So should we maybe stop punishments for children, full stop?

I think it’s unrealistic for parents never to yell, simply because they get frustrated. I would not call that punishment.
As for swearing at your children, no that is not necessary…and yes, I do think punishing children is superfluous and counterproductive.

Too many damn studies on everything. Parents should parent the way they want. Within reason.

@longgone
I don’t think the research refers to an occasional yelling at one’s kids.

Not a single parent has never list his temper. We all have snapped. I have. I even, in a feflex, have slapped one of my boys once, when he hurt me.

But what I wonder is, when we know all this from research, should we not at least step away from those instances when we deliberately punish by physically or verbally inflicting pain on our children. Leave alone hurt them.

@flip86
Why would you say that?

Would this kind of information not help choose parents in the ways they raise their children?

@whitenoise My point is, for thousands of years before this study, humans have been raising children just fine. Are all parents perfect? No. But who is?

@flip87

I think it is like nutritional sciences.

For thousands of years we know how to eat; our instincts don’t always yield best results though. Through science we learn to eat healthier.

@whitenoise That’s how I understood it, too, and I entirely agree with the idea of “no deliberate punishment.” May not have been clear.

@flip86 “for thousands of years [...], humans have been raising children just fine.”
Depends on what you call fine. Parenting is a hell of a job. Why not search for ways to make it easier and more “effective”?

If you raise children with no punishment they’ll learn that there are no consequences for their actions. Obviously, I don’t condone physical or mental abuse but parents should be stern and authoritative with their child.

Trust me, When I was a young teen, I lived in group homes where they used the “therapeutic approach” and it was a joke. Myself and many of my peers didn’t take any of those staff seriously and we did whatever we pleased.

I have said for a long time I think there should be a class in high school about behavior and relationships. It could cover everything from parent child to work and friendships. I think it is important we think about our impact on others and that there are alternatives.

I think name calling is horrific. Letting out a swear word here and there I have never worried about too much, although I will think about that more, but swearing in exasperation is very different than swearing at someone, which I put in the same category as name calling.

I do think punishment can become a vicious circle. I had very little punishment as a child and I was basically a good kid. I was guided more than I was punished. Although, feeling badly about an action was part of the consequences that molded my behavior. It’s a fine line. Unwanted behavior that negatively affects others; we want our children to feel badly to have a conscience. Other things like simply breaking rules are different. I do think understanding why a rule is in place is much much more effective than just demanding obedience. The rule is more likely to be followed and the child learns to reason for himself. The article mentioned parents who use physical abuse are more likely to switch to verbal abuse in the teen years. Those parents generally think in terms of controlling behavior through punishment, so that makes sense. They seem to have no confidence a child, or their child, will learn without punishment.

What I have never figured out is, the kids that are more out of control, and who have much more punishment doled out, which came first? The chicken or the egg? Do those children continue to do bad things unless some fear is reigned over them? Is there any genetic component? I don’t know if that has ever really been studied? We can’t control for everything in this sort of study.

People in America talk a lot about consequences. There also seems to be a trend to let children know what a punishment will be if they commit a certain breach of rules. The lingo goes something like this, “he chose the consequence when he took the action.” Or, a child will say, “it was worth it.” Like they consciously chose to stay out an hour late knowing they would lose TV privileges and they are fine with it. I find that a little odd, I don’t know how others feel about it. I still find even this punishment oriented. I do believe in a consequence, but I am unsure about a specific consequence for each infraction that is known up front.

@flip86
“My point is, for thousands of years before this study, humans have been raising children just fine.”
Have they?
Humanity’s history that is filled to the brim with war, genocide, rape, mass murder and oppression leads to the opposite conclusion.

@ragingloli That is human nature. No approach to parenting will ever prevent those things from happening.

You have no data to support that claim.

@flip86 So what is decent parenting, in your opinion? When is a child successfully “parented”?

None of this is as black and white as you all seem to think it is. Each child is different and parents need to appropriately deal with each child accordingly.

@flip86 I agree with that to some extent. It is not black and white and each child is different. But, it is still worth while for us to think about how we parent and how it affects children and their behavior. I know a lot of parents who think corporal punishment is the only way for children to grow up right, even though there are examples of people all over America and the world that show people grow up just fine without it. Some of them won’t even pause for a second and consider the alternatives, because they are so sure they are right. That bothers me, the lack of willingness to think about other parenting styles. Not just regarding corporal punishment, but even verbal, and other methods for molding our children.

Thank you @JLeslie. Indeed we need to make sure our children see the negative consequences of their actions. In my mind, pointing those out – even if they are to others is enough for most children.

If there are no real negative consequences, one can be honest… “please do this, since it makes me feel better, knowing that you do so” or choose to not enforce a rule that has no sound base.

However… as @flip86 says ‘nothing is black or white’. We should, however, stay away from the extreme sides of the spectrum. (violent vs totally passive)

Punishment is rarely truly necessary, or effective, though, I feel.

I have two children in their teens; a lot of their friends over; I have been teaching. The children I’ve dealt with would, in general, call me strict. I have, however, never punished any of them and never had any trouble ‘controlling’ them either.

(Albeit that I never really felt a need to control them either. I am their father / teacher / caretaker / responsible person. Authority has so far always come merely from that – nothing more needed.)

@JLeslie I do not condone corporal punishment. No parent should strike their child. Punishment doesn’t have to be physical.

@flip86 Just to be clear, I wasn’t assuming you did condone corporal punishment, what I am saying is some of the verbal punishments used also cause some harm, and there are possibly better alternatives. We shouldn’t dismiss research like this out of hand. Not that I take a study and just think it is the end all be all, but just that it is worthy of consideration.

You mentioned not having much punishment living in a group home. I don’t want to make assumptions, but do you think the early childhood of a lot of those kids infuenced their behavior more than the therapeutic approach used at the home?

I don’t think name calling or cussing is an effective way to parent. Yelling is going to happen from time to time, but screaming and cussing at your kids teaches them nothing.

However, no punishment at all? I don’t agree with that. When children do something they know very well not to do, there should be consequences. It’s basic behaviorism.

@JLeslie We did have punishment at the group homes, but unless we were harming ourselves or others or breaking the law, the staff couldn’t do anything. They could only sit us down(if we were willing)and talk to us. This caused most of us to do whatever we pleased.

I’m sure some of the behaviors were caused by circumstances at home before going into the group home. I admit there are wrong ways to parent, but I don’t think dropping all punishment is the answer.

Again – not all situations and children are the same – (disclaimer)

@livelaughlove21
Consequences are not necessarily created through punishment, I think.

If we want our children to behave in certain ways we have reasons for that. So if they behave deviantly, the consequences should be sought in those reasons.

Most children I’ve met in my life are very willing to ‘work’ with/for their parents (teachers, etc..), That is, I feel, part of the human condition. We want to learn, because that is what we are good at.

Positive confirmation, ignoring unwanted irrelevant behavior, unless it has consequences.
Pointing out reasons and consequences for behavior that we want to change.

99% of the behavior of 99% of the children can be handled that way best. IMO

@flip86
Hope you don’t find this intrusive.

Regarding “They could only sit us down(if we were willing)and talk to us. This caused most of us to do whatever we pleased.”

Do you feel you turned out right?

Do you think you would have turned out better if the behavior you had in the group homes would have been punished. (being shouted at / cursed at / locked up ..etc.)?

From what you wrote, you seem to have turned out OK. Could that be because you found at least some unconditional safety rather than punishment? Was your ‘bad behavior’ not your way of dealing with the past and testing the new environment?

Just wondering… if you don’t want to answer that’s fine as well. :-)

I really don’t like your definition of punishing, @whitenoise. You make it seem like punishing is abusive towards children. There are many ways to approach punishment, and I don’t think that it should involve yelling or beating.
Again I have absolutely no parenting skills, yet somehow I still find myself answering these parenting questions. I base my answers upon how I was raised, and that wasn’t a very long time ago. Punishing makes a child realize that not everything in the world is rainbows and lollipops. You can’t always get what you want, and you have to find a way to let children know that what they are doing is wrong. There are people who I swear have been backed by their parents throughout their whole life and have no clue of what the real life is like. They’re basically spoiled and I’m scared for them. I feel like the best thing to do is to teach a kid about stuff beforehand. Always have a positive tone towards them don’t talk like a jerk to them.
Anything I say is lacking in experimentation. I doubt parents can go without getting frustrated and yelling at their kid.

@flip86 I wonder if the emotional bond with the adult matters? For instance, if I broke curfew it would cause my parents to worry. I don’t really want my parents to worry about me, although I do also want to do what I want to do. Maybe in a situation where the child does not feel a strong bond with the adult, they don’t feel compelled to worry about the emotions of that adult. In a healthy family structure the rules can be discussed and agreed upon taking in to account all concerns from the child’s safety to the parent’s comfort level. Of course, kids tend to be rather selfish in their desires, but not completely void of caring about those they afffect.

So, just thinking it through, maybe the emotional bond is affected by the harsh words. Maybe the bond is the buy in for people to think about how they affect others. Our bond in a family (doesn’t have to be a parent, could be some other guardian) or our bond in society.

Just thinking out loud.

My friends who spited their parents most were punished the most. They literally spited their parents, did things that they knew their parents dissaproved of, because their parents dissaproved. It was an act of independendence and a screw you to their parents. I never had the desire to spite my parents. I absolutely had times I wanted to do something my parents did not approve of, but it wasn’t more attractive to me becase they didn’t approve. Rather it caused me internal conflict to go against them.

If you want to see an example of a kid that misbehaves without being punished, talk to any gang member in Los Angeles.

These are kids with absentee fathers and mothers that work hard, long hours just to keep the family from starving. They don’t have the time or inclination to look at their child’s behavior or attempt to correct it.

On the other end of the scale, look at Lindsey Lohan. She’s another kid that wasn’t disciplined. No, I would never go along with the idea of not punishing a kid. Of course, I wouldn’t beat them or brow-beat them either. The punishment should fit the misbehavior. Most of the time the punishment would be a time-out or a talk to explain what should have been done.

@Ron_C
Problem is that I agree with you, as long as we focus on your last line. A time-out or an explanation.

The examples you give are not those of parenting without punishment. These are examples of non-parenting.

@dxs
Punishment I use as meaning… creating an artificial, negative experience for a person.

The severity of the creation of course has a lot of influence.

Let’s for practicality all agree that we are not talking about an occasional snap or giving a reprimand. I’m talking about an action aimed at creating physical or emotional pain, as an artificial consequence for unwanted behavior.

@whitenoise I have had a pretty shitty life for the most part but through it all I have stayed positive about life, although, I do tend to be very cynical. Many others that were in my situation are in prison. I know this for a fact. My brother was also in group homes and institutions and he has a very large rap sheet and is currently on probation. I have no adult record.

The punishments in the group home consisted of being confined to the property, no going on outings, loss of other privileges etc. I simply wouldn’t follow the punishments, because how would they enforce it? I was different than the other kids in that I was the one who “taught” the others they didn’t have to listen. That the staff had no real authority. The staff recognized this and they either hated me or really liked me. They knew if they pissed me off I could rile up the other kids. It probably wasn’t right for me to do this but they could be very unreasonable at times.

I think my behavior was warranted. Some of those group home staff loved to try and mess with you with the little power they thought they had. I guess my behavior was my way of showing them they had no power over me or anyone else.

@flip86 Were you doing things that were dangerous or causing others to worry?

@JLeslie You are right about the emotional connection. Someone doesn’t necessarily have to be related to have that sort of mutual respect. There were certain staff that I never had a problem with and would listen to. Not because they were easy on me but because of the way they approached me. They didn’t act high and mighty. The acted like a friend, like they genuinely cared for me. I think that makes all the difference.

I never did anything dangerous or illegal.

@flip86 See, that’s the thing. For whatever reason you had your own internal compass directing you. You were not harming others, just breaking some rules. Some of the rules may not have made sense for you, since you were responsible. I think that is all the difference. Some kids are seriously out of control. They cannot control themselves and seem compelled to do things that pretty much we all would say are negative behaviors, antisocial behaviors. Why are those kids like that? And, are they growing up to be out of control adults? That’s what I guess we are all trying to figure out. Will positive reinforcement, punishment, explaining why more affect behavior or not? Are they born a certain way? We certainly see trends in families I would say, so it is hard to separate environment from genes, but I think environment has a tremendous effect.

@JLeslie Most people tell me I turned out well when they learn I’ve been in foster care and group homes. This argument is age old. Nature vs nurture. I think both play a role.

^^ Rules that can be broken without harming others or yourself are futile, IMO. I agree that those rules would be hard to enforce without resorting to some kind of punishment. Question is, do kids need them?

Thank you all,so far for this. I’m truly happy. This is a seriously hard subject and we are talking, not fighting. :-)

It’s my birthday so I take that as my birthday present. You give me things to think about…

I like your latest comment @longgone. Maybe we can better relax every now and then, than get into a fit over futilities.

I now have to attend to real life, for I have guests and we go eat. Stay and continue without me… I’ll be back later.

Have some cake on me… :-) and since this is my birtday and my question… GA to all

Not a surprising study to me. Yes, punishment as a concept should, if not be abandoned, at least require a heavy burden of justification.

Authoritarianism becomes self-justifying as it creates the disease that it purports to cure. It becomes self-reinforcing as it reproduces the authoritarian patterns of behaviour and attitudes in those affected by it.

People in any context, parents or otherwise, would do better to treat each other and their children as equals—as fellow humans on life’s journey, in a nurturing and positive way—and not as objects to be lorded over, constrained and suppressed by priggish dictates.

The problem with this study is that those who would do well to heed its conclusions, are probably the type of people who will prefer to stick to their own prejudices and anecdotal evidences in justifying their continued authoritarian tendencies, and ironically reject the evidence for not wanting to be told what to do…

Spare the rod, and spoil the child.

@filmfann Says who?

Happy birthday, @whitenoise!

Consequences vs punishment is a non sequitur. It is entirely possible, and in my opinion more effective, to teach children the concept of consequences without punishment.

For instance, using time out as a punishment is less effective than using it as a way to reflect on their behavior, especially when accompanied by discussion. For younger children, simply distracting them with acceptable alternatives usually works fine.

When my son was 3 years old, a neighbor used to yell out the door over and over, angrier and angrier until her child came in, and he usually got swatted.

I would call once, and if he didn’t come, I would walk out and get him, picking him up and giving him a big hug, usually saying “Come home, sweetie”.

It didn’t take long for him to come running whenever I called. My neighbor said “How do you do that?”

@YARNLADY that’s beautiful.

The way I used to get my teenagers away from their computer games was to cook popcorn in the kitchen. They would smell it, and come in. We would sit down with a glass of orange juice and a bowl of popcorn, while I reminded them it was bedtime.

No. The rules of the world we currently live in dictate that if you fuck up there are consequences. The one thing that I have always done as a parent is prepare my children for the real world.

I think we must concentrate on guiding and teaching children from the time they leave the womb; this should be our object. Punishment should have nothing to do with it. It takes a lot more time and patience to guide and teach and share life-tools and techniques of survival. Punishment is easy. Just scream at and/or smack the little bastard every time he or she screws up. Easy-peasy. And that is why so many parents do it that way. And that is why we, in the US, spend more money on law enforcement, incarceration and drug programs than our school system.

Wow. What happened to the 10 minute editing time? I think I got 2.

@Espiritus_Corvus I’ve noticed that too, recently, especially in the Meta section.

Editing Time

@Blondesjon I agree, but nobody was suggesting to eliminate consequences.

@YARNLADY You paint a lovely picture, GA.

Then change ‘consequences’ to ‘punishment’ in my post. They are the same thing.

@Blondesjon Oh, okay…thanks for clarifying. That’s where we disagree then. For me, they are not the same thing.

Hey guys, I skipped ahead some so forgive me if this was already said, but the study seems to reflect what would seem like a common sense/philosophical reason to avoid corporal or verbal punishment. Namely if you use pain, violence, anger, fear or undermine your little miscreant’s physical or emotional security as a means to get your desired results out of them here’s what you’re really doing:

Rolemodeling the use of pain, violence, fear and insecurity to solve problems.

That’s a pretty shit strategy to teach your kids. I think we could all do a lot better if our parents disipclined us in manners that taught us healthy ways to solve problems rather than how to weild a blunt instrument (literal or figurative) to try to cow others into line.

Of course kids do still need to be taught about consequences and get appropriate discipline. Timeouts and getting grounded comes to mind and any number of other priviledges revoked. I know my mom set a later curfew if she felt we earned it, but was not at all afraid to roll it back significantly if we got out of line.

@flip86….wins the internet for today. You let kids believe they can do what ever they please, they will do exactly that. Trust me on this. Parents who don’t set boundaries, which might sometimes seem maybe harsh to some, will regret the day they started this. So will the public at large. No, you can not do anything you want to just because…ever. You get 18 years to get this right. Most of that work should be accomplished in the first few. You don’t get there by letting kids have their freedom.

…..explains why we are still living in the dark ages~

I agree with George Carlin on this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ACkc4POpaU

That’s nice @ragingloli.

@cheebdragon
Often I like Carlin, but this time, he’s amiss, I feel.

It’s never a parent’s job to tell their children that they’re losers. That will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Parents should show their kids how to become a winner and make them want to become one.

If ever needed, limit yourself to saying that your kid behaved as a loser. Don’t forget, however, to then explain how to be a winner as well.

Teaching your children how to deal with their own failures and recognizing their own weaknesses is not the same as telling them they are losers.

There are two structures of authority.
The higher and the lower.

Higher is work by giving freedom to all this structure is made possible by the head who appears most insignificant. This structure works only for those who fully understand it.

The lower works by reward punishment. and made possible by a head who is most significant.

The lower structure is what run this world and though it is progressive it is very limited.
So the ultimate benefit of this structure is to show the Higher structure.

If as a parent, you want to use the higher structure, you must accepts all the resulting consequences, without regret or frustration, otherwise you lose the benefits of it and it is better to adopt the lower structure.

Now if you adopt the lower structure, why then eliminate it’s essential and function-able arm that is punishment?

If You want to eliminate this arm why not just operate under the higher structure, where it is possible that the fact that you are parent will be nullified without any adverse effect on yourself.

To try to operate in between the two structures is to be a failure in both which is ineffective parenting.

@longgone Says who?

This 2000 year old book I’ve been reading

@filmfann

Please don’t turn this into a religious debate.
That was the reason I ignored your first remark.

i would like to discuss what is best for our children, based on what we can know now, not on what people thought multiple thousands of years ago.

Else we may as well discuss stop eating pork.

@filmfann I hope you will read this about the rod. It is an interpretation regarding the biblical reference just as something to consider.

I just saw what @whitenoise wrote, and I am not trying to argue religion, I know you usually don’t argue about it either.

@kess
I have a feeling that you have a profound insight that I want to be shared in.

Unfortunately, I don’t fully understand what you wrote. What do you mean with “Higher is work by giving freedom to all this structure is made possible by the head who appears most insignificant. This structure works only for those who fully understand it.”?

@filmfann I was aware where your quote is from. My point was, a single quote from an old book is not very helpful. I’d be more interested in hearing your own arguing.

@woodcutter I may be mistaken, but I don’t think @whitenoise was advocating not setting boundaries.

@longgone, you are not mistaken.

@JLeslie Thank you for that link. it was an enlightening read.

“Higher is works by giving freedom to all, this structure is made possible by the head who appears most insignificant. This structure works only for those who fully understand it.”(adjusted the sentence grammer and punctuation)

The head is the one who initiates the structure, and his role would be to fulfil the desires of the those within,This is accomplished without compromise of integrity of the structure itself.

The apparent challenge will come from the thought that the structure can be destabilized and or hijacked by contrary unit(s) within the structure.
Yet this is only possible if the head entertain this thought as even a remote possibility and if indeed such a thought is entertained, then the integrity this original Higher structure is already breached, and the next best thing is to adopt the Lower structure that unit can be preserved.

But this unit though it may carry the identity of its predecessor, is unlike the former, because in it core structure.

There is much that can be said in terms of an explanation, but I find that those who will understand are usually well capable of filling in the blanks, and others can be in more confusion by further lengthy clarification.

How could we possibly do that? Your kid bites another kid, you just ignore it? Your kid grabs something away from another kid and a fist fight breaks out and you just ignore it? Your kid runs out in the street and you just ignore it?

@Dutchess_III Yes, we can only throw our arms in the air in despair. We’re completely helpless when trying to guide our young humans into developing their intellectual and moral faculties to their fullest.

We thought we had punishment—our best, and indeed only tool—but those pesky scientists want to take that away. What can we do now? Have wolves raise our children?? It seems we may as well!

@whitenoise He didn’t say that anyone should call their kids losers. He said that giving them an award for losing sets them up to fail in life because that’s not how shit works in real adult life, if you fail as an adult you don’t get a fucking trophy. It’s fine to encourage your kid to win, but how is it going to motivate him to win if he gets rewarded for losing? I’m not saying they should be punished for losing and neither did carlin, if they lose you encourage them to try again. How is it going to prepare them for real life to be put on honor roll for attendance alone? “Congratulations your parents got you to school on time”, fucking awesome. Have you ever recieved a promotion at work simply for being at work on time? No, that’s not what happens in adult life. Did you know that suicide rates are higher than they’ve ever been? Interesting coincidence.

@cheebdragon In the real world, people get rewarded for just being prettier or handsomer than most other people. What does that tell us?

@Kropotkin Me thinkin’ wolves might do the job we’re not allowed to do any more, by growling and nipping and smacking and all kinds of abusive stuff. Up with Wolf Nannies.

@YARNLADY That’s on a different playing field.

We all play on the same field.

that’s why we call it the real world.

@Dutchess_III “How could we possibly do that?”
Have you never taught your children anything without punishing them?

I need to know what your concept of “punish” is @longgone, before I can answer that question.

@Dutchess_III Illogical consequence. To use your example of running out into the street: It’d seem logical to insist a child that did that hold my hand in the near future. Grounding, smacking, yelling, early bed times, toys or dessert being taken away…all that I would define as punishment.

Dessert being taken away just tears me up! ANY food punishment just slays me. No wonder Americans are so fat.

There are natural consequences that we can’t afford to let our kids suffer….getting hit by a car because they ran out in the street is a good example. At that point we substitute logical consequences that are unpleasant. How would “holding their hand in the near future” teach them not to run out in the street?

Der @Dutchess_III

Nobody suggests to not empahasise consequences of behavior, or set boundaries for children. What I wonder is, given the afluent clues from science, whether we should not consider stepping away from punishment.

If you punish your child for running onto the street, you are teaching it to not run onto the street (when you are there), to avoid punishment. If you explain the danger you are teaching your child to not run onto the streets, to avoid beimg hurt.

One of the best ways to teach, especially young children, to avoid certain dangers, is to show negative emotions (fear / anger) towards the source of danger yourself. Older children: explain and set a good example.

@cheebdragon
He does mention that it’s a shame no one tells kids that they’re losers anymore and that they now have to wait for their future bosses.

Now that I listen to it closer, though, I realize that he isnt talking about parenting, but about overprotective schools. His remark was a hyperbole and fitting within that context.

I agree that neither parents nor schools should overprotect their children, but that’s a different topic that merrits its own discussion.

Anyways… ‘Not punishing’ doesn’t equal ‘not giving feedback’ or ‘avoiding constructive, honest critisism’.

@Dutchess_III I’d hold their hand for safety, so as to avoid the “natural consequence” of being run over. The teaching would happen in a way similar to @whitenoise.‘s But you still haven’t answered my question…

@Dutchess_III Our species didn’t evolve with roads and cars, so there’s nothing natural about them. What is natural is a child’s inquisitiveness and tendency to wander and explore, at least when they’re toddlers. The point is, there’s nothing immoral or wrong about such behaviour, and therefore no justification to punish.

I agree with @whitenoise that showing negative emotions toward the source of the danger (you can probably include disgust in the list also) is the best way to go. Young children won’t understand your explanations, and probably not your punishment, but we’re wired to understand the basic emotions and the facial expressions that go with them. Still, it’s a good idea to let children wander and explore in safe areas, and then hold their hands and keep them close and safe in dangerous areas. You do the explaining when they’re old enough to understand and appreciate the explanations.

@Dutchess_III Your other examples have no context. The entire conclusion of the study was that punishment only aggravates delinquent behaviour, and could well be the cause of such behaviour in the first place. Lots of things children are punished for are completely petty and trivial, and it is that which can lead to developmental and psychological problems later on—by then they’ll need therapy, not punishment. (But apparently they’ll be well-prepared for the real world)

Do you have kids, @longgone? More than one? How about 3 or 4? How about twins?

@Kropotkin Who in the world said running in the street was immoral? It’s just a very bad idea because they could get killed! Sorry. No time for cuddly psychology when it comes to things that puts their life in danger. A loud, scary ”NO!” is called for.

I used to run a daycare. One time, when my son was about 4 he came in from outside where he was playing with the day care kids and put himself in time out. I asked “What are you doing? I didn’t put you in time out!”
He said, “Well, once you find out what I just did you’ll put me in time out so I figured I’d get started.” :)

I would prefer the term “discipline,” rather than punishment. ”

@Dutchess_III

I find @longgone‘s answers on this thread quite open, honest and well thought through. The quality of his/her arguments has nothing to do with his/her being a parent or not.

All in all… there is no need for ad hominem arguments. Please address the topic not each other. I think your post must have been a mistake.

@Dutchess_III
re “I would prefer the term “discipline,” rather than punishment.

We are talking about using punishment on your children, though. Doesn’t matter how you call it, it still remains the same action. This thread is about research that seriously questions verbal punishment as an effective tool in raising your children. The research actually provides many indications of the opposite: verbal punishment may very likely cause problems rather than prevent them.

Similar data has already been around for corporal punishment and the research shows that parents shift from corporal to verbal punishment when their kids grow into adolescence.

This is for many me and some other people reason to advocate that punishment overall should be abolished, or reduced to a minimum.

OK, how would you guys suggest handling this problem. My grand daughter has a cheer mate on her team who is a flat out bully. She corners the other girls one at a time and calls them names, tells them they’re stupid, they’re nasty etc. My daughter knows the parents and they’re both baffled by her behavior. The child has 4 older brothers and sisters, 3 have grown up and moved out. Mom says none of her other kids have ever acted like this. Fortunately she isn’t one of those parents who say, “It’s not my kid’s fault. You did something to make her act like that,” so she’s ready to take some action. The girls in question are 9, 10 or so.

There is, no abuse, nothing going on at home. Her parents are decent people, she has had the same up bringing as her brothers and sisters who are fine. She may very well just be reacting to all the advertising about bullies, and has decided to see what being one was like.

What would you do to discourage her behavior that wouldn’t involve “discipline”?

@whitenoise ‘Not punishing’ doesn’t equal ‘not giving feedback’ or ‘avoiding constructive, honest critisism’.

And punishing discipline does not equal ‘not giving feedback’ or ‘avoiding constructive, honest criticism’.

Do you assume parents who discipline just discipline and not have discussions and give love and hugs after the child is disciplined?

@whitenoise @longgone seems to be coming from the perspective that you only have 1 child to worry about, whose hand you can hold every minute of the day that you are outside of the house.

GQ @jonsblond. We do have discussions, we do express love too. But, for example, “This is the second time it’s happened son, and just talking and reasoning isn’t doing the trick. We need something more.”

No @jonsblond
I don’t asume that all. Actually most parents I know, whether they punish their children on occasion or not, are great people that have the best intentions for their children.

I am convinced, though, that the feedback can do without the punishment and that the punishment actually hinders the child in properly processing the feedback.

[...]and give love and hugs after the child is disciplined?

The research explicitly mentions that the negative effect on the children’s development is not negated by the overall warmth of the parent.

The notion that harsh discipline is without consequence, once there is a strong parent-child bond—that the adolescent will understand that ‘they’re doing this because they love me’—is misguided because parents’ warmth didn’t lessen the effects of harsh verbal discipline.

Discomfort, even pain, is a natural part of learning about the world around us. It’s natural.

Case in point. We had a family get together at our land. For the kids, we set up our pop up camper. They had a grand time running in and out, playing house, playing zoo, whatever. My son’s 22 month old daughter tried to be part of the action with the bigger kids. She was in the camper and managed to get her fingers pinched in the camper door, like 3 times. Twice she did it to herself! The first time this awful wail went up that you instinctively understand means “I’m hurt.” Not, “He’s picking on me!” or “I’m frustrated!” Simply, “I’m hurt.”
The first time she got all kinds of cuddles and lovings and we stuck her fingers in ice, more to distract her than anything, and it worked. She was soon back in the camper. The next two times she didn’t get so much attention because she understood she wasn’t dying and also, she had shut the door on herself!
After that my son propped the door open.

A while later I was in the camper with Adrionna. She deliberately put her hand on the door jam…and started to pretend crying! She made the connection. Through pain. More pain than her father and mother or anyone else there would have ever dished out as a consequence.

@Dutchess_III

We’re not talking about pain in general… we are talking about pain deliberately inflicted by the parent. A parent punishing his/her child may gain immediate change in behavior from the child and feel it works. It turns out that behavioral change accomplished this way with children seems less likely to last, though.

Furthermore risk of damage it may do to the child’s development and the bond with the parent outweighs any benefits from the short term behavioral change.

What if the swat causes NO pain, just an unpleasant feeling, coupled with the parent’s obvious displeasure?

Again, it all depends on the context. It depends on how it’s done, what is done, and the overall relationship between the child and his or her parents. See my next comment.

My son is currently in a custody battle for his daughter. Her mother has two other kids, little boys. She’s a real jerk. Her idea of “discipline” is to lash out, scream, slap, hit, “bite back” (like if the boys bite each other.) I’m sure Chris has told her if he ever sees a mark on Adrionna, six kinds of hell will rain down on her so we’ve never seen anything.

He gets her from Wed. night to Sunday morning. I usually see them on Thursday. On Thursday she’s a snot! She’s defiant, she’s always snarling “Mine!” She tends to ignore what her dad tells her to do. But Dad’s no wimp. He doesn’t spank, doesn’t even give time out (yet) but he manages to bring her in line, usually just with his voice (which he occasionally raises, deliberately, with instant results. I’m so jealous!)

By Friday, she’s a whole different kid.

If anyone refers back to my comment about the camper door where I said, ”...More pain than her father and mother or anyone else there would have ever dished out as a consequence.” please know I was referring to my son’s fiance, her step mom.

@Dutchess_III
We’re not talking abou swats or no swats. We’re talking about punishing. That is inflicting pain.

If you’re not inflicting physical or emotional pain, then you’re just signalling.

Anyways… Let’s stay away from the spanking debate… That takes very little time to go sour here, on fluther, is my experience.

@Dutchess_III
I was waiting for that argument. I’ve been out with three small kids, at the most… I try not to leave the house with more children than I can handle. If that renders me incompetent, so be it.
I’m wondering why you think the story about Adrionna is helping your case. She repeated the behavior that caused her pain, instead of being discouraged.
I notice you still haven’t answered my question, which I find surprising and slightly annoying.

So wait @whitenoise You’re not referring to things like time out, or grounding, things like that? I could go for that! I think we could do away with spankings altogether, but most people don’t, or can’t, devote the additional time it takes to teach the child a lesson without that immediate reinforcement. (Which doesn’t hurt. I never hurt my kids when I swatted them, any more than my husband hurts me if he swats me on the butt.)

Yes, well @longgone, when you have several little kids at home alone with you it’s not like you can pick and choose which ones you’re going to take and which ones you’re going to leave behind. I ran a daycare for several years. I often had to take up to 6 kids out at once. There are many people out there with multiple kids, often a bunch of preschool kids, like if they have twins and stuff. The kids have to learn to respond to voice commands.

The story about Adrionna is just showing that she immediately learned that the door could hurt her. To try and explain it to her ahead of time (which she wouldn’t have understood) would have been fruitless.
However, the first time she was also showered with all kinds of attention and love and sympathy. She was probably trying to recreate THAT aspect of the experience without the actually getting hurt part! Which didn’t work. I just called her a goose and lifted her out of the camper and set her down on the ground.

And I’m sorry…what was your question?

@Dutchess_III 
My question:  “Have you never taught your children anything without punishing?”

Re. Adrionna: I’d argue that she didn’t.

Of course kids have to learn to respond to your voice. We’re talking about how best to teach them.

That Adrionna didn’t what, @longgone?

Well, if punishment in this question only includes physical reinforcements, like spanking, etc., then yes. 99% of what I taught my kids was not accompanied by “punishment”. Spankings were reserved for serious matters. Things that endangered themselves or other kids. Also, defiance.
As for the day to day stuff, I was pretty creative, actually. I learned a lot about non-physical “crowd control” in teacher school too.

@Dutchess_III
I’d argue that Adrionna did not immediately learn that the door could hurt her. On the contrary, in fact.

In this thread, I think both @whitenoise and I have explained that we define punishment as deliberately causing pain in response to a certain behavior. This pain does not have to be physical. So, does that change your answer? Have you really never taught your children anything without resorting to some kind of punishment?

Emotional “pain”? Does putting a kid in time out cause emotional “pain” in your opinion? Does telling them they can’t have something that they want cause emotional pain? Does making them do something that they don’t want to do cause emotional pain?

She learned @longgone. She learned that it hurt but also that she got a lot of attention for it the first time. The next two times she closed the door on her own fingers gently then started wailing. We didn’t fall for it. That’s when Chris propped open the door. The last time she only put her hand on the jam and tried crying to see if I’d love on her in response. Which I didn’t, not for that. She got lots of loving at other times during the day, from lots of people, but not for that. Don’t imagine she’ll even mess with it again, and she’ll just keep her fingers out of the way if she can.

You learned it too, somewhere along the way. If a door is swinging shut and your hand is on or near the jam, you yank it out of the way, fast! Cause it hurts. And what REALLY hurts is getting a car door slammed on your fingers! I remember that. Ouch.

My sister got the tip of her pinky cut off on the hinge side of a door jam. Bet THAT taught her a lesson!!

@Dutchess_III
Re. “Emotional pain”
Let’s call it “discomfort” and not get hung up on semantics, okay?

If you have never dealt with any kind of misbehaviour without punishment, I understand the concept must seem strange to you. On that other thread you started, you got lots of helpful suggestions for dealing with your problem. Try one…you may be surprised. I’m not attempting to change your way of thinking – just keep an open mind.

There are lots and lots of ways of dealing with misbehavior other than physical punishment. I rarely used corporal punishment. If I did, as I said above, it was for something far more serious than your run of the mill, daily incidents one has with kids.

Time out was the most common deterrent that I used. And even that got quite refined as my education training progressed.

I did get some great answers on that other thread, but that question was more hypothetical than anything, although I tied it in with a real life example.

Well, why not use the same solutions for both the hypothetical and correlating “real life” problem? Seems like a win-win. Goodbye now, off to my own real-life problems.

Because in the hypothetical situation it isn’t my issue to deal with. It’s my son’s. I rarely have to deal with toddlers by my self any more.

My favorite method, which I learned in class, is to give kids options, give them control over the discipline. This is a real life example:

I was a playground monitor and two boys come running up, angry with each other. “He did this,” “Well HE did that!!” I said, “OK. Obviously you guys had a problem and you guys need to work it out together. I want you to go stand on that wall over there and figure out what the problem is, how it started and, most importantly what you could have done differently. When you’ve figured it out, come on back here. You don’t even have to get my permission. If it takes you 3 seconds, great. If it takes 3 hours, I’ll wait. It’s up to you.”

They started walking to the wall, deep in earnest conversation. They got to the wall and basically bounced right off of it and came back to me.

They both confessed what they had done (“I shouldn’t have thrown dirt in his face.” “I shouldn’t have shoved him when he threw dirt in my face….”) They then told me what they could have each done differently.

I finished up with, “OK. You have 2 more choices. You can either kiss and make up, or shake hands.”

They giggled and shook hands and walked off, the best of friends again. The whole thing took about 20 seconds.

I learned to apply the same thing to time out at my house. Of course, the kid needs to be a little older and have more advanced reasoning abilities, but it REALLY worked well.

Often a kid will say “I didn’t do anything.” That technique draws the truth out immediately, and easily, and you find your self with amazingly self-perceptive and wise kids, out of the blue! You just have to take away the games.

Another point that I keep trying to make in this type of discussion is that you don’t get that kind of behavior without starting from the very beginning. When the child is young enough to be physically removed or re-directed, with kind words, that is when you start.

Many people argue that children can’t understand discussion. I do not agree with that. They begin to understand words and sounds even before they are born.

Discipline does NOT EQUAL punishment, and punishment does not equal discipline. The resulting actions may seem similar, but think of discipline as SELF-discipline (one does not punish oneself) and you will see how that is different.

The whole point of any behavioral modification is to teach the child what behavior is acceptable and what isn’t. The ideal is when the child chooses the acceptable behavior, even when no one is looking.

GA YarnLady. It’s to teach the kid, as an adult, to have internal discipline, not external. Hopefully when they grow up they won’t do something because it’s wrong to do it, not because they could get caught.
Ask an adult “Would you ever rob a bank?
If they say, “No, of course not,” ask them why.
If they say “Because it’s wrong,” that’s good.
If they say, “Because I could get caught and get in trouble,” that’s bad. Shows an immature emotional frame of mind.

You can talk to your kid all you want about how it’s not safe to run into the street, but as soon as his brand new toy rolls down the driveway he isnt going to think about anything you have said previously. When you look overland see your child in the middle of the road and a car headed right for him, please let me know how using gental tones works out for you…

@cheebdragon Actually, very few children are run down in the street while playing. The biggest danger to them is inside automobiles. The latest child killed by being run down in the street in my neighborhood was with his mother, when a drunk driver killed him.

You are missing the point – the purpose is to teach them to make acceptable choices. I have always supervised my children to the point where I see a toy go into the street, I tell them to let it go until it’s safe, and they DO AS I SAY.

Constant supervision is KEY to teaching without punishment.

@cheebdragon Why would any sane adult let their child play near a road, with a toy that could roll down on to that road, without any supervision?

What teaching method are you imagining would be effective in your (frankly ludicrous) scenario, that would stop the child from potentially chasing the toy across the road?

Are you looking for some sort of silver bullet that would absolve one of any need to adequately supervise one’s child?

Kids play in their front yards around here all the time @Kropotkin. They can be quick little buggers. When I started driving my dad told me if a ball ever rolled or bounced in the street, you hit the brakes as if it were a little kid, because there was a good chance a kid would be right behind it.

It happened just the other day, actually. My husband was driving. Ball showed up, he slammed on the brakes. Then we saw the kid, paused on the curb, who had been taught, no matter what, to LOOK before you ran after it. Thank goodness, although we stopped in front of the ball.

It’s ludicrous to be playing outside, in the front yard, with a ball? Did I just read that? Oh, that’s right, kids don’t play outside anymore. They sit on their butts in front of screens all day. where it’s nice and safe~

In the 60’s we were outside, on the sidewalk in front of the house, skating on these which, no matter how tightly you keyed them down, would fly apart at the first bump, when you were trying to hit 90, and throw you into a tree. Our parents sent us outside, unsupervised. They figured we’d get hurt along they way. They figured we’d heal and learn.
We would have been so much better off sitting on our butts in front of a TV screen, safe.

No ome said it’s ludicrous to ,ay outside.

For the discusion we’re im though, itbis only relevant whether punishing a child will teach it to stay away from the road better, especially when unsupervised.

I dare to say it does not and likely it will have poorer results. Punishment teaches a child to avoid punishment (not relevant when no parent there) and other methods teach the child to stay away from the road.

Being punished didn’t teach me to avoid being punished, @whitenoise. It taught me to stop doing whatever it was that I was doing wrong. I turned out fine, as did many, many other people I’ve known who were also punished as children.

@jonsblond

From what I’ve read from you on fluther, I am more than convinced that you indeed turned out fine. Not contesting that!!!!

None of the research I’ve seen is saying that punishment, verbal or physical, will surely damage your child. What it says, is that there is a significant risk that it will. On top there seem to be clear indications that there are far more effective instruments in raising your children to be ‘proper’ adults (whatever you think that is) than punishment. Worse: punishment may very well trigger more delinquent behavior rather than prevent it.

There is a lot of reason to believe that when you have a feedback on unwanted behavior for your child punishment may prevent proper internalization of the behavioral change you pursue.

This remark in the research should definitely make you think:
“The notion that [...] the adolescent will understand that ‘they’re doing this because they love me’—is misguided because parents’ warmth didn’t lessen the effects of harsh verbal discipline.”

If there is a risk to have negative effects from punishments and the expected returns are small or negative, compared to alternative techniques, should we then not look at those alternatives, rather? (This is purely from a utilitarian point of view, not from a wider, moral one.)

THE most important aspect of a child’s upbringing is the relationship he or she has with his parents. If it is warm and loving, if the parent is active in his life, active in school, and the parent gives the kid a swat once in awhile, the kid’s going to be fine.

If you have a parent who doesn’t care, is distant and unemotional, and reacts to bad behavior by lashing out in anger, yelling, screaming, calling names…but never “hits,”...that kid is NOT going to be fine.

It’s about consistency too. See my example above about my son putting himself in time out. He had no DOUBT that that is what I was going to do. He didn’t have to think “Maybe she’ll just ignore it.” or, “I can’t tell her because she might hit me.” He knew what to expect so he got started on it.

“It’s ludicrous to be playing outside, in the front yard, with a ball? Did I just read that?”

@jonsblond No, you did not read that. What was ludicrous were the numerous fallacies in @cheebdragon‘s scenario:

Misleading vividness: If a child is treated with “gentle tones”, then he could chase his toy down the driveway and run across the road. (Except that there’s no actual evidence given.)

False Dilemma: “Gentle tones” is offered as the only alternative to presumably “harsh tones” or some kind of punishment. (There are lots of alternatives, like giving the child a toy that won’t roll down the driveway, or securing the driveway so that no toys roll out on to the road, or supervising the child, or using other teaching methods to signal that the road should be avoided [already mentioned by whitenoise], or letting the child play somewhere away from the road… do I go on?)

Strawman: No one even mentioned “gentle tones” or argued that such a thing would be sufficient to teach a child to not chase their toy across a road.

And even if were true that “gentle tones” doesn’t stop a child from chasing their toy down a driveway and across a road, it doesn’t follow that “harsh tones” or any sort of punishment does.

You need evidence—not rhetoric, or personal anecdotes, or appeals to emotion.

“Being punished didn’t teach me to avoid being punished, @whitenoise. It taught me to stop doing whatever it was that I was doing wrong. I turned out fine, as did many, many other people I’ve known who were also punished as children.”

With all respect, the actual evidence does not support you, and whether you and your friends and acquaintances have turned out “fine”, whatever that even means, is utterly irrelevant.

On this thread alone I’ve seen faulty inferences made, fallacious rhetoric, appeals to emotion, personal anecdotes being put forward as if they somehow trump or refute actual research,... so I really question what value it is to believe one has turned out “fine”, when it seems that there’s reason to think that many people just don’t reason particularly well, are susceptible to bias and prejudice, and are not competent to assess themselves and others accurately. (I’m not exempting myself, by the way.)

“A sane person to an insane society must appear insane.” ― Kurt Vonnegut

was all that for me? I skimmed and read gentle tones several times and assumed it wasn’t for me because I never said anything about gentle tones. I’m happy with how I was raised and how I’ve raised my children so I really don’t care what y’all think. g’night!

I, personally, never let my kids out of the house. Never. Except to go to school. And I escorted them them to school every foot of the way and escorted them back. Other than that, they didn’t leave the house.

@YARNLADY Kids get hit by cars all the time, the kid across the street has been hit 2x, I’ve had to return the little girl next door to her parents after seeing her play between parked cars, running down the street in a diaper, and just a couple hours ago I had to stop her from chasing a dog down the middle of the street, and every single time it’s happened her parents had no idea she was even outside. Her mom is the president of the PTA at my sons school btw.

@whitenoise I kind of thought that the last several thousand years of similar child rearing was evidence enough that this 1 study is probably full of shit.

@cheebdragon

I don’t know what to say.

@Dutchess_III
Do you realize you were not punishing in your example of those boys making up? As to consistency: Yes, that’s important – but a child getting locked up for every small infraction would get treated consistently, too.

@jonsblond
Saying you, yourself, turned out fine is too easy. If that were all it took, people would be entitled to beat and starve their children as long as they were abused, too.

I think it’s a little unfair to try and turn this interesting thread into a discussion on safety. We all agree kids should not get run over. The only question is how best to teach them not to run into the road.

Equating those who do not condone punishment with evil, indifferent parents is wrong and does not distract from the lack of a proper argument.

@cheebdragon
Been thinking a little longer…

re ” this 1 study is probably full of shit”

Your answer seems a mix of arrogance and something that looks like ‘pride in ignorance’.

In all honesty, I cannot understand how you can dismiss the hard work of a team of scientists that publish in pear reviewed magazines, from a respectable university, like that. Don’t you care how ignorant and arrogant that makes you look?

A professor and her team have spend over two years looking at 967 two-parent families and their children. How can you dismiss that? Did you read the report? Did study their methodology? Did you think up relevant objections to her findings and the way she came to them?

How come you cannot put in a single bit of intellectual effort and still feel you can refer to other people’s work as shit?

And then you even have people rewarding that with a great answer…. Unbelievable.

”@whitenoise I kind of thought that the last several thousand years of similar child rearing was evidence enough that this 1 study is probably full of shit”

@cheebdragon No, you thought wrong. You’ve made yet another fallacy, this time an appeal to tradition—that your proposition is correct because people have done it this way for a long time.

The last few thousands of years has been rife with ignorance, a tradition that some of us would like to overturn—and others, it seems, would wish to continue.

@whitenoise Sorry I’m so late to this thread. I’d certainly counsel @cheebdragon to take quite seriously any publication that pears take the trouble to review. :-)

As to disciplining children, it must be done but never works when lack of personal discipline is what the parent models to their child. Never discipline in anger.

@longgone Of course I realize it wasn’t “punishment.” 90% of the disciplining of my kids didn’t involve “punishment.” Most of the time it involved time out.

Your comment ”...but a child getting locked up for every small infraction would get treated consistently, too.” didn’t make sense. Could you the “would get treated consistently too,” part? Also, could you clarify what you mean by “locked up?”

@Dutchess_III I think @longgone refers to consistency, making the case that it isn’t just dependent on being consistent, but also on what you are consistent in.

Along the lines of ‘being drunk every day’, so I lead a regular life.

I was consistent. That is one of the most important aspects of parenting, IMO.
Again, I refer you to my son who put himself in timeout because he knew that’s exactly what was going to happen when I found out what he did.

@Dutchess_III
In other words: it isn’t just about doing things right, but about doing the right things.

Consistency is great, unless you are doing consistently doing something wrong.

I see. And of course you’re right.

I still don’t get the “locking them up,” line, though.

Time-out is punishment.

@Dutchess_III
Yes, exactly. Thank you, @whitenoise.
“Locking up” was an example of a wrong kind of consistency. IMO, it’s wrong to lock children up. If someone told me he was disciplining his child in that manner, then added, “but at least I’m being consistent”, I would not be impressed. Because he would consistently do the wrong thing.

I am amazed at your other comment (“90% of the disciplining of my kids didn’t involve “punishment.”), because now, I finally received an answer to the question I asked multiple times. Thank you.

And yes, of course time-out is punishment…

For the sake of this thread I think we determined that “punishment” involves physical, corporal punishment @Kropotkin

When the kids were very little someone told me to consider the things I had to do to discourage misbehavior as “disciplining” them, rather than “punishing them.” I think that was wise. It does change your outlook on things and your reasons for doing them.

One time my husband and I got into a disagreement. He said “Raising kids isn’t something you think about! It’s just something you do”
I was like, “What???”

I agree that locking your kids up would be a horrible thing to do, too @longgone, even if you only did it one time. Consistency really has nothing to do with that kind of abuse.

And you’re welcome. It just took a little communication and clarification.

Time out a punishment? I don’t necesarilly think so.

The time outs we gave our children went as follows.(Example, only!!!)

“George, please stop making so much noise, this is unpleasent to the rest of us”

Then if George would still continue, I would ask him to go with me to the hallway. In the hallway, I would ask him to stay there until he could control himself.

After a while, sometimes 10 seconds, sometimes minutes, he’d come back and we’d welcome him. it was clear he wasn’t there as punishment, but because his behavior was unwanted in our presence. If he wanted to be with us, he needed to adjust. He invariably did, because that is where he wanted to be.

I don’t consider that kind of time out a punishment, it is a constructed moment for the child to realign his behavior.

Now…. If I would come home and hear George had been making a racket and then send him to his room for an hour, then that would be punishment. My wife and I have never done that, nor ever felt that we had the need for that.

^^^^ Agreed. You were teaching him self discipline by imposing external discipline on him until such time he had it figured out for himself.

@Dutchess_III

No you are wrong with your definition of punishmen, three posts upt. The definition was deliberately inflicting pain as a way to influence or retribute behavior.

Let’s for practicality all agree that we are not talking about an occasional snap or giving a reprimand. I’m talking about an action aimed at creating physical or emotional pain, as an artificial consequence for unwanted behavior. This goes for physical as well as non physical acts.

Sure. Out of control screaming and cussing at a child, calling them names, for example, would create serious emotional pain so I would agree it’s punishment too. It would be far worse than a swat too.

I just thought of something @whitenoise…How DO you handle things like learning your kid was acting up and misbehaving while in someone elses care? I agree that giving him time out so long after the fact is not fair, but it needs to be addressed in some way.

Did any of you actually read the fucking study? It’s not about little kids, it’s about teenagers (early adolescents is 11–14) ..........…hmm, what was that you were saying about ignorance?

Yes, the study was about adolescents, but the question included all ages.

@cheebdragon
Of course this study is about teens. What does have to do with it?

And speaking of the study…why in the world would any one need a study to know that screaming and yelling at your teenager is harmful? It’s harmful to everyone of all ages, not just teenagers.

@whitenoise
I would define time-outs as a fixed number of minutes… I agree, “George” did not get punished.

@Dutchess_III
Never mind. If your definition of punishment is not the one we’ve been using in this thread, we’re talking about two different things…

My definition of “punishment” IS the one we’ve been using in this thread.

@Dutchess_III
You said, “For the sake of this thread I think we determined that “punishment” involves physical, corporal punishment”

@whitenoise‘s definition, on the other hand: ”[...] an action aimed at creating physical or emotional pain, as an artificial consequence for unwanted behavior. This goes for physical as well as non physical acts.”

It was age specific for a reason…young children aren’t capable of understanding why you don’t want them to do something. Their minds haven’t developed enough to grasp the concept of logic and reasoning.
How many times have you told them not to do something, only to find them doing exactly what you said not to just minutes or days later?

Teenagers are completely different than young children, you can not use the same disciplinary methods.

@cheebdragon

Very rarely.

Re @Dutchess_III
You wrote:
And speaking of the study…why in the world would any one need a study to know that screaming and yelling at your teenager is harmful?

Because still “a nationally representative survey found that about 90 percent of American parents reported one or more instances of using harsh verbal discipline with children of all ages; the rate of the more severe forms of harsh verbal discipline (swearing and cursing, calling names) directed at teens was 50 percent.”

It may seem to be what we in Dutch would refer to as “an open door”. That makes me wonder even more, why so many people seem to not accept its obvious implications of abollishing harsh verbal discipline.

@longgone Yes. @whitenoise cleared that up for me here. And my response, which agreed with her, was right after that, here

@whitenoise Some parents scream and yell as their primary “discipline” method and they do it constantly, from the time the child is a baby. They justify it by saying “It’s the kid’s fault. He’s just a BRAT.” Those kinds of parents just aren’t very bright, and aren’t reading “studies,” aren’t thinking about what they’re doing. We have some living right across the street. So much screaming and yelling and crying going on, all the time. When I asked “Why would anyone need a study to know it was wrong?” I was referring to relatively educated, intelligent humans who actually think about what they’re doing.

That 90% figure includes parents who snap at their kids once in a while in frustration,which we have all done, so that seems a bit skewed to me.

The thing is….there is no more of a risk now than there was 2000 years ago or even 10 years ago.

I think the objective is to become more aware that we could be raising psychopaths by our behavior toward our kids.
But….the parents who are doing that are clueless. The poor kid across the street is being destroyed by his environment. But I’m sure that if we talked to the parents they would pin it all on the kid.

We recently had to let go of our driver for two years. (He had visa issues.)

He came back tonight, asking for two pictures of our boys and was literally crying when he said goodbye to them. A very sad ocasion, but also indicating that we at least raise our boys well enough for people to geneuinly like them.

That is really sad @whitenoise. :(

It is… We gave him some money, but we really have no clue how to help him.

@Dutchess_III Sorry, I missed that.

it’s all good @longgone.

I agree that it is better not to yell, when communicating a week-long computer game ban. But punishments are absolutely essential, when three warnings lead to no effect / no changed behavior of the child.

↑ agreed.