In conclusion, think about our laws, our system of society and how religion ties in. The Bible is a set of laws, it is the most distributed, most read book in the world with more copies sold than any other. Christianity is a widely practiced faith spanning the entire globe, and provided (along with Catholicism) much of the foundation of our country in its origin. Given these truths, you must acknowledge the inherent presence of Christianity as a catalyst and balance for our laws, mores and folkways. It played (still plays) a big part in our society, it’s just hard to see these days.

Unless someone specifically mentions religion in regard to those topics you mentioned, then no, it doesn’t feel like my beliefs are being attacked. I will see said topics being discussed calmly, until someone does throw religion into it, like, “We will never see progress made in these areas until those damned religious conservatives die out…” or something along those lines. Unfortunately, that type of thing happens more often than not, and it throws the whole discussion off.

I often find myself in a difficult position in those debates, because while I do believe in God, I also believe in gay rights, abortion rights (to an extent), but I also believe that prayer should be allowed in schools for those who choose to participate, and that it’s silly to get pissed at someone for saying, Merry Christmas.

The main problem seems to be that many atheists want every bit of religion snuffed out and made invisible, so they feel justified in crapping on someone else’s human rights. On the flip side, I’ve seen hardcore Christians who crap on atheists’ rights too, so it’s so difficult to be stuck smack in the middle of those debates and not know how to express yourself properly.

” no one should be showing disrespect for their feelings.”

People are disrespected, not feelings.

A common confusion.

I’m unaware that “there have been some Jellies wishing religious questions weren’t asked here”.

I thought the questions were fine. It’s the disrespectful answers, from both sides, that attack a specific person, which are the problem for some.

But, every Christian should know, that Jesus warned of persecution. He wasn’t bothered by it. I don’t think I should be either. But Jesus was also very cutting with the “sword of his mouth”, sometimes telling his own to “get thee hence Satan” and running the money lenders out of the temple.

So really, if your’e gonna flame a Christian, fine. Don’t expect it to bother them though. They might even offer you the other cheek to flame more. Some would say they encourage persecution. For when they get it, they are suffering for the sake of their Lord.

But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t expect some lip in return.

I would like to preface my comments by stating that I no longer consider myself a Christian, as far as spirituality or religion; my morality, however, is very much in keeping with the two ‘greatest’ commandments, simply because it makes a whole lot of sense to me.

That being said, I realize that many, probably most, political beliefs are based upon an individual’s personal morality, which in turn may be formed by religious belief (or non-belief). I enjoy a heated, even emotional debate on any subject, but when a thread spirals downward into the flames of personal attack (pun intended) I tend to avoid it until things settle down (if they ever do!)

We have one very prominent Jelly who has a habit of using their logical arguments but makes a point to use language that is shocking and odious to the majority of the people he/she is trying to “educate”.

Written like that it comes across far more like flaming than otherwise. Can anyone here understand the point I’m trying to get across?

I’ll be real honest, I’m not great at debate, I’m not a full time studier of the bible and I rarely attend church anymore, but I’m a Christian who lives life as a Christian to the best of my ability.

What I call discussion, which is what I do with family and friends of different belief systems, is listen and discuss while always being polite. If you’re polite about it, I’ll answer just about any question I’m posed, if you’re nasty, I’ll log off and won’t have as much respect for you in future.

My root beliefs are based on Christianity, but I’m self-aware and mature enough to factor in personal experience, statistics, etc…before coming to any conclusion. Like gay marriage, I’m for it, even though most Christians I know are not. God gave us a brain, we have to use it. :) Nice Q, @JLeslie, I like it.

random point because it’s bothering me, “Xmas instead of Christmas” is in no way anti-christian. ‘X’ or the longer ‘Xp’ is a shorthand for ‘christ’, and has been used as such for over a millennia. Hence the term ‘Xtians’ that gets used sometimes. If someone uses it thinking they’re removing the religious element, they’re doing it wrong.

Interruption over. carry on.

@BhacSsylan Because Christmas is when we celebrate the birth of Christ, removing the Christ from Christmas is seen as a secular, inappopriate form of txtspk to a lot of Christians. It may not be true, but perception is everything right? :)

I would never debate an issue like abortion or gay marriage despite considering myself a believer. It is not for me to substantiate a claim, it is for individuals to decide for themselves which is right for them. I do not feel christianity and laws is a fight worth fighting, since it is not my fight. If I saw a person with a notice saying ‘Being queer is against Gods word’ I’d personally shove it where the sun don’t shine. Who made him/her God? I hate judgemental people. I also run away from believers who talk about hell and damnation. I also dislike ‘religious’ people thinking they possibly have OCD or some other mental disorder.

My beliefs are personal and have been constructed over time. I’d like to think most people have the brains and audacity to do the same for themselves.

@LornaLove I don’t understand what you mean about religious people thinking they have “OCD or some other mental disorder.”

@WillWorkForChocolate Again this is a personal opinion. Many mental disorders do manifest as a symptom religiosity, or another as projection an example would be ‘Kill all peadophiles or put them to death and eye for an eye’. Reaction formation: an abhorrent idea that is emanating from the self as a person desires children. That kind of thing. Or an adherance to strict rules 1. Wake up and pray at 5am. 2. Shout loudly in the streets about Jesus 3. Only hang out with christians as there is a fear. (Anxiety based fear). Also loads of antisocial personalities use God and the bible to con people. Like clear away evil spirits and charge you for their pamphlets and their prayers. Those are just a few.

@LornaLove Interesting take.

I’m still a little confused, but okay…

@WillWorkForChocolate (My take) She’s talking about the Bible ‘spare the rod, spoil the child’-type people who use that to justify physically abusing their children. Or the men who use scripture “A womman should be submissive to her husband if her husband is submissive to God” for evil purposes.

People will always be around that will skew anything to suit their twisted purposes, like politicians…lol

I was raised in a very religious family. Several of my uncles were ministers in the church and they quoted scripture for every single action taken every day. They believed that if you weren’t saved according to their religion you were doomed and it was their job to save you.

@KNOWITALL @WillWorkForChocolate There is also (I suppose we are straying from the question, but I find this stuff interesting) the idea that some religious visions can be manifestations of disorders that affect the brain. Karen Armstrong writes about this in a few of her books – she is a former Catholic nun, but while she was in the church, her temporal-lobe epilepsy gave her visions and strange trances that she took as signs from god. She also writes a little about it in this Guardian article.

Armstrong is still a believer; her experiences have not led her away from god – although indirectly, because of the treatment she received for being ill, I suppose they did lead her away from the church. I highly recommend her autobiographies, Through the Narrow Gate and The Spiral Staircase.

@WillWorkForChocolate I can see why your example would set off an argument and put Religious people on the defensive. But, what if an atheist simply states most of the people against gay marriage are part of the Christian right. Is that going to start something? Let’s say that is statistically true. It is not saying most Christians are against gay marriage. It is saying most people against gay marriage are part of the Christian right. I guess that point does not need to be raised at all, during a discussion, but isn’t it important to know why someone has an opinion to be able to debate an issue?

Also, I find it interesting you changed what I wrote about happy holidays to atheists are upset about Merry Christmas. It seems to me Christians feel their religion is being squeezed out when a store decides to go with Happy Holidays. I think most atheists who argue Happy Holidays is better just think Christians don’t get that not everyone celebrates Christmas. I don’t feel like Judaism is being attacked when someone says Merry Christmas, but maybe a little ignored. It makes no sense to many of us why an inclusive stament like happy holidays could be upsetting to anyone. Anyway, this is exactly what I am wondering about, do Chrisians feel under attack just because someone says they prefer Happy Holidays to Merry Christmas?

@snowberry Do you mean just profanity? Or, does it have to be a real attack that might not have any profanity, but demeans and dismisses the point of view of atheists?

@LornaLove I’m confused also. I don’t understand how you are tying this to the Q? Maybe you are off on a tangent I don’t understand. Why are you bringing mental health issues into it? I don’t think atheists or religious people have a more likelihood than the other for mental illness. True a common hellucination take on religious overtones, but still, it isn’t that religious people are more likely to hellucinate or be OCD or whatever.

@glacial I will, thanks for listing those.

I just feel we need to be very careful how we define and discuss mental illness because of the stigma attached and so that we don’t minimalize schizophrenia, anorexia and other life-threatening issues.

@KNOWITALL Agreed.

“Happy Holidays” sound so bland and insincere and meaningless. If you’re offended by Christmas then there is something wrong with you.

During a debate on issues like gay marriage; saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas; writing Xmas instead of Christmas; abortion rights; teaching evolution; prayer in school

Gay marriage: I am for it.
Happy Holidays: It rankles me a little. I prefer Merry Christmas, but I understand not everyone believes.
Abortion rights: I am Pro Choice.
Teaching evolution: I believe in evolution. I also believe it is guided by the hand of God.
Prayer in school: It shouldn’t be forced, but it shouldn’t be prevented. I prayed hard right before a Trig test, though it didn’t help.

I am a Christian, as most know, but I am more socially accepting than many I have met. I also am more socially accepting than a lot of non-Christians, who use derogatory words to describe other peoples origins.
I think the Bible is largely misunderstood, and has suffered in translation and presentation.

@JLeslie “does it have to be a real attack that might not have any profanity, but demeans and dismisses the point of view of atheists?” I think you meant theists here.

This goes for either athiests or theists, but yes, if you are trying to make a point by providing an example, it’s not wise to begin with an example that would be considered to be weird, sick, strange, etc. by most people’s point of view. It’s worse if you then go on to explain how disgusting the behavior of the people in your example are to you. If you do, it’s a sneaky but effective way to provide an inflammatory atmosphere to the discussion without actually having it modded because it’s an outright attack.

I have seen this tactic used over and over by one prominent atheist here, and they always just manage to stay inside the guidelines of “not flaming”. I’m sorry, but unfortunately, because this person is so very vocal, it makes you all look bad from a theist’s point of view.

Edit: There other people here who do this, but I’m referring to one particular member here in a recent discussion. I think it’s become an art form. LOL

@flutherother I really don’t know any who gets riled up by Merry Christmas, although @WillWorkForChocolate has stated she does. I believe her, but I think it is rare. Happy Holidays includes everyone, why don’t you want to include everyone? It doesn’t exclude Christmas. Now you are another person annoyed with Happy Holidays.

So back to the main question, do you feel like Christianity is being attacked if I say I prefer Happy Holidays? Or, if I say Happy Holidays makes sense in diverse communities do you feel like other religions are being shown preference?

@snowberry Obviously, it is unfair to let one person, or a small group of people, represent a fairly large community. That’s exactly what theists don’t want atheists to do.

I wasn’t trying to change what you said about Happy Holidays. I used it as an example that way, because I believe stores started saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas because too many people complained about the use of Merry Christmas.

It doesn’t make me feel like my beliefs are under attack if someone says Happy Holidays. But if someone seriously takes offense to my saying Merry Christmas, it does make me think they’re a jerk who likes to play victim over something benign that was only meant as a happy, I’m wishing you well, sort of thing.

@JLeslie Well “fair” isn’t what fluther is about, in my opinion and experience. But I hang around anyway, because I don’t need “fair” to enjoy myself.

Edit: The obvious slant against theists here has driven off more than a few of us. I hang around to support the few people who ask for real help from a Christian perspective.

@snowberry I’m glad you’re still hanging around!

@WillWorkForChocolate So you believe that is why stores changed, but you haven’t actually heard a bunch of athesist state they are offended or angry about it. Is that right? It would not surprise me if atheists, Jews, and even some Christians suggested it might be better or nicer to use Happy Holidays, because it acknowledges not everyone celebrates Christmas. I do absolutely agree with you that anyone Merry Christmas is basically a benign, well wishes, spirit of the season gesture, and no reason to play victim. I believe it about both Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas. My typical example though for people who are adamant about Merry Christmas is how about we forget Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas and wish everyone Happy Chanukah? I am not sure Christians who get bothered by Happy Holidays really think it through as if they are in the minority position. They take being in the majority for granted.

@snowberry Ok, maybe fair is a bad word, what about hypocritical? That is if you don’t want to be judged as a Christian based on some of the more vocal and radical ones here, in the media, etc.

I am very happy you stay to give your opinions and all the other fellow Christians. I learn so much here.

@WillWorkForChocolate I have a typo in there the word anyone towards the middle should have been deleted.

No, I have heard atheists say they are personally offended by it.

@WillWorkForChocolate Ok, just clarifying. As I said, I believe you. I’m not questioning your claim, just making sure I didn’t misunderstand.

Do you agree Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas both have the same intent? Well wishes.

Yes, totally agree with the sentiments behind them both, but I still think it’s pointless for someone to be rude if someone says Merry Christmas to them. If it’s close to Christmas, I’m shopping, with a happy skip to my step, humming along with the Christmas music playing in the background, and feeling the festive mood, I will most likely smile at strangers and say, “Merry Christmas!” It pisses me off if, instead of nodding and saying “Same to you” or “Happy holidays!” they stop me and tell me off for saying Merry Christmas. I’ve actually had that happen once; I was shocked! I didn’t say “Fuck off” I said “Merry Christmas” for crying out loud! Ridiculous.

And about the Happy Chanukah thing- I jokingly coined “Happy Hannuchristanzaafestule” to cover everything. (Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanzaa, Festivus, and Yule :D)

@WillWorkForChocolate We agree.

@JLeslie As I mentioned before, one person who is allowed to encourage a flaming atmosphere without actually “flaming”, and gets away with it, does the job quite well for all the rest of that group (and yes, from what I can see, this person is very much supported by the rest of that group). No wonder theists get defensive. Anyone would under those circumstances. So, I don’t think your point stands.

If Fluther has a stand against about flaming, and we allow that sort of nonsense, yes, I’d say it is hypocritical. But on Fluther, what is and isn’t hypocritical is all up to a person’s opinion, and point of view. Still, it is certainly a double standard.

However, our lives are full of pretending to be fair and yet having double standards. So since it’s everywhere, hypocrisy doesn’t mean so much I suppose.

Edit: I’ll also mention that it would not be possible to police flaming behavior that is just barely inside the line of acceptable. It would be up to that group to call them on it, which isn’t going to happen here.

@Snowberry My aunt was very combative when she denied God. I have a theory about that anger from atheists.

@KNOWITALL Yes, me too. Hurting people hurt other people. It’s true too.

@snowberry Well, I actually said basically the same thing about calling out our own so to speak on a recent Q when we see they are being over the top mean. But, I what I meant regarding hypocrisy was not that someone should be allowed or not allowed to flame on. What I meant was hypocrisy related to judging all atheists by one oboxious loud mouth when certainly theists don’t want to be judged that way. I know Christians come with a multitude of opinions and beliefs because I don’t just listen to one negative or upsetting voice and have that one blaring in my head. Look at the difference between Filmfann and Nullo as a simple example where their stand is so very different on many issues. I believe them to both be good Christians.

Forget fluther, I am also talking about in real life. Do you know any atheists? Friends with any? Any in your family? Love any of them? I am not assuming anything about whether you do or don’t associate with any in real life. But, real life certainly trumps the internet for me.

@JLeslie I have a very limited “real life” social life due to circumstances beyond my control. But I have played a certain multiplayer game for a number of years, and I have come to know several athiests there quite well (some of whom are gay), and even friended them on Facebook. Obviously, we don’t have the question and answer format we have here, but we do have an extremely active guild chat room, and it can get quite raunchy at times, in spite of having a few game moderators in the guild. I am not shy about calling them on chat behavior, but I try to be as kind as I can under the circumstances, and they have told me many times that they “love” me for it (which floored me). At this point they have asked me to be a Unit Leader (sort of a guild moderator). I have not yet accepted because currently I’ve had health issues.

@JLeslie ‘here:http

here

here

Reaction Formation

Projection

I used this example as to why I would never base my own personal morals on religion . Instead I have a personal relationship with God.

@JLeslie Oh! I forgot! How silly of me! My son in law and two granddaughters are atheists. ROFL!

I don’t feel at all that my religion is being attacked, here on Fluther, or elsewhere. If Christians can’t handle criticism or even insults, they are weak and they aren’t following the example of Jesus Christ, who was criticized and insulted his entire adult life.

I’m just tired sometimes about recycling old arguments over and over again without gaining new insights.

@snowberry Funny.

@mattbrowne I don’t like to say weak, but I do think some people are very unaccustomed to having their thoughts challenged or debating in general. Arguing is only seen as a negative and is stressful, rather than seen as a way to gain knowledge.

@JLeslie – In my opinion, this is when religion gets dangerous. It’s a shame when some people are very unaccustomed to it or think it’s too stressful, because they seem to form mentally-gated communities with ideal conditions for intolerance and fanaticism to grow.

@mattbrowne Well, many religions discourage questioning. I associate strict Christian homes with children who don’t talk back and obedience to God and adults without question. I think households like this in the true strictest form are in the minority in the US now, but the culture of it, the cultural influence sort of persists in some homes. I think more destructive than anything is when a wife is very submissive or passive with her husband. Because then the adult example in the home is no conflict, never two opinions strongly debated and resolution found. Or, not seeing respect for differing opinions. I also think this in an extreme is rare in America at this point. Although, I think culturally women of all faith or no faith still tend to be more passive and just go along even when they disagree and try to avoid conflict. More of a matter of society than religion. My husband and I were watching TV the other day and this woman on a reality show was just going on and on, complaining, had to have her way, and my husband said how awful she was. she was over the top, but I also think women are expected to smile and just go along to some extent.

I only mention Christianity because that is the majority in my country, Jews tend to be raised to question and debate, the eastern religions tend to be very accepting of others and seek knowledge.

@mattbrowne To a degree, you’re right, from my perception. Sometimes there are no answers, sometimes you’re supposed to ask God or a pastor, but the word is ‘taught’ and we’re indoctrinated from birth to conform to a certain set of beliefs.

@JLeslie Women are supposed to be submissive in most sects I’ve attended church at. I think I mentioned Fundamental Baptis as one of the most strict, as far as dress, speech, submission, etc… As a child, you’re not really expected to conform, but upon maturity, you stop daycare during service and attend the actual adult services, and that’s when all the teaching kicks in and you’re expected to tow the line.

@JLeslie – Almost all fundamentalist forms of religions discourage questioning. In Islam criticism can get you killed, like it did in Christianity 400 years ago. Most fundamentalist forms of religions are a danger to society, although there are some exceptions, like the Amish for example.

Judaism has created a great tradition of debate. An excellent way to understand this is watching the movie Yentl. Yet, there are quarters in West Jerusalem full of intolerant ultra-orthodox Jews who seem very offended by debate and disagreement with their views.

@KNOWITALL I think it varies how couples interpret submissive. I have Christian friends who practice, or try to practice the wife being submissve, but in reality it is not submissive to me, they still work as a team, value each others opinions, etc.

@JLeslie My husband would tell you immediately that I’m not very submissive at all, actually I’m quite the control freak – lol
Which is why I call myself a ‘secular Christian’, I’m not the best Christian and never claimed to be, there are way too many ‘must do’s’ to conform to a religion, but my love for God doesn’t change, nor does my personal relationship with God.

@KNOWITALL – It depends on the religious teachers. Many are against indoctrination.

@KNOWITALL – Secular Christians are the best Christians. Here’s a great definition:

Secularism is a legal, social and political framework that is built on universal principles of human rights, that guarantees the right to freedom of religion—from straightforward atheism and iconoclastic modernism, all the way to (and including) devout piety and traditional way of life. The contributors of this site represent the full gamut of belief, but have in common the commitment to respect differences of belief and lifestyle.

@mattbrowne Many say they are anyway.

I agree on secular Christians, because I truly feel Jesus was more loving, giving and less judgemental than most Christian Christians…lol I try to imagine what people here would say to Mary Magdalene and it’s not pretty.

@mattbrowne Absolutely some Jewish sects don’t tolerate questioning and also have some very strict rules for the roles of men and women. But, they are a small percentage of those who identify Jewish. Christians on the other hand have, or had, a much larger percentage so I associate the religion with it more. However, my association for cultural impact might be very misguided. Maybe it has more to do with the culture of the south separate from religion, or being in more rural areas, or less availability to education (again I am talking about 50+ years ago).

I’ve been a Christian for 40 years now. I have been in all sorts of churches. For many years I attended denominations where you had lots of rules and had to tow the line. But I choose to leave because they were very passive aggressive, controlling, and abusive on many levels, and I even became abusive myself. I speak about it a bit in my fluther profile.

Now I am extremely vocal about such nonsense. Interestingly, hubby supports me because after he calmed down, he could see it too and he is so sorry for how things went. He has radically changed his own motives and behavior as a result. We now attend a mission oriented church every Sunday, but we won’t tolerate rules, and they actually don’t have any that I have seen.

@snowberry What rules? I think @KNOWITALL alluded to this on another Q. This is all new to me I think. Unless I just maybe call it something different.

@JLeslie It’s just guidelines for living a Christian life and behavior modification basically. To me, it feels like “do these things and you are worthy of love” and I find that unacceptable because Jesus didn’t teach that.

I’m not sure if I shared this before, but one Southern Baptist preacher called my mom into his office to discuss her starting a Christian singles group at the church, and he ended up calling her a whore.

It’s kind of hard to imagine if you haven’t been part of that world, but it does exist. Some Amish are subject to pretty strict rules, too, it’s not just in this area.

@snowberry Abusive is a good word for it, which is why I rebelled. My mom is still pretty disappointed in me for not going to church, but I tried to explain again last week and she doesn’t get it. Even after the true story above. :(

@KNOWITALL Worthy of God’s love, or love from those around you?

Definitely in certain sects of Judaism there are expectations for Jews to act a certain way, dress a certain way. Judaism has an incredible amount of rules and rituals if the person is an observant Jew. It always seemed to me the family is the most important thing and the community. Well, probably they would state pleasing God and following his laws is most improtant, but those center around the family and community. Still, I think there is probably pressure associated with it if the person doesn’t fit in, doesn’t feel comfortable with the rules.

I can’t believe he called her a whore. But, I wouldn’t let one preacher destroy my identity with a religion. I see Christians bounce from one type of Christianity to another, except for Catholics, they are less likely I think to do it. I thought your mom was Catholic?

I was called into the pastor’s office to be reprimanded for adding a porn star to my dog’s MySpace page.

That was the single dumbest thing I was ever in trouble for. Usually it was a heinous crime, like wearing a t-shirt with a pink cartoon skull on it, or playing with Yu-Gi-oh! cards. There was a whole sermon preached on the witchcraft of playing cards…

@JLeslie Both really, they make it seem like it’s the end of the world if you disobey or dare to be yourself. Submit, parrot the party lines, do what your told, obviously I’m just not that kind of girl – lol

It’s not all bad, and some people need that kind of personal structure. Some of the funnest times in my life were in church, & I learned a lot of things that I still remember today, and for children the stories and old ladies pinching your cheeks, cooking great huge meals, vacation bible school crafts and friends, it was great until my mind expanded to see the bigger picture. But my mom always encouraged me to search spiritually, old hippy you know.

No, I’m not a cradle Catholic, I converted from So Baptist to Catholicism against my whole families wishes when I was 17 yrs old and moved out as well.

I went through a few phases in my teen years where I studied several religions, including Native American Indian, trying to find what made me feel at one with God and the world. Catholicism was the least judgemental and restrictive, but I still am not 100% on a few things.

Mom is an old-school So Baptist Hellfire & Damnation church. The people are nice, but I refuse to live my life in fear of anything, and I won’t be screamed at in the name of God, unless it’s God Himself doing the screaming.

@Seek_Kolinahr Geesh, dumb, no wonder we can communicate on this so well, we’ve both seen the negatives of religion. I drew closer to God and shut out his followers though, my faith in Him never wavered for some reason. :)

OK I am really putting myself out here with this one, really allowing myself to be vulnerable to you guys. Please don’t abuse my honesty.

In my situation, we started out in a church that demanded that members not drink any sort of alcohol. We could only sing the Psalms (no hymns) a capella because the use of instruments in worship was “unbiblical”. This was the “only way to worship God” The whole atmosphere was a downer in my experience (sermons were always about how bad the other guy was, and how right we were), and it was heightened when Hubby began physically abusing me. This went on for many years, until I tried to get the pastor in another denomination to help me, He threatened to have me “disciplined” through the church board, whatever that means. That’s when I left.

After Hubby and I got some marriage counseling, I asked the same pastor to cancel my church membership and he refused because I was “delusional”. By this time, Hubby was starting to see the light, and he about had a fit because of the pastor’s refusal. LOL

There really ARE abusive churches but others are not (churches are just made up of people, remember). It sounds like @Seek_Kolinahr and I have a somewhat similar history, The difference is that even though I too was traumatized, I had the maturity of an adult as I worked things through, while she went through it being traumatized as a child (which in my opinion is much worse). And in both our cases love, kindness and affection were totally lacking and this might be the worst thing of all.

It also seems as though it took both of us about the same amount of time to leave- me because I was too brain washed to see my way clear, while she simply had to wait until she was old enough to escape.

Edit: I forgot to mention that part of the abuse I endured was being labeled as “mentally ill” and needing medication. I was not mentally ill; I was abused and depressed! I got rid of the abuse and the depression left! Sheesh, what a concept.

@snowberry Mwahhhh, thanks for allowing yourself to be vulnerable with us. :)

People don’t always understand that REAL open and honest communication can only happen when you do feel safe, even here on fluther. I think that’s actually what some of the religious/ spiritual folks have been trying to say in other Q’s, so thanks for verbalizing that.

@snowberry That is just awful. Thank goodness you got away. I just hate hearing stories of abuse that is condoned or even promoted by a religion. Well, really by a particular church or subgroup.

A friend of mine is an ordained Baptist Minister, but he wound up not being very involved with the Baptists in the end because he says he likes to have a drink or a cigar once in a while. I honestly never understood the no dancing, no music thing. I am pretty sure Once asked a fluther Q about the no dancing. I woman who was in my zumba class used get lectured by her father about doing that sort of exercise. Sometimes they do have vulgar oves, I hate when they do the pelvic thrust thing, especially when there are young teenage girls in my class, I find so unladylike. I guess I am old.

I want to stress that not all churches are like the ones that Seek and I have known in the past (as I explained above). Hubby is now a leader of a fairly large religious non-profit, and he is not shy about his stand on abuse, either in church, in his organization, or in marriage. In fact several times he’s given speeches/sermons that he can tell exactly how well a man treats his wife simply by meeting her. I think he’s very perceptive that way, because it’s not always obvious to everyone else. The fact that he really can tell really sets some guys on edge, I can assure you.

Edit: It’s all about how the wives carry themselves, and how they relate to others.

@snowberry Not to worry, I don’t think anyone is thinking all churches.

@JLeslie Some people do think that way. That’s why I said it.

I know the church I grew up in is an outlier.

However, after so many years of biblical literalism, going to a church with one of the scorned “white-out bibles” seemed illogical. Changing denominations was never an option, because if mine (which was the True Way™ ) was wrong, what made any other any more true?

And if there was no definite truth in Christianity, what could guarantee the truth of any other god?

I have no good reason to latch on any God, you see. If there is one up there, and it cares what I think of it, it should know how to reach me. If it doesn’t care it might as well not be there. If it’s not there at all, I’m not going to waste any more of my time looking for it.

@snowberry I was only trying to be reassuring. You actually already had stated there are abusive churches but others are not. So, even in your own words you had already said not “all.” I don’t think anyone thinks all churches are so extremely horrible anyway, even without you saying it.

What I find interesting is how rare it is that Christians admit to horribleness going on in some churches. I feel like they think it reflects on all Christianity, or that atheists and people who tend to be negative about religion will run with it as proof Christianity is terrible. I think admitting and criticizing your own reinforces there are Christian churches and people who don’t fit the negative stereotypes. You as a Christian will no longer oarticipate in such a church. On fluther filmfann and Judi do this consistently, they call out extremism, knowitall more recently does this as well. Maybe you have also and I just haven’t keyed into it.

I don’t mean you have to reveal your personal experience specifically, I am sure that was difficult for you, and I appreciate your sharing such a hard time, but certainly we can say when something is abusive, bring attention to it, and work to rid our country of it.

@JLeslie I have noticed that very often here, people do not thoroughly read posts, and rarely completely read long threads. I restated it for that reason, because who wants more drama?

@snowberry Fair enough.

@JLeslie “What I find interesting is how rare it is that Christians admit to horribleness going on in some churches. I feel like they think it reflects on all Christianity, or that atheists and people who tend to be negative about religion will run with it as proof Christianity is terrible.”

This has not been my experience at all. We talk about it all the time, but we do it among ourselves, rather than bringing it to the media where an athiest might hear of it. You are right. Abusive people are always secretive. It is embarrassing to speak about such things,

@snowberry How does talking about it among yourselves help improve the opinions and views of the people on the outside of the community looking in?

@JLeslie It’s an ongoing problem, and people being what they are, it’s not going to go away quickly. It’s not like every Christian organization is connected to and accountable to every other one. In theory, it should run like that, but it doesn’t.

Bringing the media in never fixes the problem either, and that’s likely the only way an atheist would hear of such goings on. The media are only looking for a scoop, and if they can fan the flames to get more drama and coverage, that’s in their best interest. You see it all the time.

@snowberry I’m not even talking about media. I was just talking about fluther really. Or, it could be talking about it just during a conversation with friends. I am not talking about some official outing of a scandalous nature.

I can only speak for myself. It seems my best efforts here end in extremely poor results, as far as improving the opinions and views of flutherites about “the church” or “Christianity”, whatever that means to them.

It’s disheartening, really. I’m really glad I don’t have to relate on a real life basis to many of the people who seem to think so poorly of me here..

I’ve even seen what I have intended to be kind remarks here be met with hostility. It’s sad when people take offense where none is intended.

I don’t know who you mean by they think poorly of you, or what exactly poorly means. They may disagree with you.

When people come out about abuse the abuser is the one who carries the embarrasment. They no longer have power if they are exposed.

I will admit that I do generalize (I might have said it on this Q not sure I definitely said it recently somewhere) that I stereotype Christianity to reinforce being obedient, don’t rock the boat, don’t question the faith, and in my opinion means a lot of Christians cannot easily handle conflict and it is extremely distressing for them. They see it as an attack, rather than just a question or contradicting opinion. I guess maybe since Jews are always a minority we are used to not always being in sync with people around us. We don’t care if not everyone agrees with us. Some of it is just cultural. My Catholic Italian friends scream at each other while they disgree about something, but they love each other and after the argument everything is fine. They crack me up, while my MIL would be distressed in that situation. My Catholic inlaws freak out if people raise their voices, it is the end of the world. So there is two sets of Catholics who are very different. Other Christin faiths I am sure are just as varied.

My SIL says all the time “what is the difference between these extreme Christians and Muslims and yet those same Christians speak out about Muslims.” It all look so hypocritical. She is a Catholic for full disclosure. If Christians were speaking out against extreme in general they would not be categorized negatively. Jews all the time criticize the very conservative Jews in Israel. We, whether we live in Israel or America, don’t feel like it reflects on the religion as a whole. We are not one group of robots made from the same mold. Nobody is within their group.

I cannot think of anything I have said here that has improved how people think of Christians and Christianity. As a Christian, I have already officially, apparently, been labeled as naïve. That doesn’t look too good if my goal is to improve the way people here see Christianity.

The original reference to me being naïve stemmed from the fact that I practice alternative medicine, and that I am a Christian. The fact that I have had far better results going to an alternative holistic MD than I ever have going to a “regular” MD apparently makes me naïve.

As for judgmental Christians (obviously, I’m only one person, so I cannot speak for everyone), Recently I taught English as a second language to a family of birqa wearing women for several years. I came to love them and they came to care for me to the point where they actually “adopted” me into their family, and I was welcome in their home. They believe in honor killing, and I have heard horror stories of how life is for them back in Yemen. But apparently they’d like to adopt that same lifestyle here in the US. For example, My Muslim friends are in favor of Sharia law becoming law in our land (a frightening concept to me). Doesn’t mean I love my friends less, but I would sure dig in my heels about that. I could go on, but you get my idea.

Does this make me judgmental? I suppose it does. Label confirmed.

@snowberry I judge that too. It actually pisses me off they come to the US and want sharia law inacted, or let’s say at minimum respected as religious freedom. But, there are Christians who want the same for their “Christian” beliefs. And, that is where the hypocrisy is. It varies on your POV issue to issue. Some might see corporal punishment as rooted in Christianity and additionaly a parent’s right, and fight for it to stay legal, while other people might say I don’t care what your religion says about it, I want it against the law, and law trumps religion. I am not saying all Christians are for corporal punishment, just saying some Christians might feel justified in utilizing that sort of discipline because of their religion and try to argue religious freedom. I don’t think we should couple up religion with law directly, we can argue morality and ethics without going back to a specific religion, know what I mean?

As far as being naive about medicine, what does that have to do with Christianity? I don’t even understand the connection. Who cares if someine thinks you are naive about holistic medicine. Let them explain to you why or why not they feel it is a bad idea and then you can look at all the material and your own experience and decide what works for you. Naive does not have to be a very negative word. Neither is ignorant, but I see a lot of jellies get pretty ruffled by the word ignorant.

@JLeslie Oh, they explained, harangued, and provided all sorts of proof how bad what I do is. This was a while ago, but it still stings. But it’s a good example of how easy it is to judge someone because you don’t agree with them.

On that particular thread, this person somehow made the connection in their minds, and asked.

That was a few years ago, but since then, I have proof of what a lousy job a typical MD does. Never in my entire life (I’m approaching retirement, and I’ve been to many doctors), has any conventional medical doctor tested me for heavy metal poisoning. I have it, and I’m being treated for it. Likewise for a parasite, that I just got rid of. I never would have been able to address these things if I had not gone to a holistic doctor. I could go on, but this should be enough to make my point. Which is to say, who’s naïve again?

Oh I remember now. It’s because I was going on “blind faith” that alternative remedies actually worked. LOL.

@snowberry I don’t think many people here could think any worse of Chrisitianity. I feel like a traitor sometimes even discussing the negatives, because no one seems to believe the positives.

Much of my love for others and my inner child, my peace in the face of adversity, my marriage, my mended relationship with my mother, all of who I am has been directly influenced by God, the teachings of Jesus and my personal relationship with both. It’s very difficult to explain my personal feelings and opinions in a hostile environment.

I appreciate you @snowberry.

@KNOWITALL Hostile? Naw. It’s kind, affectionate, and loving. Must be our imagination, Right? :D

I appreciate you too, along with the other very resilient Christians here.

@JLeslie Anyone who grew up being abused in a Christian home as so many atheists here claim to have been, is not likely going to hear anything any Christian has to say about how good real Christianity is, because after all, they have their history, and it is real. I can’t do a thing about that, except to pray for them, which I do, a lot. As I mentioned before, hurting people hurt other people, and they are not shy about how hard they hit with their verbal clubs, either. Then they claim it’s all “just for discussion” and not intended to actually hurt anyone. But it hurts just the same, regardless of the intention of the person with the club. Surely you don’t actually expect us to not mind the pain.

This amounts to prejudice, and it works regardless of whether you grew up being abused as a black kid in a white world, or being abused as a child in a Christian home, you will grow up with very strong opinions of just how bad “those” people are, and nothing anyone can say will change their opinion. It’s to be expected. Therefore, there is absolutely nothing we Christians can do here to actually change how people see us here.

There is a definite prejudice on the part of the majority of atheists against Christians here, and unless you are a Christian who is actually closer to atheist than Christian, you are gonna feel the heat. It comes with the territory, and it’s why only the most resilient Christians here remain.

@snowberry – For the record: I admit to horribleness going on in some Christian churches. Let’s not forget the other churches that are out there too, like the ones MLK preached in. Or the churches in East Germany which played a positive and vital role in ending the totalitarian system in a nonviolent way.

Yep, I go to one now. It’s pretty cool.

@snowberry So, you are saying that the Christians who were abused and became atheists, are more likely to be more vocal and less tolerant of Christians? I wonder if that is true? That might be a good Q. I was raised atheist. Jewish, but atheist. Religion was such a nonissue among family and friends. Most of my friends were Catholic.

I really think something is very different the last 30 years. The Republicans really pursued the religious right and it has made religion into a big battle in America. I really believe for many Christians being a Republican is related to being a good Christian. My dad, who while I was growing up never talked negatively about people in other religions. Now, he has become more and more disgusted with Christians, but more specifically the religious right, he has left the Republican party after 40 years, and says he won’t vote for any Republicans as long as the religious right continues to have so much influence in the party, he has never before in his life voted party lines, my mother, a life long Democrat, still votes for Republicans.

My point with all of that is not to go off on a political tangent, but only to say I really really believe that most people don’t care what others believe, they only care if it affects them. Christians are taught what they believe is the best and only path for everyone in the whole wide world. So, they really don’t care what other people think or believe. I don’t mean all Christians, I just mean the basics of Christianity. I know each church is different and I know many Christians who don’t try to convert others etc.

I remember an article I linked on a Q of mine about the preacher who used do the pray the gay away thing, one of the very prominent ones who was well known for it, now completely did a 180 saying how wrong he was. The author of the article talked about how Christians really went on the offensive the last 20 or 30 years against nonChristians and now are met with a backlash. From his view it was not the atheists who started it, or some other religion, but the Christians themselves who went on the war path. I inferred from the article that he believes the way for better acceptance and to calm things down is for Christians to cool it. His article not only talked about the preacher who had changed his mind, but also on the heals of the recent supreme court decision allowing gay marriage.

Religion is dying a slow torturous death. Most Europeans rarely discuss it. Even in the U.S. religion is declining. If you add in the fact that whites are on the verge of becoming a minority in the U.S., you can well understand that panic that white Christian conservatives are feeling. It will not do them any good. This is their last hurrah. Let them whoop it up while they can.

“So, you are saying that the Christians who were abused and became atheists, are more likely to be more vocal and less tolerant of Christians?”

Hmmm. Well since about the only atheists I know are here (I don’t have these sorts of conversations with my son-in-law), I guess that would be a bit of a stretch. I stand corrected. But I would guess that many of the most vocal atheists here have been wounded in some way by Christians. Whether it is real or perceived makes no difference in the long run.

We all know how hard it is to forgive once someone has been deeply hurt. It simply adds a layer of emotion to the whole thing, which makes it much more difficult to be objective, let alone being able to see things from the other guy’s point of view. And lots of people think that forgiveness is stupid, and not even an option. I’m not saying it’s necessary, but you have to start somewhere if you’re going to come to any sort of peaceful resolution. I don’t see a whole lot of peace going on in fluther, unless you count driving off the perceived enemy as peace.

@snowberry I was not trying to correct you, I was asking. You might be right. Many of the atheists I know were raised atheist, or raised in homes that weren’t very religious even if they believed in God, so there was no real adjustment.

@LostInParadise – Most Europeans rarely discuss religion, because they think it’s mostly a private matter. This is different from letting religion die. Personally I think the ratio of believers, agnostics and atheists hasn’t changed much the past 200 years. The only difference is that today far more of the agnostics and atheists are open about their view. I even think it’s similar in the Muslim world. And there most agnostics and atheists still remain in the closet for the fear of getting killed.

I actually think @LostInParadise is correct. The Bible said it would. :)

Most people I know are far from panic, though, this is what we’ve been waiting for! It’s EXCITING!!!

Are you expecting the Apocalypse to be happening some time soon? Do you think that trying to curb global warming is therefore a mistake? It does look like the best shot we have of bringing about world destruction.

Matt, I have not been paying attention to the statistics on Europe, though I have read comments from a number of Europeans that religious conversations are a non-starter. As for the U.S., which is the last bastion of theism among Western nations, I recall past surveys saying that 90% of Americans were religious. If you read the article, 12% are atheists and 12% are agnostics. Add in those who believe in God but follow no particular religion and you have a major decline in organized religion. All the major Protestant sects have been losing followers to Fundamentalism. The Catholic church is facing a crisis of major proportions and has been hemorrhaging followers worldwide at a significant rate. As to Muslims, Egypt, Turkey and Iran, arguably the politically most important counties in the Middle East, there have been dramatic indications of growing secularism. Both Egypt and Turkey have had massive protests against theocratic governments and Iran has just elected a religious moderate as president. God may not be dead yet, but he is definitely not doing very well.

Growing secularism in the Muslim world means religion becomes optional, not mandatory, something Christian nations went through hundreds of years ago.

I don’t think any Christians say “To heck with Global warming, Jesus is coming anyway. ”
I do think that many very fundamentalist Christians aka Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson, support Israel and ignore the plight of the Palestinians for the sole purpose of ushering in Armageddon and Jesus’ return.

Wow, lots of responses.

I’ll try to answer the original question. It isn’t the topic per se, but usually the people behind it.

An example: suppose my wife started talking to me about how crooked my daughter’s teeth are. I’d probably start a discussion with her about saving money for braces. Suppose I hear the bully at school saying how crooked my daughter’s teeth are. It would probably activate my fatherly, protective instincts. The difference is that I know that my wife loves my daughter as much as I do whereas the school bully cares about himself; he’s getting pleasure out of mocking others.

I often talk with other people about the topics you mention without feeling defensive; I usually avoid talking about them here.

@Judi Correct in my area. Isreal is to be supported at all costs.

@Judi , Check out this article

@KNOWITALL would you include yourself among those who see no particular reason to protect the environment, since the Apocalypse is coming soon?

@LostInParadise Nah, and I don’t know any that feel that way. My aunt and uncles taught me about caring for Mother Nature all my life, and I think it’s one of our greatest treasures to care for. Animals and nature is what kept me in Missouri all my life, I just love it here. And I do recycle, when I float I pick up trash, etc… My aunt is one of the people who protested McD’s to remove styrofoam containers on Big Mac’s/ burgers.

One of the reasons we chose not to have children was in fact due to the limited natural resources, and a population out of control.

While I look forward to the Second Coming & try to live a Christian lifestyle (secular Christian anyway), I’m not convinced it will happen during my lifetime, so I proceed as usual – lol

I’ll have to agree with your hypothesis. I feel that Christian beliefs are mocked regularly. People generally attack and mistrust things that they do not understand. I’ve had people try to use the Spanish Inquisition against me and I bring up the fact that Muslims kill more people in a single year than the the 350 years of the inquisition. You can go ahead and look that up if you like. I digress… People have choices and as long as they do they are free to make unfortunate ones. We are not drones, we were not made that way.

Christianity is under attack and I fear it’s getting worse. It’s perfectly acceptable in these times to mock and deny the existence of God. Sadly, I feel that a lot of these problems have arisen because we don’t generally band together and defend ourselves. But we know how this will all end.

@DWW25921 Just to add a little to your history about the Spanish Inquisition, people eitehr had to convert or leave the country, and some were killed. Effectively they killed off, well, greatly reduced the identification with and practice of other religions. Some Jews and Muslims practiced underground, many of whom did leave the country eventually. There may not have been as many death, but there was certain oppression, lack of acceptance, and people who did not confirm had to live in fear.

Recently, on the heels of Alan Chambers of Exodus church apologyzing to the gay community for preaching basically pray the gay away I read an article basically Christians need to stop being so offensive. The author cited that beginning in the 70’s Christians ramped this up and so they were pushed back. His recommendation was to be accepting of others and inclusive. Would you agree some Christians have actually helped to cause the negative talk about Christianity? The biggest problem I think is that Christians define religious freedom as being able to have Christianity in plain sight and screamed from the roof tops (I don’t mean all Christians want to practice their religion in this way, just saying enough are out there that it is impossible to miss). People of other faiths and atheists believe religious freedom means you have the right to practice your religion, be free of the government requiring a specific religion, and you respect that other people around are different religions.

@JLeslie Yes. I agree that the greatest hindrance to the cause of Christ is Christians. People are flawed. They always have been and always will be. This is a fact of life. Christianity has many groups that call themselves believers but they really aren’t. This is true in any group. Some will always be more liberal and others more orthodox. A certain level of discernment comes in to play here. Back to the Spanish… Would you rather be killed or kicked out? Even that act of restraint against societal norms was a great leap forward for the time. Historically, they treated Muslims far greater than we treated our own native peoples of North America.

@DWW25921 It sucks to have to choose, but they get credit for not just slaughtering everyone. Still, it is terrorizing. Imagine if you no longer were allowed to practice Christianity, and fears of persnal harm for yoursel and children if you are caught doing it. To the very religious it is like death.

I absolutely agree all religions have the orthodox and the liberal followers. In the US we are just over 70% Christian, so they are more noticeable, have more politcial power, and their schtick is to soread the word (like I said I in no way mean all, but lets say 25% of them live and breath their faith and it is obvious to everyone around them, that is still a lot of people, and those people are concentration in some communities so it feels even more so there.

@JLeslie Revelations tells us that all Christians will be persecuted and hunted down.

@KNOWITALL What’s your point? Are you trying to tell me that American Christians walking around feeling persecuted and hunted down because revelations said it is inevitable?

Maybe it is like a self fulfilling prophecy? That would go back to what I mentioned a few answers ago, that Christians have caused a greater divide than was there in the past in our country. I’ll tell you this.

I know many many American Christians who were just taken by total surprise by 9/11. I am not talking about shock, I am saying surprise anyone would come after us in that way. To me that is related to how the majority here feels immune to these sort of things. I didn’t have that luxury growing up or even now. It’s not that I am constantly looking over my shoulder or worrying, but I am not shocked when someone tries to kill someone in my group.

I would say maybe @DWW25921 doesn’t really understand that also, but I could be wrong. For a white American Christian to say they feel persecuted just doesn’t compute much for me. I don’t think Christians walk in their churches and think, if someone wanted to kill a bunch of Christians they could just blow this place up during services on Sunday. Or, hear about bombs being sent through the mail to churches. Or churches set on fire. Maybe it has happened, I’m sure it has, but the number would not compare to how many times it has happened to Jewish places of worship add in Muslim and also black churches. Most people are not lashing out at Christianity, they are lashing out at Chrisianity wanting to control everyone to follow what they decide is right. By this I mean influencing laws.

I’m not trying to compete, and I am sympathetic to Christians who feel the country is trying to secularize more and more. But, from where I sit, it feels like we are secularizing, because so many Christian communities around the country weren’t really complying with our laws for separation of church and state, so as of late more and more places are being forced to comply. From my point of view secular preserves our right to religious freedom.

@JLeslie There are no laws in this country separating church from state. That is not in the constitution nor is it in the bill of rights. The framers wanted to protect the church from the state. It was a popular idea that was never made law.

I never said I felt persecuted. The opinions of others don’t bother me. What bothers me is the insistence of folks to consistently blaspheme the name of God and yet contend they aren’t attacking Christianity. Look up the new show “GCB” and tell me that’s not a blatant mockery. If that was any other religion there would be riots!

@DWW25921 I already agree some people are horrible towards Christians, I don’t need an example, I have plenty I can tell you myself. I just googled GCB and I don’t see how that is attacking Christianity, but the blurb I read about it might not be enough for me to have an accurate feel for the show. If they had a show called JAP I wouldn’t feel like Judaism was under attack. The show would probably be idiotic, but I would not feel like people are going to hate me or threaten my life because of it.

@JLeslie “Good Christian Bitches” was the original title. They had to be sued to get it changed.

@DWW25921 I saw what it stands for. My point still is the same. Ok, if a show was called Jewish American Princesses I would not feel Judaism was under attack. Better?

@JLeslie I know you’re sympathetic to a degree, I’m just reminding you that we’re taught that at some point we will have to hide or die for Jesus. We have to proclaim ourselves and choose between Christian and Secular life.

As far as 911, I think Americans were shocked because of the magnitude of death and destruction. The World Trade Center bombing, 1993 & Oklahoma City, 1995 were our only experiences on our soil at that time (this can be argued back to native american indians but I’m not doing that.)

What is the difference between ignorant white rednecks mocking Muslims and antagonizing them and atheists mocking and antagonizing Christians? It’s all just unnecessary in a country who prides itself on religious freedom for all.

@DWW25921 And, about church and state. All over the country court cases and threats of court cases are causing local governments to stop doing a prayer before their meetings, and over time a lot has changed in schools that were still putting religion and prayer in the schools because it is basically undo influence on our children and exlcusionary.

@JLeslie Being called a princess is the same as being called a bitch? The show is degrading to women as it also depicts Christian women as being loose and stupid. I’m offended by it. As for the church and the state… What do you think religion is being replaced by? I’ve seen school children literally singing praises to “the great obama” which is not unlike how the Nazis indoctrinated their children just a few decades ago. They are filling the void with propaganda. This is real, it is happening. Now, which would you rather have?

@KNOWITALL The choice between being a Christian and secular is exactly the dilemma. I only really understood it in the last few years, and I see that it is impossible to solve. I am empathetic to the position Christians are in.

About 9/11, I heard a lot of people say they never though anything like that could ever happen on American soil. I also heard a lot of people say they couldn’t understand why we are hated.

I completely agree it is the same mocking is the same whether it is Muslims or Christians, etc. what exactly do you mean by mocking? Are you referring to that TV show?

@DWW25921 I saw that tape once of people singing to Obama and it gives me the eebie jeebies also. What does that have to do with Christianity? But, let’s not talk about the Nazi’s because I have bunches of examples where Bush could be compared also. I am not trying to say Bush was like Hitler, I am only saying I could pull out individual examples. Obama did not force those children to do anything. It is the responsibility of the teachers who had the children sing the song. I don’t remember if Obama was there in their presence and that is why they sang it? If so that would not be so bad, they performed for him. But, I just don’t remember if that is the case.

Yes bitch is the very similar to Princess. Do you even know what a JAP is?

@JLeslie Yeah, I’m interested in your convo with DW. Looks like you need to explain Jewish American Princess lol.

@DWW25921 Some Christian women are not moral. Understand that we do not all have the same morals just because we call ourselves Christians. :) I get your point though.

I guess the bottom line here is a lack of respect. I mean, it’s at the core of most personal issues. People you don’t respect get treated differently. It’s an unfortunate byproduct of being human.

@JLeslie I’m a staunch independent so to be fair I have no problems with you bashing Bush too. Both parties are useless and owned by the same corporations anyway. :) I know what JAP means but it’s not that widely used and I don’t think most people would get it. So, I concede that it’s the same thing. Although I think most people confuse it for slang for Japanese. I still say it’s not as bad because of that confusion. Plus, there isn’t a bad word in JAP…

Back to the bottom line that I spoke of. I think respect is chronically underrated in this country. If we respect each other than it’s easier to accept others. Core beliefs like this usually begin at the front door and fan out. I fear there isn’t enough of a focus on this. Families are being torn apart left and right. Kids grow up hating one parent and loving the other. People don’t try to work things out anymore. It’s disheartening to me.

@JLeslie I missed a comment… “I saw that tape once of people singing to Obama and it gives me the eebie jeebies also. What does that have to do with Christianity?”

It doesn’t. To put it simply, I’m saying that this propaganda is filling the void that Christianity has left behind.

@DWW25921 You obviously have zero idea about what JAP means. Jews are made fun of being JAP’s all over the place in shows and movies and if you lived in a place with a lot of Jews (I’ll go out on a limb and assume you don’t) you never would have thought I meant Japanese.

Do you know the joke, “what does a Jewish wife make for dinner?” Punchline: reservations. That is just a mini bit of what a JAP is. Snobby, spoiled, unwilling to get her hands dirty, everything on her has to be a name brand. Then there are tons and tons of shows and characters where Jews are made fun of. Seinfeild, the whole parents in Boca Delray. The Nanny with the mother who eats constantly and they mention Boca also and hit other Jewish stereotypes. The movie Private Benjamin, she was a total JAP and the irony was that she joined the army and had to do something for herself for the first time.

Princess means brat, even if you have never heard JAP you must have heard peoplebeing called a princess when they are all too worried about breaking a nail and think many things and people are beneath them.

@DWW25921 There was a ton of Christianity in Germany during the time of Hitler. What you wrote makes no sense, and sounds like right wing email spam.

@JLeslie I guess it’s worse than I thought! I live in West Virginia. Anyway, what part of what I said didn’t make any sense? I mean, I read over it again?

@JLeslie Regardless of what side issue you don’t get or what phrase I didn’t get the impact of… It seems we agree on your main topic and point.

“does it feel like your religion is being attacked even if no one specifically brings up Christianity or Christians?” Yes

I guess we’re done here. Have a great day.

@DWW25921 Ok, I appreciate your yes answer to the main qiestion. I do find all the answers from all the jellies on this Q very informative.

I’m not sure what is worse than you thought?

What diesn’t make sense is Hitler actually used religion partly to control the masses. He knew it spoke to many of his followers. We see this in America now. Then we can look at communism, a separate issue, but related to the conversation, and argue that communist leaders replace themselves in place of God to be worshipped by the people and it is used to control people. So, my conclusion is propoganda can flourish in many environments and it is not related to Chritianity. From where I sit more religious right wing people are likely to follow the political leader blindly (again I do not mean most or all, but a solid significant number) they have decided is wonderful than we see on the left. But, it certainly happens on the left too.

@JLeslie I could easily say the same of people who voted for Obama. I think many of them were so enamored with him simply because of his race, rhetoric and unusual life that they just forgot to think. Now that he’s in, folks are falling more and more out of love with the guy because they are starting to see what living is going to be like once all his policies fall into place.

@snowberry I agree with you. But, at least they get a little credit for falling out of love. There are still people who are die hard; Obama can do no wrong. They drive me crazy. Most of the Christians I know are willing to disagree with a Republican politician, even if they generally think he is wonderful. But, I wonder the more someone is unlikely to question their religion or what is told to them by their religious leaders, if they also are unlikely to question in general. That it is a personality trait? So, I am not talking about how religious they are, I know many many people who I consider to be very reigious, but they are not blind followers.

I don’t know if I am making any sense.

I voted for Ron Paul, if that makes any difference. It’s against the law for a pastor to tell his congregation how to vote, but they will often explain why abortion is wrong, and encourage people to research who is for it and who is against it.

There are so many issues on the table (homelessness, job growth, international trade, drug abuse, etc. and abortion is only one topic among many). So for some Christians it comes down to who do I vote for? They might have to choose between a guy who’s for abortion, but will help them keep their job, or someone whose got a weaker policy against drugs but maybe is against abortion. It’s never cut and dried.

@snowberry Democrats have to make the same types of choices. People here on fluther for the most part don’t count. Almost everyone here enjoys debate, wants to take in as much information as they can, and cares about the truth.

@snowberry Since my family is very involved in Right To Life, I can assure you that groups like that do use their ‘clout’ with the religious during political runs. Which is why we have many candidates, like Romney, changing their position later when it’s time to run for office. That alone shows you the power of religious groups in politics.

One thing I have learned here, is that people who don’t believe as we do, find that kind of politicking (lol) wrong on many levels. If you know nothing about politics beyond what you’re fed from your pastor, then this may be the only issue you care about when making your vote/ decision. It’s scary to me, too, because as you said, there are many more issues to consider.