The humiliation of US allies - How can politicians repair the damage?

The entire agency needs to be dissolved, its employees put in prison, as well as anyone in the government that was part of that command structure.
All data storage devices of that agency must be physically destroyed.
Reparations in the trillions must be paid in Gold to each affected country, to be distributed not to the governments, but directly to their citizens.

What about finding terrorists?

I’m feeling really bad for America at the moment. The president has so much on his plate. Thank you for the very informative post. I too, am wondering what will happen.

Is it bad that I’m kind of hoping for a war on our soil so I can flee the country as a refugee?

I wonder how long American media can ignore the issue. It’s really becoming like a Global Watergate. And it’s getting bigger every day. After Brasil, Mexico, Germany and France, now also Spain. It’s definitely not just about meta data such as who called who and when. It’s about the content of the phone calls too. And bugging the European Union offices in Brussels is not about getting meta data either. It’s about listening. Listening what allies, partners, friends are discussing, instead of what terrorists are discussing. Why can’t even conservative politicians in the US see that the NSA has gone too far? Doesn’t losing partners pose a future security threat to the United States? Does the NSA really act in the best interest of all Americans? When will influential people start questioning this? Instead of repeating stupid messages like only guilty people have something to hide.

Influential politicians tend to either get railroaded by parliamentary procedure, or be the ones playing tricks with said procedures in order to prevent any meaningful action from happening.

Given that our politics are arranged along geographical lines (the West coast and Northeast being more liberal, the South and sparsely populated Midwest and Southwest being more conservative) I almost think that just splitting the US in two would alleviate many problems. And I have a strong hunch I know which half would continue spying and which half would try to mend foreign relations.

@mattbrowne – I listed to a few moments of a discussion on NPR a few days ago. Both of the guests were talking about the Merkel thing this way (I’m paraphrasing)...

Listen, every intelligence agency spies on their allies. This is understood. Germany understands this. But Merkel is really facing some problems at home. Germans – and Europeans in general – are really sensitive about privacy right now. So Merkel is having to do some public posturing to appease the German public.

Just thought you’d be interested in how this is being sold to the U.S.

@tom_g – The meaning of “every intelligence agency spies on their allies” is this: “every intelligence agency spies inside the countries of their allies to get information that threatens security”. This is understood. And this makes sense.

The ends justify the means otherwise we will not have any spy films.
American are seen to believe that they are watchers of the world,The truth, Just us and the American way has been fed to the children of the US from early 50 vie superman, wonder women, and other U2 pilots. It has been going on for so long that Americans don’t know what is right they think that what they are doing is right.The unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbour which was known by the Allies but untold to bring them into ww2 has left them paranoid and must know what is happening.
. Don’t Begrudge them, be sorry for them, They do not know what they do!

Angela Merkel must feel profoundly let down by the Americans. She grew up in East Germany where the Stasi had a mania for gathering information on everyone and now the United States, the leader of the free world, which she used to look up to has done the same.

The solution lies in getting a clear understanding of what is right and acceptable and what is wrong and writing it into the legal system which has been left way behind the advances in eavesdropping technology.

Let’s be clear here. The US was spying, no question. And that’s unethical in general and stupid to do against our allies. That’s a given.

However, the US did not “humiliate” our allies. The allies chose to be humiliated – humiliation is an internally created emotion/stance. The Germans and the French could have reacted in a dozen other ways—from embracing, to quiet diplomacy, to assistance, and various other approaches they could have taken.

The europeans chose to take the “we’re shocked, shocked” stance for their own political and geopolitical reasons. It makes Merkel look stronger to be angry at the US. But that reaction was a choice that Merkel made.

Why did humanity invent something called a search warrant? Or the concept of privacy of the home? On second thought, was this really such a good idea? Let’s take a look at an improved world. A more secure world.

In every bedroom in America, there is now an extra chair to be used by an employee from a security organization. Here’s the story of one of the millions of couples going to their bedroom and deciding to have sex. They get started and they soon both enjoy the foreplay. Between the pleasure moans doubts arise.
“Why do you sit in this chair?” the man in the bed asks. “Is this really necessary?”
“Oh, don’t worry about me,” says the person on the chair. “It’s just a security precaution.”
“Let’s continue,” the woman in the bed pleads.
The couple gets more aroused. This feels so good. But some doubts seem to linger.
The man, who is now on top of the woman, turns his head. “Are you absolutely sure that this is necessary?”
“Don’t worry. Keep going. Only the guilty have something to hide.”
The uneasiness in the bedroom just won’t dissipate.
The person on the chair thinks that he owes the couple an explanation.
“You know,” he says slowly and deliberately, “there are cases of women changing their mind about having sex. This can happen for different reasons. Most men are very understanding, though a bit disappointed. Yet sometimes, the man wants to keep going. He wants sex against the will of his partner. This is rape. There’s a lot of marital rape, believe me. That’s why we’re here. To make the bedroom a safer place. Now, go enjoy yourselves.”

@mattbrowne – Don’t take this the wrong way, because we are likely pretty much in agreement on the necessity of spy organizations. But, prior to the recent revelations, didn’t we all just assume this was going on? I’m not saying that we should just accept it all. I’m a little curious about the level of shock and horror that is being professed by some – even to the US domestic spying.

I’m of the mindset that I would rather have a significantly-less safe society (terrorism) that has a greater amount of privacy. But I always assumed that organizations that are designed to spy will spy.

@tom_g – We all assumed that emails are automatically scanned for keywords or combination of keywords. But nobody expected a secret installation on top of the American embassy to be used to listen to Angela Merkel’s phone calls. No one expected constant mass spying with everyone being a suspect. We always assumed the CIA and NSA use their resources to chase Al Qaeda terrorists and other evil people. The BND (German CIA) certainly has spies running around in the United States. It is know that German and American neo-Nazis are well connected for example. German neo-Nazis appreciate the absence of restrictions in America regarding Nazi symbols and propaganda. German neo-Nazis do commit murders in Germany. If the BND finds one in the US everyone is happy (except the Nazis of course). The same goes for militant Islamists active in Germany. Whoever finds them does a great job. This job doesn’t require to listen to Angela Merkel or bugging the offices of the EU in Brussels.

@elbanditoroso – I agree with your point. Allow me to rephrase my question:

US allies feel humiliated – How can politicians repair the damage?

Do you have any suggestions now?

@flutherother – Some people over here call the NSA the National Stasi Agency, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi

There is an ongoing court case in the UK just now involving journalists who hacked into voice mails. It caused a fair bit of shock over here. We feel we are entitled to some respect in our daily lives and that includes a right to privacy. Don’t Americans feel the same?

”@tom_g: This job doesn’t require to listen to Angela Merkel or bugging the offices of the EU in Brussels.”

We agree. But this is the assumed function of spy agencies. For example, if German spy agencies aren’t tapping Obama’s calls – or trying desperately to – I’d be shocked. I just thought we assumed these things were happening, so when we get confirmation, the reflexive shrug of the shoulders isn’t necessarily acceptance as much as “right, well we knew that”.

@tom_g Surely we expect spy agencies working for western democracies to be obeying the law?

@flutherother: ”@tom_g Surely we expect spy agencies working for western democracies to be obeying the law?”

Are you being serious?

@tom_g – I’m not shocked of German spy agencies not tapping Obama’s calls, or not trying desperately to. It’s a matter of decent behavior and respect. This is actually what John C. Kornblum said on German television two days ago. He served as the Ambassador to Germany from 1997 to 2001. He called the NSA to be incredibly stupid. Lack of respect leads to feelings of humiliation.

I want the BND in the US chasing the really bad guys. I want the CIA and NSA in Germany chasing the really bad guys. They should not try anything else. And yes, I also expect spy agencies working for western democracies to be obeying the law. Some spying is legal, other isn’t.

Western spy agencies working in totalitarian countries don’t have to obey the laws there, because these laws are not mandated by the people of these countries. We should spy as much as possible! China, go for it! Iran, go for it! Yemen, go for it!

@mattbrowne – A couple of weeks ago, the US spy agencies were “not tapping” Merkel’s phone either. The revelation of expected behavior isn’t shocking. I’m sure German spy agencies are doing the same.

It seems clear to me that this is simple. When a corporation does something to maximize profit, we shouldn’t be surprised. That’s what they corporations do. When spy organizations spy, we shouldn’t be surprised either.

You are better than me with your hope that people act in the ways you prefer (“chasing the really bad guys”). In the U.S., we can’t hope for a small town police department not to use the power it is given. When you design an organization whose only purpose is to spy, it will spy. When you add to it that the supposed nature of its activities need to be protected from public oversight, you have pure power. Why would we expect unchecked organizations that are designed to do things that are quite illegal to act legally and ethically if we hand them the power and the ability to be free to keep their activities private?

I can hardly stand the fact that local police have as much power as they do. I’m not for any of these spy organizations at all. Terrorism is a horseshit excuse. But we gave these organizations the thumbs up. Then we get all upset when they do things that are natural consequences of the power we gave them.

Let’s say Merkel found out about the spying, but her public position was “Everybody knew America was spying us. We happened to catch them.” I think that position would lose her a lot of popularity.
There’s an American who is continuing to serve time in the US for spying against the US for Israel. I’ve forgotten his name, someone pitch in. My thinking is this is not to make America safer by spy catching. It is to make America safer by improving the quality of Israeli spies! If they are worried about getting caught, they will be more cautious, more sharp, and generally better spies, which is what America, Israel’s ally, needs much more than catchign a bad spy.

@mattbrowne the really bad guys can’t bribe or blackmail members of German government? If the US experienced another 9/11, and the reason we were caught with our pants down was because we didn’t want to spy on our allies, heads will roll. In the media. In the command structures. As it stands now, our government only faces a slap on the wrist.

Has the NSA offered any evidence that their wiretapping has thwarted any terrorist plot… ever?

I thought in the old days, uncovered spies were to be hanged.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies as if the NSA would divulge the success or failure of their methods. I bet you behind the scenes they are mopping up credit for the absences of a signifigant terror attakc like 9/11 since, but who knows what caused that.

@tom_g – When a corporation does something to maximize profit short-term at the expense of long-term success, day traders and other short-term gamblers might applaud, but people investing for their pension are screwed. That’s what the NSA and the ultra-conservative Republicans are doing right now. Isolating the US from the rest of the world. But more and more US politicians are getting concerned. Here’s an interesting New York Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/world/europe/obama-may-ban-spying-on-heads-of-allied-states.html

In a statement on Monday, Ms. Feinstein, chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said, “I do not believe the United States should be collecting phone calls or emails of friendly presidents and prime ministers.” Ms. Feinstein, who has been a stalwart defender of the administration’s surveillance policies, said her committee would begin a “major review of all intelligence collection programs.”

@drhat77 – The really bad guys can’t bribe or blackmail members of German government?

Simple answer: That’s extremely difficult. I don’t know of a single case since 1945. There are isolated cases for members of parliaments or party members. Car makers want car friendly laws and things like that. Sometimes party donations are somewhat doubtful. Helmut Kohl once broke the law for not naming a donor. But all of them are not the really bad guys killing people.

Do we want the man on the chair to rule out any chance of that completely? I don’t.

Maybe this all boils down to the more general question:

http://www.fluther.com/165405/how-secure-do-you-want-the-world-to-be/

I am thinking maybe a total and mass Seppuku. by all three branches.

Then we start over, heck we could even hold an emergency election prior to the event and then the newbies just step right in.

Here are a few interesting clips I’ve read about this-

Obama in 2007—“We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.”

“The magnitude of the eavesdropping is what shocked us,” said Bernard Kouchner, a former French foreign minister, in a radio interview. “Let’s be honest, we eavesdrop too. Everyone is listening to everyone else. But we don’t have the same means as the United States, which makes us jealous.”

Mike Rogers, the chairman of the intelligence committee in the House of Representatives, said that America’s allies should be grateful for surveillance operations which targeted terrorist threats. “I would argue by the way, if the French citizens knew exactly what that was about, they would be applauding and popping champagne corks,” he told CNN’s State of the Union.

“It’s a good thing. it keeps the French safe. It keeps the US safe. It keeps our European allies safe.”

John Schindler, a former NSA official, noted that planning for the terrorist attacks on Sept 11, 2001 had taken place in Hamburg.

“If 9/11 had happened to Germany and been planned in NY not Hamburg, I’d expect [German] intel to monitor USA top 2 bottom,” he wrote on Twitter.

A German intelligence official, quoted by Die Welt, said: “The Americans did not want to rely exclusively on us after September 11th. That is understandable.”

Another told the newspaper: “Without information from the Americans, there would have been successful terrorist attacks in Germany in the past years.”

@KNOWITALL – It’s simply not true that everyone is listening to everyone else. What is meant by that is that every country has active spies in every other country of the world. There are bad guys everywhere. German spies in the US to keep Germans safe. They might track a German neo-Nazi meeting with American neo-Nazis. Yes, the Americans did not want to rely exclusively on Germans after September 11th. That is understandable. And I agree with it. American spies are welcome to chase bad guys in Germany.

@mattbrowne I’m more skeptical than you about that I guess, I do believe everyone is listening and watching everyone else and has been for decades now.

How do you know, for a fact, that Merkel is not a ‘bad guy’?

@KNOWITALL And how can you always be sure the faceless people listening in are not ‘bad guys’. Personally I know Angela Merkel is decent. Her outrage tells me that.

@KNOWITALL – Do you have proof that everyone is listening to and watching everyone else? Human relationships are based on trust. One can never be 100% sure. But reasonably sure. Merkel is not a bad guy (just for the record, I voted for the other guy). She certainly has her flaws like every human being. Bad guys who should be spied on endanger the lives of people. There are millions of them around the world, from Al Qaeda to crazy guys running Iran and North Korea. We should focus our resources there.
Just curious, are you aware that Merkel was raised by a theologian father in East Germany? The rulers of East Germany didn’t like churches so many people gave up their beliefs to avoid disadvantages. Merkel kept her faith.

@flutherother @mattbrowne http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/10/an-exclusive-club-the-five-countries-that-dont-spy-on-each-other.html

In so many words, NSA director Keith Alexander admitted Wednesday that the Obama administration had issued misleading information about terror plots and their foiling to bolster support for the government’s vast surveillance apparatus.

During Wednesday’s hearing, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy pushed Alexander to admit that plot numbers had been fudged in a revealing interchange:

“There is no evidence that [bulk] phone records collection helped to thwart dozens or even several terrorist plots,” said Leahy. The Vermont Democrat then asked the NSA chief to admit that only 13 out of a previously cited 54 cases of foiled plots were genuinely the fruits of the government’s vast dragnet surveillance systems:

“These weren’t all plots, and they weren’t all foiled,” Leahy said, asking Alexander, “Would you agree with that, yes or no?”

“Yes,” replied Alexander…

Everyone spy’s on everyone else and this has been going on for ages. Mr Snownden is a traitor to the US and its citizens.

and Stauffenberg was a traitor to Germany and its citizens for plotting to assassinate Hitler
Being a traitor to an evil tyrannic imperialist satan state is not a bad thing.

No, @1TubeGuru, you could not be more mistaken.
Snowden is an American with a fully functioning moral compass. The traitors are all in Washington D.C. and all those who condemn him for bringing into light that which they would prefer not to acknowledge.

If you don’t do what you know what is right You’ll end up believing what you are doing is right (one of the steps into disorder) It can happen to individuals and to societies and communities.

Trust that thing we want others to have in us.
People will live up to or down to our expectations of them. So to will our community.
If you want me to be good at my job just tell me I already am

“Osama bin Laden’s compound in Abbottabad didn’t even have a telephone line running into it. In other words he not only didn’t use the net, computers or phones in any way at all, ever, he was suspicious of the actual physical apparatus itself.

This means that the bad guys know very well that they have to be careful. (It should also be noted that the absence of any electronic footprint at the Abbottabad compound was – as depicted in the movie Zero Dark Thirty – a sign to the spies that something fishy was afoot. Nobody innocent has no electronic footprint.)

Some of the jihadi materials I read in the GCHQ documents make it clear that the terrorists are very well aware of these issues. There is a stinging jeer in one jihadi text, apropos a Swedish documentary that made clear certain bugging capabilities in Ericsson’s mobile phones: It is customary in the Scandinavian countries to publish such helpful materials.

Bear in mind also that these documents were widely circulated: out of the 4.9 million Americans with access to classified information, 480,000 private contractors in the US had the “top-secret” security clearance issued to Snowden.

If hundreds of thousands of people had access to these secrets, how secure were they? The NSA and GCHQ had no idea that Snowden had this material, and apparently still don’t know exactly what is in it – which is one reason they’ve been panicking and freaking out.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Which begs the question: Have we seen what is in it that really scares them yet or is there something much worse and if so, what is it?

@KNOWITALL – The Five Eyes have a contract not to spy on each other. From this you can’t conclude that all other countries spy on everybody.

It seems that John Kerry admitted that the US has gone too far.

@1TubeGuru – You can’t present any evidence to backup your claim that everyone spies on everyone else and that this has been going on for ages. Perhaps you could start your investigation by looking up the meaning of the word “everyone”. Or do you mean this:

Every country has active spies in every other country of the world.