How many liberal Americans are aware that the US is currently losing the trust of the few allies the country has left?

It just reinforced the position that our politicians are arseholes, too.
Just a few months ago, when it was revealed that the Colonies spied on German citizens, Hans Peter Friedrich traveled abroad, came back and actually had the nerve to try to justify the massive NSA espionage.
Now that their Queen Merkel has been spied on, NOW they are suddenly outraged.
It makes me want to go to Berlin and smash their bloody heads into the wall.

Your over-generalized question to “liberal Americans” smacks of a gross lack of understanding.

Yes, we read.

Yes, we understand.

Yes, we are alarmed.

Yes. we are appalled.

Yes, we want the disgusting NSA to stop its illegal intrusive abuses into our lives and all others.

Are you, @mattbrowne, even aware of the complex nature of American culture?

The only news reports I (a US citizen) currently tune in to is the BBC. When a meeting is being held in Brussels to discuss the US’s activity, as it is now, then yes, global credibility is being lost.

For what it’s worth, I’m only still here because I can’t afford to bribe another country to take me in.

Of the people I know, about 80% are liberals. In that group, I’d guess that only about 20% read non-sports news. So, based on my tiny (and youth-skewed) sample size: not nearly as many as ought to, but still a decent number.

I’d love to see a study about news awareness in liberals vs conservatives. All the news junkies I know are socially liberal. I somehow can’t imagine social conservatives being so well-informed – I figure that if they ever were, they’d be liberals already.

As to how concerned are they and keen to change things and rebuild trust? – I haven’t asked anyone I know, but if I had to guess I’d say, highly concerned and quite keen.

@mattbrowne Do people in other countries seriously think the NSA is the only one doing it? They were the ones who got caught and did not do away with the whistle blower within seconds. China has one of the largest networks on the planet. They are staffed with enough people they would make the NSA swoon. They too are recording what you write and say. It’s just that you would be hard pressed to find a whistle blower there since they, and their families, would not be free long.
You should figure there are always at least 5 participants on any overseas call you make. You, the person you called, the NSA, China and your own country. Yep. Germany has number too.
I don’t believe this is a Liberal or Conservative issue. It is a lack of awareness.

I’m cynical enough to figure that everyone does it, we just got caught.

When did this start/originate? Does it have anything to do with the Patriot Act?

@mattbrowne i realized I did not answer your original question. Here is a data point for you.
Our newspaper is split into 4 secions: A – State, Local and town, B – World and US news, C – Fluff (fashion, comics, recipes) D – sports.

The front page of the B section has an article entitle “EU may act over U.S. spy reports”, with a dateline “Berlin”. “Confidence in th US has been shaken..” It is “suggested that Europe develop its own digital tools such as a “European Data cloud” independent of the US.”
So the EU will get into the business on their own now.

Look how we let Google into our shorts. Run Collusion or Ghostery on your PC and see where your info goes.
Biggest offender in my book is Alibaba and China. runa search fora product need or service and you are sending your info directly to their manufacturers. How else do you think they manage to always undercut prices by such a small margin.

i don’t know the business you are in. Don’t tell me. But if you are in the position to do so, run some honey pot experiments. It will make you sick. The US may have the same info but they don’t seem to do anything with it.

Here are two examples. Remember the Monicle Blowinski case 15+ years ago? I was in another country. I had someone from my host country ask me seriously about the situation. He said he did not understand how the most powerful man in the most powerful country in the world could not just have her killed or taken away immediately when this surfaced. How could he let the country be shamed so much? I explained that the US has the capability but does not use it.
In the case of Ear ache Snow down he could have been taken out within seconds, car accident, random shooting, drug overdose, etc. The US did nothing with the info.

I am a nobody but if asked I’d tell the members of the EU to chill. Their biggest enemy and the one who will eventually bring their economy to its knees is china. they act on the information they steal.

I would say that most people are aware. The thing is, the way our political system is set up breeds a certain sort of cynicism. Vote out the people who allowed this to happen, and they will be replaced with more of the same. Try to elect people who won’t allow this to happen and they will get trounced at the voting booth by the deep pockets of candidates from the two major parties who can afford to sling enough mud to render any third-party bids at power doomed from the start. (The one exception was Ross Perot; being a billionaire has it’s perks. Yet, even he got less than 30% of the popular vote.)

The only way to really change the state of affairs would be a full-on revolution. Think how destabilizing that would be; having one of the major superpowers thrown into chaos.

@LuckyGuy Actually, they probably would be free…. free from worrying about that whole breathing thing, Death can be quite liberating.

I have not been watching much politics or international news and I hadn’t realized how serious this might be. I think all governments do this sort of thing to some extent, so I did not pay much attention. My mother told me several months ago that the Russian government now is doing a lot of communication on paper, because they feel the US can see electronic communication and they don’t trust it. I guess it is more than just the Russians being paranoid.

I don’t think it is a liberal v. conservative issue, but I do understand why you directed the Q at liberals. I am not sure what I think. Does trusting our allies mean we don’t listen in? I think it is very tricky in the world today. We are so Big Brother now. Seems like everyone should just assume anything and everything can be watched and recorded.

@Hawaii_Jake Why are you so offended? @mattbrowne used to live in America. He doesn’t live here now and is asking what the perception is in the US now about these matters. He never makes any blanket statements about Americans being ignorant, and I don’t think he is now.

Ugh! I thought I had time to edit. I am sorry for all the typos.

I heard about Angela Merkel’s phone being tapped as well as the general spying in Europe. I am pretty down on this administration right nowand had such high regard for Obama at one point. The roll-out of the health care software is also disgraceful.

@ragingloli – I totally agree with you. Merkel’s aid Ronald Pofalla declared that the NSA affair was no problem and that it was over, despite the fact that the NSA keeps spying on 82 million Germans. Now Merkel knows how this feels like. Her outrage comes late, but the outrage is still justified. Merkel and the French President Hollande can’t talk on the phone without the NSA listening to everything they say. This is absurd.

@LuckyGuy I find it amusing that you separated “Fluff” and “Sports” into separate sections.

I thought the NSA’s upskirt shots of Princess Haya of Jordan were the height of bad taste of course, but completely within character. Amazing satellite technology.

@Hawaii_Jake – To a certain extend I am aware of the complex nature of the American culture. I lost complete faith in the Republican Party and their voters. They have become lunatics destroying their own country. But I still have hope when it comes to the Democrats and their voters. And the Independents of course. Only they can force Obama to change the policies. The CIA and the NSA are important. Every democratic country needs organizations like them. Democracies are threatened by totalitarian states and by terrorists, especially Islamist terrorists. But the NSA isn’t an independent entity which creates its own rules. I don’t see any reason to bug the offices of the EU in Brussels. I don’t see any reason to listen to what Merkel is saying on the phone. She doesn’t call Al Qaeda.

The NSA has become a uncontrollable monster and it destroys the credibility of the US in Germany, France, Italy, Mexico, Brasil and in all the other European and Latin American countries. We have a common enemy: Al Qaeda. We should fight them and not fight each other. Friends should treat friends like friends. Friendship needs trust. The NSA lied to Merkel and all the other victims.

Only an official apology by Obama would now make a difference. Otherwise the political relationships are doomed for the foreseeable future.

@mattbrowne
You can forget any sort of official apology from Obama, because that would show more foreign policy weakness to the republicans.

@LuckyGuy – The BND (German CIA) doesn’t listen when Obama calls Kerry or Cameron. The BND doesn’t bug the American Congress. Neither do the French or the Mexican secret services. The Chinese might try, yes. But they are a totalitarian state who also think it was okay to kill 2000 Chinese people in 1989. They don’t respect privacy or privacy laws. They are evil, so we can expect evil.

@glacial I think the newspaper tried to split it to typically female and male sections. I don’t bother with the D section at all.

@mattbrowne How do you know? Would someone from bee and dee ever be dumb enough to speak publicly? Do you really think they are not stationed at the embassy in DC? ~Besides, any information they heard in congress would only be useful as fodder for the comedy shows TV Total or Switch reloaded.~ ;-)
Information is traded between friends now. It is naive to think any conversation in Brussels or Washington for that matter is not being recorded. For decades the big boys have been using laser-doppler recording through windows and surfaces. Now there is the internet and anyone can do it.
Here’s a thought for you. How much would you bet there are no German bugs in the US embassy at Praiser Platz? I’m guessing – not much.

The US is great at sweeping up everything. They don’t care about conversations. If you want to catch important stuff you grab it all, and filter. then you must act. China acts.

@LuckyGuy Just sayin’. Just because it’s “marketed for boys” doesn’t mean it’s not also fluff.

I would suspect that people to the liberal side of the political spectrum are more aware of that than those on the conservative side. I find that left-leaning folks tend to look at things more globally and long-range and that the righty-tighties are more short term and nationalistic in their perspective.

As bad as the US is in terms of surveillance, Britain surpasses it.

@glacial I don’t want to derail this great thread. I agree with you. They both are fluff: pink and blue fluff. The ads in the C section are for shows, restaurants and haunted hay rides for the kids. The ads in the D section are for tires and garage repairs.

@elbanditoroso Yep. They are smarter about it.

I don’t really know exactly who the liberals are supposed to be in this question. People who are politically engaged and with above average intellect? They are probably aware.

I would be interested to know if the rest of the world differentiates between the D’s and the R’s. My gut instinct says no, they don’t, and I would say that they are correct. Both parties are pieces of the same dysfunctional system.

Perhaps if we went back to being a beacon of light in the world instead of trying to become the overlords. You know, maybe lead by example instead of the “Don’t do as I do, do as I say” method.

How do we do that? Perhaps we could start by the people taking back our government and having some say in the governance and demanding real accountability, including holding ALL members of the government up to the same high moral standards and not making allowances for misdeeds done by one of your own party why hypocritically crying foul on the other.

Of course, to accomplish this we would first have to be able to decide what are acceptable standards and actions and I don’t see that happening any time soon. We can’t even decide what the purpose of the government actually is.

As a nation we truly are of two different minds, one side says “Live and let live” and the other that says “We’ll put a boot in your ass, it’s the American way”. Unfortunately it is the latter that has held sway for a long time now, perhaps it is time to try it the other way and see what happens.

@rojo: nothing about politics is dichotomous. Every actor has his/her own motivations, values, and preferences.

The rest of the world generally prefers Democrats to Republikans. It’s mainly because Democrats are saner and smarter, not because they’re right about very much. In a poll from last year, nearly every country preferred Obama to Schitt Romney. The two glaring exceptions were Israel and Pakistan, who, going back to my point above, each had their own motivations.

I think most liberals who care don’t rely on uS news agencies for all their news.
Personally I follow BBC and Al Jezzera as well as some American news outlets.

And of course Every Liberals favorite news organization is reporting on it.

@Judi
It slows the voice down for me, now it sounds like a really low demon voice.

That’s because the NSA has to slow it down to track our intercontinental communication

@mattbrowne Given the stuff that private citizens post on YouTube, it’d be ludicrous to think that a government organization with the least little bit of interest in any sort of intelligence gathering wouldn’t be doing stuff like this. I mean, it makes me wonder what else they don’t know. Do they know the sky is darker at night than during the day? Fire is hot, and water is wet, but I’m pretty sure they don’t know that either.

Look, there are certain truths of modern life that many accepted decades ago. And if it were like we were the only one doing it, maybe some outrage would be warranted. But if the rest of the world wants to pretend this is 1913 instead of 2013 and do the the pot calling the kettle black thing, then c’est la vie. Where is the outrage against the China, North Korea, and most especially the UK?

We’re all on the long, downward spiral.

I’ve been thinking I’d like to live in a Scandinavian somewhere, as a refugee.

@jerv
Those countries do not claim to be the world’s shining beacon of freedom and democracy, the proverbial pearl among swine.

@mattbrowne I don’t know what percentage of American liberals understand the damage our war mongering, bullying and spying has done, but I can assure you of this. It is a vastly larger number that those on the right here who falsely call themselves conservatives when they are in fact rabid right-wing revolutionaries. If the leopard is to change its spots, it will be liberals doing it, not the Con Men.

We were attacked in 2001, and this is the response. Obama would like to dial this down, but it will take some time, and the acceptance that dismantling this shit may result in new attacks not being discovered.
I get it. I know how we appear. We will get it fixed, eventually. Hopefully, Obama isn’t Michael Corleone.

@filmfann Then why were we doing as much of this as technology allowed in the 1980s? And 1960s? And 1940s?

To me these are the important questions:

Does Obama control the NSA?
Does the NSA control Obama?
Do the American people control the NSA?
Does the NSA control the American people?
Does the United States respect other countries?
Can other countries still rely on the United States as a true democracy without rogue organizations beyond the rule of law?

Perhaps this is an explanation of what is happening: The ultra-conservatives dominating the Republican Party don’t respect other countries. Europe is seen as a place full of evil socialism, widespread health insurance and labor laws a clear proof. So the US is surrounded by enemies. Foreign politicians can’t be trusted. At least 80% of the NSA’s top management share this ultra-conservative attitude. Obama getting elected and re-elected was seen as a major disaster, so damage control is imperative. Lying in the name of the cause is a good thing. The NSA got a license to lie to everybody, doesn’t it?

So what can Obama do? Probably nothing, as pointed out earlier in this thread. If he apologizes, it’d show more foreign policy weakness to the Republicans. If he fires some of the top NSA managers, they would accuse him of helping the terrorist cause.

Just to be clear, I am upset about Merkel reacting so late. I am upset about how Obama is handling the issue. This is a serious political issue. I am concerned about our transatlantic alliance. It’s our common Western culture that gave birth to the universal fundamental human rights. The Tea Party is probably the most serious threat to America’s democracy since the time of Joseph McCarthy’s witch hunt with almost everybody being a suspect. Now we have a new witch hunt going on with everybody being a suspect. This is not the society I want to live in. And I know that all independent and liberal forces (and the few moderate republican forces that are left) in America don’t want such societies either. I care very much about the United States and I’ve said so numerous times here on Fluther. Criticism is a normal part of an intact democracy. Edward Snowden did the right thing. Revealing criminal activity is not a crime. It’s an honorable deed. He’s a hero. A policemen with a conscience who makes criminal activity going on inside his police department public is a hero too. And his police department can be fixed. We need the police. Bad behavior doesn’t mean abolishing the police. But we need rules. And rules must be enforced. Policemen have to follow rules. And so does the NSA.

@LuckyGuy – How do I know the BND doesn’t do what the NSA does? Of course I can’t be 100% certain. But with a history of the Gestapo in the Third Reich and the Stasi in East Germany, Germany’s lawmakers and governments are very, very careful about what is allowed and what is not. There are committees with elected representatives supervising the BND. They would never want to risk the BND going rogue and show the world that Germany can’t be trusted. Imagine the worldwide headlines.

@bolwerk – To me right now the Republicans don’t matter in this context, because they won’t be part of the solution. Most of them don’t care about the UN or what people in the European countries think. These matters are not on their agenda. I can even imagine many of them smiling when reading about Merkel’s phone being tapped. Probably a damned socialist anyway. Didn’t she grow up in East Germany?

@elbanditoroso – Just for the record: German politicians are pissed about the British secret service too. They have gone far beyond spying on terrorists and criminals and dictators too. Conservative forces in the UK don’t trust continental Europe either.

@jerv – Just because it’s easier to copy bits and bytes in 2013 compared to paper in 1913 doesn’t mean we give up all rules for the spying business. It would be wrong to say that privacy laws are a thing of the past in the digital age. Just because we have the computer power to monitor every cell phone call doesn’t mean we use this power. There must be limitations, especially for what is going on between allied countries. This might be a good approach for the next steps:

“Here is a round-up of what some of the EU’s leaders said about the surveillance scandal at the EU summit yesterday. Angela Merkel, German chancellor: It’s become clear that for the future, something must change – and significantly. We will put all efforts into forging a joint understanding by the end of the year for the co-operation of the [intelligence] agencies between Germany and the US and France and the US, to create a framework for the co-operation … It’s not just about me but about every German citizen. We need to have trust in our allies and partners, and this trust must now be established once again. I repeat that spying among friends is not at all acceptable against anyone, and that goes for every citizen in Germany.

The United States has a “no-spying” deal with Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, an alliance known as “Five Eyes” that was formed after the second world war. But there has traditionally been a reluctance to make similar arrangements with other allies. Merkel said: We are in Afghanistan together. Our soldiers experience life threatening situations. They sometimes die in the same battle. The friendship and partnership between the European member states, including Germany, and the United States is not a one-way street. We depend on it. But there are good reasons that the United States also needs friends in the world.

Francois Hollande, French president: What is at stake is preserving our relations with the United States. They should not be changed because of what has happened. But trust has to be restored and reinforced.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/21/nsa-files-live-coverage-developments-reaction

@filmfann – The 911 mass murder has changed the US and everybody understands that. Similar events on a smaller scale also happened in Madrid and London. Wounds heal very slowly.

A horrible crimes takes place when a woman gets raped. Some of the victims will never ever trust men again. All men become potential enemies. Other victims are able to distinguish between good men and bad men. I hope the United States – because of 911 – won’t distrust all men and remain capable of recognizing the good men. But unfortunately, right now the NSA shows distrust against everybody.

@ETpro – Very true, indeed.

@mattbrowne You seem to underestimate the lag between technology and policy. Kevin Mitnick was held without trial or even charges for years, and he was barred from even using a phone because a judge honestly beleived (and convinced others) that he could just whistle into the phone, hack into Russian defense computers, and launch a nuclear attack! No bullshit!

Now, tell me, Matt; do you honestly expect a legal system like that to make rational decisions? Fair decisions? Decisions that respect the rights of others?

As for a spirit of cooperation, our recent government shutdown should tell you how we are about that; we won’t even cooperate with ourselves! What makes you think that we’ll cooperate with those that a fairly large and powerful portion of our government sees as Socialist terrorists that want to destroy ‘Murica and our vastly superior way of life? Y’all respect religions other than Christianity, give healthcare to the non-elite, and expect billionaires to pay taxes, so y’all must be evil!~

You are correct to compare the current situation to McCarthyism, as there are some parallels. Just don’t compare 2013 America to sanity, since we don’t really have any of that here any longer.

@jerv – The legal system forbids policemen to torture suspects. At least in your country and my country. And I’m proud of that. Thousands of policemen make rational decisions and obey the rules. They are trained to control their impulses. They might fantasize about torturing a suspected rapist, but that’s it. A few policemen don’t make rational decisions. They don’t respect the rights of their suspects. Some of them get caught and thrown out of the police force.

We need to find out what’s going on inside the NSA. Who stuck by the rules and who didn’t.

I think you seriously overestimate police morality in America, @mattbrowne.

Is there real evidence for massive law breaking by the American police forces, @Seek_Kolinahr? It’s a great theme for Hollywood, I know.

The dichotomy between reality and fantasy can be amusing at times.

Murder, rape, and speeding are all also forbidden. They all still happen. The fact that they happen despite laws forbidding them is proof enough that merely having rules/laws is absolutely no guarantee that people will behave as desired.

Think about that for a bit. What makes police, government agencies, what-have-you different? Last I checked, they were Homo Sapiens just like you, me, the Pope, and Saddam Hussein. Realistically, why would the NSA or police be more likely to obey rules than criminals?

I’m not saying governments, police forces, secret services and so forth have no black sheep. There will always be people who break the law. Homo sapiens is an imperfect species. The question is, are we talking about isolated incidents? Or are there large-scale systems behind all that which require correction? At some point McCarthyism came to an end, because it was no longer tolerated. This is what this is about. Not a fantasy world without crime. I’m not that idealistic.

We need clear rules for the spying business. What goes and what doesn’t. And we need to enforce these rules.

Just had to check since I deal with many people who are that idealistic.

And I would say that it’s systemic. It’s too common and too cyclical to be mere statistical aberrations.

I have plenty of anecdotal evidence in my own life, @mattbrowne. However, since it’s the police that write the police reports, and crimes by police are investigated by former officers, there probably isn’t much data on paper. History written by the powerful.

Who watches the watchers….

@Seek_Kolinahr – I’m very sorry to hear that. I really hope it’s the exception in America. Some of the police misconduct has to do with cost cutting, when there’s too much crime to be fought against. The police becomes a victim too. During my time as a student in the US as well as during my business trips and as a tourist, American policemen were always friendly without exception. But that’s anecdotal evidence too, of course.

@jerv – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_affairs_(law_enforcement)#

There must be an authority inside and outside the NSA with a similar function, right? And there’s oversight exercised by Congress, isn’t there?

Democracies work well, when there’s effective checks and balances.

@jerv
Only the occasional whistle blower like Snowden or Manning.
Unfortunately, the demagogues decry them as traitors.

Most of the problems in my area come from too many cops and very little actual crime.

True stories –
A class action lawsuit against county sheriff’s office is pending, to benefit citizens who were illegally charged with DUI due to tampering with the breathalyzer test.

Cops dressing as utility workers to trespass on people’s property searching for anything they can use against them.

Cops causing traffic accidents due to speeding and negligence, and arresting their victims for reckless driving. If they live.

Cops entering a citizens back yard without a warrant and shooting the family dog.

Cops breaking into the wrong house and opening fire on a very confused, innocent family.

Internal affairs is staffed by former officers.

@Seek_Kolinahr – Shouldn’t an investigative reporter looking for a story learn about this? In case complaints to your elected representatives lead to nothing.

@ragingloli – As I said earlier, revealing criminal activity is not a crime. Not in the US, not in Germany.

The Kardashian family is much more interesting. And of course, there’s the prevailing notion that if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn’t fear the police.

All of these things came from my local newspaper. I think I’m the only one that actually read it. Most people just get the coupons.

Maybe this sounds corny, but during the 51 years of my life I’ve never had to fear the police. Not once. No system is perfect and maybe I was lucky. Or many the German police has to be more careful given the terrible history of our country. This isn’t to say that there wasn’t misconduct over here. During the student protests in the late 60s it was pretty bad. Same for the demonstrations against nuclear missiles and nuclear power plants. More recently a policeman in Frankfurt was fined, because he threatened a child murderer called Magnus Gäfgen with torture. Of course a lot of people said he was right. But this means we sacrifice law and order and allow ourselves to follow our instincts. To me the rule of law is the great good.

@filmfann: the occasional act of terrorism is a fact of modern life, and has been since the late 19th century. Spain and the UK have both suffered from high-profile acts of terrorism since 9/11.

@bolwerk The US has been mostly isolated from this kind of terrorism until 2001, mostly. Our response was quick and harsh, and will eventually become tempered. Until then, please excuse our heavy handedness.

@filmfann: not really. Oklahoma City? WTC 1993? LAX in the early 1980s?

Oklahoma City was home grown. WTC 1993 failed. I don’t know of a terrorist attack on LAX in the early 80’s, so it must not of left a big impression.

Homegrown or not, terrorism has been a pretty constant fact of life for over a century. Even for Americans.

Correction: LAX was 1974.

Terrorism can’t be used as an argument to turn every citizen on earth into a potential suspect with no privacy rights whatsoever. Here’s an idea: there are thousands of excellent hackers upset about the NSA. They should dig into the private lives of all top NSA managers and make everything public. How often they sleep with their wives and their mistresses. Whether they have trouble getting an erection or trouble reaching an orgasm, which pornographic movies they like and so forth. Otherwise they don’t seem to understand the problem.

Here’s a small sign of hope:

People carried signs reading: “Stop Mass Spying,” “Thank you, Edward Snowden” and “Unplug Big Brother” as they gathered at the foot of the Capitol to demonstrate against the online surveillance by the National Security Agency.

Estimates varied on the size of the march, with organizers saying more than 2,000 attended. U.S. Capitol Police said they do not typically provide estimates on the size of demonstrations.

The march attracted protesters from both ends of the political spectrum as liberal privacy advocates walked alongside members of the conservative Tea Party movement in opposition to what they say is unlawful government spying on Americans.

“I consider myself a conservative and no conservative wants their government collecting information on them and storing it and using it,” said Michael Greene, one of the protesters.

“Over the past several months, we have learned so much about the abuses (of privacy) that are going on and the complete lack of oversight and the mass surveillance into every detail of our lives. And we need to tell Congress that they have to act,” said another protester, Jennifer Wynne.

The event was organized by a coalition known as “Stop Watching Us” that consists of some 100 public advocacy groups and companies, including the American Civil Liberties Union, privacy group Electronic Frontier Foundation, Occupy Wall Street NYC and the Libertarian Party.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/26/us-usa-security-protest-idUSBRE99P0B420131026

What’s missing is the concern about the NSA spying on law-abiding non-Americans.

The reason there is little concern is that most believe that only guilty people have stuff to hide. So long as you’re not a terrorist or pedophile, let the NSA look!

With so many having that sort of attitude, what can really be done? How can we change that mindset amongst the populace?

A man who has trouble getting an erection isn’t necessarily guilty of something. He discusses things with his doctor. He tells him how much he loves sex. Especially with young women. The NSA checks his medical file. People find this okay? The man also runs summer youth camps and is known for being great with kids. He also keeps seeing a psychotherapist. More records about him. He’s not concerned about all his files being checked? Wow. He’s not surprised that at some point perhaps he can’t find any new job?

Perhaps we need a high quality Hollywood movie about the problems with the attitude of innocent people. Maybe this can wake people up.

@mattbrowne And now you know why I come across as jaded, cynical, and have a fairly low opinion of most of humanity.

@jerv Everybody needs to listen to the Nixon tapes where he is reading off his long enemies list and instructing his chief of staff to have every agency head including the IRS go after these people. Most were guilty of crimes like being in the opposing party or being a reporter who wrote an unflattering article about Nixon.

@ETpro And since that happened long ago, why are people surprised that we are pulling the same stuff in 2013 that we did in 1973? That’s the part I don’t get. This is news…. how?

In America, most people don’t seem to realize what’s at stake here. People in Germany and all the other affected countries not only feel very angry, but also very humiliated. On the German news, everybody learns that the reaction in America mostly is, we don’t care or only guilty people have something to hide. Can you imagine what this does to people?

On the roof of the American embassy in Berlin, Germany, which is only half a mile away from the Bundeskanzleramt (the German White House) and the parliament, there is a secret technical installation run by the NSA capable of intercepting all cell phone calls within a radius of one mile. There were photos shown on the news with comments from security experts.

Is this about finding terror cells like the one in Hamburg who flew an airplane into a skyscraper? No one has a problem with that. For this spying is good. But listening to Angela Merkel? From the embassy? How can Germans ever trust an American embassy again? The Americans working in this embassy who know about the installation on top of the building are no longer welcome in Germany. They will soon hate their jobs. Their diplomatic status will protect them from prosecution, but they can be sent back to America. I wonder what will happen.

So is this something like the Watergate scandal with the break-in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters? The answer is: No. It didn’t happen in America. Who really cares? Who really needs allies? Certainly not a superpower commanding the most superior military power on the planet. Sorry for getting cynical here.

Most people have already lost an interest in this Fluther thread.

There are more important political news: OBAMACARE BUYER BEWARE – States balk at posting plan ratings, NOT A PRIORITY – GOP asks why reward not offered for Libya suspects and so forth.

I want our transatlantic friendship to be repaired. But I don’t know how. Perhaps the best we can do is that ordinary Americans and Germans stay in touch and treasure their friendship and appreciation. Politics can’t destroy relations between people. Global forums like Fluther are more important than ever.

@mattbrowne Just remember two things;

1) The government doesn’t really represent the people.

2) There are hundreds of millions of Americans, and a fair number of us do care.

I think your little display of cynicism is very American of you though.

@jerv – I know, and I find this is very comforting. About the cynicism, well, I guess more than four years of Fluther have left their mark ;-)

Perhaps, we should create a new thread about damage control on the political level.

http://www.fluther.com/165395/the-humiliation-of-us-allies-how-can-politicians-repair-the/

Another thing to bear in mind is that we are not exactly united, at least no more than the entirety of the EU is. I’m sure that France, Germany, and the UK squabble about as much as California, Texas, and Massachusetts. We are less a country than a collection of countries that all share a common currency and allegedly language. You can imagine the effects that has on politics at the federal level.

Imagine overhearing Merkel indulging in phone sex with Putin, pity the poor fucker who was on shift at that horrific moment :(

@ucme why do you think Edward Snowdon finally had to call it quits?

The EU doesn’t share a common military or national security apparatus. And since it doesn’t share a fiscal policy in a very meaningful sense, it’s doubtful it currently has the ability to create one.

All the shitheads major players in the U.S. government pretty much agree the NSA’s behavior was okay, and there isn’t any meaningful state level opposition to it either. Texas talks about seceding over healthcare, not creeping fascism.

@jerv – Yes, there’s plenty of squabbling in Europe too. But we are united when it comes to our most fundamental values.

@ucme – Poor guy on the shift listening to phone sex with all the pleasure moaning? He’s getting an otherwise expensive service for free. Might work better than Viagra.

@mattbrowne Yeah, but Merkel? #Barf #Animalfarm #Yougottabefuckinkiddingme

@mattbrowne I don’t really think that you can claim that Europeans are united in their fundamental values when you have groups like Le Pen’s in France and the Neo-Nazis in Germany.

@janbb: constitutionally, the EU is largely united on many fundamental human rights matters.

The mere presence of fascist mass movements is to be expected. People like Le Pen are certainly less a force in European politics than in the United States, with the Republikan Party achieving a semi-permanent grip on power. Hell, open neo-fascism is probably more common in the USA than in Germany too.

@ucme – Phone sex doesn’t involve video feeds. Do you think all the ladies at the other end of the line are Miss World?

@mattbrowne Of course not, they’re probably pensioners multitasking, talking dirty & doing a spot of knitting to ease the boredom.
No visual necessary to ID Merkel, that fucking gruff voice is a dead giveaway.

@ucme So is that why the NSA was tapping her phone? Bunch of perverts.

You know, it just occurred to me that this is a trick question.

As far as I can discern, in GOP America, if you are a liberal, you are a socialist and if you are a socialist, you cannot be an American so…. how can this question actually be answered?