Is it better not to study or talk about race at all?

Why not just acknowledge it and accept it? I think a Black person knows they’re Black, the Hispanic person knows they’re Hispanic. Why not just accept it and not let it be a defining concept?

I feel that cultural awareness is a good thing. It’s only when you feel that different means inferior that we run into problems.

I am who I am.

I’m a white, Irish-American woman.

That fact means that my society sees me in a certain way. It also means that 70 years ago the society saw me in a completely different way.

70 years ago, in the city in which I grew up, I was expected to stay home, and bear children I couldn’t afford to feed to a man who drank too much and probably treated me badly, and accept that because he’s just upset he can’t find a job through all the “No Irish Need Apply” signs.

While current society still treats me differently to an extent because I am female, my Irish-American status has now become the majority, and no one would fathom not hiring someone because they are Irish, or not serving them in a restaurant because they are Irish, or whatever.

Black people wear the target of their discrimination at all times. They cannot escape it. There are people who still cross the street if a black guy is walking toward them. There are still people claiming white people “did more to help them n**ers” than anything and if they don’t appreciate their hip hop contracts and baggy pants we should just ship them all back to Africa.

When was the last time someone suggested we round up your ethnic group and send them “back where you came from”?

Just yesterday I was reading an article about a woman. I can’t even remember what it was about. Might have been something healthcare related. And one of the first comments on the blog article was “Oh, come on, is she even a legal citizen?”

Three guesses as to what she looked like and whether her last name ended with a vowel.

What I’m getting at is this:

People have a right to be who they are. They have a right to be accepted for who they are. Possibly even celebrated for that. I know I attend every Celtic Heritage Festival I can get my happy self to. We’re allowed to identify with a community, and to get together with people who have shared our struggles, and yes to be helped by organizations who are trying to mitigate some of the discrimination we see every day.

White-washing every other race is just another form of racism. It’s telling them they will not be accepted unless we can treat them just the same as we treat each other—but only those of us that choose to. Those other bastards that discriminate against you? You’re on your own there. But I’m not one of them, so that’s ok.

Bad math strikes again. 100 years ago, not 70

Burying heads in the sand promotes ignorance, by definition, the wrong way to go.

@JLeslie I think your thoughts are valid and I’ve often wondered the same thing. If folks talk about it as if it’s a big deal than it will be. On the other hand, if folks let it go and move on than maybe it’ll just move on! I mean, I have no problem with folks holding on to their identity but at the same time it would be nice if others weren’t judged for that identity.

Racism today is being used as a political pawn just as much as it was in the past. It just manifests itself differently. Instead of hangings we have “knockout” gangs. As long as it’s being perpetuated by people who have something to gain by it than it will never go away.

Not at all. To have it be unsaid and unstudied leaves each side not knowing how the other is thinking and feeling. It lets us forget our common humanity.

@Seek_Kolinahr It was not in my mind at all to not celebrate our national identities, religion, and whatever else we are proud to identify with. I’m glad you brought it up, because it makes me evaluate closer how I wrote my question and how people might look at the topic. I was thinking more in terms of negative stereotypes and groups being discriminated against, or groups that struggle more in society.

Your Irish example is a good example of how new immigrants often encounter discrimination in our country. I don’t know if the government ever intervened to change it, or if it changed over time on it’s own.

I think Martin Luther King, certainly by the winter of 1967, but elucidated beautifully in his 1963 I Have a Dream speech, saw the racial problem in America as a socioeconomic one. By 1967, he sensed that all the disfranchised in America, not just the blacks, were ready to come together under the banner of civil rights for economic justice. That was what the Poor People’s Campaign‘s_Campaign of 1968 was all about. They were making headway. They had submitted an organised set of demands to Congress and executive agencies, held nationwide marches, set up a tent city of 300 souls on Washington Mall. The multi-ethnic response shocked lawmakers and, I believe, J. Edgar Hoover and the President as well. Division among the needy has always facilitated wealth concentration into a plutocracy and without the divisions of racism and religion, etc, the goal of wealth concentration is in jeopardy. Unity among the lower classes is anathema to the wealthy and powerful minority. Racism as a perfect mechanism of social disunity and deliquescence because it is irrational and Irrational problems are unsolvable problems by definition. It keeps the ants confused, unfocused, disorganised, unable to unite long enough to carry the heaviest weights and therefore make the greatest change.

Traditional enemies, like poor Southside blacks marching down Chicago’s Michigan Avenue arm-in-arm with poor Appalachian transplants on national TV scared the shit out of a lot of important people in this country. These people were well aware of the potential numbers of dissenters, if King could make America’s poor suspend their internecine rivalries and become radicalized, they would work together for economic justice. This is what may very well have gotten him assassinated in April of that same year. Nobody has been able to put together a campaign anything like it—in intensity or size—since King’s death.

Steven D. Levitt said “Morality, it could be argued, represents the way that people would like the world to work, whereas economics represents how it actually does work.” You could swap sociology for economics without losing the meaning of that sentence. I think that you can no more fix racism (sociological behavior) by ignoring it and getting rid of all organizations aimed at reducing its impact than you can eliminate crime (immoral behavior) by repealing all laws and laying off all police.

@Espiritus_Corvus GA. I don’t think most people really internalize that King was wanting and fighting for economic justice, and he was not solely focused on civil and economic rights for black people, but for all people. I personally think focusing on the socioecomics is the better way to go, regardless of race. It’s why I mentioned the United Negro Fund. If they gave money based on economic needs, it would still be giving a lot of help to black people since they are disproportionately impovershed in our country. But, I am conflicted. I don’t think there is anything wrong necessarily with helping a particular group, or our own group. However, I do think when groups separate, segregate, themselves they maybe are part of the problem. It doesn’t help them move towards intergrating and being accepted.

I really think it is very complex. I am mostly thinking out loud, not stating opinions I strongly hold.

Well, we certainly seem to be punished when we even mention it for whatever innocent reason.

@Dutchess_III I feel that way too.

^^^ I agree with you both.
Interestingly enough, slightly off topic but…

I just finished watching the PBS series ” many rivers to cross” about african american history.
I never knew that africans were kidnapping and enslaving their OWN people for years before the europeans got involved in the slave trade. Eye opening and while not excusing the european atrocities, bottom line, black slavery did begin at “home” amongst various african tribes.

No, history can promote empathy which helps destry racism so to ignore is tacit acceptance.

I completely disagree with that approach so, no, I don’t think it would be better.

The desirable end point is for us to no longer take notice of race. That is not a suitable starting point!

@Coloma All countries enslaved others in different ways for whatever reason, not just Africans.

@Dutchess_III I knew about certain other cultures, romans, etc. but was still surprised, I didn’t know this fact about african culture.

I did. What I wonder is why they picked on the African race to enslave and not another race.

The problem with trying to eliminate it as an issue or discussion point is that it does not address inherent racism, as @Seek_Kolinahr outlined. There are inherent assumptions about race all around our supposedly color blind society, and the visceral reaction by many to the election of a black president has brought many of these to the fore.

So until it can be demonstrated that inherent racism has deputed, those programs that strive to even out the playing field a bit are necessary.

The thing is, we often get punished for mentioning race at all, which supersedes the chance to even talk about it. People get so touchy! Like my “Mexican/Indian” thread. I got slaughtered for suggesting that many Mexicans don’t have European blood and are, therefore, American Indians.
But I also got slaughtered for using the word “Indian.” I was accused of being racist and all vile manner of things, and I’m not.
I wish we could all just relax about it a little bit. Maybe that would help defeat racism too.

@Dutchess_III To some extent, I do agree that not very bright people equate discussions around race with racism, automatically. Otoh, most people’s discussions around race are racist. I wasn’t on the thread you mentioned and it’s best for my blood pressure that I stay away but just saying that some people living in Mexico (whether they identify as Mexican or not) are indigenous to the land is not racist. As for using the word Indian, I don’t necessarily think it’s the contemporary term and I do go back and forth between using Native American and Indigenous American when I teach. Some people will take issue with the term Native and some will take issue with the term Indigenous but, tbh, sensitivities felt around both terms are also the fault of racism and terrible pasts and presents experienced by the people identifying with the terms.

As for whether, we ‘can just relax.’ I really don’t think that’s something we should encourage people to do. Way too many people, especially white people, are relaxed around race where it’s either an eyeroll or something to make fun on Halloween and at hazing parties, etc. As for people of color, they hear ‘relax’ all the time and it sucks because racism is real and has real, ongoing and devastating consequences in their lives. It’s like, if you need a gender example, when women who are fighting sexism in all its forms are told to, you know, stop being so sensitive.

GA @Simone_De_Beauvoir. Yes it’s real, and I don’t mean “relax and ignore racism.” Not at all. But starting a flame war every time someone even mentions race doesn’t help either. I mean, how can you even discuss an issue when everyone is having an emotional melt down?

@Dutchess_III You can’t, really. But, I completely understand why many people have a very emotional reaction to talking about race, especially if they are people of color. Still, and this may be because I am constantly having discussions about race, I generally don’t get that response. I have learned how to reflect on my whiteness and privilege and come to the conversation with a genuinely open mind knowing I will never completely understand what it’s like to live as a POC in America and that, of course, I don’t deserve any of the benefits I receive and it’s completely unfair.

Laughing and Cryiing

@Unbroken Why?

It only matters who discusses it. I agree people should talk about race, but not at work with people you barely know, for example.

You don’t know if your coworker, or even that friend you met 2 weeks ago but seems bright enough will be able to handle the conversation.

@JLeslie “I do think when groups separate, segregate, themselves they maybe are part of the problem.”

This is my opinion on this facet of the conversation that I see brought up a lot, but if all we’re taught growing up in America is how people were segregated in the past, coupled with the subtle messages of segregation in the present, maybe adding in a hint of basic human nature…It’s easy to see how a mindset of “us vs. them” can arise is some people.

It’s easier to understand why a person doesn’t feel the need to thrust oneself headfirst into a culture they feel is foreign to them (especially when they’re taught they weren’t wanted in the first place) when you take some of this stuff into account.

@Blackberry My whole sentence was “But, I am conflicted. I don’t think there is anything wrong necessarily with helping a particular group, or our own group. However, I do think when groups separate, segregate, themselves they maybe are part of the problem. It doesn’t help them move towards intergrating and being accepted.”

Emphasis on the word conflicted. I don’t think helping ones own group in and of itself segregates, but when it is many things combined maybe it does. Again, I am interested in the discussion, and it is not firmly held opinions of mine, but rather trying to think it all through. As you know I am Jewish and we have the Jewish Federation that is mostly there to help Jewish people. Also, JCC’s around the country, although nonJews are not kept out of using the facilities, just like most rec centers, schools, and gyms with religious affiliations. No one is asking what religion the person is and no one cares.

You might remember something in the news about some Texas schools to stop teaching parts of black history, I once asked a Q about it. One thing I learned while living in TN is kids starts learning about segregation and slavery in elementary school. I think that is way too early. I don’t remember if TX just wanted to delay the subject or actually remove it. The reason I don’t want it taught so young, is I don’t want children, black and white and every other category to even be aware that mindset is possible if it can be avoided. I also worry most for very young black children being told they have some sort of legacy of being treated badly. I don’t want parents to mention that stuff to young children either. I want children to be told they are fabulous and beautiful and to pursue their interests.

You mention feeling foreign in a culture. Do you mean African Americans? Or, you are talking about people new to this country?

@JLeslie

The reason I don’t want it taught so young, is I don’t want children, black and white and every other category to even be aware that mindset is possible if it can be avoided. I also worry most for very young black children being told they have some sort of legacy of being treated badly. I don’t want parents to mention that stuff to young children either. I want children to be told they are fabulous and beautiful and to pursue their interests.”

Ditto. And I was making a general reference to anyone new to a culture.

@Blackberry But can’t this “not even noticing race” be taken to such extremes to the point it’s ridiculous and counter productive? For example, when we’re trying to describe a person we can use color….eye color, hair color, even suggest they are tan or really pasty white (my kids, who’ve been given an infusion of Asian blood and are a little darker than me used to call me a “Beacon in da night!) But for some reason it’s taboo to use skin color if we’re referring to a race other than ourselves. It’s taboo to use apparent ethnicity too, and that makes no sense to me. You’re just describing one apparent feature, or, in the case of ethnicity, a package of features rather than describing them one at a time.

@Dutchess_III Yes it can, although this depends on what kind of people you’re around lol. If a person gets offended in a situation where you had to use skin color to describe someone, I’d suggest avoiding contact with this person.

It’s all very nice to not want kids to be told things.

But they are. Because you can’t wave a wand and make people act rationally (believe me, I’ve tried).

Kids are going to become adults who teach their kids the same things they were taught, unless they get information from another source that supersedes their parents’ teachings.

@Seek_Kolinahr I am talking about elementary age. When are the children taught about the Holocaust? Elementary school? I doubt it.

I don’t think even racist white adults are telling their kids about slavery and Jim Crow in great detail. They are just racist today. Black parents certainly can curb what they tell their children if there is some sort of research to show that avoiding that sort of information will be better for their children. I don’t know of any research though, I am just going on what feels right to me and my own minority experience. Being Jewish is not the same as being black in America, but I do always know my people have a legacy of being hated and I know how it impacts me.

I don’t think even racist white adults are telling their kids about slavery and Jim Crow in great detail. They are just racist today. Black parents certainly can curb what they tell their children if there is some sort of research to show that avoiding that sort of information will be better for their children

We’re talking about racist parents here. The ones that name their kids Adolph and have Rebel flags tattooed on their necks, or tell their kids not to play with the only white kid in the neighborhood (we moved because the isolation was so bad, and my son was only three at the time!)

The people perpetuating racism and stereotypes are not looking for studies to determine what to teach their children.

And public schools aren’t much better. Thanksgiving pow-wows, with construction-paper headdresses? Are we in the 50s? are we going to get together for Howdy-Doody time next week?

Native Americans, for example, have always been the silent bearer of racism in this country. White redneck girls wear dream catcher earrings, I can’t count how many times my Blackfoot friends have been asked in public whether they know a rain dance.

And why? Maybe because they grew up playing “cowboys and indians” and no one told them that isn’t acceptable, because Native Americans have feelings, too, and maybe they’re tired of being painted as the bad savage pitted against the valiant American cowboy hero, and at seven years old they might not know how to stand up to that.

Kids in Elementary school should be taught history. Absolutely. But it should be taught accurately, not the Disney version.

If you’re going to bring up Native Americans and don’t want to talk about how the ones that didn’t die from smallpox had their scalps ripped off for a dollar a piece, invite a local Native to come to the school and tell stories. At the very least, read from a book of Native American myths and legends, tell their tall tales. Bonus points if you tell the stories of the Native cultures that actually lived in your area, because Iroquois stories are very different from Seminole stories.

And same goes for gypsies, and European cultures, and Asian cultures, and African cultures.

People use the term “melting pot” a lot, but I prefer to think of us as a stew. We can enjoy the meat, carrots, celery, onions, and potatoes for what they are, and how they complement each other.

Being completely silent on the matter helps no one.

The beliefs and attitudes we pass on to out kids are not always done consciously, or even deliberately. The kid may just happen to be present when mom or dad are talking about a person of another race and using disparaging terms regarding their race to describe them and their actions. It’s just part of their lives and who they are.

Slightly off kilter here, when my daughter was a baby she was a really fussy Momma’s girl. She didn’t like being held by stranger. She didn’t like strangers, period. When she was about 6 months old we were at a thrift store and this black guy walked up, wanting to see the baby. He got really close and peered right into her face. She started crying. The guy said, “She don’t like black people do she.” I was so startled I couldn’t think of what to say to that ridiculous comment! She would have started crying no matter who got up in her face like that!

@Seek_Kolinahr They provided us with a ton of books about Native American legends and stories when I was in school. Those were some of my favorite books, too.

@Seek_Kolinahr I wasn’t thinking the extremes of the neo nazi racists, I was thinking in terms of more subtle racism. The neo nazis I can’t really worry about their kids in terms of public education curriculum. Their parents are so extreme I can’t focus on changing the minds of those parents either. The research and statistics I mentioned was regarding parents of minority children, not the racists.

I am not looking for Disney history. I want accurate age appropriate history taught. All history can’t be taught in a day, we choose when to teach what. If we teach slavery or the holocaust in 7th grade instead of 3rd, what is the real harm? I can only see the upside. By 7th grade I already know I have friends who are not Jewish who don’t care I am Jewish. I am less likely to have nightmares that people will come in the night and take my family to hurt them because we are Jewish. I have enough life experience to put history in it’s place and judge real threats from paranoia.

As white children we tend to grow up feeling America is a wonderful country with opportunity (although, this is more muddled lately) while black children too often are told they will have to work much harder for the same break. I think they can just be told they have to work hard to do well.

What history are you going to teach to a third grader, that never mentions race, nationality, or religion?

I’m a little lost. I didn’t see where she suggested never mentioning race, nationally or origin? I thought the debate was about teaching “real” history, as in all the massacres and horrible things that everyone did to everyone else.

The original question is about talking about race. Then she mentioned not wanting kids to learn about racism. And then I mentioned how silly that idea was, since we can’t keep parents from talking to their kids about stuff, and if you’re counting on public school to teach kids differently, they need an overhaul of their ideas of history lessons.

To which she said she would like accurate history taught to all kids, but to keep the mentioning of racism (like the holocaust) kept in older grades. Which doesn’t really make sense, as my original point was regarding the perpetuation of racist stereotypes of Native Americans in kindergarten classes.

So I’m wondering how exactly she’s going to find a way to teach a history lesson that doesn’t involve cultural relations in any form.

Because it’s not possible.

Of course it’s not possible,nor desirable.

However, I do agree with keeping the more ghastly elements, such as the holocaust, age appropriate. You wouldn’t want to get in to too much detail with 1st graders.

Well, of course.

That’s not at all what I was saying.

What I am saying is that to never mention race at all ever isn’t possible. You can’t study American history without the Civil War, the Alamo, or the Trail of Tears. You can’t study World War II without the holocaust or the Japanese-American “relocation” camps. You can’t study the Middle Ages without the Crusades or the Inquisition. And you can’t study current events without the conflict in the Middle East or class warfare.

I mean, you could, but then what are you left with? “Some guy painted a picture once, about some flowers. The end.”

It is an interesting question though.

I guess I’m with @Seek on this. Trust me, racists will not spare the children and raise them to hate from birth, Jews, blacks, orientals, everyone. And those kids will persecute others because they see them as inferior races deserving of scorn. If you’ve never seen a 3 yr old sporting a crew cut, boots and saluting Hitler, consider yourself lucky, it’s heartbreaking. They are warped on purpose.

To truly protect your child, I feel it’s very important to teach them to love everyone, no matter what. Love is the only counter to unbridled hate.

Well, I said in my original post that I have been thinking maybe we should leave race out of things, but I am actually ne of the people usually not afraid to talk about race, and I do think studying groups is very interesting. Race, religion, socioeconomic etc. but, I get blasted often for here on fluther for mentioni race. You know, we get the, “the only race is the human race” and it is the majority in my opinion on futher, not minority who is easily offended by race discussions.

The bit about children is a little separate in that even if we all agree it is ok to discuss race and that we should, I still think we can wait to tell very young children about slavery and the holocaust and similar horrors until an older age. What good does it do to tell them about those things so young? Why is it good? Why is it necessary? I still haven’t heard any explanation for why it is beneficial. I don’t mean we can’t say Bryan is African America and Toni is Korean and Gina is Italian. I like the diversity; that is America to me. But, some people seem Very sensitized to any mention of race or ethnicity.

@KNOWITALL I don’t understand why anyone thinks we think racists will spare the children. Of course they will raise their kids to be racist. Or, try their best to.

I think schools should teach children to be kind to everyone and treat other as they want to be treated. Do you think teaching about slavery and Jim Crow laws in elementary school helps the little kid who is raised by neo Nazi parents be more understanding and less racist? I doubt it. I think if a teacher tells them about how blacks were slaves and 50 years ago David, the black boy in the class, would not have been allowed in their school, it would be just more ammunition for that racist kid to taunt David. Do you think the little boy has anything positive come out of hearing that his grandparents were slaves, bought and sold and beaten, and 50 years ago he would not have been allowed in the school he sits in today? I cannot see any good in telling that to 7 year olds.

Sort of relevant

Relevant and interesting.

This is hilarious. This is how I wish we could all approach race. Having fun with our own stereotypes.