What form of acupuncture is correct?

What do you mean correct? Most of those have been practiced for thousands of years.

There are regional differences and influences. You find a practioner who gives you the beat results. The practioner themselves usually explore and know a variety of techniques.

I had one who uses mostly tcm but she also did modification and cupping and some medical.

The eastern influence also has a variety of “kung fu” is there a right kind? Or just one you prefer.

My thoughts on the matter.

Aside from placebo effect none of the above could be called ” correct. ”

Not sure, but I do not think the book is entirely closed here ( such as it is for homeopathy ) and work is being done on this as we speak. Though anything I have read lately is not supportive of acupuncture being much of anything.

I’ve never tried it, and don’t think I ever will. I also don’t go to chiropracters. I know it isn’t the same, but they both make me nervous, and I don’t have tons of confidence in either. Although, some people swear by it. I know a couple people who had very very bad experiences with acupuncture. I know a couple who basically had not results from it, and a few who feel it helped them.

The answer is “none of them”.

It depends. I know people who have been helped by it, and I know folks who have not. I am not sure which kinds they were.

I also have taken multiple courses of antibiotics that never helped an infection I had, and in stead I was helped by something a naturopath did in his office and taking some of his supplements. I have had surgeries that only made my problem worse and I’ve managed to avoid other surgeries because I turned to some form of holistic (alternative to you) healing in stead.

And in still other instances doctors saved my life and that of my husband.

I find your question to be puzzling.

Correct for what? It isn’t possible to evaluate a technique if we don’t know what it is supposed to do. Here is the 1997 NIH statement on the effectiveness of acupuncture, and here is Wikipedia’s rundown of more recent meta-analyses of the same. One interesting result is that the specific placement of the needles doesn’t seem to matter. This suggests that the various forms might all be equally correct (insofar as they do have the same effects) and equally incorrect (insofar as the underlying theories about fixed points, meridians, and whatever else supposedly causes the treatment’s effects are inconsistent with the data). This leaves open the question of whether the observed effects of acupuncture are entirely a placebo or if there is an as yet unknown reason for why its methods have the effects they do.

@glacial I’m not trying to trap anybody in this question. See below

What do I mean by correct? If something “works” there has to be a mechanism by which it works. A car engine runs because of gas explosions and car pistons running a drive shaft. H2 blockers work by blocking histamine receptors and decreasing acid production. I’ve not heard a good mechanism by which acupuncture works, but as @Neodarwinian said, my mind is open on it.

I really WANT acupuncture to work. Treating chronic pain is, well, a pain. It’s difficult, nobody is happy, and patients get addicted to narcotics which isn’t good for anybody.

I would LOVE to see a good study showing acupuncture’s effectiveness. I’m begging for it. If I can say to someone with difficult to control pain, hey, don’t see me, see an acupuncturist and they’ll make you better, I can’t tell you how much easier my professional life would be.

The problem is that I’ve not seen any good well designed study tha shows effectiveness for acupuncture. To make matters worse, as I note in this question, there are numerous schools of acupuncture, each telling you different things.

Which one is correct? Is it Chinese acupuncture? Korean acupuncture? Japanese acupuncture? Medical acupuncture (which might work through GATE mechanism)? If I can make someone’s chronic abdominal pain better by sticking a needle in their ear, great! Show me the data, and give me a plausible mechanism.

So if the acupuncture proponents here want to respond, I’m all ears. Tell me which type of acupuncture is the best and why?

@Rarebear I’m not an acupuncture proponent, but it seems to me you might be asking the wrong question. Which type is best? We probably don’t know yet. So let’s get the funding secured to do a rigorous study instead of the inevitably inconclusive studies that the AMA reluctantly allows in its ongoing attempts to make sure that very little serious research on alternatives to pharmaceuticals gets done. Less than one-tenth of one percent of medical research spending in the US goes to studies regarding alternative medicine. Whether one is a proponent or an opponent, it should be clear how patently absurd this is given the increasing interest in and controversy over these treatments. Let’s try settling some of these disputes rather than wasting money on studies that do nothing but prolong the debate.

@Rarebear I feel like your response is sincere. I wish I could answer it helpfully. I agree wholeheartedly with @SavoirFaire.

I would like to add that as part of a liver transplant program they offer reiki at UW. I didn’t try theirs but I was and hve been using reiki here. The practioner doesn’t charge and it gives me relief from pain which is a huge help since they don’t like us to use pain killers.

The only time I do use pain killers is when I have a medical procedure. So I rely on it very heavily.

The practioner is always adding new things to her arsenal. If it works we will do it and often I can do them on the go or at home. Though her formal appts are more intense and focused.

It is similar as she is working with chi and energy. The thing about it is sometimes there are results and sometimes there isn’t. We communicate every time we try something new and it is a constant balance of what I need and what doesn’t work for me.

I think you would be best served helping your patients by finding not only a licensed practionar but one that has a good standing and good rep.

You can add the caveat that it may not work for them and that it is not a commitment. They can try it and drop it if they find it unhelpful. It is nice when traditional docs are at least open esp when they have reached their limits.

And it is better for them to know what to look for rather then blindly searching because they are afraid of scorn or being shut down when they mention it in the office.

Sorry to add more but I am ruminating now.

I just wanted to say my old pcp is an internist. I was diagnosed with celiac at mayo. And have found more relief and help for day to day living at a naturopath.

To be honest I am not sure he even recognizes celiac as a disease. Or just doesn’t care because he doesnt how he can help me. Though nutritional deficiencies can take 10 years to recover from.

He tells me not to take pain pills smoke or drink but says diet has no effect. He shuts down everytime I mention something on this vein.

As a result I see him as my lab orderer and drug pusher. I am not able to communicate so much to him that I err on the side of caution and tell him less maybe he could be more help in certain areas.

I view him not as scientific and educated but as indoctrinated and close minded a rat taught to follow fomulas to narrow down choices and pigeon hole people. Reminds me of a max Planck qoute. Something about dinosaurs.
Ah here it is A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. Max Planck

That sounds harsh and I have no ill feelings toward him. I think his talents lie in other areas. He preformed a good colonoscopy. He is just not intellectually curious and very safe when it comes to treating patients.

I have recently and after all these years found a new pcp. It is night and day. She works for me is willing to listen and at least doesn’t shut down when I mention diet or naturopaths. She wants to know what I am experiencing and what is helping.
I am renewed by that experience. Side note her boys are quite ill themselves so I think that has made her more open to alternative care.

Any way I relate all this in hopes that you won’t take this the wrong way. Just as the other side of the coin maybe dinosaurs don’t have to die off we just have to learn and want to work together. And I can tell you most patients want that.

@Rarebear The thing about pain is, as long as the treatment is effective for the patient, who cares if it is a placebo? From what I understand placebo is seen in patients in pain studies, and now we have had good studies to show statistically significant placebo effect for antidepessants. There is not significant placebo effect for things like infections or cancer.

I wish I had more luck with a pacebo type effect for when I had chronic pain. I seem not to be very susceptible, as I mentioned on your other Q.

So, if the acupuncture helped a few patients maybe it is worth a try, whether it is their own mind or not. Someone who is open to that sort of thing. Most likely it will help only a very small percentage of patients though.

I know people who take all sorts of herbs and supplements that I know have been shown not to help, but some people swear by them. My MIL has tried some sort of thing for athritic pain, another for cholesterol, and another soy thing for hot flashes. She probably has taken others. None have worked for her by the way, but she keeps trying stuff.

@JLeslie I’ve been saying the same thing for a long time: Who cares if it’s a placebo if it actually helps someone? It’s cheaper and easier on the body than some invasive and risky medical procedures that people do to relieve pain!

I think perhaps it’s all about control. Doctors, the AMA and big pharma all want to be in control of the kind of pain relief a patient gets. If it’s not sanctioned by them then it’s “bad”, even if it IS effective, but in the next breath they’re fine with a placebo effect working if they themselves prescribe/cause it. Do I have that right?

Wrong.
It is about honesty.
When something works because of the placebo effect, be it acupuncture, homeopathy, or faith healing, then the “practicioner” has to be honest and openly admit that it is the placebo effect that is at work there.
Instead these charlatans lie, and claim that there is some sort of magic at work.
That is, for instance, the difference between a stage magician like James Randi and a fraudulent charlatan psychic like Uri Geller.
They both use trickery to deceive the audience, but Randi openly admits that it is all trickery, while the fraud Geller pretends to have actual magical powers.

@snowberry As long as we aren’t talking about anything that is avoiding treatments to save someone from real harm. Hoping placebo or herbs will help with pain or mild depression is different that treating cancer with known cures. Don’t get me wrong, I know there are cancers where we don’t have good cures with modern medicine, I am not talking about that. Even Suzanne Summers who is very outspoken about natural cures and is very critical of modern medicine andnhow cancer is treated says for some cancers she would absolutely choose western cures. Things like childhood leukemia that has incredible cure rates is undeniable.

Look at Steve Jobs the Apple guy. By the grace of God his pancreatic cancer was discovered early when operable (this rarely happens) and he chose to go the natural route and is dead. He would probably still be alive today and healthy if he had had the operation.

Moreover, I am not in favor a doctor “prescribing” a placebo drug. But, I do think it is ok for them to say they have heard some people feel better with accupuncture, but they see no medical basis for it. I don’t like deception or dishonesty. Or, the doctor can just say nothing about accupuncture and if the patient comes across it themselves, so be it. As far as depression, a doctor can supply the studies that show for mild depression there is evidence that placebos treat it just as well, and the patient can consider not taking the medication anymore and possibly doing other things to help themselves.

Some “natural” methods have not been tested at all, so we really just don’t know. That is where I differ with most western medicine. I say if we don’t know and people find relief, then we can’t say it scientifically doesn’t work. Doctors generally wait for scientific proof something works before saying it does work. Understandably. Again, for things that can cause great harm we should opt for proven routes I think.

@ragingloli is correct. It’s about honesty.

So my question drills down to IF acupuncture works (let’s forget for the moment how) which form is correct? Chinese, Japanese, auricular all have different acupuncture points. How does the practitioner know which point to use? Does it matter which one? If it doesn’t matter, then what’s the difference between just randomly sticking needles in your skin?

@JLeslie Let’s say it is all placebo (which I’m not saying it is, in this question). A person goes to an acupuncturist, pays $60–120 (which I got from a Google Search) and it is placebo, isn’t the practitioner ripping the person off?

@Rarebear Is a doctor ripping a person off for promising something that doesn’t turn out right, the patient gets charged and it happens over and over and over again? It’s happened to me, and I’d say yes.

So, that said, if it is a placebo and the person is helped, they’re still ahead.

Maybe mayo’s advice in this arena may clear your ethical issues. I’m sure patients laud your concern for their pocket book.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/acupuncture/MY00946

Also auricular acupuncture seems to have an effect and should be aimed at patients for anxiety chronic and acute pain disorders. I have never had it so I learned something new. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2206232/#!po=64.0625

Yes it is an article but I thought it through and presented both sides concerns and the need for further study… It did also have links to some studies.

This is also a rational article that acknowledges the placebo component but still feels acupuncture has a place in healthcare. http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-10/acupuncture-relieves-pain-in-largest-study-of-treatment.html

Also go ahead and mention the placebo effect. I recognize it, and it has been proven that even if people know about a placebo effect they can still reap the benefits.

Also I happen to have read a few studies about the actual efficacy of traditional medicine when it comes and the placebo effect and realize it is as much part of western medicine as alternative.

@Rarebear I think it is complicated. Let’s say the acupuncturist believes in the healing powers of his craft. Is he being dishonest in that case? I had a doctor offer my husband an antibiotic for something that I refused (my husband does whatever I tell him LOL). 6 months later when we went to that doctor again I brought up trying the medication and the doctor said he no longer prescribes it because it was shown not to work. It begs the question why the hell was it ever being prescribed then? I’m sure the doctor believed at the time it would, or at least might, help. Is it different?