Did Rev Fred Phelps help or hinder gay rights and/or religion?

He did bring attention to the cause.

I’d say on a nationwide scale, his actions ultimately helped the LGBTQ…(however the hell it goes) community as it drew a bit more attention and quite a bit more empathy for our fellow human beings.

Sometimes I think he helped them. His views were so extreme and ridiculous that it put a public face on homophobia, that of a deranged extremely hateful nutcase. So in essence, the WBC “made homophobes look bad” and that can only help gay rights. That said, obviously I don’t approve of his methods and disrupting people’s funerals is about as low as you can get.

From what I’ve heard, in general, religious homophobia has gone a long way towards decressing religiosity amongst millenials. I think it’s safe to say such ugly behavior does an excellent job of getting visibility for the issue while making it very clear who the asshole is.

The former pastor. (He was excommunicated by the church he created.)

The ends do not justify the means.

In the end, he brought attention to those who suffer from intolerance by being rabidly intolerant. But his hatred and venomous talk inflicted pain and suffering on many, scars that run deeper than any benefit that followed.

And, much of his intolerance was not criticized until he disrespected fallen soldiers. Before that there were only those of us who were mindful of our loving yet ostracized friends who spoke out.

I understand there is no funeral planned. A bitter hateful heart will be mourned by no one.

There’s no question that @DominicX wins the cigar. But the great benefits bestowed upon the gay rights movement are sadly countered by the growing perception of the country’s heartland as a thriving refuge for bigots and lunatics.

I doubt he hindered religion, but his theatrics probably made most of the rest of the anti-gay religious right look even more retarded than it is.

@stanleybmanly As you know the heartland has many LGBT’s who are happily living amongst us without fear or intimidation or slurs, I don’t think it’s quite as popular here to be anti-LGBT as some would have the rest of the world believe.

It’s insulting actually, that everyone thinks all midwesterners are gay-bashers. A group of pastors even spoke out publicly about that particular subject recently making sure to get the message out that EVERYONE is welcomed with open arms.

“A study just released by Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health finds that gay people living in communities entrenched with high levels of anti-gay bigotry, prejudice, and hate, are expected to die 12 years earlier than their peers living in more progressive and accepting environments.” (Source)

Bigotry and hate kill.

I don’t personally have any emotions about Fred Phelps death, but I have a lot to say about bigotry and hate. Bigotry and hate must be fought everywhere they spew their bile. It’s a matter of life and death.

There is a lot of talk among LGBT circles of rising above the precedents set by the bigoted and hateful people of the Westboro Baptist Church. I have mixed feelings about that. I understand the sentiment. He’s dead. Let’s forget him. Forgetting is a great weapon against such vitriolic bigotry and hate.

On the other hand, I understand the desire of an eye for an eye. He deserves what he dished out. I am not in a position to picket his funeral, which I understand there is none planned. I live too far away. Were I closer, I would be tempted to participate in a demonstration. The bigotry and hate Fred Phelps unleashed was demonic, and it deserves to be countered.

Should it be countered with love? I don’t know. I’m no saint. I’m human with fallible emotions, and those are mixed at present.

@KNOWITALL I will grant you that things have shifted RECENTLY, and that just as there were plenty of white folks in the South that abhorred segregation, a substantial proportion of heartland residents held no malice nor fears regarding gay people. Nevertheless, you must accept the fact that it would be difficult to find a duplicate of the Westboro Baptist Church anywhere BUT the “heartland”. And when they do pop up, it’s RARELY in Kansas City or St Louis

@stanleybmanly I would like to point out that Scott Lively carries his message of bigotry and hate to the far corners of Russia and all of Africa from his Massachusetts-based organization.

@stanleybmanly You know, the first gay man I knew was named Bobby and was very flamboyent, and that was back in the early 80’s, but he was not bitter, did not feel abused or persecuted. Frankly, I think the same small groups of people who practice intolerance are probably the same as there are today.

If we were able to resolve the religious issue (the Bible says one man one woman, which I hear ALL the time), there would be no problem at all, except maybe a few backwoods biker types. And just because some people here don’t accept that lifestyle as okay, it certainly doesn’t mean they’d persecute them like Westboro or anything.

Being comparatively late to the question, I can only agree with @DominicX and @fundevogel. He turned out to be a powerful advocate for gay and lesbian rights and a strong disincentive for the young to practice religion on “faith” alone.

Thanks, Freddy. Enjoy your dirt nap.

@ibstubro Hey you’re from this area, how is the anti-gay sentiment in your experience?

@Hawaii_Jake We need a working definition of the foggy term “heartland”. Given the time, I can nearly guarantee to find some burg or another here in California that is a lighthouse for regressive bigotry.

@KNOWITALL. I seem to be mainstream in saying, “If you make your sexuality someone else’s business, be prepared for the response.” From the ‘one man + on woman’ to the gay rainbow bumper sticker, don’t be surprised by a happy wave or the middle finger.

‘Round here, if you make your sexuality everyone’s business, everyone will generally be displeased. We’re a conservative bunch, and sex belongs in the bedroom.

I’d say helped, I bet right now he’s in hell being used as a cock holster by a group of neo nazis.
They’re going to be so grateful to him for his outstanding work in the field.

@ibstubro – What? Are you describing how you feel or your awful community?

@stanleybmanly Heartland is an American term referring to states of the Union that – as in the words of commentator Ronald Brownstein – “don’t touch an ocean,”[1] whether the Atlantic or Pacific. At least as early as 2010, however, the term Heartland is used in a non-derogatory sense to not only refer to the Midwestern United States, but also states of the Bible Belt and any other states belonging to the so-called red states.

According to the United States Census Bureau, the mean center of population in the U.S. in 2010 was in or around Texas County, Missouri. In 2000 it had been northeast from there, in Phelps County, Missouri. It is projected for the mean center of population to leave the MidWest and enter the Western U.S. by the middle of the twenty-first century.

@ibstubro Right, that’s how it is here pretty much. The LGBT’s I know just live normal lives and don’t make out in public, but neither do hetero’s because it is a conservative area for the most part. But I don’t see any protest or violence and we have parades and gay clubs, so I feel it’s a mutual understanding of ‘live and let live’ for the most part.
One of the most popular gay clubs here is a blast and hetero’s go party there all the time, no problems.

He was not on my radar at all. I think the people who already believed as he did were further encouraged by him and people like him. That can be bad, because it keeps the emotions high on the topic. I also think he was so extreme it probably caused a lot of people to have empathy for the LGBT community. So, it’s a mixed bag in my opinion.

It’s like saying did the holocaust help Jews? I know it is not perfectly analogous, but a lot of people argue the horrors of the holocaust against the Jews helped the UN decide to give Israel to the Jewish people. Mixed bad. As a Jew I would have preferred my people never to have been treated badly even if it meant a longer road to Israel or never getting it.

I’m describing the local mentality, @hominid. Where I live people generally do not make public displays of affection. You hold the hand of your child, not your mate, because one is dependent and the other is not.

“Clubs”?? @KNOWITALL I thought you were in the Bible Belt! We have one gay bar here and that serves several towns and the tri-state area. I don’t know of another with an hour’s drive. Oddly enough, it doesn’t even appear to be a thriving business. More of a alley-way dive.

@ibstubro Yes mutiple and popular, like I said, our gay community is really cool. We are a college town, too, which probably helps. Lots of liberals and conservatives living side by side.

I remember once in school the guys were being bullies and decided to throw bars of soap at the homeless, but I never heard about any gay-bashing growing up, and trust me, I was in the thick of thing’s with a fairly rough crowd for awhile.

Here’s an article I find interesting, need I say more?! -

The number of attacks against gays is on the rise in New York City, with 68 reported anti-gay incidents this year, 41 of which are assaults and six of which are felonies. In one case, a 32-year-old gay man was murdered in Greenwich Village.

Last year, the New York Police Department investigated 54 hate crimes against gays. But so far this year, there have already been 68 anti-gay incidents, which means the city is on track to see double the number of attacks on gays by the end of 2013, the New York Daily News reports.

While some of these incidents involve anti-gay slurs, others are more serious, involving physical attacks and in one case, murder.

http://rt.com/usa/anti-gay-crimes-double-691/

Real progressive and hip I guess?

It is a shame that he has died. He was one of the few people in the west that showcased the true nature of the abrahamic religions.

Here’s a list of hate crimes against LGBT’s in America, as you’ll see it’s mostly the larger cities, not rural areas, so blaming God, religion or anything like that seems a little misguided. Theists may not agree with it, but most won’t try to hurt or kill you over it, geesh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States

and guess where the source of anti-gay hatred is located. whenever someone publically explains the cause of his opposition to gays, it is almost always “god”.

The Westboro Baptist Church is known for god fearing hatred. Phelps was the symbol of this, May he burn!

@ragingloli I guess that can be said for those of us who are accepting as well though, because Jesus teaches love and acceptance and non-judgement.

I just asked a friend (college student) if she thought this area was anti-gay and she said her church recognizes gay marriage.

All I’m saying is that to those of us who live here, it seems greatly exaggerated.

@KNOWITALL: “so blaming God, religion or anything like that seems a little misguided.”

Huh? First of all, we’re all aware that homophobia and violence against homosexuals is a national problem. I’m somewhat confused at where you’re going with that link? Are you suggesting that there is data there that suggests that the per capita (and “out” LGBT) rate of violence is higher in larger cities? I don’t see that data at all. Do you?

But back to god – of course god and religion are in the conversation. The bible itself contains verses that can easily be interpreted (and _are) as stating that homosexuals should be put to death. Phelps was an exaggeration (Poe’s law?), but his position is not all that different from much what many churches preach, right?

I get the feeling that you seemed compelled to defend your state or area of the country. No need to get defensive. The whole country is polluted with bigotry and ignorance. But in 2014, there are people on this site from the mid west that think staying in the closet is ok – because supposedly straight people are in the closet too. You can’t even marry the person you love in these states, yet putting a rainbow sticker on your car will get you the middle finger – and we’re supposed to be ok with that.

He helped the cause while inflicting pain on the individuals.

He was an excellent example of what not to do or be.

He sure did, he helped the GLTB society more than not.

Much as I believe The Reverend Al Sharpton reinforces the prejudice against blacks as a whole.

@hominid Westboro is in Kansas. I was responding to @stanleybmanly‘s comment about the heartland, which is Missouri by definition.

The link I provided listed hate crimes against LGBT’s by incident and most are in larger cities, not the ‘heartland’.

I naturally feel I should object against misleading statements about my area, of course. Many people move here from the big cities because it’s a better place to live for some, and they get a mansion here for what an apartment would cost in a large city, minus the crime rate. And apparently the hate crimes.

God is always in the equation, it’s just that some people have a different view of the answer to WWJD. Not all theists believe the same thing, we’ve had this conversation many times here. Lumping all theists in with Westboro or their ilk, is a disservice to the conversation.

@Hypocrisy_Central It’s LGBT= Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaan, I don’t know about all that; I just think huge numbers of military persons should attend his funeral, but not go inside. No posters, no chants, just a fairwell presence.

I think being entombed in the septic tank on a military base would be appropriate, personally, @Jonesn4burgers, but that’s just me. Wouldn’t it be nice if our troops could quietly and unobtrusively piss and shit on his rotting corpse on a daily basis until he was ultimately reclaimed by the Earth?

@KNOWITALL: “minus the crime rate.”

Missouri’s crime rate is higher than the New England states, so again, I’m not sure….

@KNOWITALL: “And apparently the hate crimes”

Show me the data. Having less people – and a likely smaller out LGBT community – and therefore a fewer number of reported hate crimes isn’t something to brag about. You could be right – it could be statistically safer to be gay and out in Missouri than gay and out in Massachusetts. I’d like to see the data before I grant you that, however. So far, all I see is that the violent crime rate is higher in MO than MA overall.

@hominid Sure, Kansas City and StL are notoriously crime-ridden, gangland areas.

I’ll try to find data by city somewhere.

I don’t think he made a huge difference either way. I don’t think he made anyone that previously disliked homosexuals suddenly approve of them. And I don’t think he made homophobes more homophobic. He did piss off a lot of folks, though.

Not meaning to invoke Godwin’s Law, you might as well ask if Hilter ended up helping the Jews, since without his merciless attempts at genocide, there probably would have never another State of Israel. Only 6 million had to die to make that happen.

Large city’s crime rates are often concentrated in a few specific areas. Moving out of a city for safety is generally stupid.