Is there anyone here able to post actual proof of a 'police state' in America?
If you can’t, perhaps you might show me a logical argument as to how we are now like Nazi Germany?
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Nazi Germany? They must not know anything about Nazi Germany. Are they referring to the NSA thing? Still they are out to lunch.
Rodney King? Treybon Martian, Betzy ross.
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” as to how we are now like Nazi Germany? ”
Hyperbole. The tool of those not capable of making reasoned arguments or showing evidence for their assertions
We are far from being anything like Nazi Germany and you know that people who say than know nothing about Nazi Germany
I don’t think anyone will show you a logical argument to that effect, or bring forth any evidence to support such assertions. We have some problems and some of them are big problems, but we have a long way to go before totalitarianism strikes.
@CWOTUS , , , Again . . . These are the norm? The media takes these stories and puts a positive spin on them to further the cause for Mother America?
How much proof do you need?
If you think some incident where nobody was arrested or harmed resembles Nazi Germany, I would recommend some reading.
I Will Bear Witness, 1933–1941 and 1942–1945 by Victor Klemperer give you a firsthand account.
@CWOTUS
A little more awful than those examples!
How do you think “Nazi Germany” got its start, hmm? By the time the concentration camps are being built, staffed and filled (and if you consider our prison population the relative equivalent, then we may have already arrived), then it could be too late.
If you don’t think this is how 1930s Germany was, then I suggest that some of you read In the Garden of Beasts, by Erik Larson, an account of the life and times of the American ambassador to Germany and his family during the 1930s. When the police can pretty much do as they want with few or no checks or repercussions, then we’re on that road.
Boston turned into a police state after the Marathon Bombing, there are pictures of police just busting into homes without any reason beyond “he might be here”. Then again, I understand why. Problem is, what’s to stop that from becoming the norm?
When the police can pretty much do as they want with few or no checks or repercussions, then we’re on that road.
They can’t. There are police on trial for abuses every day in the US.
@Mr_Paradox . . . Are they still kicking in doors in Boston?
@CWOTUS
Really?
I think the start in Germany was way beyond where we are at now. From bad to worse their and very quickly with no checks and balances and no press even intimating the press we have here.
Be on the alert, but real too!
Your question interested me as it’s an accusation I’ve made myself during conversations here and a variety of other places. I do believe that there is a trend of unnecessary force being used by cops. I actually googled it and 97m hits came up. Ok so like, wow! Anyway, I know what I believe and I honestly couldn’t care less if you do or not. I suppose that’s why I’m a Libertarian… I digress… Here’s the first one on the list.
http://reality-bytes.hubpages.com/hub/Do-we-live-in-a-Police-State-Is-the-United-States-under-Martial-Law
@Mr_Paradox That sort of thing, to a slightly lessor extent than Boston, goes on all the time in the US for very specific reasons. That is not like Nazi Germany. I have been in situations where there was a curfew after dark following hurricanes for days, once over a week. No one was allowed to be out. No driving, no walking on the streets. My sister lived in NYC after 9/11 and walking south of a certain street (I can’t remember the cut off) required showing ID or you were not allowed through. That went on for quite a while.
@CWOTUS As much as the prison system, especially the privatization of the prison system bothers me, and I do feel some populations are targeted more and wind up in prison, they still the majority of the time are doing illegal activites. The Jews, the people who helped the Jews, and the disabled who were murdered and imprisoned by the Nazis did nothing. There wasn’t even going through the motions of a trial. America is not trying to take over other countries, and we are not rounding up people to experiment on them and send them to ovens. There might be things that need fixing with our government and country, every so often we might see something that has a similarity to something that went on in Germany, but the US is not Nazi Germany.
Germany was just like the U.S. long before the S.H.T.F. there. We are not even close to the evil that took place in Germany yet.
I think the Jewish jellies among us, especially those of us with relatives who immigrated here before the war or who weren’t able to leave and were banished to and died in concentration camps, would be hesitant to compare the U.S.A. with Nazi Germany.
I’m not trying to convince anyone that “the USA is as bad as Nazi Germany was”, or for the same reasons. To answer your point about Jews, @JLeslie, by the time Germany started rounding them up to concentration camps they were very far along the path to the world war that they started. That wasn’t something that even the normally compliant Germans would have accepted from their government… until a long period of exposure to heavy propaganda painting them as “the cause of all our troubles”.
The question was about a “police state”, which I think we have started to enter. When it’s generally accepted police procedure to act as they did in Boston and Watertown, Massachusetts after the Boston Marathon bombing, when even small towns have SWAT teams – and use them for all kinds of situations that don’t even involve the use of “special weapons and tactics” that is their reason for being – when no-knock drug raids, often with shootings involved, have become as commonplace as they have been, then, yes, we’re in a “police state”.
Senate Bill 1070 in Arizona Article or Line 8.
If my memory serves me correctly…
@pleiades Care to expand? My memory skipped off back in ‘92 and still ain’t come home yet.
@CWOTUS When did this police state start happening in America? When the 9 little kids in Little Rock were prevented with the help of the governor to go to school and the federal government went in and led them safely into the school? How far back should we go with examples of our police or military coming out to control crowds or force us to stay inside? The problem is not the government taking action in times of crisis to protect us, it is if the government uses that power to cause harm. Harm can be anything from an extreme loss of liberty to killing people. A few days with a curfew because all street and traffic lights aren’t working in an urban area isn’t a big deal. I would be right there with you that I am wary of government gaining too much power over the people. We should scrutinize things like the Patriot Act, populations not getting a fair shake in the justice system, how information is given to the public, etc.
I would never say nazi-esque Germany cannot happen in America. I’m Jewish, we are raised to think if it happened in Germany it can happen anywhere. The Germans were advanced, cultured, industrialized, educated people at the time and voted Hitler in through a democratic election. I keep my antennas up to. I see what could be called propaganda in America also; these crazy “news” stations and shows full of slanted “journalism” that are actually entertainment shows is scary shit here.
But, I drifted back to the Holocaust of 9 million and away from the takeover of Europe. The Holocaust is intertwined with the discussion of the police state, because the police state is how they rounded us up. I don’t think it can easily happen again where a group is targeted like that, although like I said never say never. It might happen in small corners of the country, but would get shut down before it got before with present day America. Just like we no longer nail people to a cross for punishment, we are past gassing people for just existing .
No knock drug raids, well, I agree there should be a knock. But, how often do the drug raids pan out and they find a house full of serious drugs? Again, drug houses are not the same as a Jewish mother cooking dinner for her family.
The police have more fire power, because the masses have more fire power. The cops don’t want to get killed, because the bad guys have big guns. I am torn on the gun topic, because as a Jew I wish we could have at least got a few shots out when the Nazis came to round us up. But, as someone who grew up in parts of the country where having a gun was the farthest thing from our minds and feeling fairly comfortable at this time in history that we don’t need to fear the police in the US, I prefer the feeling of no guns over guns everywhere, just a personal preference. The places I lived where guns were commonplace had much much more crime. I am not saying guns cause the crime.
It really depends on where in Germany’s history you want to compare us. If you look at germany of the late 20’s we have some definite similarities. Germany was in the grip of a massive depression, huge debt, and crippling unemployment. Hitler promised solutions for every economic class, farmers would get better prices for thier crops, unemployment would be solved by massive infrastructure projects, small businesses would flourish, and he was a charismatic speaker and accomplished politician. Germany was war weary and disgraced on the world stage. Hitler blamed the the current and past administrations for all the ills and of course the jews. Article 48 of the constitution of the Weimar Republic allowed the president to pass legislation by presidential decree. This was used extensively by both the Hindenburg administration and Hitler. giving the president virtually unlimited power.
I won’t say the situations are identical but if you can’t see similarities, you’re not looking. “Never let a good crisis go to waste” comes to mind.
@Jaxk I always find it Ironic when people compare Obama to Hitler (I am not talking about you, I did not feel you were talking about him specifically) because under Bush we all saw hints of Hitler also. The Patriotic Act is the biggest stand out. But, I think the intent is very different. I don’t feel like our people in power are blaming a particular group and trying to rid the country or planet of them. Also, a part of me actually wanted to go into Afghanastan and occupy that country, but it seems the Us is loath to really occupy a country. Hitler would have no problem.
@JLeslie
“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men” (only the Shadow knows). We’ve been moving towards totalitian government since 1776. Albeit slowly. Power has been shifted to the excutive branch with each successive administration and that process seems to be accelerating. It’s only a matter of time before we find ourselves at the mercy of something less than good intentions. I don’t believe that Obama has anything but good intentions any more than I thought that of Bush. “The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,: Moves on.” The bush administration used 9/11 to expand the power of the ecutive. Obama is using the recession to do the same. The problem is that each administration starts where the last left off. Bush took all the power of the Clinton administration and added more. Obama has taken the power of the Bush administration and added more. The next person will inevitably add even more. It never stops unless we stop it. The end game is inevitably a totalitarian regime. Will it end with a Hitler or a Stalin or maybe a Mao Zedong. The danger is not in the person but rather in the power we give them. Hitler didn’t take power, it was given to him.
@Jaxk The loudest voices who were haiting on Obama talked of socialism not Hitler (some people seemed to think that was all the same thing). The ironic thing is those same people are so pro capitalism and not allfine with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer and more people becoming poor that the very thing I fear is a socialist really being voted in. Look at Venezuela, Chavez gets the vote of the poor. It is the risk that cone with democracy, the majority wins. The poor will vote for promises to make their life better, you have to hope the worst will be minimum wage hikes and not communism. Maintaining our middle class is the best way to keep Hitlers and Stalins out.
@JLeslie
Yes, the promise of better times. Hitler did promise a thriving middle class, a growing economy, and restored national pride. It’s why they granted him the power. The socialism we fear is not true socialism but rather the road to socialism. You can’t get to socialism without first becoming a totalitarian state. And once there, it doesn’t matter if you call it communism or socialism or nazism, the effect is the same. We have been shifting power from the legislative branch to the executive branch at an alarming rate. The various government agencies now control more than the legislature. Hell, the EPA has control over the air you exhale. The Clean Air Act makes no mention of carbon dioxide but they’ve classified it a pollutant and consequently can regulate or ban it. No need for law makers to worry thier pretty little heads about it. The election of 2010 wasn’t really a win for the Republicans so much as a defeat for an all powerful government. The total control excerised by the Democrats scared people. Our beloved FDR tried to expand the Supreme court in order to get some of his New Deal proposals through. It didn’t work, the public and congress were not ready for that quite yet. Would it work today, I don’t know. There’s a lot of resentment against the courts, it might.
Incremental change is the key. People have to get used to the expanded powers of government before they make drastic changes. But the power is unmistakably moving. And crisis seems to help move it along quicker. For those that want unlimited power, a stable and properous country is thier enemy.
No.
Everyone who could post proof is either dead, in hiding or being jailed incognito without being charged or tried.
Except Eric Snowden and they are after his ass.
@Jaxk I firmly believe there would be less government if corporations functioned with more integrity towards the worker and less greed. I’m fine with making a buck, I am a capitalist at heart, but it just gets too extreme and then there is push back. As the poor get poorer the government funds more people with social services, and once on services a percentage of those people get accustomed to it. It is a bad cycle. It is exactly where we are now. Strikes will happen more I think. We will see.
Facebook can take your pictures etc. and use it for ads whatever they want without asking you?
Comparing today’s United States (with all its flaws like every civilized country in the world) with Nazi Germany is an insult to all the victims of Nazi Germany. It’s utterly foolish to ask about some proof. If you want proof wait for the Gestapo knocking on your door for posting inappropriate Fluther questions.
Have they knocked yet?
@mattbrowne . . . You must have only read the question and not my participation in this thread and another that prompted this question. I am tired of constantly hearing about America being a police state and compared to Nazi Germany. It’s a bunch a bell ringing, doom crying sensationalism. I asked it to illustrate the point that, so far, nobody has been able to produce real, demonstrable proof that America is either of those things.
@Blondesjon – I’m very glad that nobody has been able to produce real, demonstrable proof that America is such a state. My reply was simply reinforcing this. It was directed at people who attempt equating the today’s US with Nazi Germany.
Not a police state, yet. But we are definitely going there. One step at a time. One law at a time. One day at a time.
The steps must be immeasurably small because, again, I’ve been hearing this dire warning for over forty years. I have yet to see it.
It’s a tremendous change from when I was a kid.
The police department decided to raid a drug grow up place without polce uniform. At least police one officer died, I don’t know how many of them got injured. He shot at them thinking they were other criminals. They caused it and yet he is the one who got charged with the death and injuries, not the police.
I take back my earlier answer, I was exaggerating there.
@snowberry . . . How so?
Truly not looking to argue here at all. Just curious.
I wasn’t afraid of the police when I was a kid. Now all across the US people are afraid of them. I thought the police in Delaware were bad- general corruption, promising to call back people who had complaints and not bothering to do it, tail gaiting ordinary drivers for no particular reason, ignoring drug dealers who live in the same house for years, speeding with no lights on and no siren, threatening to arrest me for trying to report a crime. Now in my new home town, you’re not even supposed to look a policeman in the eye (really). That’s scary. And it gives them immunity, because everyone’s afraid to even check badge numbers.
I don’t know if it constitutes proof, but there’s a whole website dedicated to collecting stories that are supposed to show how the US is developing into a police state.
@Patton I worry about websites ^ ^ ^ that recommend you wear tin foil hats to keep the Government from getting into your head.
From perusing this website provided by @Patton, I notice they say we are in (or headed to a police state) when we are required to carry identification on our persons at all times: “Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?” If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and don’t answer any more questions. http://www.flexyourrights.org/faqs/when-can-police-ask-for-id/
It also says that 24 states in the US have ID laws.
@Tropical_Willie The website doesn’t recommend wearing tin foil hats. It had an article about a military technology that used the tin foil hat line as an ironic subtitle. Nice try, but no cigar.
@flo LOL they took that down fast, didn’t they?
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