Is it fair for an employer to force you to risk your life to come into the office during bad weather?

It is not illegal. You could be fired for not coming in if required to.

@marinelife How is that okay though, if I die my employer is not taking care of my funeral or car or my family? Do you think it’s reasonable?

No I don’t think it is fair of the Employer to put their employees at such risk, you might want to check weather reports and if there are any travel advisories on ,ya might want to print it off,just for back up.
Remember though bosses and supervisors live for the job and they expect everyone else to as well.

Can I add, did you phone in and tell them about the unsafe road conditions,and you wouldn’t be coming in that day because of them?
You did owe them that.

Slavery has its dark side @KNOWITALL and as a wage slave you must obey your master or suffer the lash.

@rojo Ah very true but what good is a dead wage slave?If not only an example to the other wage slaves.

Meh, there are plenty more where she came from (why do you think there is no serious attempt to reduce the unemployment rate) and the very act of immediately replacing her would, in itself, be a lesson.

@rojo Yeah sad but very true in this day and age.

@SQUEEKY2 The first thing they say is “Did you try?” I reply “Yes and I slid several times and it’s just too dangerous for me to risk it, but I’m willing to come in if someone can come pick me up.”

I was told to stay home and they’d call if they wanted to come get me. They never did. The next day I was written up.

Honestly, I’m really good at driving on this stuff now, because in my current job, either I or another coworker have to make it in at all times, but we always work ahead if bad weather is coming so worst-case scenerio, our work will be done.

No, it’s definitely not fair. It is legal, though.

I’m lucky enough to work for people that tell us not to come in if we don’t feel safe on the roads. It sucks that it’s unpaid (if you don’t have paid leave, which I won’t have until April), but at least I won’t get in trouble.

It was a judgment call. Is your life worth your job? In most cases I would say the answer is no.

You were told OK stay home then, and the next day you were written up over not coming in?
Was this from the same person who told you to stay home?
I would contest that in a second.

My state had a “State of Emergency”, all non-essential driving was restricted. You can and should put a copy of the weather and driving conditions in the same personnel file, along with name and time the “they told me to stay home” person talked to you.

Please define “fair”

It is not, your way to work should be covered by your company’s insurance.in Germany, anyway

It’s not illegal because nobody’s actually forcing you to do anything. I don’t know how people do it in bad areas, because to me, if you can’t get there, you can’t get there. To me, to risk crashing my car, risk my health or to have a 3 hour ride is just not worth it. I work for the government, so they’re pretty liberal as far as, if you have to stay home, you just charge your time (charge it against your balance).

It depends if you’re in a union.

@Tropical_Willie – In my state, NJ, a “state of emergency” does not necessarily mean that people are not allowed to drive. They have a document explaining it. Your state probably has a similar document.

@ hearkat makes a good point. Where I work, there will be a state of emergency, and they’ll tell people stay off the roads, yet we’re expected to come to work.

@jca and @hearkat I was saying to document the condition of the roads and weather. Also to document who told her to stay home.

It is your responsibility to get to work safely. If you need to get there in a hovercraft, that is on you.

I think it is neither fair nor reasonable. It is legal in most places, however, because that’s what our corporate masters demand.

Not only is it not fair, it’s downright unreasonable.
The wheels of industry must keep turning, fuck that, choose life everytime!

Are any of you in a supervisory position? Can you even try to foment change in your own office/ sphere of influence?

@KNOWITALL In our office we’re really understanding about bad weather. We don’t want to see our staff get hurt. We think of them as extended family.

I don’t know whether it’s illegal or not but it’s certainly not right or fair. Fortunately, I never worked for any company that did not permit or even encourage employees to stay home when the weather made or appeared to make commuting dangerous.

@jca and @Tropical_Willie – My point was that a State of Emergency doesn’t automatically restrict travel; and has no bearing on the policies of individual employers. The information below is excerpted from the document I linked above.

”Many assume that if an SOE is declared, that you can’t drive or there are automatically curfews. IMPORTANT: That may or may not be true, so you have to pay attention to what is being said when the SOE is declared.

”The declaration does not normally restrict citizen movements or activities. It may limit access to affected areas due to concerns for public safety, the public should be notified of these restrictions.

”Employers should have a policy in place regarding severe weather, closures, time off rules and regs, etc. An SOE does not mandate policies for individual businesses regarding their employees.”

@KNOWITALL I’m not in a supervisory position, but I do have the authority to cancel my own classes. Several of us decided to do so in advance yesterday—enough that the university decided to just close down for the day (thus sparing a lot of non-faculty employees from having to come in as well).

The way they see it is, even on a nice Summer day, you can ’‘risk your life’’ coming to work. Traffic accidents and whatnot. So to them, this type of shit is often not justified. Which is bullshit, as it’s obviously much harder to drive around out in a blizzard, and increases the risk of accidents, most especially if you live in a place that is not used to heavy snow.

For sure they probably have all sorts of laws and crap to nullify any reason you might have to not come into work during such circumstances though. The only times they can’t do dick is if the city is pronounce officially closed…and even then, I think that only applies to governmental organizations. So if you work for some guy who owns his small business or something he can be all like, scr00 you woman, you comin inta WARK, ya heeeeard?

Filthy bastards.

ANIMALS, all of them.

@Symbeline I always make it in but I’d like the option when it’s really bad.
Meanwhile I have piles of sick days going unused, so I guess a person could just lie and use one of those.

@KNOWITALL You know, I’ve never worked anywhere where sick days could only be used when you’re sick. My current and former employers would be happy to let an employee use a sick day on a bad weather day if they had no personal days to spare.

Then again, I’ve only had three jobs where I even got paid time off. My employer now (and my husband’s) gives us paid time off and does not distinguish between sick and personal/vacation days. We get two weeks per year, period.

@livelaughlove21 Hmmm, how is your new job going anyway?

We are not really encouraged to use anything other than our vacation.

We are offered one personal day for business, one spirit day for community work, vacation, bereavement (I believe 3 days for immediate family), and I think 6 sick days per year.

@KNOWITALL We get 3 days bereavement leave as well, separate from the two weeks paid leave. You clearly get way more days off than I do – go you!

As for my job, it’s going great. I love it. Thanks for asking. :)

@livelaughlove21 In theory only, trust me…lol

Aye, I wanted to mention that as well. In some places, you can use your sick days and be honest about it; crappy weather, car broke down or even; I don’t feel like it. Technically, you ARE allowed to use these for whatever you want, they are yours and you earned them. (if you haven’t used any of these in the year, they’re supposed to be paid to you) I’ve known people who save them up and wait for a long weekend, add the sick days in and then have like a whole week off. (although is some cases, this is legitimately not allowed)

HOWEVER a lot of places WILL fight against the use of these unless you’re sick. They shouldn’t be allowed to do this, but if you let it happen, then they have the bigger end of the stick. Fighting for free use of sick days can be complicated, and most people won’t, so if you’re lucky you have a boss who respects the freedom sick days entail. But where I work I can just go, yo boss, using my sick day Friday, not coming in. She’s cool with this, the only thing she asks is that if I use a sick day this way when I’m not sick, to tell her in advance.

Of course, if I really do get sick and am out of sick days, then that’s my problem haha.

But laws might differ depending on what state/province/country you’re in, of course. Communists probably never get sick days.

Thankfully, our business changed the structure from Vacation, Personal, and Sick time to a pooled Paid Time Off accrual – which is much better for those of us who don’t get sick.

The employer is not making you do anything against your will, so he is not forcing you to come in to work. You have the option to not come in but not get paid. You might not like those options, but you can still exercise your free will to not come in. You can blame him for putting you in that position, but you can just as easily be blamed for putting yourself in that position.

Also, if you don’t like the idea of being “forced” into doing something, why is it that you feel it is perfectly acceptable to force an employee (making it illegal) to not “force” you to come into work during severe weather?

@eno In practicality, anyone who wants to KEEP their job is ‘forced’ to risk their life to come into work unless you have an ‘understanding’ management. A lot of us do not feel it’s an option because we need our jobs.

Anyway, that was an old job, not my current one, but I still resent being written up for bad weather, it was my ONLY write up in my entire life- lol

@KNOWITALL: The employee is still not being forced. Nobody’s holding a gun to their head. If it’s really that bad, the employee has to use their judgment and perhaps advocate for the consequences.

@hearkat: I understand what you were saying. Where we work, even if there’s a state of emergency, and you stay home, you have to charge your time. Rarely will the government say “stay home” it seems, but that also depends on the generosity of the big boss (politician).

Where I work, you get 3 weeks vacation (and more days after 10 years), 12 sick days, 12 holidays and 1 week personal. You’re not supposed to use sick when it snows but there’s plenty of other time to use.

@jca “Where I work, you get 3 weeks vacation (and more days after 10 years), 12 sick days, 12 holidays and 1 week personal.”

Wow! That’s awfully generous. Nearly 9 weeks off per year.

Our company allows us to choose if we want to use our PTO or if we want the time unpaid when we don’t work due to weather conditions – even if they choose to close the office.

Sorry I have to agree with @KNOWITALL anyone who wants to keep their job is being forced to brave bad weather and road conditions, you rest can say no one is holding a gun to your head,TRUE but if you want to keep your job you WILL show up,so tell me THAT IS NOT BEING FORCED?

@SQUEEKY2: The employee still has the option. The decision is their’s to make. If they look out the window and see two feet of snow, and decide it’s not do-able, do they not have the option?

@jca Sure if the Boss or Supervisor sees it like that,but if they got through all that snow then why shouldn’t the rest of the crew.
I wasn’t kidding when I said most bosses and supervisors live for the job, and they expect everyone else to as well.

You should check to see if your work has an inclement weather policy. As a nurse working in the hospital, I have to go to work when scheduled, and sometimes more since I live close to the hospital. Even so, we do have an inclement weather policy that states that in time of state of emergencies, an absence due to the weather is not held against us in our HR files as a call out.

@jca That’s not a genuine choice, however. If I offered you the choice between a bullet to the head or a knife to the chest, I doubt you’d accept the line “don’t put it on me, it’s your choice to make!”

My sister gets stuck doing an unreasonable amount of work during distasters and bad weather because she lives in Manhattan and works in Manhattan, and anyone who needs to commute from another burrough or Jersey call in sick when things are “bad.” It totally and completely sucks for her, she has called me crying from exhaustian, stress, and pain. Is it fair that her job just dumps all the work on her because others call in sick or don’t show up?

It really depends on the type of work. My sister works in healthcare and that never stops running. There are times when patients do indeed get neglected because there just are not enough medical professionals on hand during bad weather or a disaster. I hope that people don’t just use it as an excuse when really their roads aren’t that bad, but I know they do.

If it really is that bad to commute in I don’t think it is worth risking your own life, but I hope you cover for my sister and give her some comp days.

For desk jobs, eslecially if you can work from home, I don’t think people should go to the office, they risk their own life and others. Create more traffic for those who really need to go into work. Employers should be flexible.

@SavoirFaire: Choosing between two different types of harm, where you’re definitely going to be harmed regardless, and choosing between staying home or risking your life to get to work are two different things, two different types of choices. I’m sure there’s a more technical term for the different types of choices but I don’t know it.

If I had a choice between risking my life or getting fired, I am betting I will use my judgment and not chance it, and deal with the consequences.

Are there jobs where they fire people who don’t come in when the weather is bad? I don’t know. I know nurses will be working double shifts because the nurse that is relieving them can’t get in. Same with corrections officers. They don’t leave because the replacement couldn’t get there. If the employer wants to lose a good employee for something that is not the employee’s fault, then it’s really the employer that will suffer.

For me, the bottom line is if I can’t get in, I can’t get in. If I had to take it without pay, I would not be paid. If I got fired, it would be sad but I would have to deal with that (that’s why I am glad I work for the government where that’s not going to happen, and also I have the protection of a union, where that’s not going to happen from missing work in the snow). If the roads are really icy, no matter what you’re driving, even in an SUV, you are taking a chance.

Sometimes when it snows reallly bad around here, they close the interstate highway. How could someone get to work with really bad snow and the highway closed? I don’t know.

@jca The choice is still between two harms: losing your job and losing your life. Yes, the latter is a risk rather than a guarantee. Then again, neither a bullet to the head nor a knife to the chest are guaranteed to kill you. As I said before, though, I doubt that would be much comfort if I forced you to choose.

In any case, my example was not meant to be an analogy. It was meant to point out how empty it is to say “hey, it’s your choice.” Not all choices are meaningful ones, even if you can be said to have one due to a technicality. Furthermore, the existence of a choice does not entail that a situation is fair (which was the original question we were asked).

As for doctors and nurses, cities are supposed to keep track of where they live and plow them out first. Where I live, a plow traveled to several nurse’s homes this morning and picked them up so they wouldn’t have to drive. This is a bit above and beyond, but we were able to do it because the population here knows how to prioritize. The mall was closed today and won’t get plowed until tomorrow morning. The hospitals were open.

@SavoirFaire: I see above that I was addressing more of the second part of the OP’s question, “is it legal?” To answer “is it fair?” No, in my opinion it’s not fair.

That’s why I am glad I have a job where this is not an issue. I would choose to be fired.

My sister is a nurse. They don’t plow in front of nurses homes first from what I can tell. Maybe they do in smaller northern towns.

After 9/11 she worked days and days as an at home nurse. She was tortured. Dust in the air, triple load, carrying everying she needed with her with no transportation in lower manhattan. Walking everywhere, being carded constantly at corners. She would call me crying from the street from exhaustian and depression from the attacks on the towers. She probably should have let some of the people who needed wound care and other nursing needs go without. Let their families take care of them. Let their families and friends help. Of course, some of them don’t have families nearby. My aunt’s aides didn’t make it after storm Sandy. Her neighbor checked on her and my sister brought the water and some food.

At the time of storm Sandy my sister worked setting up home health care when patients were discharged from the hospital. She worked 14 hour days, days in a row, taking on huge loads of work for people who did not make it into work. Then she would walk to my disabled aunt with a few gallons of water walk eight flights up with the water so my aunt would have water to flush the toilets and drink. She did that for days. Then she would carry water up 9 flights to her own apartment. I think they comped her a day after that whole thing. Screw them. It’s one thing when people cover each other, it is amazing how quickly everyone forgets how much work it took for the people who stayed and did all the work. Once things are back to normal, everyone thinks everything is normal. But the scars and unfairness of those days stay with the emoloyees that worked it. They should get more than the days they worked comped to them. They do the coverage for days in a row, during disasters when they are worried themselves about their families or often can’t make it home and are stuck at the hospitals. The days in a row is much more difficult than if they take a comp day here and there and other staff covers for a day. They should get more than equal amount of comp days for battle “pay.”

@jca A lot of people choose to risk crashing or being hurt and go to their jobs. Most people do put their jobs first, because the money from the job sustains themselves and their family. If the snow is so deep it is impassable there is no choice. But, innthe south it often is not very deep, it is just icy. Just and icy don’t go together, but you know what I mean. It is not the driving, it is usually the braking that is the problem. A high platform car or four wheel drive vehicle doesn’t help in those cases.

Employers do stupid things all the time. They shouldn’t fire someone for not coming in during bad weather or a disaster, but some people abuse it. So, the employer should take it upon themselves to acknowledge very well and compensate the people who did come in and cover. If they saved payroll because those people did not come in they should pay the people who did a bonus, or give them double comp time back. Something, anything, without the employee having to ask for it. My sister always had to ask, sort of demand the time, and it never was a enough to feel just.

I don’t know if it is illegal and probably it would be hard to determine exactly what ‘bad weather is’ for each case. I do believe though if the weather is that- bad we have the _right to turn back. A reasonable employee would not penalize us for that. (As opposed to: It is a rotten day and it’s raining, kind of thing.)

By the way, emergency workers do not go out during extreme weather. When the hurricanes come, once winds are sustained above 40 mph they do not go out, if you are having a heart attack when winds are that high (by the way 40 mph is not anywhere close to hurricane speeds) too bad, no ambulance is coming. Neither is fire rescue, police, nobody. There is always calls into radio stations of people in their cars terrified or their home starts to pull apart, or flooding happens and they do not receive any help during the storm.

To me the question of legality has to do with “if you try to sue them for being responsible, do you have a leg to stand on in court?” I would think not. If the employee had a choice, and went against their better judgment, it’s on them, not on the employer.

Fair, no. Legal, yes.

@jca I wonder in a case like that if the employer would fight for unemployment not to be paid out.

@JLeslie I don’t live in a small northern town. I live in a small southern city. Regardless, my experience was the same when I lived in a large northern city (in New York, where it is state policy to plow out the areas where essential service workers live first; if that’s not happening with your sister, either someone is making a mistake or else the sort of work she does is not considered an essential medical service).

In any case, the anecdotes you give seem to be one big appeal to emotion fallacy with no bearing on what anyone has actually said. No one has been arguing that emergency workers typically go out during the emergency. No one is supposed to be going anywhere then. It’s during the aftermath that they are supposed to be prioritized.

@JLeslie: If someone is fired, I believe they’re not supposed to be entitled to unemployment. I am not 100% positive, so please can someone chime in, if they know for sure.

@SavoirFaire I know most people are talking about after the emergency, but it seemed to me someone asked about during. I was just stating there are clear rules for emergency workers during hurricanes and probably other situations too. My sister is in Manhattan. Pretty much all of Manhattan gets cleaned up usually and a lot of the movement of people is underground or walking. Medical professionals live everywhere. It’s true in some cities fire department and police tend to live near each other, but no rule for it. It is true that after storms things like electricity and roads are taken care of near hospitals, schools, and commerce, so if you live near those you are more likely to suffer less.

I work in government and I have never heard the rule that the homes of essential service workers are supposed to be plowed first. Maybe the dispatchers take care of their own, by making sure they dispatch plows to their own streets (THAT I have heard), but if we’re talking about nurses and doctors, they’re everywhere, along with cops, firemen, ambulance personnel, etc., so it seems a tall order to take care of all of those homes first, since we’re talking about a broad spectrum of jobs, population, and places where people might be.

This is an example of the social power bosses have over workers. Workplaces are effectively private tyrannies It is systemic coercion. Risk your life in the snow, or lose your job—and then maybe your home, possessions, go hungry, etc.

That most of us need to work for a boss at all is to avoid social stigma, going hungry, or homeless. There is no simple alternative to this. There’s no living in the woods, or being self-sufficient: practically all land and resources are monopolised by owners.

One can maybe find a more amiable boss, but this is difficult, and many people can’t even afford the time to look for a different job. Not that there are many jobs actually available or easily obtainable, and focusing on the character traits of individual bosses ignores the systemic coercion.

I think there are a few scenarios which would alleviate this problem of being forced to risk your life to work (and having to work to live—the irony!)

A more “liberal” government is elected, and they create laws obliging bosses to give their workers time off work during dangerous weather.

Union membership increases to more effective levels. Collective bargaining is used to equalise the imbalance in social power between bosses and workers, and workers tell bosses that they’ll be having their time off work during dangerous weather, and if they don’t like that, they’ll go on strike.

The most ideal scenario is one where there are no bosses, and workers control the means to create wealth themselves, and can rationally decide whether to work in dangerous conditions or not, without threats and dictates from a boss.

I saw an interview on TV with a local florist in some snowy city. Valentine’s is such a big day for them that you bet they were open. It showed the owner and two other people working in the store, maybe more people were working also. I would guess she expected everyone to make it to work. They caught a delivery guy on a snowy street delivering flowers also. Is it worth it to go out to deliver flowers? Wouldn’t everyone understand if their flowers were one day late?

@JLeslie: You bring up a good point about lost productivity during inclement weather. The bad winter that we’ve been having in 2014 has probably cost many if not most manufacturers, government, and service positions much in the way of productivity, due to lost income and lost revenue. For the Christmas shopping season, I know there were some bad snow storms right before that made shopping impossible. Just today, for Valentine’s Day, I bet the florists had trouble yesterday with delivery, will have a hard time making it up today with snow and ice everywhere, cancelled flights, people who were maybe going to go away for the weekend and decided instead to stay home and hunker down.

@jca Also, @livelaughlove21 made me realize that because if labor laws it is impossible to make up time the following week, because hours over 40 are overtime and more costly for the company. The hours would need to be worked in the same work week to not harm the company payroll expense.

My sister got fired from her last job because she didn’t want to risk wrecking her car on icy and snowy roads. I’m not sure how her former employer pulled it off considering it was a state emergency where no vehicles were allowed on the roads except for vital services and emergencies. She was on her last occurance, and they fired her, but that company only gave you three of them for the year.

@Paradox25 See, that’s what I’m talking about right there, that’s bs. It was either risk your life or lose your job, what a horrible position to be in. Working people can’t always afford new tires every two years and especially with so much of the work force being women, I just don’t think it’s cool at all.

I meant her job before this one. She works for Wegman’s now, and this company doesn’t have an attendence policy. I’m not sure how an employer can fire someone for not driving to work when it’s against the law to be on the road during a state emergency for non-vital services or occupations. She worked for an RV company when she got fired.

@Paradox25 – As I noted in my responses above, it is NOT against the law to drive during a state of emergency, unless they inform the public specifically which roads are closed. The link I posted is for New Jersey, but your state’s office of emergency management should have a similar document on the web.

The announcement of declaring a state emergency seemed pretty clear to me, that being on any roads in the state except for non-essential services was forbidden. Also, my town also declared a local emergency where no vehicles were allowed on the streets either. In fact I remember the radio announcer specificaly mentioning that vehicles caught out on the streets or roads would be ticketed.

Actually, after looking this up it appears snow emergency laws can be vague concerning this topic. Technically if an at will employer fires you for not showing up they can still be held liable if you can’t make it to work, if this occured during a state of emergency, according to an employment lawyer’s article I had read. I had looked up my own state’s laws and the description seems rather vague.

I wish the laws would be more clear in situations like this. Should people drive to work or not if their employer wants them to for non-essential services? Also, will the employer pay my medical expenses if I get injured while driving, or will they buy me a new vehicle if I wreck mine? Most employers that I had worked for closed for declared state of emergencies due to bad weather/snow, but for some reason my sister’s employer didn’t when they fired her.

@Paradox25 ”...will the employer pay my medical expenses if I get injured while driving, or will they buy me a new vehicle if I wreck mine?”

If I was ever in a situation where my employer was demanding I come to work in very unsafe conditions, I would make them sign and e-mail me a copy stating they would cover those costs if I had an accident as a result of the dangerous conditions, before I would consider leaving the house.

The problem with suing an employer is that you can win the battle but you won’t win the war. Do you think you will successfully sue, win your job back and then the employer won’t try to get you for something else? No employee is perfect and your employer is going to be “hawking you” and will pounce the first chance they get. Also, with a non-unionized job, you can demand they sign something, they’re not going to sign it but they are going to think you’re out of your mind which won’t win you any brownie points with management.

@Paradox25 – They keep the general declaration vague and add restrictions as needed based on the specifics of the current event. If it was announced that vehicles on the roads in the town where your sister lived or worked would be ticketed on that date, then it was against the law for her to travel in that area on that date. Your sister might have been able to fight for wrongful termination if she could get proof that the town had restricted travel to that extent; but as @jca mentions, it would be awfully uncomfortable going to work in a job you had to sue to keep.

@hearkat It was the town her house is located in, so there was no avoiding it. She didn’t like that employer anyways so she didn’t fight it. I believe it was a Friday she missed, and they walked her out the following Monday. Most employers that I had closed for storms when a state emergency was declared.