What do you think of military and law enforcement?

It doesn’t matter what we think, but what the people doing it think. For some, it’s just a job where they feel no attachment to the esprit de corps that is pummeled into your head from the start. For others, they are all about the lifestyle, then there’s the people in the between who shift between these ideologies. You also have kids who had to join to get their trust funds, kids who were given the choice to join or go to jail etc.

It’s no different than any other job, people take whatever path they want for various reasons.

Some people start out as “Joe Navys” or “Captain Americas” only to switch 180 degrees once the military screws them over somehow. Some do the opposite and hate it from the start and swear up and down they’ll get out after four years, but stay in because they learned to love it or had too many kids and need the medical benefits.

@Blackberry I’m talking about YOUR feelings, not theirs. :)

Another caveat on law enforcement: It’s really annoying when people look at police brutality on the news and start the whole “screw the police” thing. It’s usually the people that haven’t had any encounters with the police, or if they did, they were disrespectful and wondered why the cop would retaliate.

I’ve been pulled over a lot and one thing that remains constant is being nice. All you have to say is “Yes, sir” and No, sir/Ma’am”. No excuses unless they’re legitimate (pregnant wife in the car etc), and no arguing to get out of it. I’m a black male and have never had a cop be mean to me at all so if I can, you can :)

@KNOWITALL Someone cares about meeee :D

I don’t think anything about them as a whole. There are good people in the military and in law enforcement and there are corrupt individuals as well. They’re certainly not all the same and anyone who thinks that clearly has their own biases working over any logical thought they may have otherwise. I know quite a few people that hate anyone in law enforcement – I did internships in law enforcement and those were some of the best people I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with. I’ve also had contact with cops on a power trip that think their shit don’t stink. Disliking an entire group of people based on their chosen profession is no better than disliking an entire group of people based on anything else. It’s just ignorance.

I’m suspect of power, and that suspicion applies to those that seek it. Sure, certain types of people gravitate towards positions of power. And we know that humans are corrupted by power. But that doesn’t imply that every single police officer is an authoritarian, corrupt madman. It’s a generalization. We all engage in generalizations. It’s a necessary part of our understanding the world.

When we say that humans have two legs, we are not saying that all humans have two legs. When we say that murdering someone’s daughter right in front of them would be emotionally devastating to a parent, we’re not claiming that this is the case for all parents. These are generalizations that allow us to communicate and use logic and reason to make sense of the world.

Anyway, back to police officers. A “bad” cop has consequences that are far greater than a “bad” projectionist at an independent movie house. And since police officers are people, who are susceptible to influence from power, self-protection, bad moods, money, prejudice, etc., it’s not surprising that there are many people who fear the police. I’m a white male and I fear them. I didn’t fear them when I was young. It took a single incident that involved a cop pressing his face within one inch of mine and telling me that he could “take care of me” in the back of his police car, “if you know what I mean”, to realize what it feels like to be face-to-face with a shitty person who has been given complete power over me.

We need police, and I don’t have a solution to the fact that we are forced to hire human beings in this role. Do I hate all cops? No. I distrust the profession, as I feel everyone should. We give law enforcement power so they can protect us. But that same power can be – and is – used to also hurt us.

Overall I have positive feelings for both. I have had mostly very good interactions with police and military. I think most of them take their jobs seriously, and want to help others.

However, I do think a portion of the military and police force are people who like to control others, be in charge, are power hungry, insecure, violent, and angry. There are people who are a combination. They want to help others, and then they go home and beat their wives. They care about safety, but then they themselves will do unsafe things.

When I find out a doctor of mine was former military I feel very positive about what my experience will be like with them. I am pretty negative about doctors and medical care as you know. Almost every pilot I know was previously in the military, and they are all great people.

Usually I am happy to see police presence and feel I can approach them. Although, sometimes cops that ticket for speeding piss me off. LOL. Even worse are those traffic cameras for intersections. I think they are a hazard.

For some it is just a job. My dad was a commissioned officer. A desk job, not in the armed forces. He wasn’t really in the mode of serving his country so to speak, it was just his job. But, he does value what his branch of the service does. It wasn’t just a job in the sense that it was purely just a paycheck, but it wasn’t the typical “fighting for our country” mentality.

When I think of the service and police jobs I don’t just think of fighting wars and catching criminals. I have a much broader view.

Not enough pink uniforms, seriously.

@hominid Have you personally known any police or military personnel?
I’m curious about why you feel suspicious of people in power. Do you have any insights as to why you feel that emotio- like a mean father who abused his power, or something like that?

(By the way, this is for my own betterment, not just gratuitous question.)

@ucme You got that right, colored camo is da bomb.

Soldiers are state employed murderers. Pigs are not much better.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IRfluaMKoOY

@KNOWITALL: ”@homind Have you personally known any police or military personnel?”

My father is a Vietnam vet. My cousin and his wife served in the navy. Both of my grandfathers had fought in WWII. I haven’t known any police officers personally.

@KNOWITALL: “I’m curious about why you feel suspicious of people in power. Do you have any insights as to why you feel that emotio- like a mean father who abused his power, or something like that?”

I thought I answered that. Review my answer above.

@hominid I’m curious about the psychology on YOUR side of the equation, but thanks!

Your first “authority figures” were your parents, or caretakers. That’s right, it all goes back to Mom and Dad! Not that you can blame them. They were just passing on—quite unconsciously—pretty much what they experienced when they were that age.

Our feelings about authority are governed primarily by the implicit memory system. They emerged through interactions with our parents in the early years. It is where our feelings towards authorities are imprinted and hence why we respond the way we do.

If your mother or father (or caretakers) felt it was better to evoke fear to get you to obey them, then you probably have ambivalent feelings about authority. Indeed, if they had ambivalent or conflicted feelings about authority figures, then almost certainly you picked up on them, albeit non-consciously.

In particular, if you experienced abuse at the hands of your parents/caretakers or anyone you trusted when you were very young, then you’re much more likely to have authority issues.

http://www.myshrink.com/counseling-theory.php?t_id=6

I have the utmost of respect for LEO’s and the men and women in our military. Even though as a teenager I had a few run in’s with dickhead egotistical cops (and no I did not deserve an attitude from them) but I also had really positive experiences with fair and reasonable Police Officers. Every time I have had to file a Police Report or meet at the Station each experience was in the presence of very nice, courteous and helpful Officers.

All Military men and women are just fabulous and bad-ass for all that they do for our country.

@KNOWITALL – You’re dismissing my ethical position on power as a result of upbringing. My instinct is to analyze any source of power and attempt to justify its existence. If it is unjustified, we are morally obligated to remove it. I needn’t describe to you what happens when people are given power over other people.

But we are faced with the need for law enforcement. The fact that there are humans that will not follow the law without the threat of someone who can exercise authority and power over them poses a problem. We are forced to give more power to certain people (the police). But in doing this, we are now exposing ourselves to something we understand to be unjust and dangerous. Like I said, it appears to be a necessity, and I don’t have a solution other than to say that we should hold law enforcement to the highest standards and it should be entirely transparent.

Now, if this has something to do with how I was raised, I’d love to hear your thoughts. Here’s my story: I lived with my mother and father until age 11. Neither of them were very “authoritarian”. They were both respectful, never hit me, hardly ever raised their voice, and I was given responsibility, freedom, and trust from a young age. At 11 years old, my father left home and my mother raised me. She continued the same approach.

I’m not sure where you can go with this. Even if you were to draw some connection with my childhood, which I find unlikely, aren’t you concerned that you would be dismissing my position on authority without addressing the merits or weakness of my position? You are likely not going to advocate for a totalitarian state. But if you spend a few moments to explain why you are opposed to a totalitarian state, and I ignore your statements and simply ask what your home life was like as a child, I think you’d agree that it’s not really dismissive.

^ edit: “I think you’d agree that it’s not really dismissive.” I really need to make a habit of reading over my comments. There are way too many typos.

@hominid I’m not dismissing anything, I’m just interested in the psychology because there many more people here on fluther that seem to have problems with authority than most in my area. There’s usually a reason for most everything we feel.

**I can’t draw conclusions from your personal situation except to speculate that perhaps your father leaving while you were young led you to resentment for authority, which the father figure usually represents in a household.
And since my father was never in my life, you could say my need for authority could stem from that, and structure from the lack of that in my life (hippies.)

@KNOWITALL: “I’m just interested in the psychology because there many more people here on fluther that seem to have problems with authority than most in my area”

I too am interested in the socioeconomic class and regional correlations of attitudes towards authority. It might be a great separate question. We studied socioeconomic class and methods of child rearing when I was in school. It’s fascinating, and much of it made sense.

But that might be a different question from what you or I think about authority. We can talk about what we believe and why (theism). But another fascinating – but separate – topic would be the facts concerning how people are raised, indoctrination, etc. and their positions on the god question when they are an adult.

@hominid Sounds good to me, ask away!

I’ve heard a few people here say something about only the lower classes showing admiration or joining the services as a form of upward mobility as well, but I don’t think any of those have posted thus far.

Some thoughts:

1. The move to an all-volunteer army gave us a mercenary class of warriors that do not represent the population in ideology or values, and are disconnected from the population at large. This has had a profound effect on policy.

2. since 9–11 there has been an arming of police departments across the country to the point that local law enforcement is now of a paramilitary stature. Police are now conducting operations with full armor and full on automatic weapons and SWAT teams where in the past they would have approached with one or two officers with guns holstered. And it seems every week, someone innocent is killed by police when a gun should not have been even drawn, let alone fired.

So while I know each individual is different, I have an overarching distrust of the police in this country. And I don’t have a tremendous amount for the Army either.

@zenvelo Thanks!

I guess for myself, I’d probably use the word ‘patriot’ instead of ‘mercenary class’ as a descriptive. I see them more as protectors than killers. Interesting….

No personal situations with authority or parents I guess?

Both are just jobs.

The worst thing most police face are average people with bad attitudes towards them because of the viral video of the week.They’re just doing their job; don’t make their life any harder, and they won’t make your life any harder.

As for romanticizing the military and all, my average day in the Navy consisted of 10–12 hours of electrical work, 8 hours of walking around the boat on watch, and 2 hour of fire drills. Ooooh, action! Excitement! Danger! Seriously, forget all the stories your uncle told you about ‘Nam and forget Hollywood and highlight reels; the really real military is just a job with long hours, low pay, and bad food. Those in the military are just a bunch of guys that are waiting for their time to expire. Maybe they still have youthful delusions of US superiority, maybe the truth hit them and made them cynical bastards, but at the end of the day, they’re nothing special; just guys in uniforms.

@KNOWITALL I see nothing patriotic in the way the recruitment for the Armed Forces is currently conducted. It’s generally advertised as a quid pro quo, for instance a short path to citizenship for some, or a way to get job training for others.

I’ve had my dealings with authorities, some good, some not so good. Most police I’ve seen have not been able to demonstrate much understanding of nuance, nor weigh statements that contradict a world view.

@jerv Not really related, but there was a soldier stationed in Iraq some years ago that sent a letter to a video game magazine I read. In the letter he said that being in a war is 98% complete yawn inducing boredom, and 2% complete and absolute terror. I wish CaptainHarley and that John guy who’s a cop still had active accounts here and would chime in.

@jerv @zenvelo
My great-uncle Sonny never came back from ‘Nam, so there’s no romanticizing for me, I know it’s life and death. My two uncles were Marine’s (Korea), but they both got out and moved on, didn’t really have much to say about it.

On the other hand, my grandfather helped liberate concentration camps and although he wouldn’t talk about it, I know it broke his heart utterly and completely.

A friend of the family still has PTSD from being Master Sargeant, and is the kindest human being I’ve pretty much ever met. Both his sons are military, one active, one injured.

Maybe I think about it way differently, and that’s okay, but the whole point to me is that cops and soldiers are willing to give their lives for me without even knowing me, leave their families for years, and for that I feel like I owe them respect.

I’ve seen bad thing’s, heard some bad stories, seen bad videos (Abu Ghraib of course), but for some reason, I still think they’re heroes. I kind of take it personally when Westboro and other people demean them, too. I guess it’s a whole different mind-set than you guys. I don’t think it’s just a job.

@Symbeline Pretty much. Remember, most people only get the highlight reel. They don’t see the stuff that actually happens between those rare moments of excitement.

@jerv Heh heh are you sure it wasn’t you who sent the letter? The guy explained exactly that.

@KNOWITALL Well, I’ve seen the good and the bad, but most of what I’ve seen from the ex-military is guys that do their time, get out as E4-E7, get a normal job that pays far better (often one unrelated to what they did in the service; surprisingly few skills are transferable), and enjoy working a mere 8–10 hours a day instead of 12–22. Just guys. And they were the same people when they were in, just with sorter hair and different clothes.

@Symbeline Wasn’t me. I never saw combat, and spend most of my time hundreds of miles from where most combat actually takes place; land. Whoever wrote it, it sounds like they were a ground-pounder.

@jerv I’d retype the whole letter here, if I could remember in which issue that was in…I still have it, but haha I can’t remember which one it is. Yeah, he was in the desert with his unit, they basically sat there for like two months.

@jerv One of my uncles started preaching, the other works in FL at the VA. You’re really the only one I’ve ever heard say it’s ‘just a job’ tbh.

My bio-dad was Air Force & Deputy Sherriff, total tool @hominid- lol

@KNOWITALL Well, deification of the military is more common on the right side of the fence than the left, and the Midwest is more conservative than the Northeast, Northwest, or SoCal. I think that one’s opinions on the military really do go hand-in-hand with one’s politics with few exceptions, and that in turn varies based on geography, but I digress. Suffice it to say that I am not surprised that the people here whose political leanings I know have the opinions they do of those in uniform.

@jerv My family is mostly Democrats with a few bratty ‘publicans like me and a few others thrown in but I get the drift. I’m not sure my admiration for my family members service is something they’d necessarily appreciate, it’s just a fact.

@KNOWITALL Let’s separate police from Armed Forces, there is a big difference.

I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for WWII and Korea vets, they had a God awful task and most did it without too much complaint and with honor.

And I have much sympathy for Vietnam Vets who were drafted; not much for those who volunteered for Vietnam.

But not much for those who have been part of the all volunteer force since 1974, they signed up for it. And while I am thankful for those who went to Afghanistan 12 years ago, I am not at all moved by those who went to Iraq. They were not fighting for me or for the U.S. They were Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney’s private Army.

@zenvelo I wonder how many of those who venerate the military do so out of either nostalgia (thinking the military is just as glorious and just as it was 60 years ago), or sympathy. It used to be fighting for justice; now it’s kids getting blown up just trying to get some college money, or just escaping unemployment.

Necessary evils, that’s about it. lol

Interesting thread. I can understand those that despise the military, but not those that view it as just another job. If you are vehemently anti-war, the military is the face of that which you hate. There was a lot of that in the 60s and 70s. Maybe misguided but understandable. The military, however is not something you join but rather something you become. I joined the Navy in ‘65 and for 6 years I was a sailor every minute of every day. Not just when I was on the ship or on the base or on duty.

@Jaxk I had a neighbor who joined the Army vecause she was having trouble finding a job she liked and she felt the army would place her in a job that was appealing. I hope that was what happened. She joined when Iraq was in full swing. A young woman who worked for me, her fiance joined the army, and when I asked her if she was worried about it she said, “no, I am so excited. We will be able to live in different places around the world.” Also, during Iraq being in full swing. Once in the service they most likely became very proud of their branch of service and maybe became more and more inwardly and outwardly proud and thoughtful about America and the armed services, but when they started they were looking for a job.

Those who do their initial contract and then get out are probably more likely to be people who see it more as a job, but you obviously did not retire with the military and still saw it as more than just a job, so I am not trying to overgeneralize.

There are peiple who become doctors with the military because it is free. Pilots with the military because it is free.

@JLeslie

I have no problem with your examples. I joined because I wanted to be a pilot. It never happened because my eyes weren’t good enough. Regardless of the reason for joining the transformation still happens. That is the whole reason for boot camp.

@Jaxk I don’t doubt that there is a transformation for the majority of people. I would guess that for some, when they have decided to leave the service (not retire) they spend some months distancing themselves emotionally to be able to leave. Although, I know many people who left before retirment who loved the service and only speak well of it.

The example of my father, his job just happened to be a commissioned position. If it had been civil service he would have done the job just the same. My family does love the military perks and benefits though.

Thanks everybody, I think I got a little more clarity. I’m still not sure I understand the ‘despising’ pov, but we’ll move on. It’s so interesting that people in the same country have such opposing viewpoints on any given situation like this.

And to those who serve(d), thank you.

@KNOWITALL Maybe some of it has to do with the overall culture towards authority. You discussed this above somewhat I know. My dad, who was in the service as I said, but basically by default, questions authority. He does not blindly support what the military does.

Right now in the country the Christian right is extremely caught up in showing support for the troops. It has become political and religious. I would guess someone doing or saying something against the popular thinking regarding the military in your community is going not only against the norm in the community, but it is viewed as antiAmerican, which is also antiChristian.

I feel strongly about supporting our troops, especially the transition when they come home from war, but I do not blindly support what they do, and in the end they are people, and some of the people are assholes, even in the military. Some joined for the wrong reasons. Same with police officers. I think it is the minority, not the majority, but they exist. Generalizations about how wonderful military people and police are, are the same as any generalization. In the end you need to meet the individual.

I think it is very important to be able to say negative experiences or observations we make about the military and police. Right now in America that is incredibly frowned upon regarding the military. It is a problem. A problem for the military personnel themselves. They also need to be able to speak out and be heard regarding a negative situation in the military. Too many reports are coming out of criminal behavior being squashed and quieted.

@JLeslie I was always raised to question authority, trust me on that (those hippies remember?) but I was also taught to show respect to those in authority UNTIL or UNLESS they no longer deserved it.

In some areas, it would be dangerous for an anti-military group, like Westboro for instance, to come here with malicious intent. People here, bikers and normal folks, have many ties to the military so yes, I think many of us do take it very personally.

@KNOWITALL I would say we can agree we should simply never stop thinking and questioning. Thinking about whether something seems right or wrong no matter what or who we are talking about.

@JLeslie Agreed. :)

We are actually more of a federation of small countries not unlike the EU, even though we are officially designated a Republic. We are physically larger than many countries, and considering how diverse even WA state is (the strongly Red Eastern rural WA balanced by the fact that half the population lives in the more liberal Seattle metroplex),it’s no surprise to me that our nation is so culturally variable.

Visit Seattle sometime and see how different it is from small-town Missouri. Then multiply that out to cover the rest of the country. As someone who has lived in all four corners of the lower 48, I can honestly say that we have a wide range of cultures under one flag.

@jerv Yes, I may, a friend just moved there recently. I have been out of the country and drove cross-country a time or two, but you don’t always get the full experience if you don’t hang with the locals. Thanks!