When is a threat of suicide real and when is it just a way to control people?

She puts you in a horrible position. Can you ask her point blank if she seriously is considering suicide? Many suicidal people actually tell you when they are if you ask. What is she being asked to do that brings this response on? You could also ask her if she wants you to call the authorities to help her. If she wants you to guess what to do it isn’t fair.

Unfortunately, people also use “I’m going to kill myself” as an expression when they are not serious at all. So, sometimes it is hard to know what is really going on.

Clearly she has emotional/mental issues. I do believe people have every right to take their own lives from a place of conscious choice, but….in most cases suicide is about mental health conditions. In this womans case she sounds like a guilt tripping martyr type personality, a chronic victim, “woe is me” personality.
Personally I have no problem discussing conscious suicide with someone but in her case I would tire of the drama, and quite frankly, I’d probably say ” well, that’s certainly a choice you can make..” haha

Call her bluff, do not engage with what she wants, someone to tell her she is great and worthy and show upset over her martyred musings.
It’s a game of “poor me” and manipulation, don’t play.

If you want to engage, you could ask her if she has a plan and if she has the means. Those are two of the questions I remember from someone else’s suicide-and-crisis hotline training.

I’ve always heard that any threat of suicide should be taken seriously. Apparently hers is being taken seriously. You don’t have to do the suicide watch yourself. I’m assuming “a woman I know” isn’t a close friend or relative.

In your place I would certainly stop asking her to do anything.

If someone is serious, they usually don’t talk about it a lot with people I’ve noticed. Of couse if she’s being treated, she’s probably serious, so don’t ask her to do anything for goodness sakes.

And if they’re playing around, trying to manipulate me with that (like a boyfriend), I’ll immediately get extremely mad and tell them to do it. I know that may sound harsh, but they have no intentions on doing it. I refuse to be manipulated with that kind of crap.

If someone threatens suicide, call the Crisis Intervention line and if they’re not serious, they’ll learn the hard way about being manipulative.

Many people are brought to the emergency room stating they are suicidal. Few go on to actually commit it but the distinction is tough and I rely on specialists to make it. If she says she’s suicidal (after directly asking her) call 911.

When my ex-husband and I were separated, he called one evening saying he had taken pills and I wouldn’t have to worry about anything tomorrow… I thought he was full of crap and I hung up on him. He then called my mother, who then called me and I told her that I didn’t believe him, but she didn’t feel comfortable letting it go. She called the police, and they picked him up and brought him to the hospital where he was treated for an overdose. You just can’t ever know when the person will really mean it.

She lives in a room in my house, but I don’t really have much dealings with her. I just hear her through the door. Her boyfriend waits on her hand and foot, and does all the work of taking care of the dog and cat she asked for.

He had to leave work once because of a suicide threat from her. She went online with how lonely she was and worthless and felt like dying. An online friend called the police and they came and got her.

Ah, that changes the picture. The things she’s being asked to do are just part of living harmoniously in a shared household, are they not?—such as please wash your own dishes and please put on a fresh roll of toilet paper when you use the last of it?

She may in fact think she’s a burden on others and ought to die, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t manipulative. I’d say it’s up to you to decide how much of that you want to take on for the sake of a paying tenant.

Are drugs and alcohol involved?

“I’m sorry Tenuous Tenant but the police have been called for your behavior twice already. I cannot and will not tolerate this any more. If there is one more disturbance I am going to ask you to leave. I am changing the lease from yearly to month-to-month and will be raising the rent $10 per month effective Nov 1.”

Print out the new lease and give her the copy tomorrow.

@YARNLADY – She clearly needs mental health care. NAMI.org

Unless you have a Ph.D. In Psychology, or are a Psychiatrist then you should treat every threat of suicide as serious. Call the hotline and let the police/mental health professionals sort it out. She may need to be hospitalized, her behavior certainly is inappropriate and places other people in very uncomfortable situations. The fact that she has already self-harmed is a major red flag.

@KNOWITALL It’s a myth that people who talk about suicide don’t go through with it. I forget the stats, but I’m pretty sure people who talk about it beforehand are MORE likely to go through with it.

Must agree with @LuckyGuy. Give her something else to think about. Not much time to consider suicide when you’re busy looking for a new place to live.

“You’ve made threats of committing bodily harm within my household. That negates any lease. You’ll find your things on the front lawn. Be gone by end of day or you and your possessions will be removed by force. Good luck and goodbye.”

Get a restraining order and get her gone.

Yes, I agree with that sentiment too!

Personally I have no patience with people with these issues, call me hard nosed but…I totally support people that want to kill themselves. I know I’m going to take a lot of flak for my philosophy but….IF one really wants to check out, I say let them do it!
This goes for terminally ill and mentally ill. The only suicides I feel sadness over are young kids.

Otherwise…just do it and stop all the drama.
There is no way I’d molly coddle some drama ridden, mentally ill, suicidal person.
A suicide watch, forget it, if you’re lucid enough to talk about wanting to die you are perfectly capable of getting your own help if you really want it.

@Jeruba No alcohol, and the only drugs are prescribed by her doctor.

@hearkat She is on Medicare, so it’s difficult to find a doctor, but she has appointments about twice a month.

@coloma the genuinely suicidal are ill, not conniving manipulators. Most genuinely lethal but failed suicide attempts, the attemptee snaps out of it and regrets their decision. I treated a young man who put a hand gun in his mouth. The bullet exited the top of his head between the lobes of his brain. The entire time in the er he was all “what was I thinking”. The conniving manipulators, of course, are scum. The problem is telling the difference between the two.

@drhat77 I understand, really I do, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying mentally ill people should not get treatment, but…on the other hand, if they really want to die, it’s their choice, just like abortion. My body, my choice. The same should apply to suicide IMO.
Agree with the conniving manipulators, but they are mentally ill too. Healthy, conscious people don’t use manipulative attention seeking tactics.

Depression/suicidality is axis I (treatable). Once treated those patients regret their rash decisions. The problem is successful suicide is difficult to regret in the long run.
Being an insufferable shithead is axis II (not treatable) and they’re better off as soylent green. They almost never regret what they do to others.

@Coloma I have a really hard time understanding your post. I usually have a lot of respect for your opinions, but “Otherwise…just do it and stop all the drama.” is a pretty repugnant statement. Suicidal people are by definition mentally ill. Their brains are literally not functioning properly. It’s like chastising someone with a broken leg for walking too slowly and holding up the group.

If someone has a terminal condition and is suffering horribly, then that’s a separate issue and I would support suicide there. In every other instance, the person is mentally ill and needs help.

@drhat77 Haha…agreed. I too am fairly knowlegable about psychological conditions. I was married to a pathological narcissist. read: Shithead. lol

@gorillapaws I already explained myself and I agree depression and other mental illnesses deserve intervention, at the same time I do not have patience for drama queens/kings. I already tossed out my disclaimer that I knew my opinion would not be a popular one.

@YARNLADY – The website I linked is an excellent resource for mental health services, including free or sliding-scale fees. It seems that the current treatment is inadequate. Even if she is simply being manipulative, that is a serious extreme and she needs professional help.

@gorillapaws Actually I disagree. I think it is entirely possible to not be mentally ill and still wish to exit the world. Someone, as the woman in question, clearly feeds off the attention, and is, most likely mentally ill, but….I think it is entirely possible to make a conscious choice to die without any mental illness at play.

@Coloma people who are not terminal and contemplating suicide are mentally ill. I rarely speak in absolutes but death is absolute so there is no margin of error with this.

Anyone can have the capacity to end their lives, including some people who attempt to use the threat of this as a way of getting their own way. However, most people I knew who’ve taken their own lives usually surprised everybody when they actually killed themselves.

There were exceptions to the latter scenerio where I’ve known openly depressed people who killed themselves, but most suiciders that I knew never gave much of a clue that they were going to end their own lives.

@Coloma “I think it is entirely possible to make a conscious choice to die without any mental illness at play”

What evidence are you basing this opinion on?

@gorillapaws
I have read many philosophical discussions on choosing suicide from a place of conscious awareness. The right to die in Oregon is a great documentary film. If you google “suicide by choice” or “What’s wrong with suicide?” many thoughtful discussions and articles will emerge. I think it is perfectly possible to be of sound mind and decide that one has had enough of life. This could be based on many factors, health issues, poverty, or simply being tired of living and feeling that one has had enough life experiences to suffice.

Suicide does not always have to involve/ be associated with mental illness by any means.
Granted, MOST suicides do involve mental health issues, brain chemistry issues, depression etc. but not an absolute.
I happen to think it is selfish to insist others continue living if they truly do not want to, for whatever reasons.
Suicide is still a taboo topic, but I don’t see why people should not take their own lives if they truly desire to, religious fervor aside of course.

I’m but a simple cave man, from simpler times. When your scientists unfroze me from that glacier, I emerged into a world that I find frightening and confusing. But there is one thing I know for certain: suicidality is a sign of mental illness, and must be treated as such. I rest my case.

@Coloma I’m having a hard time seeing much in the way of a rational philosophical argument there. The human brain is hardwired to want to survive, this can be circumvented in the cases of self-sacrificing for other members of your tribe, or in terminal cases where there will never be any improvement in a painful condition. Now, people can convince themselves that suicide is reasonable through religious indoctrination (i.e. drinking the Kool-Aid) or cultural indoctrination (i.e. sepuku because of failure/dishonor, or suicide because you were raped and permanently dishonored), but none of these reasons are rational.

Rationally thinking people don’t ignore their hardwired survival instinct simply because they’re bored, or had enough life experiences to suffice. In order to get to that point you have to have something wrong with your mental wiring.

@YARNLADY Thank you for trusting us and bringing this situation to our attention. I am sorry for the chronically depressed person. Depression is a nasty disease, robbing the victim of any desire for daily activities, relationships, and life.

It’s a scourge on the sufferer and the caregivers.

Your question is not possible for me to answer in detail. I don’t live under your roof with this depressed woman. I don’t know her.

I can speak from my experience. I have been depressed. I have attempted suicide. I thought of it endlessly for years and years. I was serious about it every time I said it out loud. For me, voicing it was a signal that I was indeed contemplating killing myself. I couldn’t hold in the anguish. I wanted the suffering to stop.

That’s good for me to remember. When I was in the depths of despair, I simply wanted the pain to stop. Pain consumed me, and I wanted it to end.

I don’t think there is a general rule I can point to that will explain the difference between genuine suicidal ideation and manipulation. It’s just my personal experience, but I never once used the threat of killing myself to manipulate.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is an ongoing situation in your house. I vaguely remember other questions about this woman’s mental health and her inability or unwillingness to help around the house. What is the issue here?

Is it her disease or not doing as others desire her to do?

The threat of suicide is always real, even if the perpetrator is an histrionic manipulator. There’s just that one time it might be real. And even possible that that one time may be driven by exasperation that no one is taking her seriously.

If she is not a blood relative, I would want her gone. Responsibility for her continuing to live each day should not be yours.

You never know which time will be the time. My first husband threatened for seven years before he finally went through with it.

@Hawaii_Jake Thank you for sharing. The goal would be to see a lot more co-operation and participation in her daily life. It’s not to make her do something she doesn’t want to do. I hear a lot of loud complaining coming from their room, and she often says things like I mentioned above. It sounds to me like she just wants to get out of accepting responsibility.

However, your experience is helpful. Her background includes severe rejection by her father and a very stormy childhood, resulting in really bad nightmares

@YARNLADY, point of clarification: do you want to see her cooperate more and participate more with you or with her boyfriend? Is she saying these things to you, or are you overhearing them?

@YARNLADY I think you need to take all threats of suicide seriously, but she sounds toxic and you should try to have her move out as soon as is reasonable. The law gives landlords much more leeway when the tenant is renting a room as opposed to a separate residence.

@gorillapaws I am not advocating suicide, just saying that I do believe people can make conscious, rational, choices for their own deaths. Sure, we are hardwired to survive if a lion jumps us in the weeds but not the same thing as consciously choosing to check out for a myriad of rational reasons. Suicide can be a rational decision and don’ t forget, in many cultures such as the Japanese Samurai , suicide is considered honorable.
The suicide taboo is mostly a western/christian construct.

While we are on the subject of suicide.,,,
I worked as first medic on an ambulance service for many years. I mostly worked weekends Friday and Saturday nights were mostly car accidents (usually due to drinking) and fights. I hated those nights and was not very sympathetic to drunks – especially ones who thought I could not tell they were driving while drunk. If I got to scene and the driver was smoking (to cover the alcohol) they would be the last person I handled.
Sundays and holidays were mostly quiet except for suicides – attempts or successes. Middle-aged men would be ‘successes’. They used a shotgun or hand gun and did it. Done.
At the other end of the spectrum were 23 year old females who would take Tylenol 3 or 4 with codeine (the OD drug of choice 30 years ago). They called their friends, called their family, called old boy friends, called everyone they knew until one of them called the ambulance. Now, I figure they would make a FB post or send out a tweet.

The family of the men would always be shocked. The family and friends of young females would not be. “This is the nth time she’s tried it.”
I figured if someone really wanted to do it they would write a note and put it next to their pillow.

@LuckyGuy Yeah, I was told many many years ago in one of my psych classes men are better at commiting suicide, women are good at attempting. Men use guns, jump off bridges, jump off buildings, hang themselves, basically no way back; and women tend to take pills. Problem is when the relatives and friends get fed up with the threats of suicide and the woman actually does wind up dead.

Meanwhile, I had no idea you worked as a medic.

@Jeruba I only hear them through the door/wall. He asks her to help out and she puts on the “I’m no good” act.

My question came up when I read about a similar case on another Fluther question.

Yep. That was a while ago when I was much younger. Over 2000 hours of active duty. I learned a lot.
Often the young females would take enough to do it but a friend would bail them out. “I really don’t know if I should be calling but a friend of mine called me….”
Guys would just do it. Bam. Lost control of their car and accidentally hit the bridge abutment – 2 weeks after they heard they were going to be investigated for XYZ.
Or the shot gun out on the patio so it did not make a mess in the house.

I figure if someone really wants to commit suicide, they will and they won’t tell a soul. There are a bunch of methods that are probably pretty fool proof – hanging themselves, jumping off a building or a bridge are two that seem pretty effective.

This person that lives with @YARNLADY seems manipulative, but I would still call the Crisis Center (or whatever it’s called in her area) and get the woman taken for 72 hour watch each and every time. If the woman is not serious about it, she’ll get sick of constantly being taken away. Also, like @LuckyGuy said, raise her rent and threaten to kick her out if she still pulls her crap.

Middle aged suicide has gone up a huge percentage with the faltering economy.
All middle aged people are at high risk these days, but…white males 60 and over are in the highest risk group.
Women usually want to talk about their problems, depression, fears, worries, most men don’t. They suffer in silence and then pull the trigger.

@Coloma True. Men were hit hardest with the economic downturn psychologically. When I was working in the psych hospital we admitted a lot of depressed suicidal men. One hung himself in the hospital while inpatient; a nightmare for the hospital of course. Poor guy, I really felt awful about it. I hadn’t interacted with him, but I guess he was just desperate to die. His pain was too great.

Men over 60, you think that is the economic downturn? Or, might it also be health problems or loneliness?

@LuckyGuy I really don’t know if I should be calling but… LOL, I know I shouldn’t be laughing, but that so sounds like my husband describing women.

The whole cry for help and manipulation thing is such a tricky problem. The person really does need help. I don’t think they understand how it is manipulative, I think from their perspective they are in a state of desperation.

@JLeslie Historically it is white males over 60 that have the highest rate of suicide, but, as is not uncommon during economic downturns( the great depression era and other economic faltering ) the suicide rates soar.

Weighing in:
I learned in grad school 100 years ago to have a suicidal or suicide-talking person sign a suicide contract saying they will not kill themselves without talking it over with you first. People readily sign this and it makes them more accountable and less likely to be impulsive. It’s stupid, really, because obviously if they’re really at the end of their patience with life they aren’t going to care about this contract. But it seems to help. Strange.

I would not say it’s your job to do this or any other intervention. I believe your job is to speak clearly to this lady and get her out of your house. She’s torturing you. Her own torture is real, I’m sure, but it’s not your responsibility.

Do you think this is hardhearted? Me too. But she won’t feel like she’s part of the living world if everyone around her lets her abuse them. Treat her like she’s capable and she may even be motivated to begin taking care of herself better. And if she can’t, well, it won’t be on your watch.

@susanc Standing ovation! To say what we are not programmed to say! To absorb others issues is codependent. One can be concerned and have compassion without taking on responsibility that is not rightfully their own.
I also still stand by my thoughts that suicide is truly one of the ONLY remaining taboo subjects.
Try to talk to anyone about the reality of, potentially CHOOSING suicide for oneself due to any number of reasons and watch them scatter like a covey of Quail. lol

@susanc Depression is a disease. The woman is not abusing everyone around her. She is sick.

Your answer is quite ordinary. It blames the victim of the disease for her own plight. “Treat her like she’s capable and she may even be motivated to begin taking care of herself better.” In my personal experience from my own depression, nothing—absolutely nothing—that was done to me got me out of the mire of depression.

I was saved by doctors and nurses and therapists and caseworkers who cared and made sure I got medicine and occasionally stays in the hospital.

Recovery from mental illness is possible. I’m living proof. However, it doesn’t come from a swift kick to the curb when the patient is down.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide

I agree with the liberalism viewpoint

@Coloma Me too.

@YARNLADY – Just curious, but I recall that your son’s live with you. Is this woman living with one of them? Or are she and her boyfriend both strangers to you? The former would definitely complicate your ability to handle it as an impartial landlady.

@Hawaii_Jake: Recovery from mental illness does not come from a swift kick to the curb, but in the case of the OP, @YARNLADY, she has to decide what role or what responsibility she feels to this person who rents a room in her house, and how much she is willing to have her life disrupted by the threats and possibly manipulative actions of the renter.

@hearkat two of my grandsons live with me and help out with the expenses She is the girlfriend of one of my grandsons. When he asked if she could move in, he neglected to mention her baggage.

@Hawaii_Jake Thank you for this rebuttal. I am glad you’re alive. But you did something to accomplish that, I imagine? It’s hard work, no matter how much good help you have, to recover from depression. I’m glad you did that.
I’m not really thinking @YARNLADY is about to kick anyone to the curb. She’s not really that kind of person. But she also isn’t a doctor, nurse, therapist, caseworker. She’s just a landlady – a good one, a patient one, but she’s not equipped to take care of this poor soul. What do you think she should do? love, Susanc

If I have the picture right at last, here’s the situation: @YARNLADY‘s grandson has his girlfriend living with him. The girlfriend expects him to do for her and cater to her in every way, and when he asks her to take responsibility for anything, she starts the suicidal talk. @YARNLADY is not directly involved but overhears these exchanges because they take place audibly and in her house. She’s no landlady, there’s no tenancy or rent involved, but rather she is a hostess of sorts to this couple, the contributing grandson and the noncontributing girlfriend. She would like to rescue her grandson from being taken advantage of, held hostage by, and being exploited by this woman who lives in her house. At the same time, she doesn’t want to misjudge a person who might in fact be in serious trouble and need medical intervention.

Is that a fair summation, @YARNLADY?

@Jeruba Yes, I am actually trying to understand that kind of behavior. I’ve never directly known anyone with clinical depression, and it just ends up sounding like a cop-out to me.

Here is the NAMI stie’s page on depression. @hearkat gave the link to their home page above. Since you mentioned you’ve never directly known anyone with clinical depression, perhaps this will help explain the disease.

@Hawaii_Jake Thank you. The NAMI here is largely a waste of time. They have given her four references to doctors in our area, just to find out the doctors are no longer taking MediCal. The woman’s clinic that was helping her is so overwhelmed with patients, they first cut her back to bi-weekly appointments, then twice a month, and one appointment is phone only! They just cancelled her appointment for tomorrow.

My issue is how am I to cope with her behavior. She never lifts a finger to help around the house, and yells at my grandson constantly. He loves her very much.

Just recently, she went with him to a family funeral and told off his mother and his brother, telling them they have always mistreated him. Now, neither of them are on speaking terms with him or her.

I am sorry to hear NAMI is so ineffectual where you are. Instead of looking for NAMI support for this woman, perhaps you might benefit. Here is their page of support for families. The local chapter here where I live does utterly nothing for the people with mental illness, but they have good programs for the caregivers. They have a program called Family to Family that may be of interest to you.

In the meantime, it might be best for your grandson and this woman to get counseling together. I do not know more than what’s written here and what I remember from a few previous questions, but it’s my simple opinion that he needs help as much as she does.

And that doesn’t help you. Depression is a puzzling disease. One doesn’t want to hurt, but one also doesn’t want to enable.

When I was at my lowest, I was unable to perform even basic personal hygiene. I only mention this to give some standard by which to measure. If this woman can take care of her body, then she can also do a chore.

I believe I would suggest giving her a very small task daily. I don’t think I would make a list or even write them on a calendar. Seeing a list of any type may overwhelm her. Start by asking your grandson, assuming the woman won’t speak directly to you, for her to do one small thing.

When I say small, I mean tiny. When I began to claw my way out of my despair, I did it by forcing myself to brush my teeth. I added daily showers after a few days. I tagged on laundry after that, but I kept those at small loads of the basic necessities.

It might be best to suggest she clean one small thing in the room she shares with your grandson. I would pick something that you are aware she likes: a shelf of DVDs that might need dusting, for example.

I wish you the best.

Here’s the crux of it, then:

> My issue is how am I to cope with her behavior.

If her behavior is directed toward you or affects you directly, you can do something about it. You can set the terms under which she is welcome to live in your house. You don’t have to continue to give free shelter to someone whose behavior is unacceptable to you or disruptive to your household. Her lack of contribution—essentially her total freeloading—should give you plenty of leverage.

You can also tell him that he can continue to live there only as long as certain conditions are met, and you can state what terms are acceptable to you.

And of course you can ask her to leave any time you want, for any reason or no reason. It’s your house.

If it’s about her behavior toward your grandson, though, here’s the thing: that’s their relationship, not yours. Its his boundary to set. You can’t get in between them or fix their relationship or rescue him from what you perceive as unacceptable interaction between them. No one ever knows what really goes on between two other people. Obviously he is getting something out of this, however warped it may look to you. It isn’t unacceptable to him.

It can be really hard to know where the line is between what’s our business and what’s someone else’s, especially when it goes on under our roof. But what happens between the two of them is on the far side of that line, as long as it doesn’t involve you.

@YARNLADY – Since this is having an impact on the rest of your family, perhaps you could seek out counseling yourself and get professional advice? Do you and/or your grandson have health benefits? She is clearly holding him emotionally hostage with these threats. I hope they don’t have kids together and that he is doing everything he can to prevent pregnancy at this point in time. Good luck.

I understand what you are sharing @Hawaii_Jake but, IMO…the point is…
it is not @YARNLADY s job to manage and mentor and cajole this woman into doing little chores like dusting her TV. If the woman is so screwed up she cannot function and is, obviously, causing discord and stress within the household I say it’s time to give her the boot.
@YARNLADY had no idea what she was getting herself into when allowing this woman to move in with the grandson.
Does the woman need help and intervention?

Yes.
Is it @YARNLADY ‘s responsibility to coach and counsel her and jump through hoops? No.

@Coloma What is your opinion on treating people who have disease? If a person has a broken leg, do you ask them to dash downstairs and bring up a glass of water?

Clinical depression, which is also called major depression, is a disease. However, mental illness is often not visible except by behavior. We often think behavior can be changed when it cannot.

It’s all our responsibility to provide assistance for those with mental illness. We do that in many ways. We pay taxes for programs that aid us with mental illness. We read books on the subject to better understand it. We take classes to enrich our understanding even further. We volunteer with helpful organizations. And some of us give shelter.

@YARNLADY is going through a very difficult time. I am trying to give voice as someone from the other side of the stigma against mental illness.

@Hawaii_Jake I am not disputing the need for intervention, or stigmatizing mentally unwell people, just saying that it is NOT @YARNLADY s responsibility to take on this womans issues. She agreed to allow her grandsons girl friend to live with him in her home, she did not sign up for coping with a mentally unwell person. Now that this situation has unfolded there is nothing wrong with her wanting this person to go.
@YARNLADY s only responsibility is to reclaim her own home for what it should be, a haven not a flop house for unstable people.

Compassion for those coping with others mental issues is equally important.
@YARNLADY s mental and emotional health counts too.
Nobody should have to walk on eggshells in their own home.

@Coloma “If the woman is so screwed up she cannot function and is, obviously, causing discord and stress within the household I say it’s time to give her the boot.” That is stigma. I recognize it as such because I live with stigma every day.

It is my understanding, and I am quite willing to admit I am wrong, that @YARNLADY is not the direct recipient of this woman’s behavior. I believe @Jeruba said that if the behavior is directed at @YARNLADY then she has every right to demand a change. If, instead, it is directed at the grandson, then it’s between them.

@YARNLADY is faced with a delicate situation. There’s a person with a diagnosed mental illness on the one hand, and there’s her grandson on the other. What I have been attempting on this thread is to show ways of helping all involved in the household. I disagree that the woman should be given the boot. Relationships—even the one between @YARNLADY and the woman—don’t come with an expiration date.

@Hawaii_Jake I know these matters are close to your heart, and I respect that, really I do.
However…I am also an advocate for those that have to cope with moody, depressed, unwell types. No easy answers, but…@YARNLADY is still having to absorb the dark energies that permeate her home, even if the grandson is bearing the brunt of this womans condition she is party to all the stress and drama as well. A tough situation, lets just leave it at that. :-)

That’s not quite what I said, @Hawaii_Jake, though close. My opinion is that @YARNLADY can’t intervene in the relationship between her grandson and his girlfriend. She can’t make the girlfriend treat him better or stop coercing him.

But I believe she has every right to protect the peace, security, and comfort of her home. If the woman were a kleptomaniac, should she submit to having her belongings stolen? If the woman were a pyromaniac, should she live with the constant risk of a fire in her home? What if the woman were carrying an airborne disease, or had screaming fits in the night, or violently attacked others? @YARNLADY is not responsible for providing this woman with free housing, or seeing that she gets appropriate care, far less for going for counseling herself in order to gain strength in coping with this situation.

Stigmatizing a disease means regarding it as somehow shameful or disgraceful. This is not about stigma. It’s about real and present consequences of someone’s behavior. The young woman is doing the behaving, and @YARNLADY is suffering the consequences. This is not right. @YARNLADY does not have to diagnose the behavior or even class it as mental illness. She only has to know that it disrupts her household. If that is the case, she is well within her rights to call for an end to it.

In my opinion it is up to the grandson to take action here. The familial relation is between him and @YARNLADY, and he is the reason for the young woman’s presence.

Whether or not relationships come with an expiration date, some domestic arrangements do. If someone asks to crash on your couch for a few days, what do you do when six months have passed? If your roommate has a boyfriend stay overnight, do you care if he brings all his belongings and moves in? When you invite a friend to dinner, do you expect to have to shove her out after three years? There has to be an understanding that respects both sides. @YARNLADY is being taken advantage of, and she is not to be chastised for looking out for her own rights instead of laying herself down for others to walk on.

I apologize if I have come across as saying @YARNLADY should be chastised. Such an intimation was not my intent. It is indeed a tough situation. Above, I called it delicate.

I will be eternally grateful for those family members and friends and professional caregivers in my life who saw me in despair and carefully guided me to a path of recovery. I only wish to be a voice of caution on this thread. I do not think that suggesting a person educate themselves on a disease another person living under their roof suffers from is out of line.

I have no argument that @YARNLADY has every right to run her home as she sees fit.

I see stigma against mental illness in this thread. Some examples are blatant and some are subtle. Nevertheless, it is here.

You are right, @Jeruba. The OP is about the threat of suicide. In the course of the thread much other information has been revealed, and the discussion has shifted. I have tried to follow the thread and have a say. It’s my experience that when dealing with mental illness, we can all help.

I’m rambling. I have finished a hard week, and I’m grateful for the holiday weekend starting.

I didn’t ascribe that to you, @Hawaii_Jake. I did read all the posts. I was speaking generally, after the first paragraph.

Compassion for weakness and disability of every kind seems right to me. But that’s not an attitude that can be forced on anyone, and not everyone has the means or ability to support someone who is in distress. I think it matters that @YARNLADY was apparently tricked into this situation.

My secondary point (after the one about relationships) is that you don’t have to diagnose the causes of a person’s behavior to know what you can and can’t live with. Only @YARNLADY can say how much she’s willing to put up with for the sake of the balance of forces in her house. I’ve also been wondering what her husband thinks of this business.

I agree with @Coloma and @Jeruba. What @YARNLADY is going through is more than many people would put up with. Yes, it’s lovely she’s tolerating this in her home and giving a place to stay to her grandson and his friend, but when it disrupts @YARNLADY‘s peace and sanity then I say @YARNLADY should think about what she is willing to tolerate and at what cost.

It seems to be more than @YARNLADY signed up for.

If it were me, I may be a bit more tolerant if it were my own family member, but even so, I don’t think I’d have tolerated what has taken place so far.

It seems like there’s a fine line between being sympathetic and being used. @YARNLADY stated “He asks her to help out and she puts on the “I’m no good” act.” They have a dog and a cat that the woman asked for but the grandson takes care of.

It gets to a point where it all becomes enabling behavior. Just my opinion.

I’m sorry to come back to the discussion so late. I grew up with a schizophrenic brother, so I have a lot of experience with mental illness.

I have been out of town for a delightful, though hectic vacation. I have some good news. Apparently they have come to an understanding. They recently purchased bikes and have begun a daily ride program. He was out shopping for her new, healthy diet. She was in very good spirits. It sounds good.

@YARNLADY Thank you very much for the update, and I’m delighted to hear the good news.