Social Question

ETpro's avatar

How do you get to Heaven?

Asked by ETpro (34605points) October 23rd, 2013

This discussion (0:24:40 video and while interesting, not required for the discussion) got me wondering.

The ancients who wrote the Bible wrote that Heaven was up in the sky. It was in The Heavens, the top layer of the firmaments above the Earth. The Sun, the Moon, the planets and the stars were each in their own dome as well. All this is dutifully recorded in Genesis 1. Hell (which wasn’t invented till the New Testament) was beneath the Earth. Humans thought they lived on a flat Earth back then. God seemed to think so too, because he was genuinely worried when the humans of Earth came together to build a tower to heaven.

Back when the optical lens was first invented, and used to make a telescope, the leaders of the Catholic Church were terrified and did all in their power to stop the device’s use. They feared that when humans looked more closely at “The Heavens” they would not see any place like Heaven up there. Indeed, that’s just what came to pass.

Church elders had to scramble to come up with a new model for Heaven’s location. That new model is a Heaven that sits outside spacetime, in a spiritual realm where science cannot ever explore. Hell moved there too. It’s no longer under the Earth. It turns out it is difficult to give meaning to “under” and “above” when you are dealing with an Earth that is not flat, but an oblate spheroid orbiting the Sun, which is itself orbiting the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.

And moving on from simple direction, there is the question of what sort of vehicle is required for the trip to Heaven. Nearly every one of the 3000 or so religions man has touted throughout all the ages has had its formula, or formulas, for what one must do and not do to get to Heaven. Among the three Abrahamic religions today, there is vigorous dispute.

Even in Christianity, the largest branch of the three, there are wildly conflicting views. Some say baptism will do it. Others say it’s necessary to be a good person and to pray, attend church and tithe. Still others claim that neither baptism nor good works can get you there. They instead maintain that only by believing in Jesus as your redeemer can you reach heaven. They say faith is enough to transport even a serial killer to Heaven. And then there are those who claim that neither faith, nor baptism, nor works will suffice; that God elects whom he will and we have no control in the matter. And there’s the claim that out of the “110 billion“http://www.faculty.rsu.edu/users/f/felwell/www/Theorists/EverLived.htm humans who have already lived, only 144,000, or 0.00013%, will make it to heaven. All the rest are doomed to eternal torture of unimaginable hideousness. All of these views can be “proven” by selecting the correct verse/s in the Bible.

Then there is the question of whether it’s really you who gets to Heaven to start with. I mean, you’re supposed to have free will when you get there, but be unable to do any wrong. How does that work? Am I still me if some super-being has purged my mind and turned me into an automaton only capable of worshiping the super-being and singing His praises? What if I don’t like doing that for an eternity? Can I leave?

And so this little question, “How do you get to Heaven.” turns out to be far tougher to answer than “How do you get to Carnegie Hall?”.

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73 Answers

thorninmud's avatar

Be easily contented.

ragingloli's avatar

Any orgasm will do.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I was raised to believe that you had to believe in & accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and mean it in order to get to Heaven.

After that, you try to emulate Jesus good works and open heart for the rest of your life. If you fail to live up to that by sinning, you can ask for forgiveness and if you are truly sorry, you will be forgiven.

downtide's avatar

In my opinion the only way to get to heaven is to create it in your life before you die.

tom_g's avatar

I was raised Catholic and was taught that no amount of sin would disqualify me from heaven – as long as I asked god for forgiveness prior to my death.

Jeruba's avatar

I’m afraid Woody Guthrie’s answer was the first thing that came to mind.

tom_g's avatar

@ETpro: “Then there is the question of whether it’s really you who gets to Heaven to start with.”

This is an important part of this question that I hope doesn’t get lost. However, it seems to be closely related to the recent soul question, which didn’t get serious attention.

kritiper's avatar

You are already there unless you want to get higher in altitude above the ground. You may need the use of a rocket, spacecraft, air plane, trampoline, or pogo stick.

flutherother's avatar

It’s simple. You walk up to the pearly gates, knock and ask to be let in. No one is turned away.

KNOWITALL's avatar

You know the really scary part is judgement! I was taught that God reviews your life in front of you and you have to watch all the crappy thing’s you did or did to others. I pictured the Native American Indian crying (about litterers) as God when I was a kid.

ragingloli's avatar

@KNOWITALL
And then I point out all the countless people God killed during the flood alone, and demand his throne. No matter how bad my life is/was/will be, it will still be better than his.

syz's avatar

Hike to the top of a mountain in cool fall weather surrounded by a wildfire of leaf color, to a view unimpeded by development or signs of humanity. Preferably accompanied by my dog. That’s heaven for me (small ‘h’, no such thing as capital ‘H’).

antimatter's avatar

My peace of heaven comes when I sit next to a lake and watch the sunset and listen to the night noises of nature just before the sun disappear beyond the horizon. I think heaven is when one find inner peace and beauty around them.
How to get heaven is up to you @ETpro because heaven is the inner peace you find within yourself.
On a funny note I can give you the the GP’s coordinates to Heaven of seven in Chicago.
Another heaven is in South Africa in the Cape province and coincidentally you’ll find Hell in the same province.

Kropotkin's avatar

The only heaven is the one we could create right here on Earth. It’s also the one in which the fewest people believe.

kess's avatar

@ETpro in all your years of learning, you have not yet learn the most basic of the thing you argue most against…

That is proving or disproving text ancient or otherwise only bind a man to the thread mill, where he can only see the moat in his brothers eyes while ignoring the beam in his own.

Heaven is not attained by effort, neither is a point in time, nor a place in space.

Heaven is the ever present now, of which both the past and the future has stolen and which you have entwined yourself and eagerly and continuously deceiving yourself.

picante's avatar

Step out on my back porch on a clear night and marvel at the magnificent sky above you; listen to the purring of the cat who is resting contentedly on the chair; chuckle at the dog trying to rouse a frog or toad from its hiding place; listen to the chirps and coos and caws of the critters in the valley below; enjoy a sip of cold champagne; and you have met me in heaven, where I go almost every evening.

antimatter's avatar

I go with @Michael_Huntington, cheesecake is a slice of heaven itself!

tom_g's avatar

Can someone translate @kess‘s comment? I don’t mean this as a criticism. I just don’t understand what it says.

OneBadApple's avatar

Tom, I believe @kess ‘s point is that many people might be wasting their time in “Heaven” (meaning right now) while waiting for some future entrance through magical Pearly Gates, which may or may not actually exist.

I know for certain that today exists, and I am in Heaven right now. Here. In fluther. Later, I will go upstairs and play my guitar, and be in Heaven. Again.

tom_g's avatar

@OneBadApple – So, @kess doesn’t believe in a literal heaven. Rather, his heaven is simply the experience of living the only life we have here in the present right now? Are we sure that’s what he’s saying here?

@OneBadApple: “Later, I will go upstairs and play my guitar, and be in Heaven. Again.”

But this is specifically what @ETpro is asking. How do you get to that heaven. What is the answer to this?

Strauss's avatar

@tom_g , when @kess says thread mill, I believe what is meant is treadmill: there are also biblical references: moat (mote) in his brother’s eye… see Matt 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? all bible quotes from New International Version

That being said, I think @kess is saying that heaven is not of this world, and can not be described or conceived of by those of us who have not experienced it.

In 1 Corinthians, 2:9, it is stated
… as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” the things God has prepared for those who love him

tinyfaery's avatar

I hear there is a stairway somewhere and also a road.

“Above all things
if kindness is your king
then heaven will be yours
before you reach your end.”

Strauss's avatar

There’s a lady who knows all that glitters is gold…

glacial's avatar

You will get two sorts of answers here, because of the way you set up your question. Baptism is not actually a vehicle, and it can’t navigate the path from the graveyard to the location of Heaven. Baptism (or replace this with whatever a specific religion requires of its believers) is a criterion for acceptance into Heaven. How the soul is conveyed there is a different question entirely.

No doubt you will say you are interested in both – but I think the latter question will be ignored because it is a difficult one, and because it is related to the idea that @tom_g pointed out.

@tom_g I believe @kess‘s answer is a longer version of @thorninmud.‘s

Skaggfacemutt's avatar

Hang a right at Albequerque.

glacial's avatar

@Skaggfacemutt No, you should have taken a left!

Blondesjon's avatar

I have no clue but I do know that my Grandmother, a very devout Methodist, always claimed you could not fly to Heaven on a bottle.

she would not be cool with my alcohol consumption

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Blondesjon I get an automatic visual of her since I grew up in church with all the older ladies coddling me, I bet she was a great person. :)

ucme's avatar

According to that mad midget bitch in the Poltergeist films, you’re guided into the light.
So essentially, if i’ve got this right, dead folks are like fucking moths, flapping about the place with a hard on for the glow. Dead people…really weird!

Pachy's avatar

Oy!—this gem again.

Well, others are welcome to believe that the afterlife holds for them an unimaginably glorious heaven or an unimaginably awful hell. But my belief is that there is no afterlife except how we are remembered for the good or evil we do throughout our lives.

starsofeight's avatar

There have been children who argued the existence of adulthood—and yet, they all became what they could not fathom. Adulthood was an issue in which they had no experience, and for which they had no basis for comparison.

Christ said the kingdom was both inside and outside. Perhaps the way to heaven runs through our minds. We just can’t imagine it yet because we have no basis for comparison.

ragingloli's avatar

@starsofeight
Yeah no. Children see adults walking around all the time. They talk to them, they get slapped around by them. Their existence is constantly, independently verified by experiment and observation.
Religion has nothing. at. all.

Michael_Huntington's avatar

This question makes me rage
WHY WON’T YOU ACCEPT BROTHULHU AS YOUR MASTER

longgone's avatar

I don’t believe in God, but I’ve always assumed that heaven is not considered an actual place. A dream, more like. To quote Dumbledore: ”Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

So, if I believed there is a heaven, I would argue that as it is not a physical place, there is no need for directions.

@starsofeight I have never heard a child say he does not believe adults exist.

filmfann's avatar

Belief in Jesus Christ, and accepting him as your personal savior.
Source: John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Smart ass answer: Look in the dictionary, between Heave and Heavy.

PhiNotPi's avatar

Based on the previous answers, nobody completely agrees.

Strauss's avatar

@PhiNotPi I think because nobody really knows, except those who might think believe they know on faith.

ETpro's avatar

@kess You are pointing out the beam in my eye as proof that’s all I see. How do you remain so happily immune to your own hypocrisy? Perhaps it is heaven to feel so self righteous.

OneBadApple's avatar

It is. It really is….

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Sorry, once again… “Heaven” is a state of mind.

The warrior approached the monk asking:
“Great Master. Teach me the nature of Heaven and Hell.”

The monk replied:
“A worthless dog such as you could never understand such great concepts.”

The warrior enraged, pulled his sword:
“Prepare to die monk, for your insult shall not be tolerated.”

The monk looked up and smiled:
“Now, you are in Hell.”

The warrior, realizing his mistake, fell to his knees:
“Forgive me master, for I have sinned against you.”

The monk looked up and smiled:
“Now, you are in Heaven.”

ragingloli's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies
The last sentence should have been “Now, you are a dog.”

ETpro's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies If I have to first threaten to murder, then grovel before some mere human to get there, I’m not going. I suspect a great number of my fellow Jellies have already assumed I won’t be there. That’s OK because I assume they won’t be either. :-)

Strauss's avatar

If Heaven is like a club, I would rather emulate Groucho. I wouldn’t want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member!

ETpro's avatar

@Yetanotheruser Groucho was so profound. :-)

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

Certainly we’re all speaking tong and cheek here in the social section… I find it difficult to accept that my intelligent friends failed to grasp the lesson of the ancient eastern wisdom, which has nothing to do with threats, murder, or groveling.

Can any of us not think back to a time when we genuinely came to realize that our pride, combined with a temptation to judge quickly to defend it, served to stand in the way of understanding? And upon that realization, we genuinely came to a “place” in our heart of true sorrow for having been so prideful and judgmental, to the degree where we sought forgiveness from the one we had offended?

I probably go to hell and heaven multiple times per week. Being so consumed in my own life importance that I my pride blinds me to the social structures around me. Realizing that, I say “sorry mom, I didn’t mean that”… and go straight to heaven.

ETpro's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Granted. And a nice, metaphorical way of looking at it. But of course the question dealt with getting to a real place that most definitely isn’t where we are in the here and now.

Strauss's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Rumor has it that it was pride that caused the fall of the Angels…

RealEyesRealizeRealLies's avatar

I’m not so sure ET. Jesus constantly spoke of “heaven” in a metaphorical way. I can’t help it if Christianity butchered the teachings of Christ to make us think that heaven is a real physical place.

Mathew 13:24
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
”‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
”‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field.
Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”

ETpro's avatar

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies If you think that those parables point to a metaphorical understanding of Heaven they you are reading them in a very different way than I do. I don’t care to play “Cherry pick the scriptures” with you. I know what you believe, and you will defend it by any means. That’s understandable. But Christ spoke of Heaven and Hell as VERY real places in scripture after scripture. To pick a couple where enough hand waving might mitigate that meaning is meaningless.

GrandmaC's avatar

I have no idea how I got to this dimension of my existence. I don’t think I found my way here. I rather think God did that for me. I trust when the time comes, he’ll do it again. I like to think that he’ll send angels to fly me to Heaven.

OneBadApple's avatar

Not if you don’t start capitalizing the pronouns for His name, He won’t….

GrandmaC's avatar

Gosh, I didn’t realize we could get sent to Hell on a grammar rap. :(

ETpro's avatar

@GrandmaC Yep, pretty much anything. Because he loves you. And so he has predestined you for eternal torture.

OneBadApple's avatar

…..and don’t bother packing your asbestos pajamas. Ain’t gonna help….

GrandmaC's avatar

No, he didn’t predestine anyone for torture. Predestination is not a Catholic concept. That is a Calvinist belief and contrary to mainstream Christianity.

ETpro's avatar

@GrandmaC It’s in the Bible, though. Do you base your entire faith on a book yet reject large parts of it because it’s patently absurd?

GrandmaC's avatar

Predestination is not in the Bible.

ETpro's avatar

@GrandmaC Before I thought the BS through and became an atheist, I actually went to Bible college. I know what the Bible says. I hate to do cut and pastes, but this is too important to leave unchallenged. This comes from Bible Verses about Predestination

“Romans 8:28–30 – And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. (Read More…)”

“Ephesians 1:5 – Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

“John 6:44 – No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

“Ephesians 1:4–5 – According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Read More…)”

“Ephesians 1:4 – According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

“Romans 8:29 – For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

“1 Peter 1:20 – Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”

“Acts 13:48 – And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

“Acts 2:23 – Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

“1 Peter 1:2 – Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

“James 1:18 – Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

“2 Timothy 1:9 – Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

“Titus 1:1 – Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God“s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;”

“Colossians 3:12 – Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;”

“John 15:19 – If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.”

“2 Peter 3:9 – The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

“Ephesians 1:11–12 – In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Read More…)”

“1 Corinthians 1:24–26 – But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (Read More…)”

“Romans 11:1–36 – I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. (Read More…)”

“Romans 8:33 – Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God“s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.”

“Acts 17:26 – And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;”

“John 15:16 – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

“John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

“Mark 4:10–12 – And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. (Read More…)”

“Genesis 21:12 – And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.”

“Revelation 13:8 – And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

“1 John 2:2 – And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.”

“Romans 11:5 – Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

“Revelation 11:1–19 – And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. (Read More…)”

“2 Peter 1:10 – Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”

“Hebrews 10:26–27 – For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Read More…)”

“Hebrews 2:9 – But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

“Titus 1:2 – In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

“2 Thessalonians 2:13 – But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

“1 Thessalonians 2:12 – That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.”

“1 Thessalonians 1:4 – Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.”

“Ephesians 2:10 – For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

“Ephesians 1:11 – In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:”

“Ephesians 1:9–11 – Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (Read More…)”

“Ephesians 1:1–23 – Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Read More…)”

“Galatians 1:15 – But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother“s womb, and called [me] by his grace,”

“1 Corinthians 1:26–29 – For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: (Read More…)”

“Romans 11:26 – And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

“Romans 11:8 – (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.”

“Romans 10:13 – For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

“John 6:45 – It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

“John 6:39 – And this is the Father“s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

“John 6:37 – All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

“Luke 10:20 – Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

“Luke 4:25–27 – But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; (Read More…)”

“Luke 1:32 – He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:”

“Matthew 25:41 – Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

“Matthew 25:31–34 – When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Read More…)”

“Micah 4:2 – And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”

“Ezekiel 37:1–28 – The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which [was] full of bones, (Read More…)”

“Isaiah 11:10–11 – And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. (Read More…)”

“Proverbs 16:4 – The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

“Jude 1:4 – For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“Hebrews 6:4–6 – For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (Read More…)”

“1 Timothy 4:10 – For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

“Ephesians 3:11 – According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”

“1 Corinthians 2:7 – But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”

“Romans 16:13 – Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.”

“Romans 11:7 – What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”

“Romans 9:13 – As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

“Romans 9:12 – It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.”

“Romans 9:7–33 – Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Read More…)”

“Romans 8:29–30 – For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Read More…)”

“Romans 5:18 – Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.”

“Romans 1:6 – Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”

“Acts 22:14 – And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.”

“Acts 4:28 – For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

“Acts 3:18 – But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.”

“Acts 2:47 – Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

“Acts 2:39 – For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

“Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

“Acts 2:21 – And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

“Acts 1:7 – And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.”

“John 21:23 – Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?”

“John 17:9 – I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”

“John 17:6 – I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

“John 17:2 – As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

“John 14:6 – Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

“John 13:18 – I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.”

“John 12:32 – And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.”

“John 3:1–8 – There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: (Read More…)”

“Luke 22:22 – And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!”

“Luke 19:11–27 – And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. (Read More…)”

“Luke 18:7 – And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?”

“Luke 17:34–35 – I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (Read More…)”

“Luke 8:10 – And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.”

“Luke 4:16 – And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.”

“Mark 14:21 – The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.”

“Mark 13:22 – For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.”

“Mark 13:20 – And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect“s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

“Mark 2:28 – Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.”

“Matthew 26:24 – The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.”

“Matthew 25:34 – Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”

“Matthew 24:41 – Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

“Matthew 24:40 – Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

GrandmaC's avatar

None of that is about predestination as taught by Calvinists.

I am leaving for the airport in just a couple of minutes. I will be in a car the rest of the day. I’ll be glad to discuss it with you when I get to the hotel. There’s too many on your list to cover all of them. We have to put them back into context.

Did you attend a Calvinist Bible college?

GrandmaC's avatar

Okay,I have a few minutes while waiting for the plane. It will likely be late tonight before I have computer time again and maybe not until tomorrow. I don’t discuss isolated verses taken out of context but complete stories. I notice that several of your verses come from Romans 5 through 12. We might start there.

I looked over your list and I really can’t see how you consider these verses to support predestination even out of context.

GrandmaC's avatar

None of the verses you listed say that God created some people for Heaven and others for Hell, which is what Calvinism is. Unless you wish to explain why you think one of the verses on your list does say that, there’s not anything to discuss.

Strauss's avatar

Second star to the right…and straight on ‘til morning!

OneBadApple's avatar

Practice, son. Practice.

( Oops, sorry, no…..that’s how you get to Carnegie Hall….)

ETpro's avatar

@GrandmaC If you can’t read them and figure out what they say, nothing I could ever say would have any impact on you. Some, I agree, are obscure. But many are brutally blunt. BTW, I can quote a similar number of scriptures that say that we are not predestined. And if I went to that trouble you would insist—by hand waving and special pleading like your invoking Calvanism as the one and only standard for discussion—that the verses did not conflict but were entirely consistent with one another. I don’t have time for such blather.

GrandmaC's avatar

I do not study isolated verses. I read and study the Bible in context. Your cut and paste from a Calvinist web site has a lot of isolated verses out of context. You proved nothing.

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