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ETpro's avatar

What are we?

Asked by ETpro (34605points) August 24th, 2013

It seems such a simple question, but the easy, glib answers don’t tell us much. We are humans. We are mammals. We’re animals. We’re solids, or so we were called by the shapeshifting Odo of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

In a world filled with solids, fluids, gases and some weird things called waves, we aren’t exactly any of those, but some mixture of them all. And despite all of that, we are almost entirely nothing—empty space. Human “common sense” evolved to serve our ancestors as hunter gatherers on the savannahs of Central and Southern Africa. Common sense simply will not do to answer this simple-sounding question fully, because the full answer extends so incredibly far beyond where our natural senses can reach.

Let me illustrate. In Tanzania, there is a huge dune-like thing that was formed by the ash from an eruption of the Ol Donyo Lengai volcano in 1969. Because there is a prevailing wind blowing in one direction for most to the year, the barchan (the dune-like thing, pronounced bahkahn) walks slowly across the valley floor. It moves about 17 meters per year. It is beautifully sculpted by the wind, which blows individual grains slowly up the windward side till they reach the crest, then tumble down the steeper leeward side. If we could watch a time-lapse video of it, the object would appear to our limited senses to be a wave. But it isn’t a wave. It walks. Waves in the ocean seem to our drastically limited perceptive abilities to move in the same manner as the barchan, but much faster. However, in ocean waves, individual molecules of water do not move horizontally. They stay in a fixed horizontal position and move vertically. Sound waves in the air are the same. Air molecules are moving up and down as the wave propagates through the air. If they were moving toward us, that would be wind and not sound.

What moves in electromagnetic waves? Victorians wondered, and applying human “common sense” figured it had to be something, so they invented Ether and posited that radio, x-ray, and electro-magnetic waves were motion up and down in the Ether. Unfortunately, there is no ether. We humans, with our very limited ability to see radiation, see a tiny stretch of the radiation bandwidth, the visible light from red to violet. But if that visible light spectrum were 1 inch high, the total spectrum of radiation would extend for miles up and downward from the portion we can sense. And all of that is at play within us. Solids, liquids, gasses (which occasionally escape bringing much embarrassment) and waves. Cosmic rays and neutrinos are passing through us as we read this, because we are mostly empty space. If one atom that makes us up were a fly sitting in the center of a football field, the next atom would be outside the stadium in the center of its own stadium. The wall of my office is equally made up mostly of empty space. But when I hit it at non relativistic speeds, it feels so solid I come away with a big bruise.

I was reading something Steve Grand wrote. He noted that we are more like waves than permanent ‘things’. He invited his readers to think…

      ... of an experience from your childhood. Something you
      remember clearly, something you can see, feel, maybe even
      smell, as if you were really there. After all you really
      were there at the time, weren’t you? How else could you
      remember it? But here is the bombshell: you weren’t there.
      Not a single atom that is in your body today was there
      when that event took place…. Matter flows from place to
      place and momentarily comes together to be you. Whatever
      you are, therefore, you are not the stuff of which you are
      made. If that does not make the hair stand up on the back
      of your neck, read it again until it does, because it is
      important.

So what the heck are we. It’s clear that the “common sense” we evolved to use as hunter gatherers on the African Savannah cannot answer the question. Whatever we actually are just doesn’t make sense to our limited perceptual abilities and the understanding that perception informs. And yet, as we now have invented sensors to extend our tiny 1-inch bandwidth all the miles up and down the spectrum, we can begin to contemplate what we really are. What answers will we find?

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66 Answers

gailcalled's avatar

Chopped liver?

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

We are a six billion character string of binary code running from a trinary operating system. The code instructs the operating system to build specific physical architectures using the white noise of chaos as a materials supply. Rather brilliant actually.

Coloma's avatar

We are stardust, amino acids from space. ALL life forms evolved from the same life giving components the molecules are just arranged a little differently between a goose and a human or a redwood tree or a trout.
This is why we are all “one”, but human ego doesn’t like having to acknowledge it’s form is not any more or less special than a turnip. lol

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

You’re missing a fundamental agent in your formula @Coloma. Startdust and amino acids don’t make life. It takes a dash of codified information to make life. Without the codified information, it’s all rocks and noise.

Coloma's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Well yes, and you have filled in my blanks very well. lol
Still..turtle, turnip or timber…everything springs from the same building blocks of life.

Blondesjon's avatar

We are young. Heartache to heartache we stand.

Coloma's avatar

@Blondesjon Oh eff you…now I will have that song in my head all day….no promises, no demaaands, love is a battlefield. PFFFT! lol

Dutchess_III's avatar

We are Jellyfish.

thorninmud's avatar

ETPro, this question is the heart of Zen. To fully live this question is exactly what Zen practice is.

Whether or not you think of it in those terms, the moment you recognize that “It’s clear that the ‘common sense’ we evolved to use as hunter gatherers on the African Savannah cannot answer the question. Whatever we actually are just doesn’t make sense to our limited perceptual abilities and the understanding that perception informs”, and that “Matter flows from place to place and momentarily comes together to be you. Whatever you are, therefore, you are not the stuff of which you are made”, then you are in Zen territory.

Take a look at this interchange between one of the iconic figures of Zen, Bodhidharma, and the Emperor Wu of Liang back around 700 A.D.:

The Emperor asked Bodhidharma, “What is the first principle of the holy teaching?”

Bodhidharma answered, “Vast emptiness, with nothing that could be called ‘holy’”.
He could just as well have said “There is nothing fixed or solid, no ‘thing’ at the bottom of any of this, much less anything that can be called ‘holy’”

The Emperor then asked him, “Who is this that stands here before me?”
He could just as well have asked, “Then what are we?”

Bodhidharma answered, “I don’t know”
He could just as well have said, “Whatever we actually are just doesn’t make sense to our limited perceptual abilities and the understanding that perception informs”.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

From Grand quote ”...you are not the stuff of which you are made…”

I’ve been trying to get this point across for decades. Yet no one except one Ted Talks astrophysicist (can’t remember his name) has said anything remotely close to validated my analogy. He used the identical analogy that I’ve used. I’ll try and explain it here the best I can.

Do you want to see the real universe? I mean the REAL universe. Turn on your television to a static noise channel. There it is. That’s the real universe. Not an analogy. Not a metaphor. That is the real universe as it really exists.

“Do you want to hear the real universe? Untune your radio from a station. Hear the static? That’s the real universe.

We don’t see or hear it that often because we are programmed for programming. We humans only consider the programming as real. See that rock? It’s only a rock because we codified a description upon random noise. The rock is some thing because we made it in to a thing by putting a label on random noise. Without the label (the programming), it’s just noise.

Entertain this notion for a moment. Take the TV static, and imagine slowing it down a billion times so that you could get a longer view of each potential. The black pixels are off. The white pixels are on. Each black pixel literally represents a no thing. Each white pixel literally represents a potential some thing.

We notice the longer lasting potential some things. They are anomaly. “Those pixels are staying lit unusually long”. We observe the anomaly, and give it a name. We call it Jupiter, or Quasar, or Nebula. They are not permanent. They arose as an anomalous and random assemblage of potential some things. They are white pixels of potential that lasted long enough for someone to observe and describe them. They get different labels because they are not the same as other white pixels of potential. They will eventually disperse and vanish… just like the white pixels… until they are no more, and nothing is left of them except no things.

The same applies to the untuned radio static. Slow it down a billion times and you’ll notice pops and peaks better. Those are anomalies. We observe the anomalies because that’s the only “potential” that WE CAN observe.
____________

Here’s where it gets really freaky. Just because we can observe certain anomalies long enough to label them… that doesn’t mean that’s all there is to observe. The sophistication of our instrumentation limits our ability to observe each potential anomaly.

I could go on and on with this. Just the basics here. In short, we are beings of codified information with the capacity of identifying potentiality based upon the erroneous limitations of the instrumentation we use to do so.

KaY_Jelly's avatar

We are superfluous, important, extravagant, ordinary, young, old, mature, ignorant, living, dying, sick, healthy, we are happy, sad, emotional, we are the one remaining oxymoron of the future.

dabbler's avatar

Points of self-aware consciousness, manifest in human bodies.
( I am assuming all of us here on the fluther are humans, although as they say: on the internet nobody knows you’re a dog. )

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@thorninmud and I have both zeroed in on the same Grand quote.

I’m going to challenge that perspective. Not only are we exactly the stuff of which we are made, but we become more than that stuff throughout our existence.

The key here is how one defines stuff. Grand’s quote is only valid if one considers stuff as energy and matter from a chaotic universe. But there is another kind of stuff that definition does not account for.

Our language has reached the limit of being capable of discussing these topics with any hope of moving forward. We literally need new words to describe differentiate between different types of stuff.

Stuff is typically considered a thing.

Things are typically considered physical items of energy and matter.

Then what is Information?
A process of forming immaterial thought into a material representation.

Is that a thing? Is that stuff? Can we touch or hold a thought?

If we cannot, then thoughtful information is not a thing. It is not stuff. It would be a no-thing. No-Stuff.

Therefor, IF we are beings of codified information, THEN we made of no-thing… and no stuff is the stuff we are made of. And as we exist, and continue to think and codify information, we become more no-thing than the no-thing that we were made of.

That’s really something when you think about it.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

The Wave

Much misunderstood, even by the scientists who observe them.

There is no wave beyond the mathematics used to describe potential. The mathematics are the wave. It’s a description of an observation. But it is not the reality.

LuckyGuy's avatar

My answer to this would have been different had you asked before my prostate surgery. Now I realize I am merely a thermodynamic machine specialized in the production and delivery of a payload of genetic material to a fertile receptor. All the other functions: intake, locomotion, inhalation, expiration, etc., are to maintain the health and dissemination of the payload. For the months I was incontinent, I was a machine with the express purpose of controlled production and targeted elimination of urine.

I was not a happy camper.

ucme's avatar

We are the world, we are the children, we are the ones who make a brighter day, so lets start giving…

Jaxk's avatar

I’m not sure about the science behind it but I’ve been told I’m full of shit many times.

Berserker's avatar

They’re us. We’re them.
You know Makumba? Voodoo. My grandaddy was a priest in Trinidad, and he used to tell us, when there is no more room in Hell, the Dead shall walk the Earth.

…sorry.

Cool question bro, but way over my head haha.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Information is the only “no-thing” capable of defeating chaos.

That brand new Camaro begins to decay before it even rolls off the assembly line.

We use codified information to battle the chaos. We write code like “wash car, wax car, replace fender, fix rip in seat, replace tail light…”

This could go on and on as long as there was someone available to keep authoring code to battle chaos. A thousand years would pass and the Camaro, in theory, could look as new as the day it was delivered. And although the entire car had been replaced, not one item the same as when built, the essence of that Camaro would still be intact.

DNA does the same with our bodies. Not one cell exists from seven years ago. We are completely different physical makeup. Only the continued authoring of information assures that our essence remains intact. We die when the telles do the run stop dance.

Coloma's avatar

^^^ Tolle 101

serenade's avatar

Give up all questions except one: ‘Who am I?’ After all, the only fact you are sure of is that you are. The ‘I am’ is certain. The ‘I am this’ is not. Struggle to find out what you are in reality.

To know what you are, you must first investigate and know what you are not.

Discover all that you are not—body, feelings thoughts, time, space, this or that— nothing, concrete or abstract, which you perceive can be you. The very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive.

The clearer you understand on the level of mind you can be described in negative terms only, the quicker will you come to the end of your search and realise that you are the limitless being.

-Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

I Am That

tinyfaery's avatar

A slave to the body and all that affects it.

Berserker's avatar

Nothing lasts forever but WillWorkForChocolaaaaate…

gondwanalon's avatar

We are fools who navigate our lives thinking that we understand reality. Our tiny brains and feeble senses lie to us constantly leading of to see the real world in simplified terms that we can relate to. This picture of the world is merely a facade of reality that we dare not or can not deviate form. To do so world mean that we are no longer who we are. Because we are like blind mole rats who know only our own misfortune.

Coloma's avatar

@gondwanalon Well..that’s uplifting, let us all run like Lemmings to the sea. Splash, gag, flounder, sink! lol

Dutchess_III's avatar

We are great apes who think we’re important.

drhat77's avatar

We’re a happy accident that stumbled ass backwards into self awareness, and has been using that knowledge ever since to bludgeon our rivals in increasingly creative ways.

jonsblond's avatar

We are the champions, my friends.

ETpro's avatar

Great answers to all. I am NOT going to interfere with how this question’s answers are progressing.

Nibulnod's avatar

We are one of many, many ways for DNA to reproduce itself. We are the community of that species and mostly others – microbes in our gut, on our skin – living usually in harmony.

ETpro's avatar

@Nibulnod Welcome to Fluther and thanks for adding an excellent point. Isn’t it interesting to contemplate how different the world model of gut bacteria worried about Brownian motion would be entirely different from the world model their host uses to survive?

ninjacolin's avatar

We are the deep and the shallow limit of the presently possible.

gailcalled's avatar

We are the only creatures extant with the ability to mix metaphors.

ninjacolin's avatar

“Do you want to see the real universe? I mean the REAL universe. Turn on your television to a static noise channel. There it is. That’s the real universe. Not an analogy. Not a metaphor. That is the real universe as it really exists.”

So is the TV you’re watching, the radio you’re playing and the you that’s asking the question in the first place. It’s all real and we’re a necessary part of it. No metaphors required. :)

gailcalled's avatar

^^ Several people above you have already quoted Steve Grand, with attribution.

ninjacolin's avatar

I was talking to @RealEyesRealizeRealLies. Forgot to put his name. I was agreeing in a disagreeing sort of way.

gailcalled's avatar

^^ That clears things up.

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

@ninjacolin was quoting me @gailcalled. Not Grand.

@ninjacolin “So is the TV you’re watching, the radio you’re playing and the you that’s asking the question in the first place. It’s all real and we’re a necessary part of it. No metaphors required. :)”

All the items you list are created from information. They all have a code which predetermined their existence before they existed in reality. Without the code, they would not exist. That’s what makes them specifically distinct from the codeless unformed chaotic potential of the “REAL universe”.

The code can be considered a metaphor. It describes the thing before the thing is made. Codes always represent something other than themselves. The static of the universe only represents itself, and nothing more. Huge difference between code and chaos. About the same difference as there is between God and Satan.

ETpro's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Aha. I see what singularity you were talking about in the thread on The Singularity. Let me just explain that “These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.”

gondwanalon's avatar

Our human bodies contains over a thousand times more microbial cells/organisms (bacteria, fungi, viruses, protozoa, etc) than the number of our own body’s total cells. Therefore we are not merely human, we are something else. We are more like big bags of microbes. Most of us waddling through our lives totally oblivious to our true and bizarre makeup.

ETpro's avatar

@gondwanalon Freeloading bastards. If I couldn’t live without them, I would.

SABOTEUR's avatar

That which habitually intellectualizes.

ETpro's avatar

@SABOTEUR There’s a kernel of truth in there, but an awfully large collection of exceptions to that rule.

SABOTEUR's avatar

@ETpro Would you prefer that which experiences, but chooses to experience through intellectualization?

ETpro's avatar

@SABOTEUR I have heard it put as “That which is aware of being aware.” Pretty good, but do dolphins, prairie dogs, and humboldt squid experience the same? I am sure I don’t know.

drhat77's avatar

@SABOTEUR @ETpro that which habitually rationalizes is more like it

SABOTEUR's avatar

@drhat77 I concur.
@ETpro If we are that which habitually rationalizes, I AM not sure rationalization will ever allow us to arrive upon an answer you would find acceptable, though the process of inquiry may offer you hours of interesting (and endless) discussion and debate.

drhat77's avatar

@SABOTEUR hence this lively thread

SABOTEUR's avatar

@ETpro It has been said that maintaining the “I don’t know” mind is probably better able to address this issue than the “give me a definitive answer” mind.

SABOTEUR's avatar

What’s of greater interest to me is the intent behind the question, as we’ve undoubtedly submitted no response the OP hasn’t heard, discussed and debated before.

I’m therefore somewhat amused that this very process of inquiry suggests my response is closer to the target than the OP is willing to admit.

Quite understandable, of course.

ninjacolin's avatar

We are the ones asking all the questions… ?

ETpro's avatar

@SABOTEUR So then how could I possibly know that? :-)

Actually, I learn quite a bit from questions like this. For instance, @drhat77‘s “that which rationalizes” is a great descriptive and one I had not heard. I think lots of lifeforms are aware of being aware. But if you’re suggesting I ask questions like this for the sheer joy of the discussion, you are absolutely right. And I’m sure that has something to do with why so many in this thread love to answer such questions as well.

@ninjacolin It is often the questions rather than attempts at answers that lead to the most interesting realizations.

SABOTEUR's avatar

@ETpro How could you possibly know what?

ETpro's avatar

@SABOTEUR If, ”...maintaining the “I don’t know” mind…” is a superior position for addressing the unknown, how is it possible to know that while maintaining the “I don’t know” mind?

SABOTEUR's avatar

(Smiling) I never suggested it was a “superior” position, but the question is valid nonetheless. Those who propose such a theory suggest the answer you seek cannot be obtained through rationalization. One must simply acquire and maintain the “I don’t know mind” and allow the answer to reveal itself.

This is a bad analogy, but attempting to define who you are without simply experiencing or being who you are is like trying to define the taste of an apple to someone without encouraging them of the necessity to simply take a bite.

SABOTEUR's avatar

I think the stumbling point from my perspective is people confuse intellect with knowledge.

Experience is knowledge.

One doesn’t know how to drive a car through studying a driving manual. One certainly applies what one obtains from the manual (intellect), but one actually learns how to drive through driving (experience).

But then there’s the argument that one doesn’t have to get hit by a car to “know” they shouldn’t walk in traffic.

Not really.

One intellectually understands the possible consequence of walking in traffic. One knows not to walk in traffic when he experiences being hit by a car.

ETpro's avatar

@SABOTEUR Very well said. Thanks.

Berserker's avatar

We are VIKINGS! Or at least I am. In my head.

ETpro's avatar

@Symbeline You’ve been a Viking all this time, and you still have a head?

Berserker's avatar

Yes. Vikings don’t lose their heads, they make other people lose their heads, don’t y’know.

ETpro's avatar

@Symbeline That’s how everyone goes into war. It isn’t how everyone comes out of war. :-)

Berserker's avatar

Vikings do. :D

ETpro's avatar

@Symbeline Oh yeah. The only ones I’ve seen around lately are the faux ones doing commercials for Capital One.

Berserker's avatar

LOl, I think I saw that dude from the Wunderbar commercials in there. XD

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