Do you have to be poor to advocate for the poor?

Someone with means doesn’t only (still) have the moral authority to call out a corrupt system.
I feel they actually have the moral obligation to do so.

^ this

Also, I think there is a logical fallacy wrapped up in these attacks on you, although I’m not sure what it is. Is it straight up ad hominem? I could be wrong.

It goes like this: If you oppose extreme wealth disparity, someone might discredit your position because you happen to have money. Do you recall Al Gore’s position on climate change being attacked ignored because he used a jet to go around presenting his position?

They are unable to respond to your criticism of an unfair system, and choose instead to attack you for having benefited by the system.

Certainly fucking seems like it sometimes.

…

I’m so tired of being called a ‘spoiled little socialist’ by people who have never lived in a shitty home with mold in the walls, wondering how they were going to make rent, power, and car insurance and still be able to afford to eat and put gas in the car in order to get to work.

I’m sorry your friend was rude. To me this is the same thing that was discussed in the question

Should women who don’t care if they are fat be ”fat shamed” by anyone?

Some see your position now and can’t imagine it being different. To them “rich” is part of your identity. So they just see a rich person “complaining” about capitalism.

If you’re ok with your wealth, (no reason not to be) then those with less can use all the advocates from other circles that they can get. Don’t let others talk you into being ashamed or doing less.

@Seek_Kolinahr, but I know exactly what that’s like and that’s why it’s important to me not to forget, and to do my part to create a world where hard work really does pay.

I know, @Judi, and I appreciate you for that.

My last job was at a small company with three owners.

They would sit around and spout hateful bullshit about poor people all day long. I wanted SO BAD to remind them that I still qualified for food stamps with what they were paying me, while they had the means to dick around on their event planning costing the an 18,000 dollar deposit, and fuck all of them.

made me cry (not the most recent comment but the one before that.)

Working with the apartment owners association and listening to some of them bad mouth their residents as a group. I got so angry. I told them, “in what business is it ok to look down on your customers like that???”

No, you don’t.

After a remark like that, I’d be reassessing what positive qualities this “friend” has. And their intelligence.

Taking risks does not always lead to rewards; many poor people got that way by taking a risk that didn’t pay off. Others would take risks if they had the means to do so, but they don’t so they can’t. Unless that was uttered totally tongue-in-cheek like a Colbert monologue, I would assume that your friend is, at best, sociopathic and a little dim.

Also note that Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are more than happy calling out the system that made them two of the richest humans on Earth. They want to pay more taxes, and failing that, have given massive money to charity.

I have concluded that people of means who bad mouth the poor as “defective” do so to avoid the penalties associated with a nagging conscience. There is an unfortunate and growing tendency from the right to brand the have-nots among us as indolent. It is rather convenient when you’re loaded to assume that ballooning poverty in the country is simply a reflection of a declining work ethic in “pampered” Americans.

@stanleybmanly Some also have no idea what it really costs to live because they’ve been well-off for so long. For instance, my mother was amazed that my rent was nearly double what it was the last time she paid rent, and many who belittle the poor seem to think that it’s possible to find a $400 apartment in Seattle. My rent is below-average at $935. So long as they think rent, which is the largest single expense most people have, is underestimated like that, they’ll continue to think that people can live like kings on $8/hr, and be able to afford a college education to better themselves to boot; after all, tuition is cheap, so just stop taking drugs and you’ll have no problem working your way through college.

^ Not to mention the sweeping generalization that many poor people get free rent from the government. Yes, there are people who get Section 8 help. I’ve never been one of them. There’s like a four year waiting list for that crap. Very few people actually receive that kind of assistance.

@Judi: I did see that post on FB but didn’t follow up. I hope you gave a good response to the friend. Can you let us know if and when you do?

Two words, @Judi.

Bill Gates

You don’t have to be poor to advocate for the poor but there is a statistical significance of a personal history of poverty or malevolence behind those who advocate for the poor. Case and point, @Judi was poor at some time in her life. A politician or a wealthy individual might do it for power/control/advantage etc. And, of course, there are the religious reasons.

You can be poor and pay rent of $1000. You do what the mexicans do – cram in a bunch of people into a single apartment and split the bill. Although, a place like Seattle, Los Angeles & New York City is not designed for everyone. You cannot expect to live in some of best cities and expect cheap prices.

Gates’ charity is amazing, but does little for the working poor in America. Most of the Gates Foundation work assists people in the 3rd world, and arts and literacy programs in the US. In some ways, it helps along the belief that Americans just have to get a firm grip on their bootstraps and everything will be just ducky.

@Seek_Kolinahr I believe that the working poor in America would be considered wealthy in much of the 3rd world. Were I Bill Gates, I, too, would work to keep people alive versus working on the quality of life of those with opportunity.

That’s not meant to be argumentative, just my personal view.

I don’t feel you have to be poor to advocate for the poor. I think you just have to fundamentally believe that the poor work hard also and that bad living conditions for some affect us all. The latter is actually a selfish view that you would think would matter to all people, but many people just don’t see the big picture.

Some of the argument about helping the poor is just a difference in opinion about what will effectively help the poor.

Also, those of us with enough money, you might say more than enough, I think would give up some of our earnings if we new it was being applied to a system that helped many people and society at large. I once asked a question if people who make high salaries, I don’t remember if I wrote a dollar amount, say $250k since that number is thrown around a lot, would give up 10% if they new people on the lower end of the salaries scale would all get $10k more a year. 10k to them is huge. I have no idea if that math actually works, but that was the idea. I would want to do it. Even at the househol income we have now I would want to and we don’t make that much. People asnwered that taxes do that, redistribute the money. I don’t want to redistribute through taxes, I want to more fairly distribute earned income. I couldn’t understand why people didn’t see a difference.

There are people who have been poor who still have a very “right wing” attitude about it. They help the poor through charity and the belief that if the poor get off their ass and work they will make more money, just like they did. Having been poor doesn’t necessarily mean you are for higher wages and agree with the more liberal way of thinking. In TN I knew plenty of people who had been poor and now are middle class and they still lined up with the republicans on discussions about helping the poor. I think many of the churches there reinforce it by promoting charity and hating the central government.

Just to counter one thing you said though, I always say the poor work hard, sometimes much harder than what people think. I watch shows like Undercover Boss and I get so bothered by the small wages many of the people make who work hard, often physically hard. Anyone who has not stood on their feet all day or had to lift all day has no idea. None. They cannot understand the toll it takes on your body, mind, and how it affects your entire life. But, people with money usually worked hard to get to where they are also. It often is a different type of work, might be less physical, although my career was very physical, but they also might have spent years in school, sacrificed, spent well over 40 hours a week at their jobs (I realize the poor sometimes work two jobs) traveled with business spending time away from their family, or taken jobs that cause them to move away from family in the pursuit of more money and career opportunity. So, people who do those things feel they deserve good salaries for their work and sacrifice. I know it is very complicated, I realize the poor often don’t have the opportunities, but the opportunity is more there now than ever before from what I can tell.

No matter what I think minimum wage has to change or nothing will change. We will always need people working the lower wage jobs, and there are people who have the skills for those jobs and feel suited for those jobs, but they should be able to live in a safe neighborhood and feed and cloth themselves without government help in my opinion, and that means we need higher wages. But, everything will likely be more expensive. All goods and services if we raise the minimum wage significantly.

@ibstubro Of course. Gates can do whatever he likes with his money, and as I said, his charity work is amazing. He is doing a great deal of good in the world. I’m just saying it’s not a great example of a person with means advocating for American poor.

Opportunity, my arse.

@Jca, I posted my response in the question.
@JLeslie, didn’t mean that the wealthy don’t work hard, many do, I know my husband does, I just meant that (as you pointed out) many of the poor work as hard if not harder. Hard work is not the “answer” to poverty.

@Judi I agree with that. I just see people write and say things like everyone who makes a lot of money stepped on scammed to get their money and I hate that attitude, I know you don’t think that way. To me it means the message poor kids get is the wealthy are less moral and children who try to break away from poverty have a psychological dilemma.

The answer to poverty seems like a very complicated issue to me. That’s the problem I guess. Going back to your original question though, someone who has never worried about money probably does have a really hard time understanding what it is like to be poor, but they can still advocate for them.

We have very different ideas on how to address poverty. The liberal view is to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. The conservative view is provide the opportunity rather than the money. We are stuck in a recession that just drags on. Until we can climb out of this hole, opportunity is limited. Hard work may not insure success but it certainly improves your odds.

I’d love to hear how the conservatives are creating all this “opportunity”, that will magically rain upon all those who are willing to work hard, and are currently killing themselves in skilled labor positions that, while once being lucrative jobs, now pay little better than minimum wage – when you can find the work. If you end up injured on the job? Sucks for you, you have worker’s comp exemption because we only hire private contractors now, and who can afford insurance at $8 an hour minus travel and materials and tools?

Do I have to be black to advocate for Civil Rights, or gay to advocate for LBGT rights, or a patient to advocate for patient rights, Or handicapped to advocate for rights for the handicapped, or an animal to advocate for the humane treatment of animals, or a worker to advocate for worker’s rights, or… ? No.

Like Kolinar, these “conservatives” puzzle me. They worry about how they’re taxes are spent and are overwhelmingly against welfare for the poor, but they universally advocate for corporate rights to pay non-living wages. When nearly every full time fast-food worker in Florida is qualified to receive one or more government supplementary programs such as Food Stamps, WIC, county health plans, day care, school lunches, utility and rent subsidies, etc., then, in effect, our tax money is being used to subsidize corporate workforces—the pay of which these good republicans strive hard to protect. Then these good conservatives denigrate these workers for being “takers” and not “givers” and constantly threaten to kill these programs, including mass transit initiatives, for which these workers cannot survive. 38% of the homeless in the Tampa Bay Area are full time workers. These are the cab drivers, the yard dogs, the fast food workers, the construction laborers. Cab drivers living in their cabs, for chrissake. Not sure what it’s like where you’re from, but TBay is getting more like Calcutta every day. Shame on these hypocritical sons of bitches and their crypto-corporate welfare.

@Seek_Kolinahr

I understand you may be frustrated but conservatives have no power. They can’t pass anything. Liberals on the other hand have had a free reign. We have doubled foodstamps, increased unemployment to 3 years, and nationalized health care. It’s not working. Give aways never do.

Uhm, food stamps have been reduced something like 60% if not more.

Take it from the chick trying to feed her kid on $90 a month.

Food stamp spending has doubled under Obama and is projected to stay that way. It’s not working.

Wait a sec. Food stamps have doubled because the NEED has doubled. Food stampsare in effect government recognition that you don’t earn enough to feed yourself.

There may be more people receiving food stamps, but the amount being given has been reduced dramatically.

I used to bring in more money and get $300 a month or more. I’m almost embarrassed at what I have to feed my child these days.

SNAP and food stamps have just been reduced, per person.

The conservative position is that if you eliminate food stamps people will somehow fend for themselves. This simplistic notion may sound good. After all, anyone with eyes can see that there is certainly enough to go around. Hell, Ray Charles could see it. Which brings up a fundamental question. Why is there endemic poverty in a country with the wealth of the United States?

@Espiritus_Corvus You touched on part of what frustrates me. People seem to really look down on certain jobs, and so they don’t care if the people doing those jobs earn shit wages. Aren’t we all happy when the public bathroom we walk into is clean and the cab driver had a good night sleep?

Part of the big problem is housing prices in my opinion. As the economy gets better housing is getting very very expensive again. I just have such a problem with it. I think it screws up everything. I think it is one of the biggest contributors to the class differences from education to safety in neighborhoods and everything in between. It starts with income and what people can afford, but way back in the day I don’t think people looked for such high profits on selling houses and people were not as comfortable borrowing money to buy one.

@Jaxk: “We have very different ideas on how to address poverty. The liberal view is to take money from the rich and give it to the poor. The conservative view is provide the opportunity rather than the money.”

Opportunity? Remember, the “liberals” also feel that they are providing opportunity as well. But let’s pretend no “liberals” were blocking the way. What’s the solution here? What is this “opportunity” you speak of that is simply a conservative majority/president combination away?

@stanleybmanly

Actually the conservative position is that if you improve the economy, there will be less demand for food stamps. It’s a matter of addressing the root cause rather than the symptom.

Who can afford to buy a house?

Rental costs are absurd, too, for anyone trying to live on pittance.

In order to upgrade from the place I’m living now, which is literally killing my asthmatic husband due to mold, we have to have first, last, and security – so three months’ rent on a place more expensive than we already only barely afford.

@stanleybmanly If we took away food stamps maybe the working poor would start organizing again. I am not saying we should take away food stamps, I don’t want anyone to be without food, but in an odd twist I think the wealthy who pay unlivable wages make out like bandits because the employee has food stamps to survive. The more extreme this situation gets, the more likely there will finally be a revolt from the people.

@Jaxk And in the meanwhile, if you stop feeding people maybe some of them will die, and the poverty numbers will improve due to population culling?

@Seek_Kolinahr Rents also, all housing. Not all states have that high security amount, FL does tend to be high. I think in NC I paid $200 security, I don’t remember in TN.

@Jaxk I would agree that improvement in the economy should lower the demand for government assistance, but take a good hard look at the current economy. Believe it or not, the recession is officially over. The stock market is up, yet wages continue to decline or at best remain stagnant. But the rich in the country haven’t seen a recession and have magically managed to actually accumulate even more wealth throughout its duration. Moreover, this trend is actually accelerating in virtual lockstep with declining wages. We are actually living through the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the world, and there can be little doubt as to which direction the money is flowing.

@tom_g

It’s really not very complicated. We need to stop trying to fix everything. We went into recession 5 years ago. We are not recovering because we are continuously screwing around with the economy. Regulation, taxes, health care, hell everything is changing constantly. We need a little stability and we can’t get it. Just the health care law created something like 60,000 pages of new regulations. Everybody involved with health care, employers and insurers have to evaluate the cost and compliance of these and they’re not expanding or investing in their business while doing so.

We should have come out of this recession years ago but we haven’t. Businesses can not plan nor see what is coming in the future, so they stagnate. Until businesses see a stable future, they won’t improve or grow

Your answer is “do nothing”?

@Jaxk – I thought you were going to explain this whole “opportunity” thing, and how it will help poverty. Like I said, let’s pretend “liberals” have all gone one an extra-long vacation and aren’t returning. Conservatives have all of the power.

So, now what? What is this opportunity and how does it relate to poverty?

So regulation and meddlesome government interference troublesome bureaucracy etc. are impeding the economy, yet the rich get richer.

@Jaxk Back to food stamps. Do you find it curious that as wealth piles up in the nation’s mansions, the word goes out that “we” can no longer afford to throw a few crumbs at the poor?

@stanleybmanly

I would agree with you. But we need to understand why the money is flowing the way it is. Government has created this situation. Low interest rates and quantitative easing have guaranteed a stock market rise. Who benefits from that? Also you have businesses that aren’t investing in the future because it is too uncertain. That creates a situation where money is coming in but not being spent. Think of it like this. Say you need a new car. Your old one is paid off and just beginning to develop minor problems. You could buy a new car this year but you know that there are new regulations, mileage standards, and incentive packages planned for next year. So you wait. While you are waiting your costs are lower, no car payment, so you can put more money away.

That’s what businesses are doing right now, they’re waiting to see what’s coming next year. in the mean time they’re still earning but not investing. We need them investing again.

^ What the hell does that have to do with income opportunity for poor people?

In my town and my former Church there is a family that is the largest carrot producer in the wold. I had one friend brag about how generous they are. I googled their company name and the word “grant” and immediately found a 4.1 million government dollar grant that they had been awarded. I know that these people are in the billionaire status. I have no idea how much they get in farm subsidies and tax credits.
Personally, I am more peeved at this gross corporate welfare than I am about the mother who swindles an extra $50 in food stamps.

Just to sound a little conservative for a second, I do think markets sometimes can work some of this sort of thing out, and the government can screw some of it up sometimes. As much as I believe in regulation, government sometimes helps along the status quo. But, the markets wait until things hit an extreme because there is such a lack of integrity and so much greed, and people have to suffer in a horrific way until the change comes along. Venezuela voted in Chavez, many Americans do feel the need for more help from the government. Why? Because too much of the masses can’t catch a break, don’t get a fair shot. @Espiritus_Corvus mentioned Calcutta, well, in that country people are more accepting of the life they are “given” maybe that is changing, but not Americans. The shit eventually will hit the fan and it will be bad.

@Jaxk I think confidence in the economy has some effect, but it is not the whole reason. Companies can get away with paying less right now, so they do it. Companies can stretch employees to the brink, because people are afraid to be without a job, so companies take advantage of it.

Let’s say the economy revs up and there is all sorts of confidence but many comapnies still pay the fast food worker and Target cashier $8. So? How will the better economy help those people live better if their salary is still way below the poverty line?

@Judi That is upsetting. But, isn’t that an example of a government screw up?

@Seek_Kolinahr

When they begin investing in their businesses again, it creates jobs. More jobs means better wages. It’s really as simple as that.

@Jaxk , 30 years of “trickle down” has proved that they don’t invest in new employees. They invest in new technologies to eliminate employees or they pocket the money. Greed is stronger than honor it would seem. Even the religious ones seem to have forgotten, ‘To whom much has been given, much is required.”

@Jaxk

What jobs? In what fields? In which countries?

I don’t see anyone exactly chomping at the bit to bring automobile assembly lines back to Detroit, or any kind of manufacturing industry back here from China. Even call center jobs are hard to find, shitty as they are.

Skilled labor is falling to the lowest common denominator. The job goes to the lowest bidder, which encourages lower bidding. And then half the time the rich bastard who just lorded over you while you installed $30,000 worth of flooring for $1 a square foot decides not to pay you anyway.

Are we really relying on big box retail jobs to keep the bottom 47% fed, clothed, and housed?

@Seek_Kolinahr

There is no reason we can’t bring the manufacturing jobs back, at least to some extent. It won’t happen by creating a hostile environment. We are our own worst enemy.

Didn’t the stock market crash and Lehman Bros., et al, went belly up due to Dubya’s hands off lack of regulation?

(without reading answers)

Anyone can call out a broken system at any time, this is America, and it’s not only our right to do so, but our obligation.

If all the people who were poor at one time, paid back into the system or made it a priority to help others, perhaps we could stop hearing about all the ‘rich asshats’ and what jerks they are for having succeeded.

Personally, I am better now than I have been in awhile, through a lot of hard work and determination to pay off debt. Not everyone has the same goals as I, or as good luck in jobs, luck and friends. But even with all that, I’ve struggled and do my best to give back, which I feel is my personal moral and financial obligation. No child should go without and no parents should worry about feeding their kids in America, at least not while I’m aware of it and have an extra dollar to spare.

American greed is the problem, some of us just get better off and then try to forget the struggles after we’ve got our homes and cars, but thankfully there’s a lot of us that remember the struggle, remember not having good clothes or shoes, or heat or lights, and we pay it forward. :)

@Jaxk First let me congratulate you on your willingness to fly through so much flak. You’re fielding a mountain of questions remarkably quickly. You are virtually admitting that the wealthy in the country have discovered a method of fattening up without investing in pesky businesses and their troublesome workers clamoring for a living wage. So where’s the incentive. If I were to arrive here from outer space, I would describe the current US economic model as one in which the principal paradigm is simply that THE RICH GET RICHER—NO MATTER WHAT.

@stanleybmanly

Actually, I’m not sure what is wrong with the rich get richer all the time. The trick is to make everyone get richer. The problem we have now is not that the rich are getting richer but rather that the middle and lower classes are declining. That started after the recession of 2000. Median wages leveled off and since the recession of 2008 the median income has declined. If we want this problem behind us, we need to get these recessions behind us. Economic growth in the 3–4% range would do wonders for both the rich and poor.

@Jaxk It’s not going to happen through wishful thinking or the goodwill of corporate bigwigs, either.

@Jaxk This is true! However the current reality is such that is now NECESSARY that the lower and middle classes take a hit in order that the rich get richer, and lo and behold, it has come to pass.

@stanleybmanly So let’s have the corporate bigwigs lose money in the boardrooms, you don’t think that will trickle down too?

If we don’t take care of the stockholders, we all suffer, whether it’s right or wrong, that’s how it is. So I guess we should put a cap on corporate profit, do you really think that will go over via either party?

@KNOWITALL No. this isn’t about driving corporations out of business. It’s about a system that has been engineered to transfer wealth- Robin Hood in reverse. This is what’s happening now , and it’s been going on for awhile. If you are living in an environment where the rich are getting richer, while EVERYONE else is falling behind, then the only possible conclusion is that wealth is flowing uphill at the direct expense of those below. Trickle up economics.

It sounds like we’re stuck in this ‘Fixed Pie Theory’. That is there is only so much wealth to go around. I I make more than my fair share, someone else must make less. If I earn a buck, I must have taken it from someone else.

If that is what you all believe, we will never come to any consensus. Wealth expands. Everyone can make more, it doesn’t require taking from one to give to another. I think this is where we miss each other.

There may have been a time when a rising tide lifted all boats. But now the tide is going out, yet the yachts still rise. The only way the they are able to achieve this is by riding on the tops of the submerged canoes and rowboats.

@Jaxk – Still don’t want to paint us the best case scenario? I’m serious – what would it look like? What “hostile environment” could conservatives remove to bring back manufacturing, and what would this look like for all citizens? What would happen to poverty?

@KNOWITALL, putting a cap on corporate profit won’t help. They will just continue to take it out in huge salaries. Salaries are considered an expense and reduce the profit.

You notice that the huge salary grabs occur regardless of performance. There are nations in the world that put caps on corporate salaries.

Maybe we don’t have to DO anything.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/singularity/2012/07/23/the-end-of-chinese-manufacturing-and-rebirth-of-u-s-industry/

@judi I’m wondering why they’re so selfish as to reduce expenses to create more profit while themselves taking no loss, ever if possible. I mean, it’s not all Republicans in boardrooms across America, I’m sure.

The business climate of the U. S. is the reason for all our economic woes, not American greed. With minimum wage, OSHA work place safety, and environmental protections employers cannot afford to produce jobs or products. That is why most of our manufacturing jobs are leaving the the country.

Eventually there will be a return of the pendulum when people in other countries start getting a taste of affluence and start demanding the same kind of protections that have been instituted in the U. S.

“Cannot afford?” Bullshit.

Choose not to in order to increase profits? Absolutely.

There is no shortage of products being manufactured. The problem is where the jobs to produce them are, and the wages being paid to do so.

@YARNLADY But if corporations didn’t have to show profit to board members every single year, even in recession, then many people wouldn’t have lost jobs to make up the difference.

That happened across the board this last recession which is why unemployment went up and people lost their homes, etc… Well, a lot of people owned homes they couldn’t afford as well, based on the loan fraud, too.

Having a safe work environment, minimum wage, etc…are all costs of normal business.

@Seek_Kolinahr – I think it’s a valid point. Final price of the items you and I buy are based on their total costs plus whatever their expected markup is. If you increase costs, whether through parts or labor, we all pay more.

“There’s no shortage of products being manufactured” is true, but companies have to choose whether to make those goods in the US and raise the prices on the hope that “Made in the USA” doesn’t damage their business, or to manufacture elsewhere for cheaper and price their products accordingly.

Don’t get confused and think the price is fixed and companies choose how to spend portions of that sale. The total costs determine the price directly.

Right now “made in the USA” is a luxury that not everyone can afford.

Mostly because we have people living on 4.50 an hour.

@KNOWITALL I don’t believe the corporate profit system is at fault. What I see making people rich is various tricky investments. As in investor myself, I approve of profits.

@YARNLADY Well, if it comes down to you losing a couple grand and someone losing their jobs, and you’d rather them lose their job, then you may be part of the problem unfortunately. I mean no offense, but I’m being real with you here.

To me a profitable company can accept ‘less’ profit for a year or two during a recession rather than take it out on their employees (whom had no part in it) when they know everyone else is laying off. Does that make sense?

@funkdaddy What the market will pay is the biggest influence on the price. The margin made on each widget depends on the cost to produce it. Assuming the product makes a profit no matter what (which of course is not always the case) then a company gets to decide if they will take a smaller profit and make it in the US or make a bigger profit manufacturing abroad. A company will happily make $10k on a single paperclip if they can, even if it only costs a penny to make it.

Companies absolutely are pushed to increase profits every year by the board, even if their profits were already good.

@JLeslie And we can’t have the company devalued because they get loans, etc.. based on the valuation of the company, I believe.

Unfortunately @KNOWITALL, capitalism has no morales. Actually, in a corporation the directors first fiduciary obligation is to the shareholders, not the employees.

@Judi I know but capitalism is not purely a Republican characteristic .

Good article about how Dems and Reps have messed up—
http://www.socialistalternative.org/literature/laborparty/ch1.html

@JLeslie – how much will you pay for a car?

You can’t really say. You’ll pick a car and decide if it’s worth it, but you’re extremely unlikely to buy the cheapest car out there. There is some feature you want to pay more for, so you will.

Most things that we buy that are manufactured these days are luxuries. Food, rent, gas, utilities, and basics aren’t manufactured.

Pricing for luxuries is set by perception.

I’m not arguing for this type of pricing, I just think it’s better to recognize how it is than complain about how we see it

@Jaxk The Conservative position is that if the economy improves and all of the gains go ONLY to those at the top, then the need for food stamps etcetera will go down, when the truth is that the need for such programs will only reduce if a rising tide lifts all boats, but that is a Socialist position.

If I am wrong then the Conservative position is a delusional theory with no basis in fact; flawed beyond redemption and therefore invalid. It may look good on paper, but since that isn’t how the really real world actually works, their opinions on economics can be taken no more seriously than the rantings of lunatics or the babblings of babies.

There is a reason “Horse and sparrow” economics was discredited well over a century ago. The increased poverty rates and the increased need for government spending are concrete evidence.

As for your “fixed pie” theory, any added pie is never seen by the bottom percent; for us, there is the same amount of pie there was years ago while the top gets all the new pies being baked. But given that you are wrong about so many other things, I am not surprised that you misread the position of your opposition as well.

@funkdaddy Aren’t we agreeing? But, there is faults in that system, especially when the rich are getting richer and the rest of the people are getting poorer and people are willing to use credit to buy things. People with money will pay more, so the cost of goods goes up, especially true with housing, and then investors also will buy the housesm and the average guy in hot housing market has to pay the higher prices somehow or not buy a house. Same with cars to some extent the very lux cars like Ferrari and Bugatti are in a class by themselves and their market simply is people with means, but the moderate stuff gets their prices pushed higher also when the companies might make a very good profit even at a lower price. Then, if they sell less items because of it, their total profit maybe suffers because fewer are sold. It’s balance.

Delta airlines I swear goes after the routes with the least competition and then charges such a gouging price for the flights it is ridiculous. I saw this in Memphis (a former hub of theirs, previously it was Northwest who did the same). I would have flown a lot more when I lived there if the prices were not ridiculous. I knew better having lived in other markets and also because their prices were so disgusting it was obvious. $750 round trip with plenty of notice from Memphis, TN, to Gulfport, MS. Of course that was for several years after Katrina, maybe they have finally come down. Start in Little Rock, connect in Memphis to the same plane as the $750 flight, and pay $250 instead. They just charged what the market would pay, but possibly cut off their nose to spite their face. I thiught about reporting them for gouging to the government more than once, because it took advantage of the aftermath of the natural disaster. But, mostly business people were flying that route and the companies just paid.

That’s another problem, if it is on the companies dime prices go up. We just relocated to FL and the company was going to pay $1400 per car to transport our cars and we hooked them up with a company we typically use for $800. They hear relocation company and they charge what they can. Same with my furniture and storage, I am sure I am paying too much, but my husband’s company agreed to the price, and now I have to take over that amount. It’s annoying to know when you are being ripped off. Like say the flowers are for a wedding and the price you get quotes will typically be 20% higher, they have done unscientific studies regarding this sort of thing.

You know what’s expensive? Milk. Four bucks a gallon. When I was employed, I had to work for a half-hour to afford a gallon of milk.

Fucking America.

We should find you better work. You’re smart, detail oriented, and have a better than average grasp of technology (at least). We should be able to find better than $8/hr.

What’s next?

@Seek_Kolinahr Milk is one the few things I buy organic and it is sky high. We don’t drink much of it though. About a gallon a month. Oh, I sometimes buy cage free eggs, but I buy about two dozen a month, so also not that much impact.

What type of work are you looking for? Are you looking? You get unemployment right now, right?

I buy milk at Costco. It’s about $2.89 a gallon there. It’s cheaper to buy the gallon there than to buy less than that at another store, even if I don’t need a gallon.

My favorite time in life was when I lived in a commune. We grew our own food and produced our own milk, recycled our waste, harvested our wheat, made and sold bread, milk and other food. We took in foster children, made our own clothes and in short had near zero carbon foot print. We were all poor, in terms of having zero money.

This can only be done in small groups with a strong leader.

@YARNLADY, there is a revival of people living in intentional communities like that. One if the most famous is The Simple Way

@Judi There are also the Amish, but I’m not about to eschew five centuries of technology to be well outside of mainstream society.

It’s a pipe dream of mine to run a commune, complete with farm. Someday, maybe.

@all concerned -

I’m well aware of the reality of the job market in my area and what the options are for someone in my situation. It is ironic that one of the one openly poor people on this site is being singled out for unasked-for advice on their career path, in a thread about supporting the underemployed instead of demonizing them.

Me to @Seek_Kolinahr but my husband values his privacy to much. He’d never go for it.