How much of the Constitution must we ignore in order to defend it?

This is the same sort of question, and the same sort of paradox, that was used by the US Army during the war in Viet Nam. Some Army major (I am not sure who) said “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.”

So it is here – sure, we’re saving the US from terrorism, maybe, possibly, if you listen to the government, but what’s left to save?

Before I answer this I would like to ask you how, @ETpro, has this impacted your life on a personal level? How has our nation becoming such a horrid place to live changed your day to day routine?

I wish I had a great answer for your great question. The bottom line is… We the people keep electing empty suits that sell us out to corporations…. Every… Single… Time… It’s to the point where I am of the school that a revolution may be necessary. I find loyal republocrats amusing and a little sad. They throw stones at each other bitterly as their candidates are all owned by the same corporations.

That’s the irony I suppose. I didn’t vote for Bush, nor did I vote for Obama. I just couldn’t. I find them to be useless to me and the needs of my country. I think if more Americans think along the lines of what’s really best for everyone they (or we) would start voting 3rd party regularly.

Say there’s a family with 2 cars. Years ago they ran decent and so they acquired a lot of brand loyalty. Now they’re old and don’t really take folks where they want to go. Instead of being loyal to a derelict, why not get a new car? No, lets fight over which rusty heap is better! In the same way, all the republocrats do is cry about who is worse well you know what? They’re both right! They are both useless and I firmly believe that anyone that can be more loyal to their political party than the nation itself is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

@DWW No one wants to waste their vote on3rd party due to lack of solidarity & organization.

You also have to take in to consideration that a third party is just as likely to be corporately owned and controlled as the other two.

Money is not speech and removing basic rights given to us in the constitution does not make a citizen more free..in a attempt to make it more palatable they had the nerve to name this abomination of a law the patriot act ,it is the single most un patriotic US law in existance.

@KNOWITALL @Blondesjon You bring up good points but may I just say that you can still vote for whomever you want only you’ll be doing so without endorsing the republocrats. It’s really a win, win scenario for the voter who wants to be heard but at the same time wants to make a stand about their political unhappiness. I know folks from both parties that do that. They left their main party but they still vote the way they always did for the most part. They just have a clearer conscience while doing it. Some people take a stand in big ways, some smaller but I’ll tell you what, it’s better than doing nothing.

I awoke one morning to find no sky. I searched and called yet heard no answer. Kicking the dirt bewildered, I fluffed a cloud. There it was! The sky, at my feet. It had fallen unnoticed.

The Post Office is not “required” by the Constitution. You never tire of misrepresentation, do you?

The actual language of Section 8, “Powers of Congress” reads in part:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

& etc.

In other words, the Post Office is “provided for” in the Constitution. The Congress has the power to levy funds “to establish” the Post Offices, but there is no “requirement” for the Post Office. (Certainly no requirement for “The US Postal Service” as it currently exists.)

Perhaps next you would like to make the case that we are required to borrow money?

@elbanditoroso Yes, I recall that. Very similar in concept.

@Blondesjon As special interest money has come to dominate politics, it has affected my life profoundly. It led to deregulation that resulted in 2 Savings and Loan crises both requiring taxpayer bailouts. It’s led to a slow but steady erosion of the middle class over the past 30 years, with wealth disparity now being as bad as it was in the late 1920s when the ade of the robber barons and rampant highly-leveraged Wall Street speculation led to the Great Depression. We are still digging out of the Great Recession of 2007–2009, yet corporate money has ensured that too big to fail and too big to jail remain the order of the day for the Banksters.

Add to this the knowledge of what a guy like Nixon would do with the power presidents now have. He ordered the FBI to compile secret dossiers on his “enemies list” of political opponents and journalists who he felt slighted him. He gave the same instructions to the IRS, ordering that they investigate all his “enemies list” targets and find some way to get them on tax fraud. What would he have done with the power to just make someone vanish off the streets never to be seen or heard from again? I hope you can see how that might impact all of us.

@DWW25921 \ You may be right that voting 3rd party at lest voices disapproval of the status quo. But clearly, so long as money rules in politics, those with it will just buy whatever party seems poised to win.

@KNOWITALL Yeah, I agree with @Blondesjon that third party voting probably won’t solve the problem.

@1TubeGuru Indeed. There are moves afoot to amend the Constitution to explicitly state that money is not speech and corporations are not people, but that seems rather pointless when Justices clearly read what they want to see in the document anyway. And I totally agree with your analysis of the Orwellian name, “The Patriot Act”.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies That’s a fantastic quote. It’s your own writing, isn’t it.

@CWOTUS Thanks for calling me on that. You are quite correct, it’s an enumerated power of Congress to establish postal service, not a requirement. I haven’t heard any rational explanation for Congress’ attempts to eliminate the postal service, and I can think of plenty of reasons it should be preserved. But it isn’t properly part of the question regarding disregard of the Constitution.

I’ll give you a rather simple answer here: I don’t know of too many people who support the entire U.S Constitution, whether they’re conservative, libertarian, liberal, moderate or progressive. Rather what happens is those of either a certain political persuation, or those with a strong opinion on a particular issue, will tend to cherry pick the Constitution to support their stances on an issue.

Let’s face it, many Americans already threw the Constitution out the window when they openly supported unreasonable searches and seizures pertaining to the war on drugs throughout the 80’s and 90’s. Many Americans have ditched the Eighth Amendment in relation to how our prisoners and other detainees are treated. Don’t even get me started on the First, Second and Tenth Amendments.

How many Americans truly support the entire Constitution? Here’s a better question yet: How many Americans understand what each Amendment really means? I’m sure that many Americans will rely on their favorite politicians to translate my latter question for them. Is that smart though? I doubt it.

@Paradox25 You bring up a good point. I grew up in our school system and I honestly don’t remember learning anything about the amendments. If I wanted to know something I’d look it up myself or watch TV. That’s kind of sad. The only thing I remember learning in school was cursive in 4th grade. After that I just kind of kept my head down and was shuffled through to graduation. Although I’m not of the school that the government owes me anything I can’t help but feel kind of cheated.

@ETpro Sometimes taking a leap of faith means that you trust who you’re putting in to office and hope that they will do the right thing. If we are betrayed, it is our responsibility to pull the weeds and replant. The key is, never loose hope in your country because you’re disillusioned by the empty suits that run it.

@Paradox25 Very true.

@DWW25921 Yes, that is certainly worth trying.

@ETpro . . . Sure, but I want specific disruptions it has caused in your day to day life. I understand the wide ranging implications of the way this country does business. I agree that it’s a bad thing, but, all of the hand wringing and doom crying associated with it makes it seem like the world is about to come to a screeching halt. I’ve lived forty-two years and have yet to experience any personal hardships.

It seems to me that we all know what the problem is. Maybe it’s time to do something about it instead of pontificating on it?

What do we do? Well, that’s another question and none of my concern. Like I said, my life keeps on rolling along the same old way and I’ve been pretty satisfied with it.

@Blondesjon Are you just trying to be argumentative for some reason. I run a small business. The Great Recession almost bankrupted me. But even if it had had no personal impact on me, are you suggesting we should not worry about our nation becoming a police state till the hobnailed boot kicks down our own door? How did that head-in-the-sand strategy work out for the people of Germany as the Nazi Party was rising to power?

@ETpro . . . How did that head-in-the-sand strategy work out for the people of Germany as the Nazi Party was rising to power?

Comments like that are what I am talking about. I’m sick to death of folks comparing modern America to Nazi Germany. It’s fear mongering and a gross exaggeration. We are not becoming a police state. If we are I have yet to see it anywhere except on the Internet. The Internet is also where I see folks comparing America to Nazi Germany, trying to explain to me that Obama is a Muslim, and screaming about how are guns our going to be taken away.

As far as your small business woes go, well, that’s the risk you take when you decide to run your own business.

@Blondesjon Let’s drop this discussion. Good day.

@Blondesjon I hate to say it… Aah, no I don’t. I think you’re living in a fantasy world and you aren’t considering all the facts on the table. Obama has infiltrated our schools where our children are regularly encouraged to literally sing praises to Obama, not unlike Hitler. Obama consistently bypasses representatives and ruling officials, not unlike Hitler. Obama, upon asking our military if they would fire upon US citizens and getting the “wrong” answer is literally raising a domestic army, not unlike Hitler. Obama will keep our troops away from home so they can’t defend their own…

Obama has lied consistently about the state of world affairs and openly defied the Constitutional limits of his office on numerous occasions. Does it not concern you at all that Russia and China are, as I type, are preforming joint military operations to prepare to stop Obama from arming our own enemies? What of the race baiting and other deflection tactics to take our attention away from the government allowing our ambassador to be slaughtered and to pass illegal detainment laws?

The only reason why we are interested in Syria and Iran is they both want to trade their oil on a different currency than ours. The US dollar is the international trade currency for oil and we’ve gone to war before over this. If they trade with another currency our dollar will collapse because it’s the only real commodity holding it up right now. China and Russia want in on this game too.

You told @ETpro that he was “fear mongering and a gross exaggeration”... Seriously? This is reality. This is fact. We are going to war and it’s not going to be a bloody nose this time. You, Blondy, need to get your head out of the sand and start to face reality. Stocking up on some food wouldn’t hurt either.

As odd as it makes me feel to be on the same side of an issue with @ETpro – and believe me, it always feels odd (even more than those days when I agree with any German anime-people) – on this topic, to the extent that the opinion is “we have too much government and it’s taking too much control and interest in our lives and it’s acting outside of the constitution” I agree.

I also agree with you, @Blondesjon, that “my life has been rolling along pretty nicely”, and that’s certainly a good feeling if I can keep myself from looking out my windows and seeing what’s actually going down in the neighborhood, in the town and state where I live, in the nation and in the world, much of it controlled by the US government in ways that it should not, and never should have. And yet, it’s “business as usual”.

- Homeland Security
– PATRIOT act
– National Defense Authorization Act
– NSA spying on American citizens without cause or warrant
– widespread militarization of police
– War on Drugs
– drug-pretext asset forfeiture, where citizens’ cash and goods can be seized “because they might be used” to purchase or distribute drugs
– War on Terror, with ad hoc roadblocks set up for what I call “security kabuki”, or “security theater” – and make no mistake, it’s a war being fought on our own territory, sapping our liberties to “protect us”. In Rahm Emmanuel’s advice to the President, he’s not going to let a good crisis go to waste.
– gun control, which really doesn’t control guns very well, but is very effective “people control”

I’m tired of it all. We have too much

@DWW25921 I think you better let me do my own arguing. Yes, I think we face a serious threat to liberty, but daily singing of praise to Obama? Umm, not really.

What @CWOTUS lists is my real concern.

@ETpro It’s late and I’m going to bed. It’s all over youtube. I just don’t feel like looking it up. :)

@DWW25921 YouTube also proves that 9/11 was an inside job carried out secretly by the Bush Administration, forgetting the fact they failed miserably at nearly everything else they attempted. YouTube establishes conclusively that alien invaders called the lizard people have a station on the dark side of the moon, and that they shape shift and have now infiltrated all levels of the US Government. Obama isn’t just a Kenyan, Muslim, traitor according to YouTube conspiracy theorists, he’s a space alien lizard and the anti-christ. Have a great evening. But don’t offer YouTube as proof of anything without a specific URL, because so much posted there is idiocy.

@ETpro . . . now do you understand why my hackles get raised when folks start getting all glenn beck about shit?

@ETpro Your answer made me laugh… Yeah… There’s some wacky stuff on there. What I meant was actual children singing these songs are easy to find. I need to start being more specific when I type vague generalizations… Turns out I have to explain myself a lot. Anyway, here’s an example. There are LOTS more… This is just plain scarey…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFC1qFCgyA

@CWOTUS . . . The war on drugs is a joke. I’ve always assumed that the NSA was watching me anyway, and just exactly where is all this police militarization?

One day the government might ban assault weapons but American’s guns aren’t going anywhere. The rest of it? It hasn’t done jack-shit to change my life one bit. Again it just seems like a bunch of hand-wringing and fear mongering. Five minutes on Facebook or YouTube probably scares the shit out of the average American.

I’m not saying our government is innocent by any means. I’m just saying it’s not as bad as the gloom and doom crowd are claiming and never will be.

@DWW25921 See if you can find any evidence that is actually a public school and not either a special interest group of kids or a deliberate fake video bringing some far right kids together and coaching them to make a video to inspire hate. Frankly, without any proof, my guess is it’s just one more of the long chain of fake videos the far right has cranked out since Obama first got elected.

@ETpro Here’s just a few samples. They’re easy to find and they are everywhere!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ettl3zfLWus&list=PLC0B1FF5A782697BD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPQdgJ59Ik8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fjj6a8aBNU

Anyway, I chose those videos carefully. The first one seems innocent enough but propaganda usually does. I would bet the teacher never made a song for Bush…

The second one is Fox news. I know a lot of people don’t like Fox but hey, it hit the news.

The last one is an international news agency that picked up the story. This sort of thing really doesn’t get a lot of “in house” press… Gee… I wonder why?

Anyway, like I said there are lots of examples. It only took me about 5 or 6 minutes to find these. There are a bunch of news articles floating around too…

Ooh, I’m sure it’s perfectly harmless. What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-5335819-503544.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/1/houston-elementary-school-assembly-sings-ode-obama/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/02/10/hes-our-man-yes-we-can-shocking-obama-song-taught-to-kindergarteners-at-tx-school/

http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-song-school-children-praise-pres-viral-video-lyrics

I would site some more but frankly I just don’t feel like it. Besides, you get the point. You can either do your own research at this point or not, it’s up to you. Have a great night, I’m off to bed.

Thanks. If I cite that many proving Bush was behind 9/11 or lizard people rule America, will that do?

@ETpro Whatever floats your boat bud. I think that’s a different question though.