Why do many religious theists place such a high emphasis on attempting to prove the validity of their religion's authority?

I’m thinking it has to do with the gene that makes us believe that one sports team is the best even at the expense of other sports teams.

go packers

~Boredom and loneliness . No, but some religions have the mandate to recruit new members, empty pews means less cash for the church. Those churches need to be maintained or else they become a fire hazard. Singing sounds better in when you have more than two people. I have been inside a church on Sunday mass that only had 3 members + the Baptist minister he asked that something nasty would happen so that people would have to go to church again to be healed of excess cash, (the excess cash was my paraphrasing what he really wanted, that and a new décor for the group kitchen as well as a new roof and $60 for two sponsored children overseas.)

I know it may seem funny considering my previous question but I don’t really feel like getting into another religious conversation today, so I will say this and leave.

In Christianity we are taught that narrow is the path to the kingdom of heaven, and all other religions are false. So if you take the money, politics, and everything out of it, which I know realistically you can’t, but if you do, then trying to make others realize their religion is wrong and ours is right is essentially trying to keep them from burning forever in a lake of fire.

We aren’t called to persecute other religions, or groups, although it happens, but we are called to save as many souls as possible from that fate.

I’m done talking, I’m not going to be pulled into an argument to defend others of my religion who fit your bill when i don’t personally, but I did want to point out that however it appears on the surface the intention behind the arguments are possibly noble. What’s more righteous than trying to save someone from such a terrible fate?

Because it enables them to write long and winding sentences without end and with lots of abstract ontological words that make the interlocutor’s brain ache and which that makes one wish for the reincarnation of James Joyce who at least was able to make tri-lingual puns when he was ridiculing the church when he had the time because he was too busy boinking Nora Barnacle yes I will Yes.

I have to agree with @bunnyslippers. It’s all about hell.

Almost every [Abrahamic] theist I have ever met has ultimately boiled down their arguments to Pascal’s wager. Even if they can’t prove that God exists, it’s more wise to live their lives as if the God that promises eternal punishment for not believing exists. Same goes for spreading your religion to others; you need other people to believe in your religion and realize that their own is false because yours says they will burn in hell for all eternity if they don’t follow it. When you have those kind of stakes, what’s stopping you from trying to convert as many people as possible?

Of course it’s very difficult to take money and politics out of it. Coming into a foreign land, enslaving the people, stealing their resources and claiming it’s done in the name of “saving them” is a load of crap. But ultimately, proving other religions wrong is supposed to be for their benefit.

If you truly believed that everyone who ate a Twinkie would spontaneously explode, wouldn’t you try to stop people from eating them? If you truly believed that eating Ho-Hos instead of Twinkies would not only save their lives, but also make them gloriously happy, wouldn’t you try to get everyone to make the switch?

That’s it, in a nutshell.

I view believers as hosts of the religious beliefs and its associated ideas and attitudes—which exploit their cognitive vulnerabilities and tendencies for the promotion of the religion they believe in.

The general level of zealotry, dogmatism and devotion in the adherents of a religion probably helps that religion thrive and out-compete other religions. The religions which inculcate these attitudes and ideas the strongest, are probably going to be the most successful religions.

Yes, it’s like evolution…

Because most religions are mutually exclusive and involve a supernatural power structure, along with @bunnyslippers’ post.

I’d guess that when you decide to forego earthly pleasures and invest all your hope in an unseen place you are told will be perfection for eternity, even though there isn’t a shred of hard evidence such a place exists or that you will go there upon death, then you feel a need to believe. In the Abrahamic religions, you are asked to believe strictly on faith and that alone is the single most important qualification for achieving paradise. You are worshiping a thought police deity who will condemn you to eternal suffering for doubt or questioning.

@Kropotkin If you are right, then Islam will soon rule on Earth and do so just as the Taliban would dictate, murdering all who they even think are wavering from their ingroup beliefs.

I believe there are quite a number of people, even confirmed atheists, who in their heart of hearts wonder at times.

I am a Christian. I do not see it as my responsibility to convince anyone of the truth. That’s the job of the Holy Spirit. If someone does not want to believe what I, or any Christian has to say, they certainly will not, and no amount of blather will change that.

It is my responsibility to be as honest and authentic as I possibly can be, and to pray for people, which I do, and it is why I am here. Some people will appreciate that, and others will hate me for it.

Are there secular or non-religious theists?

@ETpro I think that’s less likely in our modern context. with the information age and a rapidly changing social and cultural environment… but who knows?

@snowberry There are virtually no atheists who embrace disbelief as a belief system. I’m a member of a group here in the Boston area with over 1,000 members, and I know of none who claim that they know there is no god. They wonder in their hearts at all times. They just do not choose to believe in something without evidence for its truth.

@Paradox25 What I was trying but failing to say succinctly in my first answer is that in the absence of evidence, or the ability to see and hear their leader, the inerrancy of the scriptures they base their belief on are all they have. They want the promised reward and fear the threatened punishment, so the scripture must be authoritative. It’s immaterial how many contradictions, paradoxes and absurdities it contains, it has to be accepted. Otherwise the whole enterprise collapses under the weight of its preposterous claims.

You can only see something when you are no longer blind.

The reason these people do this is because they have doubts about it themselves. The only way they know to squash these doubts is to justify their beliefs to other people. They aren’t really trying to justify it to anyone but themselves. That is why they get so butt hurt when you reject their beliefs.

Actually, it’s the flaming that gets to us after a while. We’ve had this discussion before.

@snowberry Nobody likes getting flamed. Right here on Fluther, I’ve been called blind, unable to read, pig headed, dumb, stupid, arrogant, intolerant… And the very people that call me this do so because I respectfully disagree with them. I may call a claim they advance bogus, but I don’t attack their sanity, intelligence or character. I am sick and tired of listening to theists constantly advance their cause, but being told by them that I am way out of line to think or say anything that differs. They think they have the perfect right to state their beliefs on any and every thread. Well fair enough, but then so do I.

Have a look at this. It’s what I face, and others like me face, because we don’t accept every idea the “American Taliban”;http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/culture_war/the_american_taliban.html supports. And from their rantings, it is clear they plan to kill all who do not see things exactly their way. In that, they are no different than the Afghan Taliban.

Can you seriously read hate and desires to murder all who disagree, and claim that I am an ogre for opposing such insanity, and they are God’s messengers?

@ETpro Yeah, they sound creepy to me too. I am not like that, and I do not associate with people like that. If they are Christian (just because they SAY they are, doesn’t mean they are you know), they are haters at heart. They make life harder for those Christians who are genuine.

I would say that these people, although very vocal and loud, do not represent the majority of Christians. They are very much a fringe group, but unfortunately they get the press, and public (and governmental) opinion is negatively swayed by this behavior.

@snowberry I know you are nothing like those voices quoted on the link above. Sorry for the typo, but the URL works. The problem is they are the fastest growing sector of American Religion, and if they aren’t opposed—well, as Edmund Burke said, “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing.”

Yes, I got the URL to work. I suspect some of these people’s comments have been taken out of context (and as I read the very limited statements I find there, they seem pretty mild). Others are flat out nuts. Many of them I’ve never heard of.

@snowberry I know them all. And they have large constituencies.

@ETpro You can’t say you know them all. You only know of them. Splitting hairs maybe, but there is a difference. This website of yours is clearly atheist, and nothing I say is going to persuade you that not all of those people are anything but pure evil, just as there are people here who would say the same of me- or better yet, that I’m naïve- (had to get that in there! Ha!). Anyway, I’m OK with that.

Outside of Fluther I have friends who are Muslims (even the ones from Yemen whose women wear the black veils), homosexuals, atheists, etc. They all know where I stand on different issues, yet they know I love them, and we actually get along. The funny thing is they even respect me! Not so much here though. I guess it’s the fact that you can’t actually relate to the written word like you can to someone sitting in your living room. That does make a difference.

When it comes to people trying to emphasize their religion is the rgith one, let’s not use “Abrahamic religions” as an example since Jews for the most part do not do this, are not supposed to do it, and feel no need to convince anyone of any such thing. Sure if you ask a Jewish person about their religion they will tell you about. They might even answer some questions with, “in my religion…” even when it is not directly a religious question, but maybe their religion is what guides them on a matter. However, they are explaining why they believe it, it isn’t worded or meant in a way that the other person should be believing or converting to Judaism.

I will agree that Christians are supposed to believe they have the correct and only way to God’s kingdom after death and this drives them to want to spread the word. In fact it is basically an obligation they do it. Maybe Muslims the same thing, I actually don’t know what they are expected to do in that regard, but I know I have never had a Muslim friend do anything of the sort. It might be very different in countries that have very large Muslim populations I have no idea. From what I understand many eastern religions believe there are many paths to goodness, and beliefs in the afterlife might be quite different so I guess they are less compelled to feel their way is the only way.

Going back to the Jews, our numbers are very very small, so there is an argument for getting the word out so the religion doesn’t dissappear. We had other things working against of course, ⅓ of our population being killed off by the Nazi’s, forced to cnvert back in history, low birth rate among us the last 100 years, and more reasons. Just imagine if the Jews had been telling everyone they saw about their Jewish life and why it is so great to be Jewish. Probably we would be a much bigger population.

In areas of the US that are heavily populated by Christians (not including the Catholics for this generalization, but of course Catholics are Christian) basically the bible belt, and some other communities dotted around the country, it is habit and normal to thank God constantly, religious words are strewn through their sentences all the time. Phrases like “it’s a blessing,” and” “that was God,” and, “I’ll pray for you,” etc. Generally, we become our community and so that all is normal in very Christian parts of the country that don’t have a lot of religious diversity and to the person who is not very religious or who is an atheists all that religious talk can be annoying.

Not all Christians are like that, in fact the majority of my Christian friends are not like that, but there are so many Christians in America that even if it is a minority of Christians who do it, it feels like a lot.

@snowberry I seem to remember you are from Utah and I think you are not Mormon. If I am right, and correct me if I am wrong, do you think being a minority in your state makes you less likely to even think about trying to talk about your religion or constantly be “witnessing” to try to show people the way?

@ETpro I think the most annoying thing about these questions is they are pointed at a group in the askers mind. It is the same as asking:

Do all atheists hate religion?
Are all blonds selfish?
Do all men know the answer to life’s mysteries?

Or

Are all atheists satanic?
Are all atheists evil?

Now in my life I have met many atheists, so I know they are not all evil, nor do they follow satan. They are very individual to themselves, although they have the exact same title, that of atheist.

If a person is angry toward a certain belief no doubt they have had a bad experience of it. Which could have been person delivered. The anger should be directed at that.

Religion should be a personal thing. For most it is. Most do not care to hear the comments of a person who does not believe the same thing. Yet are subjected to them. On the other hand religious people who tell others they are doomed to hell and damnation in my opinion could be suffering from a mental disease. As religiosity is a symptom of that. Both the angry person and the overly righteous person can cause havoc.

Having to defend ones belief systems to a bunch of strangers is strange in my opinion. Before anyone asks, no, I do not agree with using the bible to run schools, governments or any thing of the sort. I find it strange that America apparently does this. Belief should be a choice. However most beliefs are taken from scripture for both atheist and theists. For internal moral structures.

Experiencing God is what is important, and those that do not seek him shall not, hence shall be blind. Those that turn away cannot see.

We seem born with an innate sense of fairness. When witnessing how suffering arises from the hands of those who materially prosper through exploitation, the desire for retribution, which does not seem to exist in the world of the living, creates the hope that justice might be present in an afterlife in which an authority exists that can establish equity. When observing the strife on Earth, one might wish for a reality where no conflict exists. In such a place all opinions would be compatible.

Despite how altruistic the origination of theistic beliefs, they too become exploited by those who institutionalize them and derive wealth and power through their establishment. Invariably disparities arise and, seeking a better means of equity, some seek alternatives that are incompatible with existing authority. Those in power will use whatever means available to remove their competition either by conversion or death.

@LornaLove I love how you go from stating generalizing about a group isn’t a good thing to stating that people who talk the talk of damnation could easily be mentally ill. LOL. I just got a chuckle out of it. I am oversimplifying what you said of course. I don’t think anyone thinks all religious people are always outspoken about their religion. You say religion is. Personal thing. Most Christians aren’t taught that. They are taught to spread the word to the world.

“I seem to remember you are from Utah and I think you are not Mormon. If I am right, and correct me if I am wrong, do you think being a minority in your state makes you less likely to even think about trying to talk about your religion or constantly be “witnessing” to try to show people the way?”

@JLeslie Absolutely. I grew up being persecuted because I was NOT Mormon. When I was a child, the first thing other children would say to me is “What ward do you go to?” (A ward is the Mormon place of worship).

If I did not answer correctly, that kid would say, “I can’t play with you” and that was that. I had many experiences like that through the years. The neighborhoods where we lived were almost 100% Mormon, and for many years I had NO friends. I understand where the parents were coming from, and I don’t really blame them, but their concern and tactics were born out of fear as well as small minded ness.

But I’ve also done it myself (to a much smaller degree and not for the same reasons). We moved back to Park City, Utah when my kids were young. We were homeschooling our children then. My 11 year old daughter made instant friends with a girl of the same age who lived up the street. The girl was so….friendly, she sang the cutest little songs she said she made up on the spot. She was always so polite, wore the cutest clothes, you get the picture. But there was something not quite right and I couldn’t put my finger on it.

One day they invited my daughter to a movie. Her mom was driving, and we approved of the movie. Later I learned that this movie was actually a “double date” that the mom had set up with her daughter and two boys. I was not pleased, at all. I spoke to the mom, the girls, and got promises that it wouldn’t happen again. A few weeks later this girl asked my daughter to help her pick out a prom dress. This kid was going to a prom, at 11 years old!?! I said that would NOT happen, ever.

By this time I began to notice that the neighbor girl seemed to be quite secretive, and I began to see more and more red flags, but then the mother got in a serious car accident, and I knew she needed help with her daughter. I invited the girl to go to the local swim club with us. When we got home, my daughter told me that her friend had taken a pair of hiking boots that she said were hers, but she did not wear them into the club. I immediately called the club, and the manager said that a pair of hiking boots were indeed taken from the women’s locker room. When I called up the mom, she accused me of the most horrible things. She totally supported her daughter and denied that she ever lied or did anything wrong. I was the one who was wrong, and I was keeping my kids isolated from reality, etc., etc.

In the meantime, someone’s vacation was ruined because her hiking boots were gone, and she didn’t have the money to replace them. I felt horrible because I didn’t have the money to replace them either.

After that, my daughter told me many other unsavory things about this girl, and I saw to it that their friendship ended that day (boy was I unpopular!). After that, things disappeared from the yard, our house was egged, and so on. We moved shortly after, and were glad we did.

@snowberry Funny, one thing I liked about Romney was he was a religious minority. I do think the bible belt has the “problem” of being the majority religion not only where they lived, but also in the country.

Was the little girl Mormon in your story? The Mormons I know are some of the nicest people I have met, but we lived in extremely diverse parts of the country, or where they were a small minority so the experience is very different. I can understand why they are clannish, especially with their children. Most religious people are to some extent.

@gailcalled

You asked an interesting question, namely “Are there secular or non-religious theists?”

I don’t know whether, by that structure, you are equating the terms “secular” and “non-religious” but I’ll speak to the non-religious part of the question.

Yes. there are plenty of non-religious theists since the word theist simply means believing in the existence of God, period.

I would consider that to be a pretty accurate description of me since there is no system of religion which I feel duty bound to convince anybody else of.

That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in the existence of God, obviously. But I just feel that God is so much larger and all-encompassing than any of the boxes (religions) into which various groups attempt to cram him.

But in order to be clear, it is helpful to draw a distinction between religion and spirituality. They are not synonymous even tho many people who have chosen an agnostic/atheistic mindset have a tendency to lump all spiritual belief under the general umbrella term of “religion”.

To me personally, I regard religion as a codified set of beliefs accompanied by formal organization into a recognized group.various rituals, officially recognized statement of faith, system of governance etc. etc.

Spirituality requires none of that since it is more concerned with inner belief and relationship with God and that can vary significantly from one person to the next.

And for me, its also accompanied by the absence of the whole “hell-insurance-policy” coerciveness since that’s a mechanism of control which should have vanished along with the Dark Ages. I’ve stated before that I do not believe that a loving God would create a place of unending torture into which the vast majority of mankind would reside forever simply for not believing (or even knowing about) the “correct” religion. That’s simply absurd.

But I’m certainly not the only person who feels this way. There are plenty others.

This (link) is but one example of trying to clarify the distinction between spirituality and religion. There are plenty of other examples.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mistic/mistic_10.htm

(I have no idea what else that group believes or disbelieves on a wide variety of things. I just found the thoughts expressed on this one page to be a good example of what I’m getting at.)

To me its an important distinction. To others it may not be.

@JLeslie I don’t think this family was religious in any way, unless you count self worship. d*.*b

Most Mormons are very nice. Others are not, and some are downright criminals. It depends.

You might be interested to learn that Utah is the only place in the world a Jew can go and still be called a gentile. This is because they call Utah “Zion”. Anyone non-Mormon is a “gentile” there.

I forgot to mention that Mormons who have spent their whole lives in Utah tend to be more bigoted and have a sense of entitlement than Mormons who live in any other state. I’ve heard that to be the case from out of state Mormons many times. Maybe it comes from being “top dog” or whatever, whereas the ones who didn’t grow up in Utah are more in touch with reality.

Romney grew up in Massachusetts, and has an extensive education. I don’t think he’d be doing as well politically if he were as nutty as some of the life-long Mormons I knew when I lived there.

@JLeslie Part of a behavioral manifestation of certain mental illness are religiosity. The word is religiosity . I am not talking about a person who is seemingly trying to help people by assisting them in getting saved for example. So not really sure what you find funny.

@LornaLove I asked this question in general to avoid flaming (hopefully). I did ask this question because I’ve seen questions on here concerning issues between nonbelievers and believers, but I havn’t seen too many questions addressing problems between believers of different religions themselves. I’m sure that pagans and Wiccans can identify with me here.

I think this question raises an important issue though, religious intolerance. Religious intolerance in my opinion is likely one of the single biggest problems terrorizing this planet, period. I did single out the Abrahamic religions because no other religions were more intolerant of others beliefs throughout the years. Even today there are countries where Christians are persecuted by Muslims, and vice versa.

Religious intolerance isn’t just confined to some of the Abrahamic religions either, and there are even some Hindu and Buddhist countries that have oppressed other religious beliefs as well. I think this is a serious problem, and on top of issue of religious intolerance there’s another problem here: politics. Many countries (and even some US states) write legislation based upon religious beliefs. Religious intolerance in my opinion is a very serious problem.

@snowberry My question could pertain to a person of any religious affiliation. You’re an example of a Christian who themselves dealt with religious intolerance firsthand. Many Christians even condemn other Christians. When I was a Catholic I’d dealt with intolerance from Evangelicals and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and many times I’ve seen many religious people call another’s religion a cult.

@gailcalled I consider myself to be a secular/nonreligious theist. I was a former practicing Catholic.

@Etpro Religion seems to be a very sensitive subject, and I’m probably going to back off from asking these questions on fluther and save them for my other havens. Despite the people who’ve decided to attack my question I don’t regret asking it, because the issue of religious intolerance needs to be addressed.

I’ve been called all types of names by religionists themselves. I was on a Christian dating site a few years ago, and some of the Evangelicals would regularly insult me on my own profile page, saying the most vile things. The site was supposed to be open to all types of Christian denominations, but it was ran by conservative religionists so my antagonists usually got away with the flaming.

@Paradox25 Yep. Been there, done that. I was in a Christian denomination whose members acted cult like (controlling, vindictive, judgmental). The ones who saw it were the ones they ran off, so nobody in the church ever got the message. I finally left too, so I understand.

As I’ve mentioned before, hurting people hurt other people, and the thing is, haters abound everywhere (I’ve met more than a few here). Christianity is no exception. But if you are the one injured, you’re going to remember that rejection for a long time. Unless you separate yourself from the behavior and rise above it you’re likely to become a hater yourself. (This last comment is not directed directly at you, @Paradox25. I mean it as a general rule.)

That said, I’m willing to die for my Lord and Savior. I don’t mean I’ll go to war, but if someone with a gun stood me up against the wall and told me to “recant or die,” I’d rather die. I guess that makes me not only naïve, but a fanatic too.

I should expect the NSA to show up any time now. I’ll be packin’ my bags…

I would say “non-religious theist” is a good description for me, @gailcalled. I don’t go to church, I don’t think about God and I don’t pray to God, for the most part. I did go to church this past Christmas Eve and the previous Christmas eve, to take my daughter to the children’s service, which was children reenacting the nativity. Prior to the previous Christmas eve service, I had not been to any church in about ten years, other than weddings.

Also, @JLeslie, I am Christian (Protestant) but I was not brought up to spread the word to the world. I don’t know where you get that from, that Christians are supposed to spread the word of God. Most people I know that are Christian never even discuss religion at all. My friends who go to church don’t talk about church to me. Maybe a small minority of Christians do, what we call “Born again Christians” but I don’t personally know any Born Agains.

@jca

In fairness to JLeslie, I think I can state where she “gets that from”; primarily, from being surrounded by it. She has been overexposed to the types of Christians who feel duty bound to spread their faith because of living in the South.

If you’re surrounded 24/7 by those who just take it for granted that “everybody” is of a like mindset (as some people in parts of the South just naturally project) its easy to feel kind of overwhelmed if one is Jewish.

And I don’t think her comment is unfair either because she has consistently stated numerous times that she’s aware that Christians are not a monolithic block who all think and act alike.

This is also why, on another thread, I jokingly asked ETPro if he had ever met any Episcopalians after he made a statement that the main problem with Christians is that they can’t keep it to themselves but are constantly trying to convert everybody else.

Episcopalians are the LEAST likely to offend in this regard, hence my joking around about it.

And considering where he’s located (New England) I’m surprised he encounters it much at all since New Englanders are jokingly referred to as “God’s Frozen People”.

So, speaking in generalities, I’m wagering that JL encounters much more of that than he, due primarily to geographic location (North vs. South).

And even tho I’m fully aware that there are significant portions of Christian believers who are not feeling that their family friends and neighbors are all doomed to unending hellfire unless they believe likewise, THAT is still one of my pet peeves with most Christian denominations. Why? Because it is still officially a part of their foundational doctrinal beliefs.

If its becoming increasingly clear that the majority of your members no longer believe in this hell nonsense, (or at least ACT like they don’t) isn’t it way past time to rethink it? Yes, obviously it is.

In my opinion, this one part of the doctrine is responsible for more religious judgementalism, division and negativity in the world and everybody would be so much better off it it could just disappear into the mists of history.

But then, I’m sure there are enough believers who would consider me a heretic for saying so….

But that is the way I see it regardless :)

@Buttonstc Thank you :).

@jca Here is the religious affiliation demographics of your county. I specifically said I am talking about places that are primarily noncatholic Christian like the bible belt, which absolutely does not describe your neck of the woods. And, in my conversation with @snowberry it shows that I think being a minority Christian, even Evangelical Protestant Christian, perspective is very different than being among the majority. Not to mention I don’t think the majority of Christians are preaching the word to everyone they meet, nor do I think their clergy are necessarily pushing them to do it. However, the number of people who do it, who believe they are supposed to do it, and who are so surrounded by religious language, they don’t even half notice they are doing it. The group, even if it is the minority of Christians (again I am not including Catholics) is large enough and concentrated in communities around the country that you notice when you are among it. People invite you to church, as what church you go to, state they are Christian when trying to emphasize they are good people.

Just look at the right wing of the Republican party, they are full of them. In TN politicians literally spoke about Christianity, family values, all that in their commercials on TV. I absolutely would never think of anyone doing any such thing in Westchester County. I’m guess there might be one or two people where you live. Ok, maybe three. Three stray people in the entire county who haven’t yet realized that isn’t going to go over well. Jellies like @knowitall have agreed that in her bible belt community people do “witness” all the time. She is a Christian herself, so it isn’t just me the Jewish atheist outsider making some accusation or assumption.

Think about the numbers. About 50% of the country is Protestant. Even if only 10% of them are talking the talk that is 16 million more or less if my math is right, and they are concentrated in specific communities. To give you perspective there are only 6–7 million Jews in the country, but where you live it probably feels like more than 2% of the country is Jewish.

@LornaLove Oh, I know schizophrenics can have religious hallucinations and feelings of grandeur and even that they themeselves are the messiah. What is funny, a better word is ironic, is that it seemed you were bothered by people generalizing, but what you wrote could be taken as a generalization. I don’t think your were generalizing to mean all religious people are mentally ill, but I also don’t think anyone when they generalize means all. I say this all the time on fluther, and I just don’t get why anyone ever, here or on fluther thinks anyone means all when they generalize. All is all, generalize is just that, a generalization.

@Paradox25 and @Buttonstc:

Thank you for the clear answers.

I just discovered something called Agnostic Theism, to finetune things even further.

By definition, “generalization” means “a proposition asserting something to be true either of all members of a certain class or of an indefinite part of that class.

@gailcalled Well, I constantly clarify I don’t mean all. It’s exhausting. Especially when members who have known me for a very long time see me write: not all, only some, just a percentage, I don’t even mean the majority; consistently in almost everything I write. @Buttonstc understood, so I guess at least one person does. Or, are you talking about the OP? Generalizing is to make a vague statement. Or, a general conclusion. General does not mean definite or all. Maybe one of the definitions can be all, I don’t know where you pulled your definition from, but I would argue there are acceptable definitions that match the way I interpret and infer the word.

Just to add, the OP said many, not all. Many does not even need to mean most. It can just mean enough to notice.

The best debaters use precise language, grammar and punctuation to support their arguments. To have to stop and explain what you mean is always distracting; to wish that words meant other than what they mean is also distracting. If you are backtracking a lot here, then perhaps you do have to be more careful, edit more and strive for accuracy rather than verbosity.

Source of definition;

Your definition even includes indefinite part, which means not all. It can mean either all or not all, but usually minimally the majority.

Merriam Webster

I am being precise by stating: not all, only some, just a percentage, I don’t even mean the majority. What should I say instead? The Christians who do proselytize do it because the religion as they see it tells them they should. In the south one in every 7 people (made up) are religious and think the only path to God is Christianity. Of those people 1 in every 5 (made up) feel it helps themselves into heaven by preaching the word to others. I don’t know the statistics, I can only tell you my experience, and if you spend a week in the bible belt you are very likely for someone to bring up church, Jesus, and Christianity. That does’t happen in NY. If you could see evrything my friends from the south write on their status for facebook I think you would be floored how often they ask for prayers, quote bible verses, write keep Christ in Christmas at Christmas time, write a religious reason for why they disagree with a law or policy, etc.

@snowberry You are quite right, and I do not think you are splitting hairs. I am shocked that I wrote what I did. I meant to wrote “I know of them all…Thanks for pointing out my faulty generalization.

Without reading answers above, I’ll reply that “I don’t know.”

To me, I know what I believe and that there’s nothing other than my own brain that can prove it’s wrong. There’s no need for me to demean other religions or Gods.

But I don’t attend church, I drink wine, I may cuss on occasion and may even go to a bar, so how would I criticize anyone for anything.

@KNOWITALL Although I don’t drink alcohol (don’t like the taste), I am free to do so, and I am free to go to a bar if I choose (but don’t generally, since I don’t care for that scene). I generally don’t cuss, but every once in a while one sneaks past my lips. And I do go to church.

@snowberry In the end, to judge anyone is wrong, my sweet Jesus specifically said he came for the sinners. I personally feel really judged when I attend church so I just don’t. The beautiful world of nature, water, sunshine, and my fellow humans laughter make me feel closeer to Jesus. :)

@KNOWITALL And just because I do go to church, I’m not saying anyone, Christian or not is “bad” or anything else if they choose not to go. I stopped going to church for 2 years because there was no acceptable place for me to go. Christians who choose not to go to church do so for a variety of reasons. In fact we even have a word for it- “Unchurched Christians”

@snowberry Some of us also feel church is more like a business than a place to save souls or change lives which is unacceptable. I’d rather hand the homeless guy down the road my tithe and tell him God bless than line the pockets of a child molester or elderly shyster.

Seriously, it would be an interesting world without formal churches and with congregations dwindling it may just happen in our lifetimes and we can do home churches or nature churches, that would be cool.

@KNOWITALL Yup, that’s part of it. In my case, at that point in my life, Hubby was an abusive creepo (he changed a year later), but because he had such a prominent role in the religious circles in our town, I couldn’t afford to go anywhere that wouldn’t spread gossip. So I simply didn’t go. It still created gossip, but there was less of it.

Regarding membership drives, I won’t go to a church that has one. It’s not appropriate, and is all about marketing. Instead serve God, and let God grow the church.

I’d say ignorance and insecurity. Non-zealous believers don’t have this urge and they can distinguish between beliefs and facts.

@mattbrowne Maybe that’s why they say there’s nothing wrong with a person looking for the Truth, but beware of the person who finds it. Lol, so true.