How to balance responsibility with respect re: Pledge of Allegiance?

As an atheist, you should let him know that “under God” was not part of the original pledge. It was added in 1948, based on Abraham Lincoln’s ad-lib speech of the Gettysburg Address. The words were not in all of his original manuscripts.

Edit: Everyone should know this. Not just atheists.

I think that based on your own ideas and ideals and the bright young man that you’re raising, that he, just like you, will be thinking very independently before too much longer. Even more than he is already, that is.

It won’t hurt him a bit to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and to understand that it is the default for most Americans. I say it myself, except for the last two words that are essentially meaningless to me, and like you, that’s not the way I was raised.

Your son will be fine, and I’m sure he’ll know what all of those words mean in no time at all, and he may (I hope) still decide to say the Pledge firmly (with or without the final words), and mean it.

I FIRMLY believe that no one should be expected to recite an oath before they are capable of comprehending what they are promising

What, you don’t want our nation to be invisible with liberty?

Yes, I am aware of the change. The bigger issue than that, in my mind is being instructed to recite words he doesn’t understand in an oath to an entity he cannot comprehend.

I take speaking the truth to be of extreme importance. I do not abide lying, in any form. If a person’s word is to have any weight, they must strive to always say what they mean.

The fact that it is default bothers me. Not many of us actively CHOSE to be American. It is an accident of our birth, nothing more. By this accident, we are expected to proclaim service, beginning at five years old?

Let the indoctrination begin?

I have yet to comprehend the just us for all part. Does this mean that only those reciting the pledge can try to contribute to the grooviness of the American people? ;-o

I pledge conformity
To the nag
Of the NSA spying on Americans

I agree a five year old doesn’t really understand what the pledge actually means. They just recite it as a matter of course. Since he doesn’t really understand, is it worth making a deal about it? Hard to say. My inclination is to leave the discussion for an older age, but you certainly could tell him why you don’t like it or what the pledge means and see what he comes up with in his 5 year old mind for how he feels about it. Tell him he has the option to say it with the class or choose not to. That way he is aware of his options, but he gets to decide. I just think try not to make it like he is going against mommy if he wants to do it.

You do not have to say the pledge, nor does your son. If you wish not to be conspicuous you can just mouth blah blah, blah to the rhythm of the pldge. Or you can use this combination of mondegreens:
I led the pigeons to the flag, of the united states of america and to the nation of Richard Sands
One nation and a vegetable
with liver tea and just us for all.
(It still needs something to substitute for ‘under God’)

Maybe a better, more instructive way – for your son and for the whole class – would be to let him tell you about saying it, and then you can ask him, “What did it mean? What were you saying and why were you saying it?” You might even have to be more blunt, “Are you going to make a lot of promises with words that you don’t even know to do things that you don’t even understand?”

In other words: Let him ask his teachers, “What are we saying here? I don’t want to make promises that I can’t even understand. What’s the good in that?” Perhaps the teachers will make an effort to explain what it is that they’re saying. I seem to recall that we did this in first grade, but it was so long ago now that I don’t know if I’m making this up or not.

“I want to do it because everyone else is.” ... said the little boy as he scampered of to Hitler youth camp… Sorry to bust Godwin’s law so early, that’s all I can think.

If his choice is made based on what everyone else is doing, and not on the content of the words and his feelings, THAT IS WORSE.

I like the seeds of doubt idea…

I had a flippant answer before, but in all seriousness, the pledge is OK with me.

Civic engagement is a virtue.

@CWOTUS has a great idea – talk about the meaning of the pledge with your kid.

At my sons school, they learn cheers to help remember their lessons. He thinks the pledge of allegiance is just another cheer.

here is another discussion about it.

In the interests of historical accuracy: “under God” was not added to the pledge by law until 1954.

I think it did me no harm whatsoever to learn and to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I have hardly become a mindlessly compliant automaton as a result. If my memory isn’t utterly faulty, my first-grade teacher did explain it to us. I liked the ceremonial formality of it and the sense of unity it fostered. Still do. We have enough differences.

I think the whole idea is fucking stupid, little kids have to trot that out as a matter of course?
I agree with your stance that it’s not something you’d have him do simply because it’s expected of him.
All we ever did at school was greet teacher by singing our names, god I hated that.

If your issue is only the fact the he shouldn’t make an oath he doesn’t understand, explain what the pledge means in words he will understand. Then, let him choose.

screw the pledge. nationalism is a disease and deserves no respect.

At least the school has it in their literature so if he doesn’t say it, the teachers are likely to not make a big deal about it. My mom wound up called into the school when my sister refused to say the pledge.

I also was thinking, why not talk to his teacher and ask her what happens in her class when children don’t stand and recite the pledge. Maybe you can ask if there are other parents that don’t want their children to do it.

For me this would be like if I sent my children to a religious school, because the education was better, and they do morning prayers. I would be conflicted also, especially if it was not my religion. In the end I don’t think I would demand my child not do the prayer, but I would want them excluded from religion class if it was not my religion. I don’t know any child who went to a religious school of a different religion who wound up converting. I know Catholic adults who went to Jewish schools and Jewish adults who went to Catholic schools, and Protestants who went to Catholic schools, and none of them were brainwashed by the other religion. I don’t think saying the pledge brainwashes anyone.

But, I understand your concern is saying something out loud and making a promise matters to you. I respect that. Do you have no allegiance to the country? No feelings of identity with being an America? We can feel allegiance and patriotism and still not march off to Nazi camp. He probably feels allegiance to you, but if you demand something of him that he disagrees with, he will defy you in the end if he is raised to have his own mind, no matter what ritual he participated in.

I like what @augustlan wrote.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies She didn’t even mention under God. Even if under God wasn’t in it the OP has a problem with the pledge.

I am American because I was born here and can’t afford to leave. No, I feel no affinity for this country, and it’s not changing for the better.

How do I explain to my son that they want him to promise fealty to a country that would allow people to die of simple illnesses so insurance companies can stay wealthy? A country that ignores its own bill of rights and spies on its own citizens? A country that forces military occupation on the citizens of countries with natural resources it feels entitled to?

I don’t know if I am informed enough to make a pledge to support a country, much less a small child.

The Pledge isn’t a blanket vow of blind and unquestioning support of government itself or of particular government policies, and it certainly isn’t a pledge to Dear Leader. When I say it, I affirm loyalty to the ideas and ideals embodied in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and to others who affirm the same promise.

No ‘Murica! for me, thanks.

@Seek_Kolinahr Then just say in our family we don’t do the pledge and tell his teacher your son won’t be participating. No different than the Jehovah children who don’t celebrate their birthdays in class and don’t go to school on Halloween dress up day. There is nothing wrong with that.

There is a lot of things I don’t agree with in America, you named some of them, but I also still hang onto what America is supposed to be in my mind and I feel grateful. I feel grateful my family has been relatively safe and free in this country. But, I am in no way trying to convince you to be more patriotic or conform. Your position is completely rational and understandable. I think going along with the group when you completely disagree feels like an assault on our body and mind.

It is, after all, a government school. That means the most stupid idea has equal status with the most brilliant idea that the pool of taxpayers can come up with.

There is always an agenda in the public schools, and it transcends the technical process of education.

So, if it isn’t one thing, it is or will be another.

I, personally, would not worry about the Pledge of Allegiance at the Kindergarten level. There will be plenty of time to repair any damage done if the child forgets to opt out or gets confused. But that is just me.

I don’t say the pledge. Ever. I haven’t since I could understand the words. I would never mouth some garbage to pretend to follow along. I don’t put my hand over my heart (usually). But I stand. I feel that standing is respectful enough.

I would tell my kid that when they go to school there are lots of new things they can do. Some are required and some are a choice. When your teacher tells you to do something, that is required – you must do it (and do it quickly, fully and respectfully). One thing that is a choice is called the pledge of allegiance. The teacher and kids will stand up and look at the flag and put their right hands on their hearts and say words all together. I want you to know that you don’t have to do that. It is optional. But if you choose not to do it, you must be still and quiet so that those who want to say the pledge can do so without distraction.

Some other things that are choices are what to eat at lunch (maybe) and where to play during recess. You also get to choose who to play with, but you must always be kind to all of the other kids.

I agree with @josie about the timing. Even if your kid says the pledge now, they can opt out when they are more informed and independent.

@cupcake – thank you. That is truly helpful.

@Seek_Kolinahr :) I’m glad.

@Cupcake GA.

I think if it bothers you, you should opt out for him. Period, it’s your child and you make the decisions until he’s old enough to do so.

I love my country but I wouldn’t want anyone saying the Pledge of Allegiance unless they meant it.

I figured this was a deeper issue than just him not understanding the pledge. I like what @Cupcake has to say about it, in conjunction with a simple explanation of what the pledge is. Sort of like how we handled religion(s) with our kids: “Some people believe this, some people believe that, some believe this other thing, etc. Mommy believes this doesn’t believe, Daddy believes that, and someday, you can decide what to believe (or not) for yourself.”

@ucme, when did you learn to sing “God Save the Queen”? or did you refuse?

@Jeruba I picked it up watching football, at big games the players are required to sing it before the game begins, pre match ceremonies are such a drag.
I can safely say without fear of contradiction that i’ve never felt the need to sing along, not my thing.

I wonder what is so offensive with the pledge. Basically your promising not to undermine the country. The only politics involved are the part where you say ‘Liberty and Justice for all’. I suppose that might be offensive if you don’t want that. By all means use your kid to make a political statement that you hate your country. He won’t understand why but who cares.

I don’t think it is right for you to take advantage of a public education paid for by the taxpayers if you don’t agree with basic premise of the government you have no respect for.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united States of America.

Why the flag?

And to the republic for which it stands.

The republic made up of representatives who are purchased by corporate interests.

One nation under God

No.

Indivisible.

Whatever.

With liberty and justice for all.

Not from where I’m standing.

…I can’t personally say it.

@YARNLADY – I pay taxes.

I’m not being argumentative, just giving a point of view.

The flag because the flag is symbolic of the country and we face it as we recite the pledge.

We are a republic. We may not be living up to the ideals of the republic, but my America is supposed to be always working to get to those ideals, and I would want my children to hold those ideals.

One nation under God. I certainly could do without the under God part, but it doesn’t drive me crazy. One nation indivisible to me means we are united.

With liberty and justice for all. This reinforces we all should be free and treated equally. Whether we achieve it is a different story, but that is our goal, the premise of the United States of America at its founding.

I think children who grow up feeling they live in a place that is special; it gives them a better chance at feeling they can acheive anything. That the country is open to them with all sorts of possibilities. We can be pissed we fall short as a country, that’s ok.

A 5 year old is not pledging an oath to all the crap in the country that we want to fix. Children are taught we are supposed to be free, united, equal, and just with that pledge in my opinion.

Honestly…don’t make a mountain out of a mole hill. Don’t try and force a 5 year old to buck the tide, to “stand up for himself,” against the rest of the class for reasons they don’t even understand. You can talk about it when he’s older.

He’d have no more concept of why you don’t want him to say it, than he would if you got upset over the class reciting the ABC’s. It would make about as much sense to him.

It isn’t going to hurt him.

GQ, and one I wish more parents thought about. I like Auggie’s answer. I can remember reciting the pledge one morning and realizing for the first time what I was saying. I was horrified that people had trained me to bind myself to an entity without my conscious knowledge, and I never said it again.

I disagree with the sentiment that it hurts no one. It hurts anyone who takes words, especially promises, seriously and who doesn’t happen to agree with the pledge. A pledge made under coercive circumstances is no kind of pledge – and doesn’t it speak badly of the country that elicits a promise in such a sneaky manner? America does not deserve my allegiance if she cannot request it straightforwardly, as the tenets of “liberty and justice” require.

@wild potato gets it.

How old were you when you came to this “horrifying realization,” @wildpotato?

@Dutchess_III I would have been 8 or younger, when I was in private school. They didn’t do it in the public school I switched to. Can’t pinpoint it more than that. Why do you ask?

Just curious as to how old you were when you came to that level of higher reasoning on your own.

When I had issues with the public schools, I made it a point to attend school board meetings and do what I could to encourage change.

I did not find much cooperation, so I home schooedl my sons and grandsons to a great extent.