Would you be in favor of having the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution revised, in part so that babies born to foreign parents on US soil are not granted automatic citizenship?

No, not at all. Amending the constitution is meant to be rare and for seriously momentous issues. This thing – chinese babies – is small and almost inconsequential.

Besides, when you start messing with the constitution, you open the door to all sorts of nefarious game playing with each party. The extremists would rule.

I don’t see what the problem is with chinese citizen babies in the first place. This is a big so-what, populist campaign, but so what? The numbers of people who do this are very very very small, when compared to the numbers of people born every day.

This is a made-up issue,

No. I’m not in support of revising the constitution at all, especially for something that isn’t a big deal.

You have a problem with Chinese consumer products and Chinese babies? Yikes.

Not a small problem, and not just related to China.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Border-baby-boom-strains-South-Texas-1901494.php

We wring our hands over the supposed hordes of illegal aliens, then look for ways to eliminate actual legal pathways to immigration? How about making the more conventional pathways a viable possibility, so people don’t have to go to such ridiculous lengths to get citizenship?

Not seeing how this is a problem.

@livelaughlove21: If there is a history of lead in toys, multiple brands, no matter what the origin, do I want my kid playing with them? No. If there’s a history of pet food killing hundreds of pets, multiple brands, do I want my pets eating that food, if I can avoid it? No.

My link above explains more in detail what the issue is with the citizenship thing. It’s not just about the Chinese/surrogate issue, which is definitely relatively small.

If Chinese people want American citizenship so badly for their newborn that they go through all of the expense and effort of using surrogate mothers, I say by all means, let them have it (and leave the constitution alone).

As much as I am very grateful to be a U.S. citizen, it took no special effort on my or my parents’ part. Somebody just slapped my ass in a hospital on Long Island, and here I am…

I’m all for as much immigration as possible. Open the borders, make the path to citizenship as easy as possible. If we want to keep Social Security going some young workers paying taxes would help.

Perhaps make a exception that if you immigrate you are only allowed to collect SS if you have paid into the system for over 30 years to prevent people immigrating when they are 60.

No. This is a non-issue imo.

Fuck NO. Bloody Hell, we have become a despicable people.

Absolutely not. Are Americans now trying to invent way to become yet uglier?

Amendments always make me nervous. They should do that do everyone, whether one is for the amendment or not.

The born child part of the 14th amendment is constantly abused.

Bearing a child is in no way a substitute for proper naturalization.

Why not get rid of birthright citizenship altogether? Make everyone earn their citizenship.

I’m in favor of changing it. I could be swayed to change my mind maybe, I am open to hear arguments, but if you asked me to vote today, I am in favor of modifying it.

So lots of change it but no mention of how to change it. Toss out some ideas on how you would make it better and let us discuss those.

Egads, we’ve become a xenophobic lot, haven’t we?

Exactly how many generations do we have to go back in my family, your family, or the article writer’s family to find an anchor baby? My money is on three or less.

@Seek_Kolinahr My father’s parents are Ellis Islanders, his brother born in Europe, he was born here.

I guess that makes me a second generation American – timing.

If a zygote is conceived in Russia or Mexico but is born in US, can that person really be a citizen? If a zygote is a human being with full rights then is he/she by default a Russian citizen. We gotta do something about this.

That’s ridiculous, @MadMadMax

I hope you’re suggesting conception-records with your tongue in your cheek.

@Seek_Kolinahr Guess

I don’t know you well enough to guess at this point, and I left my crystal ball in my other pants.

I think immigration should be a state issue, there are good effects from immigration but there are so many negative impacts that people can’t even fathom because they’ve never really experienced the downside.

@Seek_Kolinahr

GA for “Anchor Baby.”

I was tempted to use the term but didn’t want to dilute my statement with crass yet accurate words.

This time anyway.

@cheebdragon I think each state should have it’s own President, constitution and guarded borders and armies. You should need papers proving what state you were born in. If you want to move to another state, you should apply for citizenship and be required to relinquish citizenship in your previous home-state. Each state can then produce it’s own currency and it would be up to the free choice of voting citizens whether they wanted to reinstate a slave based economy in their home state.

It should be noted that the problem extends far beyond that posed by the Chinese.

I guess we’d never know if we were being overrun by Canadians, since they look just like real Americans.

@thorninmud From my direct, long-term experiences, being overrun by Canadians would do this country a world of good.

Yes it would. But we would easily be able to pick them out. Being very polite and having a degree of natural humility would make them instantly identifiable in most places…

I was in Italy visiting friends about three weeks after 9/11.

Bush was apparently pushing for support for US retaliation in Afghanistan. American newspapers were lauding the tremendous support and friendship extended to us in our hour of need by among others, Italians.

Meanwhile in Italy the streets were filled with protesters who did not want their sons, husbands, brothers, boyfriends, neighbors, countrymen dieing in a war in Afghanistan when they actually did not really have a great deal of faith in the US. People were arguing and debating everywhere.

I could not get through the angry crowds that filled the streets. I couldn’t reach my friend’s apartment. I was in the midst of a literal riot.

I wasn’t a total novice. I’d seen antiwar demonstrations go sour years earlier. Chanting protesters were met by angry “construction workers” running towards them carrying huge flags. I knew it could get very nasty.

A policeman in powder blue uniform and a white manbag came toward us looking concerned. He said: “You are Canadian, Canadian.”

And that’s what I did. When I had to ask directions, I’d be asked: “American?” Answer: “No Canadian.” Ah, no problem.

I worked my way toward the piazza Santa Croce, got in taxi after waiting what seemed like a lifetime, and went to stay with another friend in a farmhouse outside the city.

Say you’re Canadian.

Know how to “NOT” act like an American.

Canadian. You’ll always be fine.

What if they make me spell Saskachoowan Sasketchewan Saskatchewon one of the provinces ? Or even ask how many provinces there are ?? What then ?

I’ll tell you what then…..I’m screwed, that’s what….

P.S. What’s a ‘manbag’ ??

@OneBadApple
You make something up and then insist that you are right.

Yeah, sure. I may as well tattoo ‘Arrogant American Asshole’ on my forehead….

@OneBadApple People who know you, know where you came from. People in the streets can barely speak English if at all, let alone know Saskatchewan exists – besides, I could have spelled it.

What if they were testing if you were an American; do you think they’d ask you where Sepulveda was and how it’s spelled?

They carried white messenger bags at a time, cross strap bags; when a lot of American men cringed at carrying bags and called them “manbags” as a put-down.

It was bad attempt at humor on my part.

Now that guys carry laptops, we don’t have to wonder whats in their pocketbooks.

@johnpowell I would say minimum one parent must be legal in the US. I might even be stricter than that if I give it more thought. Note I say legal, I did not use the word citizen. Many western, industrialized, nations do not have open Jus Soli like we do. It is mostly the Americas, and some other nations. The 14th Amendment was for the children and grandchildren of the slaves we brought over, who we barely used to even count as a whole person, let alone a citizen.

@MadMadMax ‘Sepulveda’ ??......Isn’t that the thing you flip pancakes with ??

People – look at what is happening in Hispaniola. All because of a poorly drafted constitutional provision. Provisions relating to citizenship can be tricky.

I was reading up some more and thought you all might be interested in the map of the world regarding this topic found in the middle of this wikipedia page.

Dominican people traditionally (if I can use that word) do not like Haitians. That’s a long standing problem. I have talked to Dominican people who are otherwise totally reasonable except when they talk about Haitians.

This is all kind of odd. In reality the US is not the promised land anymore. It’s much more stratified than other industrialized countries.

The rich get richer and poor stay poorer. That’s the facts.

And Mexicans are not running here to wash our cars. The poorest sections of Mexico are being developed by large corporations like Volkswagen…...and Mexicans who only a generation ago would have been migrant workers are completing engineering degrees and staying home.

If Chinese couples are paying American women to give birth to their kids on US soil and, thereby, give them dual citizenship, it may well be for much more complex economic reasons. These are wealthy Chinese people – not the peasants who wept when they saw the Statue of Liberty emerge out of the fog of NY harbor.

Really, I want open borders. American food is shit.

I don’t think we need to revise anything just actually enforce current laws! I mean, there are a lot of immigration rules that make sense and if they were taken seriously we would have a better handle on our borders and folks coming in. Picking and choosing which laws to follow and ignore is our biggest immigration problem. That’s my take on it.

I need a pressing problem as a reason to amend the constitution, and amending it to take away rights should never be considered unless failure to do so posed an obvious, existential threat to the survival or well-being of the nation. Immigration built America. It is not a threat except to right-wing bigots who want white power to reign supreme forever.

@ETpro I prefer not to think of myself as a right wing bigot.

@ETpro Yeah! (What I said was pretty good too…)

@JLeslie What make immigration threatening to you?

@ETpro Not at all belittling your obvious awesomeness on these matters but I can see why @JLeslie would think you generalized a bit there… I mean, democrats did write and fight for jim crow and all to be fair…

@ETpro I wouldn’t use the word threatened. I just don’t like the idea of someone here illegally popping out a baby and then the baby has all rights as an American citizen. At the same time I want a path to citizenship for the children who have grown up here, because I don’t see how we can turn our heads (meaning I believe our government purposely turns it head, because businesses like having illegal immigrants here from what I can tell) and let illegal immigrants work here, build lives here, and have children and then the children raised here be thrown out or not have the same opportunities as an American as adults. I think those kids should be allowed to stay legally whether they were born here or came here when they were 3 years old.

The anchor babies get food stamps, and all ther social service if their parents are poor, and I would bet the majority of anchor babies are poor.

Remember, I said as long as the parents are legal I am ok with it, they don’t have to be citizens.

That just to say, neither party is exempt from it’s crummy decisions and far out there ideology.

@DWW25921 You aren’t serious are you? The democrats then were not the democrats of today. The former racist dixiecrats are the right wing republicans of today.

@JLeslie Maybe to a point. It’s unfortunate we still have to debate this crap though… It would be nice if it just ended and became a historical blight. I don’t think all right wingers are like that just as I don’t think all far left wingers are tree hugging hippies. Why can’t we all just get along?

@DWW25921 I don’t want to get far off the topic of the questions at hand, but for me right wingers and left wingers rae the extremes. Republicans and democrats are something else, they are not synonomous. I Republican is not necessarily a right winger in my opinion. I am a liberal democrat on almost all social issues. My SIL is also a liberal democrat on most social issues, but she agreed with the Arizona laws for local law enforcement to address immigration problems in the state (I disagree with it) and she is a Mexican immigrant herself.

@JLeslie I’ve never lived in a border state personally but it seems to me that if a law was voted on and passed than there’s probably a good reason for it. I just think that not enforcing certain laws and focusing on others sets a bad precedent.

@DWW25921 I’m all for enforcing our laws, and amending them. Times change, and laws need to change with them. I am against the AZ law, because I think it makes communities less safe. People need to feel free and secure to report and give in ormation about a crime, without fear that they themseves might wind up deported. If someone is a criminal, gets arrested and convicted and is an illegal immigrant, they should be and can be deported or locked up. AZ is worried about crime regarding immigrants, same as my mom is where she lives outside of DC. The gang behavior of some immigrant groups is awful, she wants them thrown out of the country. There are already laws to get rid of them. One problem is borders are too loose and a lot of the time they can come right back. To be clear, I am not saying immigrants are more likely to be violent or criminals, I am only saying, if they are not citizens we should dump them back in their country and let that country deal with them. Why should we let criminals in our country? I am not calling illegal immigrants are criminals for being here without papers, right wingers say that, I am saying people who steal, commit violent acts, deal drugs, etc.

Most immigrants are looking for opportunity to work and live, and are not criminals. I actually want to make it easier for them to be legal, but not by way of baby.

@JLeslie Is there no way to anonymously report crimes in Arizona? I see where you’re coming from though. I just wish there was more consistency you know? Our immigration policy shouldn’t change depending on who has the white house.

@DWW25921 Anonymous is one thing, but what if they need a witness? Even anonymously people would worry about cops coming into their neighborhood where many illegal immigrants are if they think the cops can deport them. Plus, it isn’t easy to be anonymous anymore. Caller ID and also tracking phones is not very difficult for the police.

Most Presidents have agreed with having a better path to citizenship. I don’t know where our Presidents of say the last 50 years have stood on changing the 14th Amendment.

@JLeslie We’re on the same page for the most part I think. I think we need to pour over the laws and throw out the bad ones and enforce the good ones. The 14th amendment, in and of itself, isn’t a bad thing. It’s just being abused. If the border was adequately guarded and trespassing laws enforced it would be less of an issue. We live in a current culture of coddling those who trespass and that makes no sense to me at all. I’m all for immigration. I think it’s part of what makes America great. However it should be done legally. If the 14th poses a threat to our country than change it. I really think if immigration laws were enforced it would be less of a pressing issue.

@DWW25921 I think it is really quite complicated. We seem to not want a bunch of people from one country pouring in at once. We still have some quotas in place I beleve. But people tend to immigrate in clusters. The economy of one country gets bad and there is an influx of their people into America. Then, America makes it tougher to get in from that country. My girlfriend is having a terrible time getting her sister into America from Venezuela, but with Chavez many people are leaving Venezuela. My husband and his family are Mexican, they are tough on Mexicans too, for obvious reasons. Canada seems to look more at how much money are you bringing into the country and are you self sufficient.

Also, we give asylum to people from certain countries, and they really get everything handed to them and basically can’t be deported once here. We try to intercept them before they get here in cases like the Cubans coming across. It isn’t really fair though. The Hatians float across also, live with no real government in horrible poverty, and we don’t give them asylum, because of the politics. Honestly, I thought the Chinese could get asylum in the US, to go back to the OP’s mention of China, but maybe it is not automatic like Cuba. Cubans don’t have to prove persecution by the government, they just have to reach our shores and they are in.

Also, giving citizenship to babies born here encourages babies to be born here, which works against the economy of the country if born when a parent is not really ready emotionally or fnancially. We encourage the wrong thing.

We are aware of the fact that the Democratic and Republican parties have changed over the course of a couple hundred years plus or minus- right?

Although I am not American, this needs to be said, in agreement with @ETpro. Unless the matter is both urgent and important constitutional provisions relating to civil and human rights should be treated with care. These provisions are usually entrenched (needing a special majority in the legislature for amendment). Draft in haste and you and your descendants will have plenty of time to repent.

^You spelled “resent” incorrectly.

@JLeslie I really can’t argue the logic you shared and you’re right, it is complicated. Has the government and states lost focus on the issue? Why wasn’t this such a big deal 10 years ago? Or was it? Part of the natural progression of life as we know it is decay. We as a nation need to be on top of these issues and solve them before they become problems. I see where you’re coming from but like @ETpro said, “I need a pressing problem as a reason to amend the constitution, and amending it to take away rights should never be considered unless failure to do so posed an obvious, existential threat to the survival or well-being of the nation.” If this is a pressing problem in your mind honestly, I can be swayed. I just need more facts about the damage caused by not changing the law.

You have brought up several good points but changing a constitutional amendment would take a nation wide vote. How would this affect me and my locality in West Virginia? That may sound self serving but that’s the question that millions of Americans should ask themselves before voting. Look, I have no problem voting on what I think is best for my country but I need to know it’s more inclusive than just the border regions.

@DWW25921 Whose rights? The rights of those people who are not citizens? The babies are citizens because of the 14th amendment, but that is the very thing in question. The rights of the parents here illegally? Sure they should be given protection for human rights, but should we give them the same rights we give our citizens? The right that their child will be American? The right to receive welfare and food stamps? The child gets the money, but of course that is actually the illegal parent getting the money.

I found this article saying over $600 million a year is spent on social serices for anchor babies in California. I saw several similar articles. I think they are right wingish sites, but if the numbers are right, it is something to consider isn’t it? I would guess if the parents work under the table (partly our fault because we don’t give them papers to be legal and we look the other way at businesses employing them) then they easily qualify for social services even if they are actually earning over the poverty line.

I don’t want to encourage poor people to have babies, citizens or not. The money encourages it and so does the automatic citizenship. Having said that, it isn’t that I think poor people should be deprived overall of having children, I would never say such a thing, but some thought should be in the process.

I don’t want to encourage poor people to have babies, citizens or not.

Because procreation is a privilege of the wealthy…

Having said that, it isn’t that I think poor people should be deprived overall of having children, I would never say such a thing,

Except that you just did.

@JLeslie I think you’ve successfully convinced me that this is a nation wide problem and that altering the 14th amendment may precipitate solving it. Congratulations!

How would you propose wording the article in such a way as to solve the problem without encroaching upon the rights of citizens? How would you convince more hard line type people that this is the way to go? I mean, I’m an independent, I’m always going to vote for what I think does the country and my area the most good. I’m an easy sale. How would you convince the average American?

@Seek_Kolinahr I think that topic is extremely complicated. I want poor people to at least consider the financial ramifications of having a baby; many do. Middle class and wealthy tend to plan how many children they have, and that is all I am asking for from the poor. It is not that I have a problem with a child growing up in poverty (just hoping the neighborhoods are safe’ which is another discussion) I think family bonds, love and adult guidance all happens in poor families and are the most important things for a child. Poor and working parents are different that poor teenagers, never having had worked and living on social services from the day the baby is born. Too many poor people make no effort to plan a family. Don’t get me wrong, I know unplanned babies happen at every income level, but the poor tend to be more religous, less educated, and I have seen so many have two and three by their early twenties. One accident ok, but two and three, they are not accidents, it is a cultural phenomenom of some subgroups of the poor. Having multiple babies makes it harder to climb out of poverty.

And how exactly would you “plan” a family when you have no healthcare and are already rationing your toilet tissue? Suggest everyone below a certain income threshold take vows of celibacy?

Bear in mind that I sacrifice to assure I have the $10 per month I need for birth control. And that’s only going to work until this year’s prescription runs out in a few months. I know I can’t afford another office visit to my Gyno.

The insinuation that all people in poverty are living on assistance and have never known a day’s labor is insulting and disgusting.

You should know better.

Not only do I think the 14th amendment should stay as it is, I would be in favor of amending the constitution to allow an immigrant to run for president, provided the person had been a citizen for some specified number of years. I do not agree with his politics, but I think it is absurd that Arnold Schwarzenegger is not allowed to run for president.

I find it absurd that Arnold Schwarzenegger is somehow still relevant…

^ Duh. He was Conan.

Was.

@Seek_Kolinahr I am all in favor of free birth control, and for higher wages, and all sorts of ways to lift as many people out of poverty as possible. You are not the person I am talking about. You are way more knowledgable and logical. I do think it is a valid point that birth control costs money, but also for some people the cultural norm is having babies young, almost gives them status.

An example of having more than one, take for instance a woman I worked with, they are lower middle class I would say. Her son gets his girlfriend pregnant, they are teens. Ok, she has the baby and he moves in with her in her parents home. He graduates in the meantime, gets a job, tries to do the right thing, cares about the baby, cares about supporting it. They are on some sort of government subsidies. The teens aren’t getting along well, too much stress, eventually when the baby is just under a year old his gf is kicking him out and right about that time she finds out she is pregnant wth their second child. They were not so poor she could not afford birth control, because her parents helped pay for things for the baby and she lives with them rent free.

My sister was a big sister with Catholic charities. At one point when she is talking about birth control with this young teen girl who is considering having sex with her boyfriend, she tells my sister she can’t use birth control because that is like a double sin. Sex before marriage and preventing a pregnancy. That’s how her young Catholic mind worked. She also was very poor.

I know so many stories I could tell you. It is most likely the minority of poor people, but enough to notice.

If you were making $50k and your poor neighbors had three children, collecting support for all of them, do you want to pay for their decision to have babies? I am nt talking about someone who hits are hard time and needs interim welfare, I mean they are unable to pay for themselves and their child to begin with and then they have a second and third child, and now your child has a little less, because your taxes are a little higher to pay for other people’s children. I want all children educated, fed, and safe, and I will help pay for it for them and society, but when it gets extreme I find that frustrating. Maybe you don’t.

I think there are more expensive and important and less barbaric things to legislate than other people’s breeding habits. Or their religion for that matter. (did you suggest that low income people shouldn’t be allowed to be practicing Catholics?)

A much greater percentage of your tax dollars go to, say, oil and farm subsidies and absurd national defense costs.

But, you know, those goddamn poor people are there, where you can see them, all… being poor and shit. It’s so ugly.

I worked for a government / military contractor for 20 years and could tell you stories of wasteful (and sometimes borderline corrupt, criminal) spending which would make you puke. And that also includes our glorious NASA space program.

Poor people are visible, and are easy targets. And yes, a lot of social programs are at times exploited by people at the bottom of the economic scale. But nowhere near as outrageously and wastefully exploited as it commonly happens near the top….

@Seek_Kolinahr You are distorting my words. My grandfather was poor his whole life and in my mind he was one of the most successful and perserving people in my entire family.

What have I distorted?

Have you not posted that you believe the poor are frustrating, when they bear more children than you find acceptable? Did you not present three or four pointless anecdotes illustrating exactly which poor people you find frustrating – those being the ‘so many you have seen’ having a couple of kids in their teens and twenties?

But it’s ok for you to make sweeping generalisations about poor people, because you had a poor grandpa, who apparently had a job in a pickle factory (unless I am twisting the word ‘preserving’, there).

It’s nice to know you find me to be the acceptable type of poor, but that’s probably because you’ve never been stuck behind my car when it broke down in traffic while I was on my way to the discount grocery store.

I don’t think I can work my way out of this, obviously I have not presented my thoughts well, and now I have just set myself up to fail. I’ll leave by saying I think anyone can be poor, become poor, at any point and time in their life, and none of us are immune.

As far as the main question on this Q, I have always been around many many immigrants to this country, most came in legally, some didn’t. I think we should open our borders more and give them papers. We know they are here, I think it is better protection for them to be legal and not let employers take advantage of them, and they should not have to live in fear of deportation. Any child living here their whole life should not live with the threat of being deported to a country they have never known.