What is your opinion on Jahi, the little girl in California who is legally dead while her body breathes?
This 13 yr old little girl went in for a simple procedure to relieve her sleep apnea and ended with complications causing her to be brain-dead.
The family is saying that the hospital must have messed up somehow and the little girl will come out of it eventually, so they are moving her to another facility rather than taking her off the breathing machine.
The hospital is saying that they did nothing wrong, but wanted to declare her dead 3 days after surgery. After that it turned into a legal battle with a court order being necessary to move the child rather than remove her from the machines (from what I understand.)
What do you think about this from a medical and legal standpoint, or even a parental view?
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/06/22197615-brain-dead-girl-jahi-mcmath-released-to-coroner-mother-hospital?lite=
Observing members:
0
Composing members:
0
65 Answers
Tragic. That little girl can live on and help so many other children if the parents agree to let her go and donate her organs.
Or is this a set up for a multimillion dollar lawsuit by Shyster and Shyster (who will take the case for free – with a 35% cut of the settlement.)
I don’t know enough about the particulars of this situation to venture an opinion, but over this past summer I was on a jury trying a medical liability case. The defendant was a well-reputed teaching hospital, and the plaintiff was an elderly woman who went in for a minimally-invasive out-patient spinal procedure by a famous neurologist, and ended up permanently paralyzed. Very tragic.
We want desperately to think that such a thing couldn’t happen without gross professional error, and so we naturally try to see where the system or the professionals went wrong along the way. The plaintiffs in the case tried to play on this urge. But by the time both sides had presented their cases, it was clear to all of the jurors that no professional faults had led to this tragedy. Sometimes, things really do just go randomly and horribly wrong, even when everything is done right.
This experience (2 weeks of listening to extremely detailed medical evidence) has made me very wary of ever feeling like I can understand the truth of a complex medical situation based on a news report.
It’s a sad story; the family will not accept the truth though, that their daughter has died and is only being kept from putrefaction by artificial means. Her blood pressure is steadily declining; as that further deteriorates, her functions will begin to ebb.
The Alameda County Coroner signed her death certificate on December 12.
And no one is saying how this is all being paid for.
What a tragic loss. If the child is truly brain dead, then let her be at peace. It mky take the family a while to get past the shock and accept it. Give them some time. I’d have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it hopeless before I pulled the plug on a loved one.
@LuckyGuy Good point. Organ donation is a fitting tribute. What a great way to keep the memory of your loved one alive, give someone else a chance to live.
The kid is dead. There is no room for opinion here. Dead.
Very sad. But once the thought processes are gone, so is the human that was. Let her rest.
I can’t even begin to comprehend the medical situation that led to this tragedy. Based on what I have seen believe the hospital is trying to do right by this family.
As a mom my heart is breaking for this mother. I just feel for her sitting there not being able to grasp, mush less accept that her daughter is not coming back. Ever. I just hope she comes to terms with it and let go so that they can donate her organs. It is just so sad.
How do you feel about Jahi being released into her mother’s custody? Do you feel that’s humane for the child? We wouldn’t even consider this for an animal.
It’s sad that this family lost their child, and it’s sad that they can’t accept that she has died. Given that keeping her on the breathing machine carries no consequences for the child, I guess the best outcome would be to keep her on it until the family has finally managed to accept that she’s not coming back.
But are we in a situation where resources are being spent to keep her alive that could be going to children who have a chance to live? If so, then I think the parents should be coerced into letting her go.
@KNOWITALL “How do you feel about Jahi being released into her mother’s custody? Do you feel that’s humane for the child?”
If the girl is brain dead, then nothing they can do to her body will have an effect on her as a person. She is gone.
@zenvelo I was wondering about the financial aspect too. It is my understanding that once a patient/family starts acting “against medical advice” insurance refuses to cover the bills. So that would mean the family is footing the bill, unless they found a place willing to keep her around for free which is doubtful. Plus, if she is legally dead based on there being a death certificate how could the insurance company even pay for medical services?
@KNOWITALL I don’t know what to think about the mom taking her body. It is probably not humane, but they are the parents and seemingly they can legally do what they want with her.
@glacial True, the thought bothers me though.
@LilCosmo I’m just not sure an untrained mother should be put in that position for this particular case, you know what I mean?
I’m pretty sure there are laws against taking dead bodies home.
@KNOWITALL I totally understand. Plus in reality she is dealing with a corpse hooked up to machines. That feels so horribly morbid and painful it is just incomprehensible, I really hope the mom comes to terms with the reality of the situation, at least for the dignity of this little girl’s body.
@Seek_Kolinahr according to the news reports they are taking her to an undisclosed location. I just assumed it was another facility. Man hope it isn’t their house, but this thing seems so far through the looking glass who even knows.
@LilCosmo My friend says that no hospitals would take her at one point, so I’m not sure. The mother was supposedly trying to find one that would.
@KNOWITALL “True, the thought bothers me though.”
I know what you mean. But my feeling is that the person we should care about most in this situation is the child, and there’s nothing more we can do for her. The next highest priority for compassion is the parents. As long as nothing they want to do is harmful, I don’t see why they should be stopped from going through the stages of grief on their own timetable. Trying to hurry them along is not going to make matters better. It will just give them a target for their anger at losing a child.
@glacial I can’t help feeling that the parents are using her. It may sound cynical but I watched an interview or two and I’m not buying that it’s 100% parental grief. If I’m wrong, I agree with you completely.
@KNOWITALL I haven’t seen a single interview with the parents, just one with a family spokesperson. I’m curious, when you say they are “using her” what do you think their end game is? What are they using her to try to accomplish? I wonder if a guardian ad litem can be brought in to advocate for Jahi – someone who has been declared legally dead.
The whole thing is just so complicated and sad. What’s interesting is that it reminded me of the case of Karen Ann Quinlan, whose family was fighting for the exact opposite result.
@LilCosmo Maybe someone said they could get money by suing the hospital or doctor. Legal got involved very quickly on this one and the interview I saw was pretty much accusatory towards the hospital because it was ‘routine surgery.’ Let’s just hope the race card doesn’t get played unless it’s real.
@LilCosmo The major difference between Karen Ann Quinlan is that Quinlan wasn’t dead.
On the bright side, it’s probably not exactly inhumane in the sense that someone is being tortured. They’re just keeping a corpse animated.
Probably not something taxpayers should be expected to do, but is it really a good idea to outlaw letting a family do this with its own private resources?
@bolwerk The hillbilly in me says no we shouldn’t outlaw it – lol
@Rarebear I know that, I just think it is interesting that one family is fighting so hard to keep breath going in and out of a body and another fighting so hard to be allowed to stop forcing it.
@Rarebear Do you have any input about potential organ donation? Would you think there would be any viability left for her organs to be donated?
My thoughts:
1. Tragic. So sad.
2. Death is listed as a potential complication on the consent form for a reason. It happens.
3. Why are people so afraid of death?
4. Why would a parent prefer a brain-dead child to be hooked up to equipment in the hopes that they are not really dead, at tremendous expense, to letting their child “die”?
5. I hope that things have been thoroughly explained in a way that the parents could understand them.
6. If so, I wonder about having a psychological or intellectual evaluation of the parents.
7. I don’t have an issue with “the race card” being played here. Absolute atrocities have been committed against African-Americans in the names of medicine and research. There are real trust issues there for many individuals to this day. Don’t discount it. Do I think the surgeon did a shitty job because the girl was black? No, not even in the slightest. But do I think that the parents might be misinterpreting or mistrusting the hospital staff due to a historical and multi-generational mistrust? It’s certainly a possibility. But I still think an evaluation of the parents might be in order.
@Cupcake The interview I watched implied that the girl was in a coma-like state, which she could come out of, according to the mother. I’d be interested in @Rarebear‘s opinion of that statement.
@Cupcake all one needs to do is read The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks to see where the mistrust of doctors might come from.
Also, that is a great question about the viability of the organs. I’ll be curious to hear the answer.
@KNOWITALL This is where stories like that of the man who wrote “Proof of Heaven” do damage (he was the guy behind the “Heaven is Real” Newsweek story a few years back – in which he claimed to have “recovered” from being brain dead). Even though his claim has been roundly debunked (to give one example), the media sensation around the original claim persists because they “feel true” to people who don’t think critically.
@KNOWITALL No. She’s dead. She’s not in a coma. There is no wiggle room here.
Correct me if I’m wrong; coma means there are brainwaves, brain dead is no activity.
What’s the point of putting in a feeding tube? There are no brain waves to tell the body to process the food.
@Seek_Kolinahr Sure but if you’re delusional and believe your kid will wake up it would infuriate you to think they were starving right?
@Cupcake Just so we’re clear, I am very aware of our black history, and no I don’t blame them but make sure it’s a clear case of race bias before throwing that out there, that’s all I’m saying.
If I’m delusional, I hope the medical staff whose time I’m wasting would calmly refuse to take the action I’m demanding, and recommend a competent mental health specialist.
Unplug her. She isn’t coming back.
@KNOWITALL And I’m saying it doesn’t matter to me what their reality is. The fact of the matter is that they don’t trust what they are being told. Either they are biased against trusting the medical establishment, or they are psychologically or intellectually inept. My money is on the former, and my money is on the basis being racial. My money aside, I am very curious about the underlying beliefs here.
@Cupcake Or they are being promised something by some sharkster attorney for his 15 minutes of fame. Ugh, bottom-feeder lawyers get a lot of people’s hopes up.
I do not believe a dead person could breathe and have a heart beat. In my opinion, she is not dead. Brain function is not a criteria I accept as an indicator.
You can put a dead person on so-called life support and they will not breathe or have a heart beat.
@KNOWITALL Interesting. What would the legal benefit be to keeping the kid “alive”, though? Waiting to see if the hospital improperly determined the kiddo to be brain-dead? If they are pending legal action, I would think it would be due to the surgical procedure itself (or immediate postoperative care) and there would be no legal benefit to keeping the kid “alive”.
I can’t imagine relying on an attorney’s medical advice in regards to my brain-dead child, so I’m having a hard time with the line of reasoning there.
@Cupcake Lawyers who are shady sometimes promise a lot of thing’s to prospective litigants in medical malpractice, etc… I thik the mother believes like @YARNLADY.
@YARNLADY She can’t breathe. She is on a mechanical respirator. Her lungs are being automatically inflated and deflated.
There are several misconceptions here.
Brain dead means no cortical activity whatsoever. No brainstem activity, nothing.
A coma is when there is brainstem activity but no higher cortical activity. A coma is not brain death.
Organs can still function in brain death. The heart will still beat, the gut will still work, the kidneys will still work. It’s why we keep bodies alive after brain death—to be harvested for organ donation. And this is the only repeat ONLY reason to keep bodies alive.
Respirators blow air in and out of the lungs. That’s it.
The heart can still beat in brain death. Heart beats originate at the sinus node which is independent of the brain stem.
The diaphragm will not function after brain death because the signals originate from the brain stem, which as I mentioned above is dead.
If you were able to somehow cut Jahi’s brain completely out of her skull and throw it in the trash can, you’d still be able to ventilate a patient and the heart will still beat.
She is dead. She is not almost dead, or not quite dead, or any equivocation. She is none more dead. She is as likely to turn into a chipmunk who sings Broadway tunes as she is to waking up. You can not wake up a brain that is dead. It’s a hunk of dead meat. Whoever is paying for her continued care is not only throwing their money away, but is good money that can be used for other charitable purposes.
I have performed the Auditory Brainstem Evoked Response test (that is often used as the final measure of brainstem function or brain death) on three children who were on life-support. As the head pediatrician said after I told him there was no response to the maximum output, “Dead is dead.” The medical staff and facility have certainly done every possible test for life before they recommend stopping life-support.
It is tragic any time a child dies. It is sad when a family is so distraught from grief that they can not listen to reason. As others have noted, the child’s organs could provide the ‘miracle’ that other families are desperate for. However, if the family wants to spend their own resources waiting for the impossible to happen, we shouldn’t try to stop them, beyond counseling. But public funds should not be used for this purpose if all evidence shows that there is no chance for survival.
I have been following this story with much interest. I believe this family is planning to sue the hospital for millions. I have read about the ruckus and demands they made while she was in the icu. I would like to know, how is it all being paid for? I read that even with the new laws that medical treatment is still very expensive there.
I noticed yesterday that the Pro-Life community is in an uproar over this issue, just fyi.
This morning’s San Francisco Chronicle story reported the funding coming from the Terri Schiavo Foundation and right to life organizations.
They also reported that the organs are deteriorating. And that bodies on ventilators can persist for weeks or months until the heart stops beating, but that every case is different.
I am very sad for this family. I’m sad that they lost their daughter (she is dead, no doubt in my mind). I’m sad that they cannot accept that she is gone and allow her to rest in peace.
I am heartbroken for this little girl. Whatever the cause of her death, I hate seeing a life cut short.
I am sickened by the lawyer and his seeming agenda with all of this. I have no doubt the family wants their little girl back, who wouldn’t. I also have no doubt that this lawyer is probably stringing them along with words of false hope for a bigger paycheck. I read a story just posted today that they are now saying she may be too deteriorated from lack of feeding (blaming the hospital she was at) for her to be saved. Part of me believes this was part of the lawyers intention with the move to a new facility.
As a mother, I can’t imagine facing the loss of one of my children. I know I would not want this for them though. I would let go.
As a nurse, I’ve seen many families deal with loss and they all do it differently. This family needs someone to help them move forward rather than a shitty lawyer that wants to drag it on. I work with patient’s on ventilators. We focus on weaning them off the ventilator. No matter how long her heart and kidneys can hang on, she won’t be able to wean off the ventilator.
@zenvelo If that’s the case, that is very sad, since as a result the Schiavo foundation is going to lose any credibility it has.
“the Pro-Life community is in an uproar over this issue”
Figures.
@KNOWITALL I’m not sure what you mean by leaving medical experts divided. Every medical expert I know of is saying the same thing. She’s dead. I know the article says that, but I think that that’s just a writer saying that. It’s simply not true.
If the right-to-life people are involved, then they, too, are discredited. You can’t have a “right to life” on a dead body.
And now she is being used as a fund-raising tool for those who want a ballot measure to raise the amounts of jury awards for pain and suffering.
@Cupcake It’s not pleasant. I’ve watched similar decomp on patients that weren’t brain dead but we were keeping them alive on machines and meds because the family wants to keep doing everything we can. It’s very sad. Even without brain death there comes a point that’s too much for the human body and it will shut down even with our best efforts.
@Rarebear I disagree. It’s divided the Right To Life supporters as well, as I mentioned. There are fringe groups around every issue remember, looking for publicity, etc…
@KNOWITALL Divided them into what vs. what? I don’t understand.
I can’t understand why pro life groups would be fighting for the rights of a dead body. This just seems to get more horrifying.
@Cupcake Apparently some think, like the family, that her waking up is still possible, so they’re defending her ‘right to life’.
@KNOWITALL the right to life supporters who feel the girl is dead are correct. Those are the sensible ones. Read the deposition that @Seaofclouds posted. I feel horrible for the physician who had to make that statement.
@Rarebear Ugh, defacting her gut, that is terrible. I didn’t see that post so thanks.
I hadn’t read the deposition either. Dr. Flori treated my son at Children’s Hospital Oakland after a car accident. She is a caring doctor, I feel bad she’s put in the position of having to make that statement.
It’s being reported here that she is at home. They are grifters, beginning, middle and end.
HOME?!?!?!
This is an episode of CSI, isn’t it? Modern-day Psycho?
I also read on their Facebook page for her that she got a trach and peg today. Feeding her through her stomach is a horrible idea. I can’t imagine any doctor doing this.
Part of me thinks that maybe her heart finally stopped and they just don’t want to admit it, since it’s all talk and no actual proof of what’s going on. They’ve been much quieter since leaving the hospital and now are asking for privacy, though their account for raising money is still open and over $55,000.
Have a look at the uncle’s twitter and Instagram. Explains everything.
Would it be really bad to point out that with all the prayers this family is receiving, this would be an awesome time for Biblegod to give us that undeniable evidence?
Answer this question 
Composing members:
0
