What would the world be like with no military?

People just form their own militias.

@JLeslie So basically we’d all have to fight our own battles for food or water, interesting.

We’d invent them, just like in “a world with no religion” we’d invent several of those, too.

And then, according to Rule 34, we’d invent sexual versions of it / them, as well.

I’m surprised and dismayed by the number of jellies who act like the people who serve in our military are dumb patriots. Actually it’s one of the most insulting things I’ve heard here, completely dismissing the sacrifices they make to protect these same people bashing them.

I am not that fond of people in general and being here on fluther is certainly not raising my opinion of humans in general right this second. :(

Without a military or some other police force of the government, the government loses its authority to enforce laws.

In a just country, laws are agreements in society to give people some security and predictability. And that is enforced by who has a monopoly on violence. Without a military, the interactions of nations will devolve into chaos.

It would be chaotic and it would encourage the rise of warlords and a violent reality where who ever had the most weapons could control a given area,

It will never happen. people – human nature – is to group together and be tribal. That’s the way that people are made.

There would be nothing that normal police could not handle.
And no, militias do not count, as they are military by definition, as are hordes á la Ghengis Khan.

@ragingloli May I ask why you think that?

I think the world would soldier on giggles

Whomever was in possession of the largest genitalia would win.

@KNOWITALL as far as people thinking soldiers are dumb patriots, I find that to be a right wing persepctive that is not accurate. What I mean is, the interpretation of what is said is innacurate. My neighbor served in the military and one day we were having a conversation about recruitment. We discussed the military going into high schools and colleges to recruit, and I said I don’t like that it is being done in high schools, she changed my mind on that. We also talked about recruting being done in low income areas. She said something, and I said, “poor does not mean stupid.” She was a little surprised I said that and, said to me, that is how it always sounds to me. That when people talk about the military going after the poor and taking advantage of the poor and their circumstance, that it is the same as calling the poor stupid. Well, she is completely wrong, I worry about the poor being preyed on, but I don’t think they are stupid, I think they have limited options.

So, I wonder if you are thinking the same thing, that when we talk about soldiers you are interpreting it somehow to mean we are saying they are stupid, when we never really said that. I’m not accusing you, just giving you something to think about. I’m sure there is a person or two who does call them dumb patriots, but the majority I don’t think are saying that.

@KNOWITALL: “I’m surprised and dismayed by the number of jellies who act like the people who serve in our military are dumb patriots. Actually it’s one of the most insulting things I’ve heard here, completely dismissing the sacrifices they make to protect these same people bashing them.”

While this is probably appropriate for a slightly-different question, let me try to calm your fears that fluther is filled with awful people. Consider that some people might feel that the U.S. military by and large doesn’t serve to protect the citizens of the U.S. If this is the case, then they may not hold the U.S. military as something benevolent. And since they might hold this opinion about the military, they might see the system as exploitative of a certain class of citizens.

Now, since the U.S. military history is clear, it’s difficult to view people joining the military without feeling bad for those who have been culturally and/or economically filtered into the military. And there are those who may join the military for other, less-necessary reasons. In those cases it would be difficult to resolve the apparent conflict between the nature of the U.S. military and their desire to join.

Let me be clear – the people who might look at the military this way in no way feel that the individual soldiers in the military are the “bad guys” here. When people argue against the invasion of Iraq, for example, it isn’t targeted at the soldiers, which are not part of the decision. It’s targeted at the U.S. government.

So, I hope this eases your concerns a little bit about some of the fluther people who might seem less than supportive of the military as a reasonable career move.

“The pioneers of a warless world are the young men who refuse military service.”

@JLeslie There are poor kids who choose the military instead of college for benefits, especially if they have families who need quick money. Additionally people having children young seem to find this a good alternative to working for minimum wage. It’s sometimes a smart survival move.

@tom_g I’m not convinced after a few conversations and it shames me. I’ve seen soldiers cry telling me of situations they’ve faced in Afghanistan with the kids. None of them are stupid, a lot are now in law enforcement or in govt positions. In my area, being anti-military is paramount to treason.

The whole world? That would be a mess. We’d be about 1000 years behind the times.

@KNOWITALL Exactly.

I doubt it would end well…

I don’t like all the anti-military comments here either, @KNOWITALL. Murderers-for-hire, baby killers, etc. It’s ridiculous. I also don’t like the other extreme – the belief that they’re all heroes. They’re not evil, but they aren’t saints either. They’re human beings and that is simply their career choice. I don’t thank soldiers for their service when I see them at the grocery store like everyone else down here does, but I don’t glare at them either.

I have to admit that, though I don’t have overwhelmingly positive (or negative) thoughts about soldiers, I have a soft spot for the “surprise return home” videos on YouTube. Wives, kids, and dogs so excited to see their loved one again for the first time in awhile. It’s heartwarming.

Me too @livelaughlove21. This one is the best I’ve ever seen.

The thugs would rule with an iron fist.

@YARNLADY Would?

@rojo There are no thugs in charge in my neighborhood, we can freely walk to the bank and home, a mile away, with zero fear. This is true in the majority of this country.

There are no thugs in your neighborhood because of police (sorta military) presence.

@livelaughlove21 I do tend to make them heroes, because they risk all for us, but that’s my experience and due to my family experience. I thank them for their service all the time, it feels weird but they seem to like it.

But you’re right they are humans, some do extraordinary things and some do evil things. I think that’s why it bothers me when people lump them all in together.

I saw that video of Gitmo torture, I saw the soldier throwing a puppy off a cliff in Afghanistan, so it’s not like simple hero worship either.

The bullies would rule the world. Oh, wait. That happens even if we have armies. I’ll re-think.

On that day that there was no military, it would be great.

The next day, anybody who wanted your house, your money, your booty, etc. would organize one and move to take it.

Then, you would organize one to stop them. Etc, etc. etc.

Just because you hate it ,does not mean you can change the human nature.

The police can’t control things the way they are now. Without the military, it would be anarchy.

I think the real question is not what if there were no military but what if we allocated our resources differently? What if, instead of sending warships to the Mediterranean and Persian gulf we sent medical ships? What if instead of spending upwards of a half billion dollars a week to “send a message” to Assad we put that cash into providing housing and food for the umpteen million refugees in the adjoining countries? What if instead of increasing funding to the “Defense Department” we used the funds to rebuild our own infrastructure and provide jobs to our own people? What if, they gave a war and nobody came?

@filmfann police are just another kind of military and the way things are going, they will be the same kind within a few short years.

At the risk of making you mad, and I hope I do not, I have a problem with the way you percieve the attitude of some of the more liberal members of Fluther.
Personally, I do not hold members of the military in contempt, but neither do I hold them in very high regard. They are doing a job, one that they have chosen to do, just like the person that serves me coffee at McDonalds. I do not see why you feel I owe them any more of a debt of gratitude than I do Melissa who does that.
I do not believe that they are making any great “sacrifice”, at least not one that they have not chosen to do for their own personal gratification, any more than I believe that by going over to Iraq they are “protecting my way of life”. I am sorry.
I do not believe the government propaganda to that effect and in many ways I feel sorry that they have fallen for that patriotic crap. They are not doing me any favors by conducting a war to satisfy the misguided whims of some dumbass like Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld.
If they choose to perceive it in that manner, fine. But why should I be expected to feel like I owe them a debt of gratitude because they chose to join the military and do whatever they were ordered to do with little or no regard as to whether or not is was morally correct?
I apologize but in my opinion serving in the military does not give you some kind of pass to kill and maim without consequences. If you can do so, come home after being a part of that and have a clear concience, then there are much greater issues that you have suppressed and my approval is not going to grant you absolution. For that you have to look to your own god. You still have to justify yourself to yourself and service in an immoral conflict such as those in Afghanistan, Iraq or for that matter Vietnam does not make you a good person or one worthy of emulating, nor does it make you better than those who choose to sit out these wars of empire. As to your comment about “sacrificing” I fail to see where the sacrifice is. They chose to go, to believe the pap that they were fed, and to justify their aggression by the claims of making their loved ones safer without giving any great thought to what they were doing. They were not forced into it like the vast majority of those who served in Vietnam. To my way of thinking, this was not a sacrifice to them but a crusade to retake the holy land. Nothing but the belief in a series of lies reinforced by the implantation of fears and terrors designed by those in power to coerce the ignorant masses into doing their dirty work.
Do I think they are dumb? Emphatically NO!
Do I think they were duped? Emphatically, YES!
Do I think they will ever admit it, SADLY, no.

@rojo Never mad, just a completely different way of thinking, but it is hurtful and offensive to me. I’ve met some really smart people in the service who are in no way, shape or form, duped into anything.

I know a 80 yr old Sargeant Major who is retired that made so many hard decisions he has a permanent nervous disorder, can barely sleep, and would still fight to the death for me, you or any of us, to his last breath to keep us safe. But to hear that means nothing to you, that you think he’s some kind of dupe, makes me embarassed for you.

@KNOWITALL Why do you use duped? I think some are duped and naive, but many are making the logical choice in their situation, their circumstance regarding family status, income, etc as you pointed out above and I agreed with. Many liberals are saying the exact same thing. Basically, the poor are more likely to go into the service than a person who has more financial resources, so in that way the poor are more likely to be risking their life in our military than any other. Sure we also have educated, wealthy kids who volunteer, it isn’t like our entire military is made up of kids from the skids. Stupid and smart have nothing to do with it, tose are right wing words not liberal ones. Right wing seems to hear those words when they are never said by the liberals. Again, never and all are string words, I am sure there is one exception here and there.

Is bravery and sacrifice such an anathema to Americans now? Are we so soft in our cushy little homes in suburbia that we forget third world countries still have pervasive rape, murder and torture? Little children still die hungry and homeless?

Just like everyone scared to death of Syria and Obama taking action, are we so afraid of getting ourselves hurt or in trouble that we allow evil dictators to gas people to death, and some not to death but permanently jacked up, that we’d allow it to continue with not a peep? To me, that is unfathomable. Like allowing Hitler-like dictators free rein across the Middle East because we’re frightened? That is not the brave pioneer spirit of MY America.

@JLeslie I use that word because rojo did.

Most police and military are Republican, fact.

@KNOWITALL Military generally feels the Republicans will always give the military more funds. Higher salaries, more benefits, more money in general, so they tend to vote republican. Same with most people who workin pharmacetical companies are Republicans. The republicans tend to allow phrama to make a shitload of money. It is self preserving to vote in the republicans. Sure, many of the men and women in the military were already republicans for other reasons, if many of them are coming out of the poor bible belt and are white it makes sense they are Republican. Although, I don’t know how those stats really roll out, or if it is just an idea in our head that more southerners join the military and other stereotypes that might be untrue that I have in my head.

As far as Syria, my facebook is all lit up with republicans saying Obama is going to congress so he can blame the republicans. I think you would agree that is oretty annoying to hear. We all know if Obama took action without congress the republicans would go crazy. They will hate and be negative either way.

I am very torn about Syria. Do we go into countries when we see genocide? We didn’t during WWII, not really. A side benefit of beating Germany was stopping the slaughter that was going on by Hitler. Clinton does regret we did not do more in Rwanda. I guess we did help in Kosovo. When we went into Iraq I wanted to go to Afghanastan instead to save the women. Women treated horrifically in that country. Sadam who had been genocidal and his sons were disgusting, still was fairly secular in his leadership, women were educated, could wear western clothing, and he was at odds with Iran.

“Most police and military are Republican, fact.”
Another reason to utterly despise and spit on them.

I haven’t read all the responses and I try to stay out of political debates.
I just want to say that I have nothing but mad love and respect for military men and women who risk their lives on a daily basis for us.

@JLeslie So you didn’t hear about Saddam and his sons raping and mutilating women? Oh, wait, it was all about oil wasn’t it, no human rights issues, at least to liberals.

@ragingloli I hope when you need help, someone comes to your aid, or that you defend yourself or run quickly.

@Katniss Nice to hear, and I’m sure somewhere in the world there’s a starving soldier defending the helpless that appreciates that.

@KNOWITALL I said his sons were disgusting. There were definitely human rights issues in Iraq.

@JLeslie I know you did, but whether it’s Kosovo, Sudan or Iraq, or even Syria, are we supposed to sit back and watch another Holocaust?
You say you wanted to go to Afghanistan to help, but I know real life military heroes who not only went voluntarily, some died helping the same people you wanted to help.

Republicans WILL say something if Obama goes ahead without approval, because we’ve all taken so much flak over Bush’s ‘illegal war’, but he’d earn a hell of a lot of respect, too.

@KNOWITALL I honestly don’t know what I think about going in on humanitarian missions. My girly, Jewish, self, wants us to stop genocide, torture, oppression, around the world. But, plenty of countries have horrific things going on and we don’t help. We did not go into Europe to save the Jews and others killed during the holocaust, we went in because Germany threatened us. Hitler was taking over other countries and we did nothing, we were in isolationalist mode. If we had taken an early step maybe we would not be heroes of WWII, because no one would have known all that Hitler was capable of if he had been stopped. I’m not really stating my opinion here, just thinking it through.

Is it our job to try to stop injustice around the world and spread democracy? I don’t know, a lot of times when we interfere it does not work out how we planned it.

Obama backed himself into a corner by drawing a line, so it seems like we have to do something or our threats seem empty. I have not kept up with the Syria situation, I am hoping another country can step in and let us save face somehow if we do nothing.

My facebook friends who are Muslim (modern Muslim) and who are from other parts of Asia (the continent) seem to not want Obama to interfere. They are American just to be clear. They think in the end it won’t help and causes more harm. Some of them have lived through conflict.

@JLeslie I hope you know by now that I respect you and your opinions, I know you’re a thinker, which is what I try to do before spouting off. :)

Basically, it is up to our government whether we go into areas that are in conflict. All I can do is support my Commander-In-Chief and our military personnel who follow orders they are given by the leader of our country. Because of my religious beliefs, I also pray that God guides him as he makes decisions that affect all of us and a lot of others.

I don’t think you and I are privy to a lot of information needed to make those decisions due to security issues, so without the full picture, I can honestly say that I don’t know if it’s our job to stop injustice, but my heart tells me that it is our business. With great power comes great responsiblity. But Obama’s not asking us and neither did Bush.

@KNOWITALL I think Bush did seek the support of the country. Obama might be also, ai am not singling out Bush, I just am not up to date on the Syria situation. I have not been watching politics mich at all, very out of the loop, I have no idea what the media is saying, and only see bits on my facebook and here. Bish and the people around Bush were happy to the let public be afraid of weapons of mass destruction and the visualization of 9/11 helped their cause. I once saw Bush in an interview towards the end of his administration and the words came right out of his mouth that 9/11 had nothing to do with Sadam and Iraq (I give him credit for that, a lot of liberal say he was an idiot for beieving they were related) but plenty of republicans still believe they were related to this day. That believed relationship helped Bush get public support for Iraq.

When we were about to go into Iraq I basically said the same thing you did about the average person not being privy to all the intelligence information and we probably have to trust out government knows more than we do. Now I don’t know what I think.

I support our troops, but I also want to believe if they felt in their soul a war or military action was wrong they would stand together in sme way to stop it. To challenge it, I wish some nazis would have challenged Hitler; defied Hitler. It isn’t simple of course, but I do feel we need to rely on people in the lower ranks to also call out when people in the higher ranks might be wrong.

@JLeslie It does seem that everyone is against our participating in Syria for a multitude of reasons, so I guess we’ll just watch more people die. I may not have voted for Obama, but I think he and Bush are too goodhearted to allow that.

Peace and thanks for the conversation. I appreciate your giving me facts and an opportunity to calm down, too. (I noticed- lol)

@KNOWITALL I also agree that I think Bush and Obama, and all Presidents for that matter, care about doing the right thing and are good hearted as you say. I think part of the problem with going into Syria is so many feel we went into Iraq without real justification, so now the world watches to see how agressive we will be over time. How much of a war monger the US is. We are the only country to ever use a nuclear bomb, we have gone into a country preemptively, from the outside I think our intent is questioned and from both inside and out we worry about results of interfering not being what we predict.

I’m glad you feel calmer. :)

@JLeslie Is it war-mongering if we help people who ask us for help?

Is it war-mongering to protect our interests and the interests of our allies?

Would it have been war-mongering to take out Hitler BEFORE he killed another million Jews? Or even David Koresh, before he raped another five little girls?

I’m not convinced that being LESS aggressive is the best move at this point in time.

I think we are trying to be low key aggressive. What exactly does Obama have in mind, anyway? He’s not planning to go in with troops and start bombing the country at random.

@Dutchess_III I understand it’s strategic military targets by drones.

Obama said ‘no new troops on the ground’ during his campaign, can’t blame the guy for trying to fulfill a few promises to his supporters right?! :) Franky, I think Obama has learned a lot while in office, and he’s evolving.

Well, I’m all for that! Go Obama!

@Dutchess_III I’m not going quite that far yet…lol, let’s see how we feel a couple years after Obamacare takes effect.

@KNOWITALL I guess it all depends on the persons perspective is my point. If we had stopped Hitler before he killed so many Jews and millions of other, the world probably never would have known what extent he would go to. Some people might have seen us as interferring in Europe when it is was none of our business. Again, just putting ideas out there, I am not stating my opinion. I am very conflicted about war (no pun intended). I do see it as a necessary evil, but dread it.

@JLeslie Same here, but I’m more the ‘going out in a blaze of glory’-type personality.

When it comes to the downtrodden and helpless and abused, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I turned my back.

Now that I’ve read where the discussion is going, particularly with regard to your reaction to various responses, @KNOWITALL, I think that maybe you wanted to ask a different question. Maybe you should ask that question more directly: “Do you support a US military intervention in Syria? Would you respect the President who gave such an order? Would you respect the people that executed such an order from the President?”

Those are very, very different questions from the one that you did ask, and it seems like those who get a follow-up response to their posts are being responded to as if this was the question they were answering. So… why not go ahead and ask that question.

If you ask the question, I can guarantee that my response wouldn’t be the one I gave to this question. (And I can pretty much guarantee that you won’t like it, either, but it will be as friendly and respectful as you should always expect from me.)

@CWOTUS I was raised by hippies and military, so I see both sides, but like with Westboro ‘Church’ protesting soldiers funerals, I come unhinged when I see blatant disrespect to our soldiers or military personnel. Maybe it’s a southern thing, or how I was raised, but I would not tolerate that anymore than I would elderly abuse or child abuse.

And of course, this is my Q, you can say whatever you want since conversations evolve, and I’ll try to read it and react respectfully if you choose to do so. But I may not like you anymore, not that that’s an issue really.

@KNOWITALL One thing you might want to consider is the Republican party has used the military as a way to fire up their base. Liberals and democrats are accused of not supporting the troops when that is simply not true. Being against Iraq is not synonomous with being against our men and women who fight for us, but the republicans tried hard to make that the case. Supporting our troops, the troops, the people who actually fight, should not be political sides. Questioning what actions the government chooses to take is a separate issue.

@JLeslie I think both sides do a little ‘using’ of their own parties for various reasons, but I get what you’re saying. :)

Sure, both sides. I think we as citizens need to see through the manipulation. Really listen to our fellow citizens and not the political and media bullshit.

@JLeslie Yep, Independents are being expected to rise dramatically next election actually. It could get interesting!!

@KNOWITALL I can agree with you 100% on the Westboro Christians. It is about respect for an individual.
AS for your other previous comments, there is some overlap but we are on opposite sides of this debate. I too know military and former military and most are decent people; some have serious mental problems from their service, some cope quite well. I also know some
A-holes. Being in the military does not make you one or the other, that is determined long before their enlistment.
As for the bravery and sacrifice. There are some very brave men and women, they were put into dangerous situations and did what they needed to in order to survive and help their fellow soldiers survive. I have no doubt, no argument about that. My point is why does someone who chooses to allow themselves to be put in situations like that on what I consider false pretexts think they deserve a pat on the back for it, let alone all the benefits and services they receive upon their return. My attitude is more of a “Well, I am glad you made it back alive, anyway” As for the sacrifice part, you already know my feelings toward the use of that word to describe their service.
As to your contention that we need to take out evil dictators, it begs the question which ones? Unfortunately we have a long track record of setting and propping them up if it suits the purposes of the wealthy and powerful. Which is usually coded as being “in our national interests” We either deal out or allow as much death and destruction as we try to end.
And the military serves as the jackboot of the political elite for enforcing their will. They will kill you for me and me for you if ordered.
Sure, let’s send in the military for humanitarian purposes. It appears to me that that is simply an excuse used to justify something we were going to do in the first place. This was painfully obvious with Bush/Cheney. How many reasons did they have to come up with to justify their little war. It sure seems odd that we only care about the pain and suffering of the civilian populations where we have “national interests” and the rest of the world is welcome to wipe each other off the map.

@rojo Well, at least we agree on Westboro! :)

I understand what you’re saying about the motivations of our government and mental illness or PTSD with the soldiers, but not the bravery & sacrifice.

I posit that it takes nads to sign up for tour after tour, a lot of people couldn’t handle being under fire and keep their sanity, let alone enough to help others instead of just yourself. I don’t know many military that would tell anyone they deserve a pat on the back, it’s their job and their duty (to them.) I say it’s more than a job to risk your life, but hey, we can differ on that. But not respecting them, and disrespecting them are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. The disrespet nauseates me.

You ask is it war mongering to help people who ask for our help? When we pick and choose who we will and will not help; yes it is.

You ask is it war-mongering to protect our interests and the interests of our allies? When our allies, many times, are the same kind of ruthless dictator you despise? Yes it is,
When your interests are things and you put things before people, Yes it is.
When the country that killed and maimed uncounted numbers using Agent Orange in Vietnam and shot untold numbers of radioactive depleted uranium bullets in Fallujah uses the use of chemical weapons as an excuse to attack, yes it is. When a country as powerful as the US refuses to sign a treaty outlawing the use of anti-personnel land mines then yes, we are warmongers.
And, the Hitler argument. No, it would not have been war mongering to take out Hitler, just as it would not to take out the main problem in any of these wars. The problem is a reluctance to specifically target heads of state even those at whom we are supposedly at war. Imagine what would have been the result if we had used the proper intel and focused the entire might of the US military on Hussein instead of that stupid “shock and awe” crap.

As for Koresh, how many people had to die in order to make an example out of him? He used to run, alone, along the backroads around their compound. He could have been arrested without incident if it had been in the national interest to instill fear into the populace in general and cultists in particular.

Okay, but that’s our government, it’s not like they ask us our opinions. I know we’ve done some bad stuff, I know we’ve armed regimes that we later were up against (so many times).

What is your solution? Treating our soldiers like shit doesn’t do anything to harm our narcissistic and forgetful government.

I never said we should treat our soldier with anything other than the respect an individual deserves.
But, neither should we glorify what they do and accord them special treatment.

@KNOWITALL . . . They do ask us for our opinions. It’s called voting.

@KNOWITALL In addition to voting, there are town meetings and opinion polls. Every elected official has offices and staff to take citizen input, and they do really listen.

We’d still need a world police as long as there are people breaking (international) law.