Is Germany due for another attempt to invade the world?

Well, someone has to rise up and protect the world from American tyranny.

@talljasperman is waiting for ragingloli ‘s response. @RealEyesRealizeRealLies I will have to wait until CNN announces the next war.

Related fun fact: The FDP, Merkels former coalition partner, and which is, economic policy wise, the German version of the Republican party, got less than 5% of the popular vote, which means they just got kicked out of parliament entirely.
Not happy that Merkel won, but I guess the FDP being kicked out is sort of a consolation prize.
(and their entire party leadership resigned due to that fiasco)
As for WW3, we all know that it is the US, the Great Satan, that will start it.

Germany never declared war on the first two countries it invaded, Austria and Czechoslovakia. I don’t believe they actually declared war on Poland either. It was an invasion. I’m not sure war was actually declared until France and Britain declared it against Germany.

They were well into it before anyone ever recognized it as real war. I could be wrong, but I think the US hasn’t officially declared war since WWII. I don’t think CNN is under any obligation to announce a war that hasn’t been declared… Considering they’re just a Patsy for US misinformation anyway. You’d get more reliable reporting from AlJazzeera America.

@ragingloli “As for WW3, we all know that it is the US, the Great Satan, that will start it.”

What do you mean by “will”? As if it hasn’t already happened.

America is so bloody bold that they’ve already started WWIV… The undeclared Cyber War.

here come the days of havoc and chaos

I’ll just leave this here.

@ragingloli . . . I see that your prejudices don’t keep you from spending a great deal of time on one of the Great Satan’s Q&A websites.

Bless your little heart. :)

Hey, it’ll be over a lot faster if we’re on their side this time.

Oh come on, no industrial country would try this today. The rest of the world has way too much firepower, plus all of our economies are so interwoven. An up and coming nation maybe, like China or India could try something, but they’re in the same boat. Who want’s to bite the hand that feeds it?

@Hawaii_Jake Hahaha I just watched Duck Soup again a couple days ago :P

No way! Germany came of age when the Berlin Wall fell and the nation was reunited.

When the wall was coming down several people I knew said they worry Germany would attempt something again sometime in the future. Most Americans probaly see the wall coming down as a fabulous thing, but at the time when the wall came down the war and holocaust were fresh enough that Jews especially liked having America and Russia over there watching things. People said Germany has done it twice, why not a third time?

However, I find Germans in general to be horrified by what happened during the holocaust (I kind of separate out the holocaust and the war) and also German people tend to be rather antiwar and anti interferring with other countries. So, I think Germany would not be on board so fast with starting wars or trying to take over other countries. But, culturally, Germans do seem to have an air of thinking they know the right way to do things and can judge others. America has a lot of that too. That attitude can lead to all sorts of things, especially if you have fire power and economic power; even worse if the economic power begins to slip away, then the citizenry gets more desperate and will follow leaders who have promises of fixing things. But, trying to take over other countries is harder today I would say. Especially in western Europe.

Angela Merkel won the election for three reasons in my opinion
1) She changed her party from being very conservative (H. Kohl, F.J. Strauss) to being moderately conservative
2) Many people perceive her as more emphatic than her challenger Peer Steinbrück, who often sounds like an excellent data analyst
3) Germany had the mechanisms in place to better deal with the consequences severe financial crisis of 2008 than other European countries.

There is a consensus of most German politicians to cover parts of the debt of the Southern European countries, if they are willing to implement structural changes, e.g. how to run an efficient public administration. There are extreme examples such as dysfunctional Greek record keeping of who actually owns land and real estate or a dysfunctional system to follow up on written orders to pay taxes. The Greek public radio station (funded by taxpayers or rather foreign creditors because of missing tax payments) requires about seven times more people to offer their program compared to Germany.

Why would today’s Germany invade the world? It is part of NATO and the European Union. Our country is more reluctant to send troops and only if there is a clear UN mandate. Nothing points to extremists being a strong political force. Most Germans vote for moderate political parties.

You’re so far up @ragingloli‘s arse you must have a Hitler tache of it’s shit smeared neath your nose.
Also, what @Blondesjon said, with bells on.

@JLeslie – You wrote that culturally, Germans do seem to have an air of thinking they know the right way to do things and can judge others. I am aware of this perception when non-Germans interact with Germans. But there’s a difference between perception and intention. What non-Germans often are not aware of this: when Germans communicate with each other it’s done in the same style. Very direct. Very clear. Very un-British (who talk about a slight problem, when in fact things are really bad). This type of communication is part of German culture of not beating around the bush and it can create problems with some people, even with some Germans who don’t like this kind of dialog. It might surprise you, but this “knowing the right way” kind of communication is a sign of respect. The receiver of communication is seen as a mature, well-informed partner or friend fully capable of disagreeing openly, if necessary.

I guess the way I communicate on Fluther might leave the impression you mentioned. But it’s really because I respect the Jellies who engage in debates I’m involved in too. I’m fully aware that I cannot always be right and I don’t want to be and I’m also capable of changing my mind when confronted with good arguments.

@mattbrowne Very interesting. I accept that explanation. Jewish people tend to be rather direct as well, and I think that has to partly do with use being from countries like Germany, Russia, Latvia, where people tend to be direct. We also feel it gives people a fair shot to explain themselves, to communicate better, and more honestly, although sometimes it comes across as harsh. I actually have been thinking about styles of communication a lot lately. I just wanted to point out that I did include Americans as tending to be that way also. I think in America we still have a lot of messages around us that we are great and our country is the greatest in the world, so certainly we can be criticized as well.

There is something about the orderliness (I hope that is a word) of Germany that is impressive, but at the same time eerie. When I was in Germany I had a good experience with the people, and always have with German-Americans, but there is an air of doing everything a certain way, the right way, with precision, and everyone follows along. Now, mind you when I was in Germany I was in a country my family never thought they would ever go to (this was about 25 years ago) but we wound up there on vacation because of the randomness of military flights.

A taxi driver told us how the Americans could be such a mess. The military men are sometimes unruly (which probably is true). We were in a beautiful part of Germany, in Bavaria actually. Green mountains, flowers on the window sills. I think if I went to Germany today I would feel much differently. Meaning the idea of the holocaust is long in the past. My experience was tainted in your country, because looking for clues kind of muddles the mind. It’s like if someone believes Arabs are dishonest, or Italians are loud, your brain picks up things that fit into the predisposition to think that way.

But, I have always had German friends since childhood, they or their parents came to America, and of course also know many people who are 3rd and further back German here in America and it has never been any sort of consideration.

@JLeslie – Orderliness, tidiness, discipline and so forth can be misused, the most horrible example being Hitler and his Nazi party. I often hear people saying Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and so forth were equally horrible, but there’s the difference. The chilling part to me and many others is the well-organized mass murder machine. It’s about the way the Nazi organized the mass murder in the concentration camp and elsewhere.

This will still haunt the Germans for the next centuries to come, no matter how everything changed after 1945. Whenever today’s Germans excel at something and some people are frustrated, they play the Nazi card. Merkel doesn’t want to cover the debt of Greece without conditions, so angry Greek demonstrators compare her with Adolf Hitler waving placards. When the German economy has problems (as it did between between 1995 and 2005 for example) Americans talk about the sick child of Europe with too much “socialism”. When the Germany economy is doing well, many Americans and Europeans are suddenly worried about Germany getting too strong and becoming a threat. They create (mildly) offensive Fluther questions like ‘Is Germany due for another attempt to invade the world?’. Remember Adolf Hitler!

There are actually countries with equal or more orderliness such as Switzerland, Norway or Singapore, but this doesn’t get noticed like Germany. And precision also plays an important role when you send people to the Moon which America managed to do. The everyone following along is also only half of the picture. In terms of corporate culture for example, American bosses are far more authoritarian than German bosses (I know this from experience).

About the anecdote with the taxi driver. I think a lot has to do with George W. Bush and his bullying stance in the years 2002 and 2003. He publicly humiliated Germany and France and a lot of people haven’t forgotten this. He and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all the other fanatics depicted both countries as wimps, or even worse as enemies, because you are either with us or you are against us. Rumsfeld was the boss of the American soldiers in Germany. His views trickled down. I think this was also the main reason why all Germans, even the very conservative ones, were so cheerful when Obama got elected in 2008. But some resentments still seem to linger.

@mattbrowne Yeah, what a horrible legacy to live down. It’s unfair to the people of Germany today, and for those who disagreed vehemently with Hitler when he was in control. I was taught long ago that part of being American was that in my country each person is an individual, judged on their own merit, and it doesn’t matter the family name, we are not trapped by our ancestors legacy. It doesn’t matter if your father was poor, you could be rich. It doesn’t matter if you family did criminal behavior, you did not have to carry that on your back. All created equal, with equal opportunity. The society does not perfectly function that way, but it was the idea I was raised with. So, in my mind, I think of Germans, everyone, in the same way, and when I meet someone from Germany today the thought of the Holocaust does not haunt me. Actually, in America I never felt haunted by it when I met Germans. No matter where I am I meet someone as an individual. But, being in your country many years ago, in the wee hours of the night, the thoughts did crowd in a little. What it would have been like, sleeping there, and soldiers bursting in to take me away. But, the majority of Americans would not think that at all. They don’t really identify with it in the same way. They don’t have the same fear, it is more abstract for them. I wouldn’t think about it at all if I went back to Germany I don’t think. We were planning a trip this past summer as you know, and it was cancelled. Hopefully, we will get there soon though.

The taxi driver was back before the wall came down many years ago when I was in Germany. We were near a military base, and my dad and I assumed the Germans were not very fond of seeing American military everywhere, military planes flying overhead regularly. We assumed it was a reminder of the war, more specifically that Germany lost, and who wants to have another country practically occupy your own.

I agree there are a lot of Americans with the word “socialism” coming out of their mouths. Mostly anti-Obama people. So, even within my country we, who are not afraid of all social systems, and actually want some here, get annoyed with those who throw around the word also. Those same people do indeed also criticize Europe for socialism and think it is a horrible thing to be afraid of. I remind you that in America a portion of the citizenry associates God, capitalism, Christianity, and America in one box. Any of those pieces go away and there is a threat to all things holy. Communism goes with atheism, and socialism is close to communism. It was why we added under God to our pledge of allegiance, to demonstrate we are not atheist communists. Some felt adding under God set us apart from other countries. Many Christians feel we are a blessed nation, blessed by God, special, unique. So, socialism rings of not being American to those people, and in turn being against what God would want for us. Which means socialism will displease God. It may cause God to turn away from America, or wreak havoc on us.

Funny, my husband races Porsches, we are around Porsche lovers all the time. They love the engineering of the cars, the precision. Most Americans in general admire the Germans for their efficient railroad system and how clean the country is. I remember one jelly saying to me that there basically aren’t Spanish Engineering words (he worked in Mexico) they are all German and English, because our countries did much of the innovations in engineering. In fact, I bet many of the American engineers and scientists, especially if we go back 50–100 years, were German. Of course, great scientific breakthroughs have come out of other countries also. Anyway, my point is, indeed America went to the moon, I guess we should give Russia some credit for their space program also. America values science and innovation as much as Germany I believe, even though there seems to be some antiscience Americans.

Moreover, being Jewish, when we see little hints of Nazi Germany in America we notice, we don’t think of it as only the German people have that in them. It is why so many Jewish people turned out to help the black people during civil rights. I think it is part of what attracts Jewish people to the law profession. Old Jewish stereotype that a Jewish mother wants her child to be a lawyer or a doctor. Justice and science.

In fact during the beginnings of my country Germans were ever present. Our Declaration of Independece was published in German in a German-American newspaper at the time it was written for our German speaking citizens. Here are some famous German Americans.

Sorry that was so long, yikes! But, I found your points very interesting and am enjoying the conversation. I hope I have not said anything offensive, that would never be my intent.

No, not at all, @JLeslie. Thank you very much for your wonderful post. I agree with everything you’re saying. I just take issue with the fact that in the media (including online and films), there’s a disproportionate part of relating modern Germany issues (such as the recent election) with Nazi Germany. I’ll give you another example:

Gilmore Girls Transcript: Cinnamon’s Wake (created in the year 2000)

LORELAI: So where’d you say Dad was?
GRANDMA: Away on business.
LORELAI: Location’s top secret?
GRANDMA: Oh, Germany.
LORELAI: Germany, is Dad’s firm insuring Nazi’s now.
GRANDMA: Your father doesn’t know any Nazis.
LORELAI: I know Mom, I was just -
GRANDMA: What?
RORY: Joking. She was joking.
GRANDMA: Oh, hard to tell.
LORELAI: Yeah, well.

Germans resent being compared with Nazi Germany again and again and again and again. Even in jokes. As if what happened between 1945 and 2013 is insignificant. Doesn’t matter.

During my years in the US in 1988 and 1989 every American I met treated me as a modern German and as an individual. No one thought of me having something to do with the holocaust. But when I turned on the television, the few instances related to Germany were about the Nazis (there was one exception in November 1989 when the Berlin wall came down).

I thought a bit more about the “when is Germany due for another attempt to invade the world” question? When you look at history, Germany actually never managed to invade much of the world, although the Nazis did certainly dream about it. Hitler succeeded in invading France, the Benelux and Scandinavian countries, parts of Eastern Europe including parts of Russia and small parts of Africa. But that’s it. There have been larger empires in history.

Is Greece due for another attempt to invade the world?
Alexander the Great ruled large parts of the world. I don’t know, but I don’t see that Antonis Samaras is going to start WWIII anytime soon. Do you?

Is Italy due for another attempt to invade the world?
The Roman Empire encompassed large parts of the world. I don’t know, but I don’t see that Enrico Letta is going to start WWIII anytime soon. Do you?

Is Saudi Arabia due for another attempt to invade the world?
The Islamic empires encompassed large parts of the world. I don’t know, but I don’t see that King Abdullah is going to start WWIII anytime soon. Do you?

Is Mongolia due for another attempt to invade the world?
The Mongol Empire encompassed large parts of the world. I don’t know, but I don’t see that Tsakhiagiin Elbegdorj is going to start WWIII anytime soon. Do you?

Is the United Kingdom due for another attempt to invade the world?
The British Empire encompassed large parts of the world. I don’t know, but I don’t see that David Cameron is going to start WWIII anytime soon. Do you?

Is France due for another attempt to invade the world?
The French Colonial Empire and Napoleonic Empire encompassed large parts of the world. I don’t know, but I don’t see that François Hollande is going to start WWIII anytime soon. Do you?

Is Japan due for another attempt to invade the world?
The Japanese Empire encompassed large parts of Asia. I don’t know, but I don’t see that Shinzō Abe is going to start WWIII anytime soon. Do you?

We don’t see questions like this. Fear of repetition seems to be narrowed down to Germany.

And while today’s Germany condemns what Hitler has done, today’s France still worship Napoleon and today’s Britain still worships all the kings and queens responsible for all the invasions which included murdering people in the American, Indian and African colonies and treating them as second-class citizens?

Double standards?

@mattbrowne I can see why the Gilmore girls conversation bothers Germans, but I will point out the Grandmother does say her husband is in Germany and does not know any Nazis. The humor escapes her, because she doesn’t relate the people her husband interacts with to the time of the Nazis. I think, possibly, because the Jewish people have worked very hard to keep the history of what happened alive, we say, “never fiorget,” (which I hear people now say about 9/11) and we make movies about it and have museums in America about the holocaust that in America the memory of WWII and the holocaust are not left to rest as some of the other things you mentioned in history. WWII is not just part of history class. Partly it has to do with half the worlds Jewish people living in America I would think. But, I would argue that at this point Jewish people don’t mean, never forget German people will kill you, it is never forget those lost and what can happen. Happen anywhere. Also, another message that comes from the holocaust is to stand up when we see something happen, to stand by silent is as bad as participating. in additon to never forget Jewish people also say, “never again.” This actually is felt more in Israel and their current foe. Jewish people have been accused of not fighting back (which many Jewish people resent) during the Nazis, and now the Israeli military is fierce. Sometimes people feel they are too brutal when they respond to antagonism.

Also, to go back to Gilmore Girls, it wouldn’t be surprising for Italians to be accused of being mafia (my SIL hated that. She is Mexican and was married to an Italian, and of course her children are half Italian). Also, we talk about the Russian mafia a lot now in our TV programming. There are other examples. Americans tend to key into these things, I think because we are such a melting pot with large waves of immigration.

Most of your examples I would agree with that Americans do not wonder about those countries starting another war, except the countries in the middle east. When things happen in the middle east, it is very common for Americans to worry about WWIII being sparked. We would be on the side of Israel, if it was a conflict involving Israel, and we feel some European countries would choose to be with the Arabs or Persians. France especially. Many negative things are said about the French, including WWII. I don’t know enough about the geopolitical aspects, I just know that is what people say, it might be based on little knowledge of the current state of the governments and people of the European countries. Knowing you, my guess is Germany would be very unlikely to side against America or with an Arab country, although they might just stay out of such a conflict.

Honestly, I think America mostly considers Germans to be similar to themselves. Germany, the Nordic countries, UK, partly because of the governments, partly because we feel culturally similar, and maybe partly because we “look” similar. Which I realize is horrific to say. I am not only talking about skin color and features, but also clothing, hair styles, etc. Of course there is some ridiculousness in the statement since so much of America has darker skin than the blond haired, blue eyed girl next door in apple pie America.

@JLeslie – Most modern Germans, especially the ones with a higher education and certainly all modern German politicians totally and absolutely and truly and without doubt support the “NEVER FORGET” approach. We even tell this to foreigners who say, well, it was a long time ago or let’s just focus on the future. We think that talking about history is extremely important. Whenever there is a discussion on Fluther about the Third Reich, I do welcome this and get involved. We should have plenty of these discussions.

I only take issue when people compare G. W. Bush or A. Merkel with Hitler. Or when people think an economically strong Germany threatens the rest of the world like Hitler did. Or when nutcases like Berlusconi compares Germans with Nazis. “On 2 July 2003, Berlusconi suggested that German SPD member of the European parliament Martin Schulz, who had criticised his domestic policies, should play a Nazi concentration camp guard in a film.” As for the Gilmore girls, unless a talk is about history or perhaps a hidden surviving Nazi today, I take issue with the script.

Germany also totally supports Israel and its right to exist with its citizens feeling completely safe. When Germans sometimes criticize policies of an Israeli government this has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic or “being against Israel”. Caring about the future of the Palestinians too has nothing to do with “being against Israel”.

You are right, there are plenty of other examples for unfair accusations against other countries as a whole or citizens of other countries. We should speak out against this too!

Thanks for engaging in this conversation with me !

@mattbrowne Just to clarify, my impression is The vast majority of Germans also are in the never forget mode. Especially having spent time on fluther with you and ragingloli that has been reinforced.

As far as Israel, I think often it probably looks like Americans don’t care about the Palestinians, and indeed some people are so pro Israel and so anti-Arab it is hard to think differently. Many people in the Christian right in America are extremely, even I would say blindly, in support of Israel. I see bumper stickers and other stuff on car bumpers and windows that show the driver supports Israel and then they also have the Christian fish on their car.

I do feel our Presidents and diplomats care about the Palestinian people, and much of America in general. They just want Israelis safe as a priority. You probably have noticed Israelis and Americans on fluther showing sympathy and understanding for the Palestinian perspective. I think most people just want peace. But, there is a feeling in America that the Palestinians don’t want peace, don’t want Israel to exist at all, and will not compromise. We often refer back to when Clinton came very close to brokering peace and then in the end it didn’t happen.

Yes, @JLeslie. Obama does. Most Democrats do. Decent Republicans (a minority now?) do. And of course there are wonderful Americans like Michael Lerner who have created a very realistic approach of how to solve the problem. I think every politician should read Michael Lerner’s book.