What do you think of the idea that homework should not count towards the final class grade?

Make it 5% as they do in many college classes ( chem, bio, physics ) and the students will do it as it is meant to be done. Practice for the tests.

I agree with this practice.

It shouldn’t matter how many times you did OK with the book open and all your notes. You need to know how to apply the knowledge.

If the test is of sufficient quality to test application of knowledge instead of rote memorization (“Teaching the Test”) I’m all for it.

I think it should count toward the grade. Doing it requires discipline and helps develop study habits. If they know homework “doesn’t count” students will be less motivated to do it—and to do it well.

I was acing all my Algebra II tests but failing the class because I didn’t do the homework. I dropped the class and took no more mathematics until Statistics in college. I hate homework.

I’m actually for abolishing homework entirely.

The teacher’s job is to present the material. The student’s job is to learn it. I don’t care if the kid records the lecture and listens to it 25 times until they know the material, or if they copy the textbook line by line, or if they read ten other books on the same subject, or if they build a diorama or make a PowerPoint presentation organizing what they’ve learned.

There are a hundred different learning styles. Homework generally allows for proving certain types of learning styles anyway, which punishes the kinesthetic learners, for example.

If your plumber can fix the leak, why does it matter whether he can write down the steps on how to do it?

It was exactly this reason my grandfather could never become a licensed plumber.

Required homework is everything that wrong with formal education. It underserves the bright (my daughter) by forcing them to do busy work. It also beats into them that learning is not necessarily about learning – it is about following orders. And it underserved those who really do need to work hard to learn (my son) by teaching them that parents are not their advocates for helping them learn. Parents need to monitor the completion of work and police them.
it is also complete horseshit. school is already all f*cking day. Can’t we do some kid stuff and creative play?

edit: also what @seek said.

If this is high school, almost no students would turn it in if it doesn’t count towards the grade. Hell, if it’s undergrad, almost no students would turn it in. It might work in elementary school, where the kids are still unjaded. :P

I don’t know… the liberal in me wants to say “Yeah, abolish homework!” but the fact is, there are some kinds of things that need to be done in that style. For things like math and physics, it takes a lot of practice to learn how to solve certain kinds of problems, and to become good at solving them. And doing that practice in class is a waste of valuable interaction time. And then, things like term papers are valuable research experience, and can’t be done in a meaningful way within class time, either.

I’m no fan of the “wear the kids out with busywork” paradigm that seems to exist now, but I still think homework is a good idea for some kinds of assignments. And I think those assignments need to be graded if they’re going to be taken seriously.

What level are we talking about?

In high school, I think that homework is useful in some subjects, like math. Performing certain calculations and what not require practice. Assigning homework problems helped me grasp the concept better and remember what I was doing. Of course, I also love math class. But if I didn’t do my homework, I’d forget how it was done and fall behind. That’s why I think math homework is important. A lot of people learn to hate math, and since it is required curriculum from elementary to high school, they have zero motivation to succeed or even give time & effort to it. So as a teacher, if you aren’t giving homework, I don’t think you’re motivating them to succeed and therefore you’re not doing was best for your students.

In college, I don’t see it as being necessary at all. The student should do it solely for the purpose to wanting to succeed. My professor counts it as 5% of the total grade in the class. If I were a professor, I don’t even think I would count it because if I was the student and didn’t get what was taught to me the day before, I wouldn’t want to be marked down for not understanding it. Sure there’s office hours, but you need more time than just one day.

My kid is in 2nd grade and he has 2–5 pages of homework every single night and its not just during the weekdays, he has 2–5 pages to do on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights. Its fucking rediculous.

@cheebdragon Yeah, I totally agree with you. There should be better coordination between teachers and some kind of reasonable limit on the amount given. I would have hated that much homework as a kid, and I actually liked school.

@dxs What does homework mean at the university level? I’ve had loads of classes that required assignments which were worth up to 30% or more of the final grade. I can’t think of one that gave only 5% to assignments. And yet – most of my classes also demanded a fair amount of home study, which was not assigned, but necessary in order to pass exams, etc. Are you considering that to be homework?

Yes. Though actually, I would like homework to be abolished, for the reasons @tom_g and @Seek_Kolinahr stated. With one exception: I think it’s fine for a teacher to say, “as homework, please have a look at all these new spelling words/Spanish words you’ve never heard.”

It would be up to the child to determine when he feels confident enough for any tests although I would like these abolished, too, there’d be no grading.

They should only count insofar as not doing the homework results in a 6, or an ‘F’ for the you yanks.

A school district in my area has already decided to implement this rule beginning next year. Homework is not a grade and tests can be taken multiple times, until the child is happy with the grade. This is only high school, I believe.

I think it’s an incredibly stupid idea. Telling kids “it’s not a grade” only gives them a reason not to do it. If they can do poorly on the test and retake it later, it’s simply an excuse not to study. When they get to the end of the course and have multiple make-up exams to take and they haven’t practiced a single skill by doing homework, they’ll have to learn an entire year’s worth of material on their own in order to pass the course.

Is this an attempt to force these children into making the right academic decisions for themselves? If so, how many times will the above scenario be played out before they take that responsibility? I think drop-out rates will skyrocket in the meantime.

No one is saying the teachers will not make additional study materials or skills practices available.

We’re saying it shouldn’t count for a grade. The application of the knowledge will count for the grade.

This way, no one can skate by with a high-C average because they bullied the nerd into letting him copy his work.

This way, kids who are already comfortable with the material can focus on stuff for other classes they actually need to study, instead of wasting time on pointless worksheets.

I think it should count, maybe not be a large percentage but it should count.
Perhaps in math classes it would make more sense not to count the homework because it is practice problems, but what about in English, where students have homework assignments like essays and presentations as homework? Should these not count because they are not direct tests of what they’ve learned?

I think an essay is applying knowledge, and should be counted.

The worksheets where they circle the mistakes in a sentence should not. Nor should the teacher “grade” the first and second drafts, or the organizational notes. I had a teacher once who forced me to write a bubble chart after my essay was completed, or I would have lost 10% of the grade. That is bullshit.

Seriously? I’m so confused as to why some of you think about abolishing homework completely. Do you honestly think that a middle schooler or even a high schooler can seriously treat a class like a college student would? Do you honestly think a child is able to judge whether or not (s)he is confident enough to take a test when (s)he has so many other things (s)he could be doing than studying? Do you honestly think a student is going to write a rough draft if the teacher isn’t going to grade it or even look at it? What’s the point of teaching then? Why don’t they just teach it to themselves if they’re so capable? I don’t know about you, but I would never get my homework done if it wasn’t going to be routinely checked or assessed. Then the student is going to not only lose track of what the essay is suppose to teach him/her, but is also going to be stuck with a massive composition to write on the night before. And the reason for this procrastination and supposed lack of care is because they’re doing kid things and creative play. And their parents? They’re working.

@dxs: “I’m so confused as to why some of you think about abolishing homework completely.”

And then this…

@dxs: “I don’t know about you, but I would never get my homework done if it wasn’t going to be routinely checked or assessed.”

Don’t be silly. If homework had been abolished, there would be no homework you would not be doing.

Maybe you can rephrase your objection to the abolishing of homework leading to less homework being completed.

@tom_g…abolishing homework as a grade then. In any case, practicing schoolwork on my own time would probably not happen if it isn’t something I am interested in.
I wasn’t being silly, I just mixed two points into one because they’re more or less the same.

Is anyone reading my posts? 0.o

The teacher makes practice work available.

Currently:
Student does work – gets credit.
Student copies other student’s work – gets credit.
Students take test – student who did work passes test, student who doesn’t fails test.
Both student and cheater pass course. (not at same GPA, but both pass)

No homework:
Student does work – Great.
Other student doesn’t/copies/whatever – Fine.
Students take test: Student who practiced passes, cheater fails.
Added bonus: Student who already knew the material didn’t get docked 55% of their grade because stupid busy work is stupid.

If you want me to cry because kids who take school for granted fail in greater numbers, I’m not going to. There are too many illiterate morons graduating high school with high marks, taking the state scholarships from kids who got bored in class and ended up with a low GPA because their teachers didn’t have time to challenge them.

In my scenario, @dxs, there wouldn’t be any tests one could fail.

“doing kid things and creative play” is exactly how I would like children to spend their days. We would have happier children, maybe even less crime. They’ll study when they’re done playing. Just let them be kids for more than five years.

@Seek_Kolinahr The problem is this:

Currently:
Student does work – gets experience/knowledge to helps him pass test – gets credit
Student copies other student’s work – gets no experience/knowledge to help him pass test – gets credit

Students take test – Student who did work passes test, student who doesn’t fails test
Both student and cheater pass course, with different GPAs.

No homework:
Student doesn’t do work
Cheater doesn’t cheat – hey, there’s an upside

Students take test – Student who is good at cramming at the last minute passes
Student who would have benefited from a slow build-up of work towards the exam, but isn’t good at last-minute memorization, fails
Cheater needs to find a way to cheat during exam and either gets away with it and passes or gets caught and expelled

Just to recap: I am not saying “Let’s not change the current system.” I’m saying homework assignments should be co-ordinated, reasonable, and graded.

The work is there for the kid that needs the build up. He can do the work, discuss it with the teacher, make necessary corrections, etc. It just gives the kid a bit of personal responsibility (Shock! Horror!) for learning the material himself, since the game is to pass the evaluation. If kid wants to be lazy and not apply himself, tough titty.

How many kids really think they need the extra help, and will do extra work just for the sake of learning? If homework wasn’t required when I was in high school, I never would’ve done it because I thought it was a waste of my time. I’m sure I would’ve still graduated high school, but it wouldn’t have been with the 4.1 GPA I actually earned. Homework provides students with the practice that will probably help (and certainly wouldn’t hurt) whether they think they need it or not. So cheaters get by on homework by copying, but they aren’t the only ones that will blow off the homework when they know it won’t count as a grade.

I think there should be an incentive to do homework, but it shouldn’t be a huge enough portion of the grade to make or break the student’s performance in the class. And homework shouldn’t be busy work – it should be practice problems similar to what the kids will see on the test.

Testing yourself before the test is a very effective memory strategy, and students that could do well may not just because they don’t yet have the ability to take the initiative as college students might.

Hmmm. When I was in college, taking Algebra II, I aced every single homework assignment. However, I, and many of the other students in the class, failed almost every test. The teacher was an arrogant prick who would design the tests at the next level up, which we hadn’t studied or learned. I guess HIS logic was that OUR logic should lead to the right answers.
When I talked with the Dean I was told that there was a known issue with him, not that it helped me at all.
I got a C in that class. It’s the reason I didn’t graduate with a 4.0.
If the homework hadn’t counted I would have flunked.
So, I’m on the fence with this question. I understand the logic, but it could also be a safety net for kids who just don’t do well on tests because of the pressure or whatever.

I don’t often quote stand-up comedians in a serious discussion, but…

Don’t you love it when people in school are like, ‘I’m a bad test taker.’ You mean you’re stupid. Oh, you struggle with that part where we find out what you know? I can totally relate see, because I’m a brilliant painter minus my god awful brushstrokes. Oh, how the masterpiece is crystal up here but once paint hits canvas I develop Parkinson’s.

Your teacher was a dick, @Dutchess_III

^edited

This thread is off to a healthy start, so I’m going add more details about what is floating around my school district.

There is the idea that, a few days before students are given a quiz/test, that they are given a “practice” quiz: something done in-class, which is similar in difficulty to the “actual” quiz, but which helps to give the student feedback.

I think that this could help solve the problem of the “procrastinator that thinks he’s more ready than he actually is.” If the student doesn’t score well, it should send a strong message that studying is needed.

^ I have always loved a pop quiz. * geeksnort *

@longgone I agree with that philosophy. Do you think that we should somehow incorporate education into kid things and creative play? If we label things as boring, then they’ll believe us. I hated math until I started thinking about my likes on my own. Now I’m going for a degree in math.
@Seek_Kolinahr You’re right in mentioning that there is a problem with cheating. But I don’t think cutting homework is the answer. In my high school classes, homework was only worth 10% max anyway. Maybe better testing procedures will work. I’m sorry for opposing your idea and not presenting an alternative. Nonetheless, I feel that cheaters are gonna get hit sometime in their career. But then again, there are even people wasting space at the college I’m at because they cheat their way through.

@glacial Right now, my mind is stuck on math classes for some reason. I meant to say that my math professor counts homework grades as 5% of the total grade. Every 2 of 3 classes in the week, she’ll ask us do a problem from the section we learned the previous class and turn it in to be graded. Those problems are the 5% homework grade.

^ “Do you think that we should somehow incorporate education into kid things and creative play?”

No, not really. In my opinion, play is education. You make a good point about children not thinking freely, though. A lot of adults don’t know what they want as a result. Have you heard of the British school “Summerhill”? It lets children play for as long as they want. So far, every account I’ve read said they didn’t have to deal with adults who have no clue what they want their lives to be like.

It would be easier to get rid of homework completely if there were less students per teacher. There are 34 kids in my sons class and 1 teacher. Last year he had 32 kids in his class. There is very little one on one teaching that some kids need in order for them to really learn and understand things, so to fill this void they give them more homework.
Half the time I start wondering why we even send him to school if I’m going to be sitting with him for 2–3 hours every night teaching him how to do his homework anyway….School seems like its just a 6 hour daycare center.

^ “Half the time I start wondering why we even send him to school if I’m going to be sitting with him for 2–3 hours every night teaching him how to do his homework.”

So true.

@cheebdragon – I’m pulling my kid out of kindergarten at winter break, for just that reason.

It’s been a whole quarter, and they aren’t past ABCs and counting to ten, yet twice a week I’m sent home a note asking for money. Instead of physical education or recess, the kids have to run laps around the playground to raise money for the school.

Public school.

The teachers are more focused on teaching patriotic songs than the ‘three Rs’.

The school hours aren’t long enough or consistent enough to get even a part time job without giving the school MORE money for after school daycare – which only goes until 6 pm (too early for a full time job downtown. Commute is hellacious). It can be 40 or more a day for in school childcare – and ten dollars a minute after 6:00.

And in top of all that, I’m given homework assignments to do with him. Not that we don’t read together already, but I shouldn’t be expected to report daily reading and studying to his teacher.

So… I’m homeschooling. Fuck that noise.

The teachers are just as frustrated as everyone else. They have to teach what they are told to teach and told how they are supposed to teach it. If the kids are running laps it’s because the word came down from the school board or the principal that they are to do so.

There are parents out there who see school as nothing more than a free daycare. They could really care less whether the kids learn anything or not. Of course, those kids are the ones demanding all the attention in the class, which can disrupt the entire room and slows learning down for ALL the kids. And the parents just blame the teacher for their kids’ behavior issues.

Teachers are really caught in the middle.

As to homework, as someone said, it’s almost impossible for a teacher to give the one on one that they’d LIKE to give. They’re hoping the parents will pitch in for a bit after school in that regard, if needed. For the most part, the kid should be able to do the work themselves. If they can’t they need your help. I never minded it.

But if I’m doing the lion’s share of the “pitching”, why bother sending him to the school at all?

Why do you feel you’re doing the lion’s share? What kind of work does she send home and how much?

@Seek_Kolinahr – For what it’s worth, we attempted to find a way to homeschool/unschool, but it just wouldn’t work for us. I have huge problems with education overall – not just in the material that is taught, but in the complete structure and process.

As for the homework load, I have always made it clear to my daughter’s teachers that she will not be doing all of the required homework, and that I expect there to be no consequences for this. It has worked so far, but she just started middle school so it’s practically impossible at this point. But prior to middle school, you could always try letting the teacher know what amount of homework you will be allowing.

It’s hard to say how it compares to in-school stuff, because there’s literally zero communication.

I just got a letter from the school yesterday saying the kids are putting on a patriotic demonstration during school hours tomorrow. I knew he was learning “I love my country” songs only because he happened to be singing one to himself while playing video games. I have literally no idea what they do in school all day.

What is sent home is laughable, in my opinion. Coloring pages, for the most part. There’s a list of “sight words” that we’re supposed to invent a new way to study every night, and log it on a calendar. Same list of about 40 words, most of which he knew going into school, and all of which he has known since the first week.

They haven’t gotten past counting to ten. He does math with number magnets on the refrigerator for fun.

So any learning my son is doing, it’s not happening at school. As far as I can tell, he’s going to school to sing songs about the flag (you know how I feel about THAT), run laps, and be harrassed by the parents of another kid in his class.

I generally don’t have a problem with extra work. My comments regarding homework scoring are indended to be considered for higher grades – middle school and above. But the work should be challenging at least.

I think I’m especially upset because my son’s report card came back yesterday. No bad marks, no good marks – everything was simply “satisfactory”. No recognition of the fact that he’s bored to fucking tears in this school.

And I just hate hearing him say that he hates school every morning. It’s killing me.

I don’t blame you for wanting to homeschool @Seek_Kolinahr. Or perhaps there is an advanced school you could send him to, like a Montessori?

Seriously though…if you have a day to spare, sit in on the classroom. And remember…the teacher makes it look easy! Maybe you could even ask her if you could take over for, say, 15 minutes, without her in the room. It’ll be an eye-opener, I promise!

The problem with your child is a common one. You have a bunch of children in one room with a wide variety of intelligence and abilities AND behaviors. The teacher is forced to teach to the average, which leaves out the extremes. The slower kids fall behind, the smarter ones get bored.

It is sad to hear that he hates school. Very sad, especially as a kindergartener.

@Seek_Kolinahr – Ouch. This sounds way too familiar. Good luck.

@Seek_Kolinahr: “No recognition of the fact that he’s bored to fucking tears in this school.”

My daughter is the youngest kid in the grade, yet has never received a grade or evaluation that was less than 95%. She had weekly spelling tests from 1st to 3rd grade. She received a 100% on every single one. The teachers would talk a good game about “coming up with more challenging work for her”, but it never happened. Even her homework now is “boring”.

I’m not blaming the teachers. Rather, it’s a system that is designed as a one-size-fits-all solution that really serves nobody well. We cram a bunch of kids into an unnatural learning environment with a single teacher, and hope that enough of them will be able to adjust to that style of learning.

^ E-man is the youngest kid, too. As was I, actually.

@Dutchess_III I’ve taught preschool. Did everything this school does, and diapers and potty training besides. Kindergarteners are cake in comparison to three and four year olds.

What was the student/teacher ratio in the preschools you taught in? The ones I taught in, if I remember correctly, was 5 to 9 students per teacher, depending on the ages. It was a law similar to day care laws.

I had 18 four year olds. 12 three year olds. Separate times.

The two-year old class I taught was 22, with two “teachers”

The ratios were probably illegal.

Probably! I’m surprised you’re still sane!

That’s debatable. ^_~

Lol Seek! Kid’s will do that to you!

One time I taught for about a week in a Headstart program, subbing for a teacher who was gone. It was a joke. A very bad joke. This is supposed to be a pre school government program. The staff treated it as no more than a day care. The first day they gave the kids some beans and glue and said “Glue the beans on the paper!” That was their instruction in it’s entirety. So I took it upon myself to trace the first letter of my group of kids’ first name, and instructed them to glue the beans on the tracing, reiterating that “This is the letter J. It is the first letter in your first name, ‘John.’” Then I’d show them on the alphabet where the letter ‘J’ was located.
I was told to stop. They weren’t ‘old enough’ to understand the concept of letters. WTF???

I did more teaching in my actual daycare that I ran for 3 years than those people did.

We took a bus trip to the zoo. There was one kid who was standing in the aisle as the bus was hurtling down the freeway. I told her to sit down. She sat down for a second, but then was standing in the aisle again. I said, “SIT DOWN!”
A teacher snarled at me, “She CAN’T sit down! Her seat mate has fallen asleep on her seat!”
I snarled right back, “Then she needs to find a seat where she CAN sit down!”
That is just dangerous and illegal as F—-. I should have turned them in.

We were all relieved when my sub term was over. The kids lost out, though.

A couple of months ago there was a video project due…..the students had to create a video presentation for the class showing what “inspires them to dream”......I’m 26 and I haven’t got a fucking clue what inspires me to dream, so how in the hell do they expect a 7 year old to answer that question using a 5 minute video montage???? I’d be surprised if any of the students even knew what an mp4 is, they are just barely learning the keyboard layout.

I hate the PTA….it’s only the 4th month into the school year and they have had 3 fundraisers for the kids to hustle their relatives into buying stupid shit and they have had 2 book fairs with prices so high Barnes & Nobles is the low cost alternative. Where is the money going? It’s not going to their education obviously because I got a notice in the mail last week informing me that his school had the 2nd lowest test scores in their district.

REALLY? Videoediting homework for the parents?

What about kids who don’t have computers?

I think that’s over the top too, for that age group.

I think there are things that should be changed about the education system as well. It makes it seem as though everybody is the same when in reality we all have different talents. I’m currently failing a first-year writing college class because I can’t write. I’m a math major for a reason. I just hope I can pull a passing grade by the end of the semester. This last essay I’m working on is nearly impossible, though.

Application to establish a homeschool has been accepted! (not that it could be denied, but they didn’t blatantly ignore the submission, so I don’t have to worry about shenanigans when he stops showing up.)

Yay!

I hope you have enough money to pay the tutors.

He’s just starting in Elementary school. Why would she need tutors?

That is how scatterbrained I am at times. Completely overlooked that little detail.

LOL! Getta tutor Raggie!

Yeah, I think I have him pretty much covered.

The school system also has “virtual school” so when he’s into maths that I can’t handle (I’m dyscalculic) I can enroll him in part-time virtual school completely free.

What is “dyscalculic?”

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dyscalculia

Cute Raggie.

I think homework should be optional. For those who feel like they don’t need it they won’t have to do it, and for those who do need it they’ll have access to it. Last year and the year before that I fell into this habit of not doing a large portion of my homework because I just didn’t really need to. I passed all of the tests and knew what I was doing but my grades still took a big toll because a lot of little homework assignments went in as zeros. For people who don’t test well but actually know what they are doing they can have the option of homework to help balance out the grade. For those who have no idea what they’re doing they could take the homework for extra practice. But those who know what they are doing and can test well shouldn’t be forced into extra work that’s not going to do anything for them just because other people could use the work. If it was optional those who wanted or needed to do it could get the much needed practice or grade improvement and those who don’t want it or need it could just be excused from the assignment. And sure, some people would just take the easy way out and never do the work, but honestly they’re probably not doing it for the grade anyway.

That’s assuming a very mature, self aware and self disciplined personality @laineybug. A 3rd grader would opt out of homework if they had the choice, even if they really needed the practice.

Yep, this thread has been exhausted. But can I point out the class implications of mandatory homework for a moment?

I live in an upper-middle class town, where every parent is directly involved in their kids’ education. It is very common for parents of first-graders to be grooming the kids for a particular ivy league school (no, I’m not kidding). It’s very common for kids to be get expensive private tutoring for no reason other than “she’s never going to make it into Princeton with those math skills”.

Anyway, nearly everyone here has the resources and time to help their kids with their homework. Nearly everyone. My wife grew up in this town, and she was one of a handful of kids who was receiving public assistance. Her single-mother was not around to help her with homework, and they had no money for all of the extra tutoring, etc. And when she got older, most of her classmates would buckle down and do tons of homework as they prepped for Harvard, Yale, etc. She would go work in hopes that she would have some money to put towards her college education and some money left over to eat some dinner.

The amount of homework completed can simply be a measure of socioeconomics, and has no place being part of a grading system that is the gateway towards future educational opportunities.

Growing up I always thought homework was just prep for when you are an adult and you didn’t have a teacher telling you how it’s done anymore, and you needed to figure it out for yourself.