Should this man be released from prison?

I wonder what the punishment is for the clerk of courts that made the error?

There’s something missing in this story.

How do you get a 98 year sentence for a simple robbery? I don’t buy this on the face of it/

I don’t have an answer to the question. I’m taken aback by the 98 year sentence for 2 crimes in which no one was injured or killed.

That’s what I’m sayin’ folks… My last question was how much money would the prison system loose if Lima was set free?

The Prison for Profit system is rampant in U.S. With Lima, they have a 98 year client that society guarantees an exorbitant amount for.

Check out this video on the Prison for Profit system

It is pretty fucked up that I am making a game of this. I have clicked no links yet and I am guessing that this is in the south and he isn’t white.

Edit… Colorado and not white. 50% right and not much of a shock.

At 19:50 on the video link above, the accusation is made that Private Prison’s lobby for stiffer and longer prison sentences.
“Their lobbyists work behind the scenes to defeat reforms”.

“They have an investment in making sure people fail”.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/23/pennsylvania.corrupt.judges/

That is an amazing story @johnpowell… Jailing teens for cash?!?!?!

I’m pleased both the judges were disbarred and imprisoned.

The stock market shouldn’t try to make love to our justice system.

Really no more than anyone else who committed the same crime.

But this isn’t about punishment or rehabilitation. It’s about sustaining the prison-industrial complex.

No. He should be sent back. You do the crime, you do the time. I don’t see the fine details, but it does say multiple robberies (plural) and multiple convictions (plural) That could explain the longer prison sentence.

I do have a conflict-of-interest because I invested, significantly, into CXW (Corrections Corp Of America) and GEO (The Geo Group, Inc), but at the same time (not in this case), I would sympathize with a legitimate error.

Hi eno.

May I ask you a question please, your honest opinion about the name:
“Corrections Corp Of America”, and how it relates to the criminal in this case.

Question:
From our limited knowledge, which do you believe “corrected” the criminal more… The Corrections Corp, or his time out building a family and contributing to society… after serving eight years?

If what that video says is true…
“Their lobbyists work behind the scenes to defeat reforms”.
“They have an investment in making sure people fail”.

Should we not at least look at the possibly reforming that business model to instead reward early release of prisoners because of strong rehabilitation?

Released is released. His lawyer should argue a form of Double Jeopardy and get his client out of this second prison sentence.

There is surely nothing The Corrections Corp of Amerika wants more than for boneheaded opinions like you do the crime, you do the time to propagate. They are parasites.

Thank fuck my state has barred private prisons from operating within the state.

(And if it flattens the bottom line of folks like eno then even better.)

@Darth_Algar The States w/out private prisons merely ship their overflow prisoners to states w/ private prisons.

@Dan_Lyons

I could be mistake, but I believe by state law Illinois also forbids the transfer of its prisoners to other states.

@Darth_Algar Ah yes, Illinois, famous for such hellholes as Tamms Supermax Prison.

@Dan_Lyons

Which has exactly what to do with my point?

(BTW: Tamms has been closed for awhile now.)

Places with hellhole prisons like California’s San Quentin tend not to outsource their convicts out of State.

Illinois has other hellhole prisons aside from Tamms. .

@Dan_Lyons

That’s an odd thing to say considering that privately operated prisons tend to be among the worst.

@Darth_Algar Really. Have you been imprisoned in either kind?

@stanleybmanly: Maybe it was armed robbery, which Judges don’t look too kindly upon.

@Dan_Lyons

Have you been imprisoned at Tamms?

@Darth_Algar Hahaha

”Question dodging is the intentional avoidance of answering a question.

This may happen when the person questioned either does not know the answer and wants to avoid embarrassment, or when the person is being interrogated or questioned in debate, and wants to avoid giving a direct response.”

@Dan_Lyons

It’s not dodging the question. I know exactly where you’re going with that question and it’s a logical fallacy. I answer the question, “no”, and then you’ll say then I can’t know that one is worse that the other since I don’t have experience with ether*. So I ask you: have you been imprisoned at Tamms? If not then you can’t say it’s a hellhole, as you don’t have the experience to say one way or the other.

(*Of course now you’ll say that’s not what you were going to say.)

I’m sorry. @Darth_Algar. Perhaps somehow miraculously you can read minds through the internet. I am impressed my friend.
I don’t feel I need to be imprisoned in Tamms to know it is a hellhole. I am quite content to learn of this from the experience of others who were there.

You said, ”considering that privately operated prisons tend to be among the worst.” Once again I am curious if you know that from personal experience or like me you are referring to information from others.

I do think that there are many State run prisons that are hell on Earth. In Indiana near Muncie there is the Pendleton Correctional Facility.
In California there are many, San Quentin, Folsom, Camarillo (for the criminally insane).
Joliet and Tamms in Illinois. The list of State run hellhole prisons goes on and on.

No matter how bad are these privately run hellholes, they may equal yet not exceed the inhumanity of the State run institutions.

And the funny thing is that most people think this is a good thing, or are indifferent to it.

Cruel and Unusual punishment comes to mind.

@Dan_Lyons

Likewise I don’t feel I need to have been imprisoned in ether state-ran or privately-ran prisons to know that private prisons are frequently cited as having worse conditions on average than state-ran prisons.

Well at least you didn’t need to get snide about some law of the internet like godwin’s or charles or boyles law.
Have a nice day.

@Dan_Lyons

Ok.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

I have no opinion about the name. It relates to the prisoner because from what I read he was incarcerated in Colorado which happens to be a state where these private prisons are utilized.

Before you can start out building a family and contributing to society, you need to be corrected, otherwise you would be too dysfunctional to be a candidate for marriage or employment, so I would say the Corrections Corp “corrected” him more.

Either way, even if this guy is corrected, the damage he caused to many of his victims is irreversible which means he should never be allowed out of prison. How can this man be allowed to prosper and contribute, when he denied others that ability? Also, consider the post traumatic stress for his victims, the financial ruin, etc.

So strong rehabilitation means nothing when damage is irreversible.

@eno

The damage from robbing a video store is irreversible and warrants life imprisonment? Really?

Straw man. It was multiple robberies (plural) and multiple convictions (plural).

It depends on the damage of each case. I don’t have the fine details of each victim. What are their financial damages? Was the damage so bad that the video store had to close down? How is the prisoner going pay for the damages of all his victims when released, and how long will it take?

How will he fix the psychological damage? That is not always reversible.

Considering his shity history, it is safe to assume that prior to his arrest, he got away with a lot crimes as well. Does he remember those? Would he go find them and compensate? Contributing to society is not the same as contributing to the victims and reversing their damage.

More importantly, when mistakenly released, you can see the animalistic nature of this man.. He started a family instead of working to compensate the damages of his victims.

Ok, I did a quick search. It didn’t provide fine details but this is what I have for now.

Lima-Marin and another man were convicted in 2000 on multiple robbery, kidnapping and burglary charges in connection with two violent robberies of Aurora video stores when Lima-Marin was 20. In one assault, the pair ordered employees into a back room at gunpoint and another worker to the floor as they demanded money from a safe.Link

So we got multiple robberies, kidnapping, burglary, assaults and illegal guns.

This man didn’t even attempt to compensate back damages when he was released and working, but more importantly, we don’t have the details of how much financial and psychological damage was caused to the victims (present and future). The damage is irreversible. This man should never see the light of day.

Maybe if he became a millionaire he can compensate the financial damage, but he cannot compensate the suffering that his victims had to go through during financial ruin and of course you cannot compensate for psychological damage.

@eno

Not actually a straw man, but anyway….

I always thought the idea was that the convicted paid their debt to society via serving out their sentience. Since when did financial compensation to the victims factor into how much prison time they serve? Here’s an idea though: maybe those companies you’ve invested in, can compensate the victims since they’re profiting from the crime.

But he was released 90 years early which means he didn’t pay out his debt in full. 90 years early release isn’t even close to paying it up your debt. That is where compensation factors in to pick up the slack of the error of early release.

Irreversible damage cannot be paid back in full, hence the 98 year sentence.

Sure, but specifics of this case aside I’m getting the impression you feel anyone who commits such crimes should be put away for life. Although I do understand, you have a financial incentive in keeping people incarcerated for as long as possible.

No, I’m situational. Depends on the amount of crimes, the type of crimes, the severity of the damage, the total amount of damage, and the prevalence of such crimes.

I’m not a fan of corruption so my incentive does stop where corruption begins. Increasing prison sentences for offences is not a form of corruption. It makes perfect sense when calculating factors mentioned above. It just happens to be financially beneficial if it is increased and more people are incarcerated. The only reason it is beneficial is because I made a good investment as did the owners of the company who invested in the business as well as the state who decided to go private.

If you’re worried about remuneration to society or the victims of his crimes, fine him and have him do community service. Sending him to prison punishes society by forcing it to pay an exorbitant amount of money to house, feed, guard, offer medical services to, and clothe someone who can demonstrably be a functional member of society. It may line your pockets, but it doesn’t help anyone else.

How is community service an adequate form of compensation for the damages this man did to his victims?

How do you know, in his lifetime, he can compensate (financially), all of his victims?
How can he compensate for psychological damage?

How about a murder? How do you compensate for that?
Or the psychological damage of a molested child. How do you compensate for that?

So, it seems you’re thinking that the monetary expenses of society are more important than having justice for the victims.

Also, using your own argument, giving welfare to old, sick/disabled and poor people punishes society by forcing it to pay an exorbitant amount of money to house, feed, clothe and offer medical services to people who can simply be culled out of existence by nature.

“Justice” is by definition not for the victims. It’s for society. Sending him to prison doesn’t exactly change anything for his victims either, so I don’t even see what point you’re trying to make. If you’re so fascinated by compensation, you should be advocating for things like wergeld.

And social services exist precisely because they benefit society. With few exceptions, social services are usually orders of magnitude less costly to the pig state than prison. It also is spent on people who are theoretically still capable of being contributing members of society in other ways (e.g., taking care of children who would otherwise become wards of the state), or were during the the course of their lives.

And those victims live in society.

Of course it changes. When a rabid dog is locked up in a cage, do you not feel a sense of relief? Likewise, the prisoner is being punished by being in prison and he will be unable to do anymore harm to the victims or anyone else.

They don’t benefit society, though. They suck the life of it, like a parasite. The reason they get help is because they have no value. No value has no benefit. Society benefits much more if we stop helping these people because the money being wasted on them can be used to invest in something that has and produces greater value. The only one who qualifies has having some value is a working poor person, but is still a burden.

Actually, welfare is orders of magnitude more costly than prison. Link

Total Welfare spending (Fed, State, Local)—374.6 billion.

Total Prison spending (Fed, State, Local) – 80.4 billion.

Those children should not have been born in the first place. The welfare birthrate is 3x greater than those not on welfare. The reason is because the state provides more welfare to the parents for every newborn child.

Parents are responsible for children, not the states. If the parents were not receiving help, the kids wouldn’t live long enough to go to prison and parents wouldn’t be so quick to have children. That is why society will benefit much more if we allow nature to run its course with them.

@eno: stop changing the goalposts. We’re not talking about a rabid dog. We’re talking about a person who has strongly indicated he is not a particularly big threat to society anymore, so the only point of prison at this point is retributive punishment. And your numbers are a little stupid, considering orders of magnitude more people receive social services than are housed in prison.

Poor people have no value? That makes you sound like a frothing fascist. Do you get hard when you see pictures like this? Your fellow fascists thought those people had no value.

That is what I said, punishment. I have no problem with that and neither do the victims.

That makes you sound like a frothing fascist.

Sounds like you’re butthurt which explains the fallacious arguments. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Thanks for the chat.

You do realize even Godwin himself said Godwin’s law is not a fallacy, right? An appeal to the victims, however, is a fallacy. Another fallacy is the belief we should ignore fascist opinions when see them because Godwin said so.

But it’s funny when butthert people accuse you have being butthert and then bury their butts faces in the sand.

Godwin’s law has nothing to do with fallacy. It simply states as a conversation progresses, it becomes inevitable that someone will eventually be compared to fascists.

The reason I linked that to you is because you no longer provide value to this conversation, therefore, I dismissed you.

The fallacy I was referring to is your false connection between lack of value and systematic extermination. There is a difference between artificial selection (part of facism) and natural selection (social darwinism). Also, facism is authoritarian, social darwinism is not. I’m in favor of the latter, not the former, hence, calling me a fascist is a fallacious argument.

Furthermore, instead of providing a logical counter-argument for my argument (poor and sick people have no value), you decided to just call me a fascist, which means, you have nothing intelligent to say. It also means you agree. It is the truth that just makes you really butthurt. To no surprise, you continue with more vague statements an appeal to the victims without explaining its fallacious nature.

So, you complain about authoritarianism on one hand, while profiting from an authoritarian institution on the other? Yeah, someone with a profit motive to demand onerous prison sentences really loves freedom.

And what is wrong with a legitimate comparison to fascists? Also, your reading comprehension blows.* I said de-valuing human beings makes you sound like a frothing fascist, which it does. I didn’t say you were a fascist. That said, you do keep providing evidence that could be a fascist with each new post your diarrhea out. Social Darwinism is only a veil used to excuse authoritarian tendencies. There is nothing “natural” about it, and you can only be for it selectively at most. Why? Reminder: you prefer prison sentences, which line your pocket, to letting society and nature work it out.

* Godwin actually refers to “Hitler or the Nazis,” and says nothing about fascists. I guess you didn’t read it

I’m not an absolutist which means I’m not in favor of anarchy and don’t like big governments either. I have no problem with prisons because prisons make sure that freedom is protected and punishment is handed down to criminals.

@bolwerk wrote I didn’t say you were a fascist.

Sure you did…

@bolwerk wrote Your fellow fascists thought….

There you go^^. Fellow: a person in the same position, involved in the same activity, or otherwise associated with another.

You’ll have to explain to me how not forcing someone to pay for someone elses food, clothes, housing and medical treatment is authoritarian. That sounds like freedom to me.

Hitler/Nazis were fascists..

Prisons make sure that freedom is protected? That’s some woolly logic if I’ve ever heard it.

Sure, the rabid dog “human” stays in a cage. He is in the cage because he violated the personal freedom granted to others, hence, prison makes sure that freedom is protected.

Uh-huh.

@bolwerk

I just noticed you didn’t say de-valuing anywhere. You just sarcastically asked if poor people had value and then called me a fascist.

Nothing in my writing indicates that I was devaluing because being poor means there is no value, unless you’re working poor (some value), or deliberately in poverty like Grigori Perelman. You cannot devalue what has no value. Writing Harry Potter books while on welfare doesn’t count as value. The world could have survived without Harry Potter if nature culled out the author. Cherry picking an exception won’t change that either. Let alone, the immense inefficiency of feeding a bunch of no value members of society for countless generations because one of them might have some value one day.

@eno: I realize abstract thought isn’t your strong suit, but I described de-valuing. I mentioned you thinking poor people have no value, and even linked to some porn for you.

Sorry, but your contention that people who don’t fit your narrow criteria for having “value” is chauvinist and, well, kinda fascist. As for your second paragraph, I’ll just leave it there on the floor like the turd it is.

Can’t devalue what has no value (logic 101). Not your strong suit, I know.

Well, like I said earlier, since you reduced this conversation to labeling me with various terms instead actually replying to arguments or offering something interesting, you no longer have any value for this discussion. You’re dismissed, boy.

Why do Randroid authoritarians always think they’re logicians? You aren’t a logician. You haven’t made a coherent argument. You made an assertion, and it sounds like this to an adult: “I don’t value poor people and you shouldn’t either, fag.” You’re just trying to rationalize your antisocial beliefs by claiming they’re logical.

I understand you’re in pain, but don’t worry, there are some good pain relievers. link

There is nothing wrong with sending this man back to prison. The wrong part is the punishment. The way I feel about prison is all long-term prison sentences should be given the death penalty, including this man – Lima. The reason is because it is an unnecessary financial burden for society. This man deserves punishment, but punishment in the form of a death penalty is more cost-effective.

Chain-gangs should be reinstated for use on everyone else – those who have shorter term sentences. At least this way, not all of the tax money is going to waste since the prisoners will be forced to work for free, at gunpoint, and that will contribute back to society.

@sensin “but punishment in the form of a death penalty is more cost-effective”

The death penalty is the polar opposite of cost-effective.

Taking care of a prisoner for 90 years is less expensive than execution? Where did you read that? You have a link to that information?

Then that means the type of execution needs to change. Maybe a computerized guillotine.

Nevermind, I googled it. You’re talking about the expenses of the trial. I thought you were saying the actual physical process of execution is that much more expensive.

In that case, life without parole is more cost-effective. Lock his ass up.

What am I poorly informed about? Educate me, please.

Anyone who shares the same opinion with eno is just a cloned account of eno? Seems legit.

I’m not in favor of privatization of the prison system.

@bolwerk

Apply the cream 3 times a day for faster results.

@eno: still waiting to hear some of that vaunted “logic”!

You mean someone on a message board “follows” other people with similar views? Stop the fucking presses! This is some seriously groundbreaking shit here!

Ok.

This is all very fascinating, I can assure you gentlemen.

For the record, I lean right, not left. I identify as mutualist-anarchist these days, which is generally regarded as slightly right of centre, somewhere between anarchosyndicalism and individualist/egoist-anarchism.

Furthermore, I happen to know that Bolwerk and Kropotkin are two different people because I know both of them.

[mod says] All accusations of trolling have been removed as flamebait. Let’s try to steer the conversation back to the original question; otherwise, this thread may be subject to being closed.