Is there REALLY a war on Christmas? Or do some zealots just not want to share an ancient historically pre-Christian variety of winter festival?

There is no war on Christmas.

LOL But it sure makes for some negative manipulative airtime from the Fox News Crowd to sour a beautiful all inclusive season of holiday cheer. It’s real because they make weak people angry at a time they should be joyous.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-12-2013/war-on-christmas---s--t-s-getting-weird-edition---black-santa

No, there is not but some people are not happy unless they think someone is out to get them and others use fear to either keep or bring people into their fold.

It’s the old “If’n you ain’t for us yore agin’ us! mentality so aptly expressed by former prez Bush.

@Rarebear Santa is in our hearts and minds. He can be any color any child wants him to be.
He’s magic!

* Don’t get me wrong – I’m no fan of Christmas (mostly because it’s a capitalist holiday that breeds consumerist feelings in even the most sane). But Fox’s war on Christmas crap goes along their need to play the victim. According to them, there is also a war on white men.

@tom_g Happy Holidays Tom!

The gift exchanges started with the ancients.

I gave my daughter in law a special gift – I didn’t brave Black Friday for sales. I gave her my mother’s cameo; given to my mother by my father as a Christmas gift during their first Christmas together. My mother had dropped out of school to support her own widowed mother.

My father brought them a 12 ft Christmas tree and boxes of European glass blown ornaments his family had brought with them in their long journey ending in Ellis Island. He decorated it 1949 style and it shimmered with hot lights.

It’s not all consumerism. The season brings people together.

As a non-Christian, I still enjoy the season. I give and receive presents, I decorate the house and tree, we have that big Christmas dinner. Why, because I enjoy it, it makes me, and others, feel good, because it is a time for family no matter what the “official” reasons given.

PS: I cannot remember the last time I punched someone out for wishing me a “Merry Christmas” instead of a “Happy Holiday”. I usually respond in kind. And, as far as I know, no-one else has ever taken offense when I have uttered either phrase first. And, I believe the vast majority of folks are the same way.

These Christmas Nazis need to back off, let everyone enjoy themselves in the manner they see fit and try to have a good time themselves instead of Scrooging others.

@MadMadMax: “It’s not all consumerism. The season brings people together.”

There are exceptions. Very rare exceptions. But there are probably 2 people I have ever met who didn’t get caught up in the pressure and expectations this time of year and go buy stuff. If it was a time for slowing down, baking with and for friends and family, and was not about accumulating crap, I’d have little problem with it.

A clerk in Costco told me “Merry Christmas” yesterday. I was not offended. I also would not be offended if someone said “Happy Chanukah” or “Happy Kwanzaa” or “Happy Holidays” or “Happy New Year.”

There is no war on Christmas. The only people saying there is a war is some Christians who generally think there is a war on Christianity. To be clear, I do not think most Christians feel this way, but I think a significant enough number of them do that we a well aware of it. If your people believe there is a war against them they are likely to be more loyal and fight for their cause, it’s good strategy. I have been in churches where the preachers basically say it is unpopular to be Christian and we need to fight against that. The last time I witnessed it was at a wedding while the minister was cnducting the ceremony! It really bothered me.

So, we will continue to hear about people who think it is awful if someone says Happy Holidays or if we write Xmas instead of Christmas. When their child’s school starts calling Wonter break instead of Christmas vacation they will blame the atheists for wanting to secularlize the country, blah, blah, blah.

If we are going to look at anything that might be considered war is all the commercialism of Christmas in my opinion. The focus on shopping. But, the Christians seem to be the ones who do shopping to the hilt for holidays, so who am I to make a judgement?

@JLeslie: Winter break is not the same as Christmas vacation. Winter break is in February.

@jca It depends where you live. Some places still don’t have a February Break, although I think it is a brilliant idea for northern states since February is one of the colder more snowy months. What do your schools call the break over Christmas?

I think some places call the Christmas break Wnter Recess.

There is no bathroom war on christmas!

Everyone loves Christmas – time off work, gifts for everyone, big feast, and a time to get the whole fandamily together. It doesn’t matter what religion you are or if you believe in anything at all, or who started it or why. I don’t feel any pressure about Christmas. I call it whatever I want (which happens to be Christmas) but I don’t care what others want to call it. Our family only gets small token gifts, no big ticket items, because the big thing is Christmas day with the family, playing games and maybe watching a movie, and lots and lots of food, watching the children play with their toys. If others want to stampede each other at the stores to spend money they don’t have on junk that they don’t need, that is their problem.

I reckon the real war was the one on the Winter Solstice Holiday that was celebrated all around the world by all sorts of religions and cultures before Christians subsumed it as the phony birthday of Jesus and started killing anyone who refused to celebrate it the way they, the Christians, demanded that it be celebrated. I’m all for it being celebrated as the winter solstice holiday it originally was. But if Bill Oreilly’s sanity (what he has of same) depends on him pretending that shepherds were tending their flocks in the fields in the dead of winter, that’s fine with me. I don’t feel any need to go to war against harmless nonsense. There’s just too much harmful nonsense out there to fight.

I have a few friends on Facebook who post about putting Christ back in Christmas, but the people who do the most complaining about the imaginary war on Christmas are the people who complain about the very few who want Christ back in Christmas. I hear more about the war on Christmas here at Fluther more than I do anywhere else. Very few people in my life talk about this, and most of the people in my life are religious.

@JLeslie & @jca The two weeks my daughter gets off from school over the holiday is called Christmas vacation. I’ve never heard of a winter break in February.

Political correctness in some circles have us saying Happy Holidays and writing Merry Xmas.

Here (NY) there’s Christmas vacation, then in February it’s mid-winter recess for one week off, and in April it’s Spring break.

@JimTurner: “Political correctness in some circles have us saying Happy Holidays and writing Merry Xmas.”

Really?

@TomYes I’m around many different people.

Until we can have a statue of satan and gods of other religions next to christian monuments on public land without causing massive outrage from the christians, there is a war of christians against non christians.

@JimTurner – What does it have to do with “political correctness”?

@jca In public schools they call it Christmas Vacation? The school does? Officially? That surprises me.

I just googled my old elementary school in Westchester county, NY and they call it winter recess.

My elementary school in MD calls it winter break.

@JimTurner How can writing Xmas be chalked up to political correctness? It’s just shorthand that has been used for many many years. I leanred it when I was a little kid, so that is at least over 40 years it has commonly been used. The history of using the X goes way way back before that though. In the day of textspeak it even makes more sense to accept the shortened words.

Keep Saturn in Saturnalia.

@JLeslie In the Bay Area, most people call the time off in December “Winter Break”, the time off in February “Ski Week” and the time off in April “Spring Break”, although “coincidentally” enough it always coincided with Easter when I was in high school, even when Easter was in March.

But it’s obvious that the time off in December is for Christmas. Call a spade a spade, in my opinion. Hanukkah was earlier this year and people did not get time off for it. It’s Christmas that you always get time off for. I don’t mind getting time off for Christmas, but don’t pretend it’s for anything other than Christmas.

The “X” in “Xmas” actually originated as a Christian (Greek, actually) shorthand. The Greek letter ”Χ” (Chi) translated into a “ch” in English. during my seminary studies it was not uncommon for us to see notes from lectures substituting ”Χτός” or ”Χ-τός” as shorthand for ”Χριστός (Christos) for “Christ”.

My daughter’s school calls the break that starts on December 19 the Winter Break. Of course, being a charter school, concentrating on language immersion and world cultures, I think it’s totally appropriate.

It seems totally appropriate to celebrate the return of the Sun, or the Light, however you want to “metaphorize” it.

I love calling it “ski week.” I never heard that before.

Spring break is usually connected to easter in all the places I have lived. Either it is during the week before Easter or after. Some school districts with lotd of Jews try to incorporate Passover and Easter if they can in Spring break.

My only issue with Christmas is when taxpayer money is used to glorify the Christian aspect of the Holiday without regard to the fact that many taxpayers are not Christian.

@YARNLADY Like what? Do you mean citywide Christmas decorations? That sort of thing? Or, something else?

@JLeslie Specifically a city owned manger scene. The city wide decorations in our town are non-secular and beautiful.

Denver, Colorado used to have a specifically Christian scene, but since some complaints many years ago, they changed to an absolutely gorgeous light show.

@YARNLADY I see. My feeling is already existing Christmas decorations don’t need to be thrown out, but as a city buys new items I prefer the more secular stuff also for the holiday season.

Are you considering candy canes and Christmas colored lights secular? Is your only objection to scenes specifically depicting the birth of Christ? Also, what if the city has a Christmas parade? Is it ok as long as no money is spent on it?

@JLeslie: I’ll check the school calendar and let you know for sure what it’s called. Like @DominicX said, there’s no pretending, however, that it’s for anything other than Christmas.

I just checked the school calendar and it’s called “Holiday Recess.”

@jca I agree it is in the end for Christmas. I personally wouldn’t care if it was called Christmas break. Christmas is a federal holiday. I think there is an argument for not making it a federal holiday since it is really a religious holiday, a few years back someone raised a stink about it, but I personally don’t mind it being a federal holiday nor do I mind having school off for it. The country is primarily Christian, so schools are closed on Christmas. However, I do think it is better to stick to calling it a holiday or winter break to avoid someone who will make an issue of it. As a Jewish person I don’t mind at all being off for Christmas as long as I get off for Yom Kippur. You can have it off too if the school decides they should just close for the holiday.

@JLeslie According to Scopes, candy canes are not symbols of Christ. The stories linking them came after the candy became so popular. The colored lights and decorated trees definitely predate Christians.

I just got back and I’m happy to see my question drew some great responses.

As a quick note:

Early use of “Xmas” includes Bernard Ward’s History of St. Edmund’s college, Old Hall (originally published circa 1755)...

An earlier version, “X’temmas”, dates to 1551. Around 1100 the term was written as “Xp̄es mæsse” in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle…

“Xmas” is found in a letter from George Woodward in 1753..
Lord Byron used the term in 1811, as did Samuel Coleridge (1801 and Lewis Carroll (1864).

In the United States, the fifth edition of the Royal Standard English Dictionary, published in Boston in 1800, included in its list of “Explanations of Common Abbreviations, or Contraction of Words” the entry: “Xmas. Christmas.. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. used the term in a letter dated 1923..

Since at least the late 19th century, “Xmas” has been in use in various other English-language nations.

Quotations with the word can be found in texts first written in Canada, and the word has been used in Australia,. and in the Caribbean.
.
Bill O’Reilly’s war has been going on for a long long time.

@ragingloli Just for you:

Oklahoma Legislator Who Supports Ten Commandments Monument Slams Satanic Temple’s Proposal for Being Too ‘Religious’
December 10, 2013
By Hemant Mehta

Last week, I posted an interview with Satanic Temple spokesperson Lucien Greaves about his group’s desire to place a monument of their own near the Ten Commandments monument outside the Oklahoma Capitol building.

They were executing a tactic atheists have been using for a while now: When a Christian display is allowed on government property, you might as well take advantage of the floodgates being open and demand a display of your own. Along the way, if legislators decide to ban religious and non-religious displays altogether, that’s just too damn bad… and if they ban your display, it’s an easy victory in court.

Oklahoma legislators are aware that the Satanists want to erect their own monument and they have no clue how to respond, so they’re just putting their collective foot in their mouth and crying “Christian privilege!” left and right:

“This is a faith-based nation and a faith-based state,” said Rep. Earl Sears, R-Bartlesville. “I think it is very offensive they would contemplate or even have this kind of conversation.”

Yes, how dare non-Christian groups contemplate using their First Amendment rights?! It’s totally a faith-based nation… even though nearly 20% of Americans use no religious label and even though our Constitution says it wouldn’t matter if 100% of them did.

“It is not something the people of Oklahoma would support, and the people of Oklahoma support the Ten Commandments monument,” said Rep. Eric Proctor, D-Tulsa.

Guess what? Doesn’t matter.

“It is not going to get approved here without a court battle,” said Rep. Doug Cox, R-Grove. “I can assure you.”

… a statement no politician has ever said to a Christian group wanting to put a Ten Commandments monument.

“I am somewhat disappointed we are facing this sort of thing,” said Rep. Jeannie McDaniel, D-Tulsa. “We sort of knew this might happen. I know nothing of about this group. I have never heard of them. I think we opened the door and have to have a process to have it vetted.”

That may be the worst one of them all. We sort of figured other groups might want to take advantage of this opportunity, but I just can’t believe any of them actually did!

Wait. I lied. This is the worst one of them all:

Rep. Mike Reynolds, R-Oklahoma City, said the New York group is trying to place a monument on the Capitol grounds for religious purposes and will be unsuccessful. The Ten Commandments monument, on the other hand, was put up for historical purposes, Reynolds said.

Wow. The Satanic Temple’s proposed monument should be rejected because it’s too “religious,” but the Ten Commandments monument should be given a pass because it’s “historical”?!

Someone will have to explain to me the historical significance of Commandments that say we should obey God, not obey idols, not take God’s name in vain, and keep the Sabbath holy… not to mention that most of the other Commandments aren’t even codified in our laws — no one goes to jail for coveting, committing adultery, or disrespecting their parents.

If the Satanic Temple’s efforts fail, then I’ll be first in line to donate to their legal battle. Anything to get more hypocritical soundbites from legislators who don’t understand that there are people out there who don’t believe in the same imaginary God they do.

The principle is simple: Oklahoma legislators can allow all groups’ monuments on government property or they can stop the charade right now and move the Ten Commandments monument to a local church.

Where are the politicians who accept that that’s how our country works? It doesn’t matter if Christians make up the majority faith; the government has to remain neutral on these sorts of issues.

I asked Lucien Greaves if he had a response for the politicians and I’ll update this post when I hear from him.
http://www.patheos.com

Yeah sure, there’s a war on Christianity in America. LOL

@MadMadMax
That is the story I was referring to.

@JLeslie Here is my daughter’s school calendar. She attends public school. Christmas vacation is listed on the calendar.

As a non-viewer of FoxNews, I am only ever aware of this “War on Christmas” when someone refers to their broadcasts. I suspect that this fact is meaningful.

@jonsblond My kids are long grown up. They attended public schools and their calendars always referred to Christmas Vacation even though Vermont was always rather respectful and not overly religious in general. IF anyone had thought to complain, I bet they would have changed it to Winter vacation or some other more neutral wording.

I don’t know what it’s like in Vermont today or if it’s gone all Bible Belty but when I lived there, one’s religon was their own business and there wasn’t much in the way of proselytizing; however, there was antisemitism in the small villages – that I can attest first hand.

@jonsblond Bible belt right? Then one day when someone makes a stink about it a bunch of the Christians will feel renforced in thinking there is a war on Christianity. At least that is what I began to understand about the bible belt. They didn’t change these things long ago on their own, and when they get forced to do it, or feel forced and it all gets mushed together with feeling it is an attack on God, Christianity, the federal government taking over and atheists wanting to rule the world.

I understand why the south and other parts of the bible belt feel this way. They feel there is malicious intent, when really we who want to secularize places like schools just want everyone to feel acceptance and promote religious diversity. Although, like I said, I personally don’t have a real gripe with calling it Christmas break. But, it is part of a bigger conversation of separation of church and state and public schools.

@MadMadMax Stowe uses December Recess

@JLeslie That doesn’t surprise me at all. My kids finished grad school over decade ago so I’m remembering a different time.

Essex VT schools use the term Winter Break today. I just looked it up.

I still believe Christmas is for kids and the adults should remember that and quit trying to ruin it with idiotic assertions. They are the very ones bringing out the negative side of things by ratcheting up the noise every year. I do my best to ignore it.

@MadMadMax When I was very little I think we still used Christmas Break, but it changed while I was in school. I am 45. I kind of remember adults talking about how they changed it, I just don’t remember if it was when I lived in NY or MD. I was young in both places, I moved inbetween 4th and 5th grade. It surprises me that some schools still call it Christmas break though.

I just looked up my country when we lived in TN and it is called Holiday Break. I wonder if the bible belt prefers the term holiday to winter? To at least acknowledge in some way there is a holiday in there.

@dougiedawg I don’t think it’s only for kids. I love Christmas and I’m as secular as they come. The whole concept of using the term HAPPY HOLIDAYS or SEASON’S GREETINGS is a nothing more than a courtesy, an acceptance that not only one single holiday is being celebrated.

Merry Christmas, Happy Yule, Happy Hannukah (even though it seemed more like Thanksgiving this year), Kool Kwaanza to you, and happy Festivus for the Restivus rest of us!

Happy Festivus!

Bah Humbug!

@tom_g & @JLeslie If I know that someone is not a Christian which a lot of my friends aren’t I will say have a Happy Holiday out of respect to their own religion.

As a child my parents told me always to write out Christmas and never use Xmas because they claimed it was taking Christ out of Christmas. I’m not saying it is right or wrong just saying it is what I was taught.

@JimTurner I actually think taking Christ out of Christmas is a shame, but I say it meaning all the focus on spending money and the commercialism; Christians buy into all that on their own. Writing Xmas is just a shorthand when writing it is nothing else. It is a point the evangelicals have latched onto. What Christian denomination is your mom? Also, how old are you? When I was a kid I never heard anyone gripe about Xmas, but I also did not live in the bible belt. Maybe even 40 years ago the bible belt was talking about it as some sort of assault on Christ.

If you know friends are not Christian, I assume you know their religion, why not use the salutation for their religion specifically like Happy Hanukah? Not that it matters much to me, but it is nice when someone says Happy Chanukah if they know I am Jewish. Of course this year Chanukah is so early it’s tricky.

@JLeslie Yes saying Happy Hanukah is a good idea.

Happy Chanukah JLeslie!!

Ok, thanks :). LOL. Chanukah is over already though. This year it’s all out of whack with Chanukah so early. Still, it’s nice. Happy Holidays is nice too. Most people understand it is all said to convey happiness and well wishes. That’s why I say it is mostly those right winger over the top religious Christians who constantly feel under attack who make a big deal out of Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas, not the people who aren’t Christian.

What the Fox crowd is ticked about is that stores and businesses choose to say Happy Holidays or Season’s Greatings because they cannot know who they are dealing with. They want a forced Merry Christmas said to every atheist Buddhist, Jew, Hindu etc that walks in any store during this multi holiday season. If these stores don’t limit their greeting to Merry Christmas they have set up Astroturf roots organizations to ban those stores. Told Christians not to show there and reported them on TV

Boycotting Companies who ban “Christmas”? – Founders Ministries…
blog.founders.org/2005/.../boycotting-companies-who-ban-christmas.ht…‎
Nov 24, 2005 – Companies Ban ‘Christmas,’ Not Worried About Backlash… those who identify themselves as Christians don’t care if they eliminate “Christmas.” ..... do when every store in the country but LifeWay is saying “Happy Holidays”?

Before You Go Christmas Shopping, Please Check List of Stores…
soldierforliberty.wordpress.com/.../before-you-go-christmas-shopping-pl…‎
Nov 26, 2009 – Don’t stop, however, with just not shopping at their store. ... some fun, make sure you cheerfully tell all checkers and cashiers Merry Christmas this year. ... These companies have banned “Christmas” from their retail ads, in-store… In their official statement, Target said: “Over the course of the next few week

“Say Merry Christmas or I don’t shop at your store” rant and a new…
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2812244/posts‎
Nov 25, 2011 – “Say Merry Christmas or I don’t shop at your store” rant and a new this year… for Christmas and I ask help from other FReepers on what stores, web….. (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.).

@MadMadMax A lot of people just don’t get it, it’s ignorance. We have had Q’s where people argue it should only be Merry Christmas in stores and then I point out to that person who of course lives in a 98% Christian town in the bible belt that in places like NYC and Boca Raton, FL that more than 25% of the people are not Christian and the jelly is in a state of shock practically. NYC I bet 30% easily are not Christian. So saying Merry Christmas to everyone, means you said the “wrong” think about a third of the time. State of shock is an overstatement, but they usually then start to see why it is ridiculous in some parts of our country.

I always say to people who are totally offended by Happy Holidays that we should walk around and say Happy Hanukah to everyone.

@JLeslie Absolutely. But those screaming their freedoms are being trodded on, their God denied are people without the ability to respect people other religions or philosophies. And, of course, they now have main stream media supporting their foolishness. Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, Limbaugh, and the gaggle of faux news idiots on Fox and Friends who bring it up every day during the season.

Fox News Brings On Santa Claus To Discuss The ‘War On Christmas’
thinkprogress.org/.../fox-news-brings-on-santa-claus-to-discuss-t…‎
by Igor Volsky – in 707 Google+ circles
Dec 20, 2012 – Fox and Friends took its coverage of the so-called “War on Christmas” to the front lines on Thursday morning by inviting Santa Claus to weigh in…

It is not Christian to respect the rights and beliefs of anyone BUT fellow Christians – of course not all people who are part of Christian faiths are like this but it’s growing.

And by claiming they are victims, they are better positioned to persecute all others who’s traditions share their holiday season.

Fox & Friends Attack School Over War On Christmas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGMudlIJ6aY

I guess my point was a lot of the Christians who are mouthing off on facebook and even fluther at times actually do not understand how many nonChristians there are, because they live in their own world. Especially they don’t realize how huge the perecntages can be in a specific community. Dearborn, MI is probably easily 20% Muslim. I don’t know the actual stat, I know it is around 40% Arab inbthat city, but some of the Arabs are for sure Christian. I know last time I ate in a middle eastern restaurant there the owners were Lebonese and I assume they were Catholic. Food was delicious by the way.

Some of the Christians know and don’t care, and some of them really don’t realize.

@JLeslie ” lot of the Christians who are mouthing off on facebook and even fluther at times actually do not understand how many nonChristians there are,”

I think they know and they are frightened of change. They are also a bit underhanded about all this because their real objective is to have the US identified as a Christian Country..

I agree they are frightened. Fear is a useful tool.

An old Q on the topic of Merry Christmas. There are many Q’s. This one was interesting to read agin, I think you will like it. We have a lot of Jews on fluther so it is pretty easy to get opinions of people who aren’t Christian and of Christians on the topic.

Deck the Halls with Bow tied Ganders, fa la la la la, la la la laaaaa.
Pffft..I am SO SICK of psycho PC-ness. Bah Humbug!

@JimTurner “Political correctness in some circles have us saying Happy Holidays and writing Merry Xmas.”

No hon, there are cluster of holidays celebrated all around the ancient Solstice so saying Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings is not something politically correct, its all inclusive and thoughtful.

It’s not just Christmas. But on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, I say Merry Christmas to anyone who is Christian. I still say Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings and even Good Solstice to some people – in general. Not EVERYBODY is celebrate CHRISTMAS.

I say “be thoughtful.” Be nice. Be accepting and inclusive.

Let’s remember whose teachings Christians theoretically follow, and follow one of the stated “Greatest Commandments”…“Love your neighbor as yourself”...
Mark 12:31 NIV

@MadMadMax Sounds good. I agree.

“Let’s remember whose teachings Christians theoretically follow, and follow one of the stated “Greatest Commandments”…“Love your neighbor as yourself”...
Mark 12:31 NIV”

Thats a variation on the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do onto you.

As a concept of “the ethic of reciprocity,” it has its roots in a wide range of world cultures, and is a standard way that different cultures use to resolve conflicts. It predates Christianity by about 2,000 years. :) It’s universal; secular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Ancient_Babylon

@MadMadMax Indeed, it is. When Jesus supposedly stated that, he was actually quoting an older scripture, known to Christians as Leviticus 9:18, again NIV.

It’s not really scripture. It’s common sense and much much older than Christianity or Judaism.

It’s a maxim not a religious belief.

Now I’m not Christian at all. I have no religious affiliation and I don’t believe in magic or gods or goddesses or demigods or ghosts, or elves or aliens hiding and grabbing us for never-ending forced colonoscopies.

However you can wish me a Happy Holiday or a Merry Christmas because for me Christmas is a fun secular holiday that grabbed the Solstice holidays of the world and I love holidays.

The one thing I miss here is the ability to post an image. Darn.