On Fluther, is being accused of "ranting" sort of like being accused of being a "racist"?

No, it’s not the same at all. When ranting you are not necessarily being offensive to a group. On your Obama Q, to me, you just sounded not serious to begin with. I think you know no one is going to say it should be illegal to make fun of him, not even the superliberals who think he walks on water.

Easily dismissed you mean? Conveniently placed in a box & forever tarnished with a critical brush?
Possibly, in the minds of some I don’t know, or care much either.
We’ve had maybe two mild debates on here, but that means fuck all to me, immediately wipes the slate clean, you’re only as good as your next question, sorta.

@ucme
Whether you believe it or not, I respect that. On that basis, I would like to say out loud that if I disagreed with you in a disagreeable fashion, I should not have done that, and I apologize. That is the truth.

@JLeslie

The point is, was I ranting?
Most people, like you, will recognize that I was not.
But I have observed that, when people are accused of ranting, the only thing they are guilty of is not toeing the Fluther line. . When you are accused of ranting, it means you have sort of crossed the limit of acceptance. Sort of like eating with your elbows on the table when you are dining with the Queen.

And I have also noticed, and I could be wrong, and I will not attempt to provide “data” that the people who are accused of ranting are the ones who are not politically popular on this site.

Not that any of that matters to me, but I think Fluther is an interesting “study”.
I think that being accused of ranting is merely a way of trying to put you on the defensive.
Can’t prove it, like I said, but I think I am right.

@josie Not at all, if I recall correctly, on both occasions it was just two guys knocking heads.
No animals or children were harmed during filming, which was nice.

@ucme

OK…

@josie I think you often write Q’s to try to turn a mirror on liberals hoping they see their ridiculousness. Or, what you deem as ridiculous anyway.

Why worry about being labeled as anything?

You know your audience . . .

Saying anything that even hints at a dislike of Obama will get you pinned as a ranting racist on fluther…..he shits rainbows around here.

Accusing someone of ranting is one of the many ways jellies seek to “win” an argument, shut you up, and/or make you feel stupid. Other ways include telling someone they’re getting “all worked up” over nothing, things like “HA!” or “lol” used to let you know that you’re amusing them with your ignorance, or certain condescending phrases like, “when you reach 30/40/50, you’ll feel differently.” Anything to feel superior and make you feel inferior.

^ Now that’s a rant! :)

@cheebdragon
Which is sort of my point…

lol = i couldn’t come up with anything better than this

I don’t think so, no. One could rant about anything, and all it means (Fluther-wise) is that the ranter isn’t interested in a real discussion…that they’re just making some kind of point in the guise of a question. That said, I haven’t seen the question you’re talking about, so I can’t make a judgment on whether or not you were ranting.

Just an FYI: We often remove questions that seem more like a rant than an actual question, and many of them are on the liberal side of the equation. That kind of thing is just better suited to a Facebook post than to a discussion on Fluther.

Also, since this is about Fluther, I’m moving this question to the Meta section.

@josie I thought you said Ramps : )

Not really, but I get your point.

@cheebdragon Yes, it’s infuriating, isn’t it? “I don’t like Obama.” “You’re a fucking racist!” “Actually no, the racists are the ones who voted for him simply because of the color of his skin.” “OMG, that’s even MORE of a racist thing to say, you refuglikkkan!”

If someone dislikes Michael Jackson are they racist also? What about OJ Simpson? Kanye West? Is it okay to hate puff daddy or am I racist for thinking he is annoying?

Wait… Michael Jackson was black?

Clearly @josie You have no idea what racism is in the first place.

And to answer the OP. Not even close.

I think it is more of if you have a agenda. To be honest, Josie you don’t really do anything here but ask loaded questions. Same for H_C. It feels like you are here to push an agenda or piss people off and it irritates the fuck out of me.

I could accept it if you helped on any actual real questions with answers. But you don’t and the site would be better if you didn’t promote fights.

What agenda would that be exactly?

@cheebdragon He shits rainbows? Bahahahaha!!!!!! That was hilarious! :0)

I’m not a fan of Obama. I did not vote for him either time. It has nothing to do with the color of his skin. It has everything to do with the fact that he’s a scary man.

Racism and misogyny for starters.

To me, “ranting” means that the question is not really there to inspire discussion. In other words, you’re not interested in hearing any different opinions or starting discussion, you just want to shout your opinion to other people and immediately shoot down anyone who disagrees. A rant disguised as a question. I do see that often on Q&A sites and Fluther is no exception.

Your question didn’t really seem that way since you didn’t seem to be shooting down any contrary responses, but I also considered your question a joke and posted a joke response accordingly.

If I had asked “Should we just extend abortion limits to three years?”, what would you all call that? Ranting? Trolling? I’m attempting to make a mockery of the pro-choice side by presenting an opinion that no serious pro-choicer would ever agree to. I certainly think it deserves some kind of negative label…

How is it racist to dislike one person? Do you like everyone you meet, every politician making choices that affect your life, every celebrity you see on tv? No, you don’t. How much did you love George Bush? Not at all? Then you are racist!......do you understand how illogical it sounds to label someone a racist for disliking just one person?

BTW…how did Josie end up with 20,000+ lurve if he is so unhelpful?

I am assuming that my rant comment inspired this question.

Wow, @josie – what’s going on? I’m not sure what’s happening, but you need to take a few long breaths.

“Rant” is not a necessarily a bad thing (racist?? huh?). I rant all the time. Some of my favorite comments here are rants. I’m not following anything you’re saying now, except you seem to feel that white Republicans are in grave danger, and you’re fighting the good fight to keep that from happening.

Listen – nobody is out to get you. Relax. If you’re interested in making a case for something, do it. Don’t be cute and ask questions that aren’t questions. Don’t insult our intelligence. Just make a case with facts and we can deal with the things on the table. The question that inspired the rant comment was shit.

@josie: “Isn’t it about time that somebody passed a law making it illegal to make fun of President Obama?”

What the hell does this mean? And how is it related to the details in your question? You aren’t really asking if it’s about time to make it illegal to make fun of Obama. You aren’t. You’re making a statement that you feel that we’re approaching some kind of fascist state where making fun of a president will be illegal. That’s fine. Make that case. You didn’t. Period. And related to that – don’t be hurt when the non-question is called a rant. @ETpro posts a ton of annoying “questions” that are not questions at all. They are rants, and he is making a case for something. The details of the “question” are full of details and links to support his claims. He also then follows up and takes part in the discussion. Making a claim in the form of a question and then not supporting it at all is cute, but annoying as shit.

I don’t think so. Ranting can be about anything and does not include or exclude any ism. It’s about a manner of speaking: long and loud with not much control.

“Maybe accusing jellies of ranting is sort of like accusing them of being racist. A quick and easy way to encourage them to shut the fuck up.”

This, I think, is the most revealing part of the question. Like many people of a rightward bent, @josie, you don’t seem to understand racism as anything more than a rhetorical device. Calling someone a racist is not a way of encouraging someone to shut up. It is an invitation to consider one’s underlying attitudes and recognize what is problematic about them. It is a way of making an argument against a particular conclusion by pointing towards presuppositional failure. To call someone out for racism is to give that person the benefit of the doubt that they understand racism to be wrong, and then to give them the opportunity to see if they can reformulate their argument without using obviously flawed premises.

Perhaps you already know all this and are just engaging yet again in your favored technique of using straw men as a diversionary tactic. If you can only see the issue in rhetorical terms, however, then you really are racist—regardless of how many non-white friends you might have. The issue is not always overtly antagonistic behavior, after all. Plenty of straight, married men are sexist. Racism is a real issue, and one that requires discussion—often uncomfortable discussion, as even those of us who lack overtly racist tendencies may have been subtly infected by the latent racism surrounding us. And it is for that reason that being unable to see accusations of racism as anything but a rhetorical device is itself racist. No doubt there are instances when such accusations are just rhetorical cheats. But dismissing them all as such is both presumptuous and mistaken.

@SavoirFaire
Does that mean I am a racist, but I don’t know it?

It depends what you rant about.

Subconscious racism….. it’s almost as serious as dreaming.

@josie I have no idea if and to what degree you may be subconsciously racist because I have no idea to what extent you might honestly believe that accusations of racism are merely rhetorical devices. The fact of the matter is, none of us know who the people behind the avatars really are (with perhaps a few exceptions). For all I know, you are a rabid socialist carrying out a false flag operation here on Fluther. For all you know, I’m the head of the Westboro Baptist Church. Both are unlikely, of course, but the fact remains that we cannot be certain. As such, all we can do is deal with the arguments that are presented.

In any case, it is certainly possible that you are subconsciously racist. There has been quite a bit of research done on implicit bias, summed up quite well in Timothy Wilson’s excellent book Strangers to Ourselves. Indeed, one of the things that studies into subconscious attitudes has revealed is that implicit bias exists even in many who have actively attempted to overcome their own prejudicial tendencies. It is important to remember, however, that there are different kinds and degrees of prejudice. Thus when someone calls something racist, they are not necessarily saying that it is the act of a deeply bigoted person.

Consider a person who locks their doors whenever driving through a black neighborhood, but never does so when driving through a white neighborhood. If this habit has no correlation to any non-prejudicial reason for the action (e.g., if the actual amount of crime that occurs in these neighborhoods is equivalent, or if some of the white neighborhoods are more dangerous than any of the black neighborhoods), then it very well might reveal latent racism in a person who acts this way. But one can call the action racist without saying that the person themselves is a racist in any overt or conscious way. Not all racist behaviors make one the moral equivalent of a Klan member, even if they are all worth investigating and correcting.

@cheebdragon Subconscious prejudice—or implicit bias, as it is often called in the scientific literature—is unfortunately much more serious than dreaming. It has proven effects on people’s behavior, even people who sincerely believe they are free of such tendencies. Implicit gender bias has been demonstrated to exist in classrooms, for instance, even after a teacher has undergone training meant to combat privileging members of one sex over the other. And as both men and women are the targets of this sort of implicit bias in different circumstances, we all have reason to be concerned. (I rather think we would all have reason to be concerned anyway, but I recognize that some people only care when something is likely to affect them personally.)

ahhh, something else we need to fear . . .

Not fear so much as recognize. We all have flaws, but the fearful are those who refuse to acknowledge them.

Or tend to point them out in others?

There are many possible motivations for pointing out the flaws that other people have. Some people surely do it to distract from their own failings, but others do it to be helpful. A good friend tells you when you’re in the right. A great friend tells you when you’re in the wrong.

Said the douchey friend that always points out your flaws.

Said the guy who can’t take criticism.

See? Anyone can do that trick. It doesn’t take much. But it also doesn’t prove anything. In any case, I don’t see what’s wrong with being helpful. It’s not like I’m talking about people who just go around saying, “Hey Jim! You’re racist. And Susan? You’re a bitch!” That’s not helpful, and it’s not even pointing out someone’s flaws. It’s just name-calling. So if that’s the kind of thing you’re thinking about, then it would seem you have misunderstood what I was getting at.

I do have a friend who has taken the time to tell me when he thought I was in the wrong, and I don’t think he’s a “douche” for having done so. He’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever met, and he remains to this day one of my best friends. It’s quite possible to say “hey, you were a bit of a jerk back there” while being polite, after all, even if not everyone is able to recognize constructive criticism for what it is. In any case, if my choice is between defending racism and being open to criticism, I’ll go with the latter.

This fella can take criticism all day long. I am wrong thirty or forty times a day, I am abrasive, and I never know when to be serious. What’s your point in 20 words or less?

I know you can take criticism, @Blondesjon. That was the purpose of the first line of my response: it’s just a rhetorical trick that doesn’t prove anything. But that’s just as true when you say it as when I say it. I was demonstrating that your earlier response was meaningless.

As for my point in 20 words or less, here you go: telling someone they’ve made a mistake is not the same as being a douche.

Second point, also in 20 words or less: the position you’ve chosen to take puts you on the side of racists, and I don’t want to be there.

I’m going to need something better than that for you to convince me that I’m racist.

I’m not saying that you can’t. You’re very well spoken. I’m just saying that I find it very hard to believe. Try using your words again.

But again, I’m not saying that you’re racist. In fact, I doubt you are. What I said was that I don’t want to be on the side of racists, which is where we wind up if we try to say that we shouldn’t point out racism in others or criticize those who do for being “douchey.” The only reason that might not have come across in the last post is because you demanded I use 20 words or less. Yet such demands make no sense when discussing complicated topics like this. The sound bite approach is how the punditry hacks on television talk. It’s not how real conversations are had—at least not if people want to make any progress.

Progress towards what? It seems to me that you are more interested in being right than in being right.

This, of course, is my own opinion and, as I stated above, I have been wrong before.

Progress towards truth, mutual understanding, and/or agreement. It depends on what the goals of a particular conversation are. My goal relative to @josie in this conversation was to explain why I believe that calling something racist isn’t necessarily an attempt to shut someone up. My goal relative to you has been to explain why I don’t believe we should be afraid of the issue of implicit bias, including our own implicit biases.

As for being right versus being right, I don’t know what can be done over the internet to prove one way or the other which one I’m interested in. You don’t know me, and I don’t know you. It’s virtually impossible to get an accurate picture of another person on a discussion forum, especially if you only encounter them in the context of certain kinds of discussion. Take any two jellies who have argued on this site and they might get along famously if they met in a bar one night no matter how much they disagreed on the hot topic of the day. In both cases, we are operating on only a partial understanding of the whole person.

All I can tell you, then, is that I believe rational discussion can be a very worthwhile tool for getting closer to the truth. And since truth is one part of wisdom (you can’t be wise with all false beliefs) and wisdom is one part of being a good person (all the good intentions in the world are useless if you only act foolishly), getting closer to the truth is instrumental for self-improvement. In a rational discussion, though, each person defends their view as best they can until they are convinced they are mistaken. That’s why I push back when someone raises an objection to something I’ve said. I want to see if they can show me I’m wrong—because that’s something I am definitely interested in.

It’s not like I haven’t had to admit I’m wrong before (both in life and on this site). Hell, virtually none of my beliefs are the same as they were 15 years ago. My religious beliefs have changed completely. My moral beliefs as well. I can’t even imagine where I might be 15 years from now. If I take an argument seriously, it is because I want to see where it leads. And if it seems like I’m taking it too seriously, I suppose that’s just an occupational hazard of doing this kind of thing for a living.

So then what were we arguing about?

Who is on the racist side? Are you really qualified to make that decision based on questions & answers given on Fluther? Seems a little judgmental to label someone you dont know as being racist, Do you really think that is going to help end racism…even on a subconscious level?
@Josie do you feel enlightened and more aware? How about @Blondesjon is your subconscious now conscious of your unconscious racism?
What a great party trick, knowing everyone better than they know themselves…you should take that show on the road, join the circus or fair, you could make a lot of money with that talent.

So then I can’t celebrate Kwanza?