How do you behave in a church that is not your own?

I once went to church with my first husbands uncle and family. I forgot how strict United Pentecostals were! I was wearing pants, had short hair and a wedding ring. When they started dancing and praying they came after us like chickens with their heads cut off! Everyone wanted to lay hands on us and pray for our salvation.
Now I try to get the dress code before I go!
I don’t usually kneel in a Catholic Church and I don’t participate in communion.
I’ve wanted to check out an Orthodox Church but it seems really complicated to figure out what to do.

I play along. The only time I ever go to a church these days is for a wedding or a funeral service. On those occasions, I am there to support someone I care about (either by celebrating or mourning with them). No sense in making a scene.

I participate in those rituals which do not conflict with my beliefs. I sit quietly for those that do not. I would never show disrespect to a different congregation or officiant.

@marinelife Good point. One thing I don’t do is take communion, not least because many churches don’t want you to do so if you aren’t a member of their sect.

I sit quietly, listen, stand when asked, and bow my head during prayer. Then I leave.

I’ve only ever been to Baptist and non-denominational Christian churches. No kneeling, talking in tongues, etc. I don’t put money in the offering plate and I don’t participate in the stale snack communion even though I’ve been baptized and technically could, but I definitely don’t scowl, scoff, or roll my eyes.

:D!

Gosh, I haven’t been to church in soooo long.

I’ve been to a Catholic church, most recently for my Mother’s funderal. I did the kneel and pray and kneel and pray thing, even though I think it’s dumb. Not sure if I’m allowed to take communion because I’m not Catholic, so I passed.

When I was a believer I attended a Pentecostal Church for many years. I passed on things like speaking in tongues and what not, even though it was my home church. Speaking in tongues was embarrassing to me.

As an atheist I’m usually in someone else’s house of worship during a wedding, I sit or kneel when they do, I stand when they do, I sing when they do, I do nothing when they collectively pray, just wait till they’re done. It’s not that hard. A few friends have been worried though that I might burst into flames as I enter the church/synagogue/mosque

I would keep my eye out for snakes I’m not really kidding in this part of the country….

I don’t think weddings or funerals really count. I probably have not been in a church for service in more than a decade.

I am very much “when in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

I am Jewish and an atheist and when in other churches I sit and stand when appropriate, but I never kneel. I don’t participate much, because I am unfamiliar with the rituals. Most often I am in a Catholic church if I am in any church, they don’t want non-Catholics taking communion anyway. People around me all know what to say back to the Priest when the Priest says certain things, I have no idea what to say. It can be a little disconcerting.

Some churches have you shake hands with people around you. It makes me feel a little odd, but I do it. In any other setting I shake hands, but in church it feels unusual to me. It’s because it is just a shake and a smile, and no continued conversation in that moment.

During ceremonies like weddings I like when the Minister/Rabbi/Priest explains what is going on if it is not obvious to people who are not of that religion. My Rabbi explained what the Hebrew prayers meant, and explained stepping on the glass and what it represents. I went to a Greek Orthodox church where they explained why the bride and groom walk around in circles. I went to an Episcopal funeral service and the booklet we were given explained a lot and so did the Preist. I like the acknowledgement that the person or people being honored that day might have friends and family not of that faith. It makes me feel welcomed and comfortable. It makes me feel as though I can participate or not as I want and it is understood as not being rude.

I always ask what is appropriate to wear. I asked my Rabbi if I could wear a dress off the shoulder for my wedding. If he felt it was innapropriate I would have worn a different dress. I do the same when I attend a wedding that is in a place of worship. My wedding was in a hotel, but I still asked.

I don’t go into other people’s places of worship.

I went to a Pentecostal gathering once. The touching on the forehead (with a smack) and then the person falling backwards into the arms of another was humorous, but the speaking in tongues made me burst out into laughter.
It was just so contrived and obviously staged.

No, I never returned.

The last time was a Catholic funeral. I followed through with every step of it. I have way to much respect for anyone that I like that much to do anything less. And I loved the ceremony.

@Dan_Lyons When “Pentecostal” meets “tabernacle” beware.

I was myself at a baptist church and I got the demons removed from me twice.

@ARE_you_kidding_me When I burst out laughing I just couldn’t help myself. But then I am the only one in a crowded San Francisco movie theater to burst out into laughter when the girl’s head spun around on her neck and she vomited projectile pea soup in “The Exorcist” back in 74.

I remain respectfully quiet.

The only thing I do differently than Catholics is that I don’t genuflect.

I go to Catholic Masses occasionally when there’s some event going on in my family. I don’t say anything, but I stand and sit and kneel and what not. Not everyone in my family knows I’m not Catholic so I don’t make it too obvious. I shake hands when the peace offering happens. I definitely don’t receive the Eucharist either, because that’d be disrespectful. Having been going to Catholic Masses my whole childhood, I am ace at strategically placing myself where I’ll be last of my family in the Eucharist line so that nobody sees me not receive communion. It’s pretty stressful because I don’t want anyone to notice or talk to me about my lack of faith.

In church, if I must go for some reason, I usually sit and stand with everyone else, but I generally refuse to say prayers or worship in any way. I generally won’t pick up Bibles or prayer books. I’ve gone so far as to wear a yarmulke at Bar/Bat Mitzvahs, but generally didn’t sing or anything. I behave similarly with other forms of secular worship, like patriotic/national functions (e.g., anthems); I won’t say a pledge or put my hand over my heart or swear on a Bible/lawbook or any bullshit like that.

Ritual is pointless for anti-hierarchical, anti-authoritarian atheist. But I don’t see any point in being rude to participants either.

When in Rome. I usually go to a church to enjoy the beauty and solitude. I like old synagogues, the ones in Europe, and cathedrals. I like how these places smell, and the quiet. And they are pretty.

The last one I went to was the cathedral in Merida, on the Yucatan. Jesus, half the gold they dug out of the New World is in that place. The Mexicans claim it is the oldest cathedral in the Americas. Art, relics, quiet, Frankincense and Myrrh in the air. The night before I was atop another temple a few miles away, the Uxmal ruins, part of the Chichen Itza complex, contemplating the skies the night the world was supposed to end.

My Log for late December, 2012 reads:
Acquired an absolutely lovely passenger/aspiring first mate at KW and delivered her to a little yoga clinic in Celestún around sunset the Friday those kids were murdered in Newtown, CT. Was on top of Uxmal temple the night the world was supposed to end. Went to a beautiful Christmas eve midnight mass for the first time in years at the old cathedral in Merida… …really strange. This trip started with a Buddhist lady expat out of KW who took me straight to the Yucatan interior in her Jeep so we could lay at the top of a Mayan temple under the stars, then she dragged my sorry, unrepentant ass to Midnight Mass a few days later, and now I have a seriously radical priest on board. We’re headed for Montserrat… ..a very interesting trip. And no drunks. So nice…

If there’s a service going on, I mimic the people around me. I show respect for the things that are important to these people. I also stand at attention during national anthems when I’m the foreigner and it’s their flag and country. They appreciate it, and it cost me nothing.

Try not to pinch the collection money, hog the sandwiches, spill your tea on other members and keep in tunes with the hymes.

I, seriously, cannot remember the last time I was in a church. I think it was the early 80’s with some long dead ancient family members for a Christmas eve service /caroling at a Methodist church. The old family members went to this little Methodist Church where they had a stained glass window donated in memory of my grandmother.
I like Hymns and Christmas carols so I just sang along and I didn’t burst into flame being an atheist myself. lol

Personally I’d have liked to have been in some rockin’ southern baptist church. I LOVE southern gospel music.

With curiosity and respect, just as I would expect others to have in my place of worship.

No curiosity here ,just respect. (Assuming I’m in a Christian House of Worship)

My S/O is a cat-licker Catholic, and I’m agnostic. I do what I please within the boundaries of a place of worship. They kneel? I sit. They bow heads? If I want to look around, I do, because anyone I make eye contact with is doing the same – maybe a kindred spirit. Be respectful of the traditions (yeah, okay, I’ll hold hands).
My father in law once asked me if I wanted to say the blessing. I declined, not knowing if he thought he was excluding me, if he thought I’d be so odd that I’d have to go away, or if he thought I would pray a prayer that would be a knee-slapper till the day he died. (Farm folk. Spilt of the Earth.)

Whatever everyone else is doing. I try to be polite.

I am quiet and respectful of others beliefs. When they pray, I pray to my God, and ask Him to guide them.

@filmfann “When they pray, I pray to my God, and ask Him to guide them.”

That’s not respectful. That’s condescending.

@dappled_leaves, I think it’s actually a good thing. Praying for people (in this case), no matter who you’re praying to, is an act of love. If you genuinely believe that your God is the right one, you’d want others to go to heaven as well.

I do not interrupt their services. I disagree. It is not condescending.

Since prayers occur “in the mind,” @filmfann has the right to pray to whomever he wants to and think/discuss/ask for whatever he wants. To tell him otherwise is akin to trying to tell someone what they can and cannot think and feel. Unless he goes around saying “I prayed for you and asked God to guide you” then what he does in his mind is really nobody’s business.

@Darth_Algar What religion are you?

@bolwerk I never thought about the yarmulke, but I wonder if people have a problem wearing it? I think every Jewish wedding I have been to, except my cousin’s) has been in a hotel or some other event place. I have no idea if everyone wore a yarmulke at my cousin’s wedding, I assume they did in the temple, and all the other weddings it would not matter. We made yarmulkes for my wedding with the date and our names inside, but I don’t think most of the men wore them, which is fine with me. Had we been in a temple I would have wanted them to out of respect, just like I cover my shoulders and knees if that is the dress code in a place of worship. However, I can see how someone might not want to. I never thought about it.

@dxs It seems like going to places of worship that are not Catholic would be less stressful for you. I was at a synagogue last week. I was taking a tour of the third oldest temple in America in Savannah. In the museum they had a photo of girls getting confirmed and I had never heard of confirmation for Jews and I am Jewish. I asked about it, and one of the women taking the tour was shocked I never heard of it. For a moment I got that same uncomfortable feeling I used to get when I was younger, when I didn’t know what was going n or didn’t participate in my own religion when the people around me do. I guess maybe that is smilar to your experience. At least when you are in Catholic church you know what is going on.

@Dutchess_III Why are you assuming a Christian church? Weren’t you raised Christian? Isn’t that familiar to you? What if you are in a mosque or synagogue? I guess when I saw this question I did not think of my own religion whether I practice it or not, but I think for Jewish people that is different. Many of us do things in our religion out of tradition and it doesn’t matter that we are atheists. Probably half the people in reformed congregations are atheists.

I tried ‘doing what everyone else is doing’ once, but it’s impossible to carry off in a church with a lot of kneeling and/or ritual. Ultimately it just makes a mockery and is distracting.

I say be as unobtrusive as possible, and respect the wishes of whomever you are there to celebrate.

Let me rephrase: @Pachy answered “With curiosity and respect, ”
I said I would show respect, but no curiosity, if it was a Christian house of worship, because I pretty much know what each Christian faction expects.
If it was a Jewish ceremony, or a Hindu ceremony I would be curious as well as respectful.

@JLeslie

Atheist-Buddhist. Why?

@JLeslie: It didn’t bother me, except my hair was so long I had trouble keeping it on. I don’t see it as inherently worshipful, so wearing it isn’t a profession of faith like wearing a cross would be.

@JLeslie I feel like it’s easy at a Catholic ritual because the rite is so traditional that there’s hardly any member involvement, making it easy to just sit there and keep a low profile. Sure I can still remember how to recite the whole Nicene Creed verbatim like how I did as a kid, but it doesn’t mean the same thing it used to mean, so why bother? What stresses me out is other people’s discovery of my outcasting. The memories that it brings back aren’t the most pleasant, either.
Perhaps a ritual that isn’t for the Abrahamic God would be a better environment for me.

@Darth_Algar I was just wondering if it was a requirement of your faith not to go into other places of worship, or if you just don’t go for your own reasons. I’ve been told Jewish people are not supposed to go into other places of worship, which might explain why my husband’s father’s side did not go to his sister’s Catholic wedding at the church, but they showed up at the reception. I don’t know if that was their reason, or that they just dissapproves of the marriage (she was raised Catholic herself) or if they are just obnoxious.

@JLeslie

Nah, I just simply have no reason to go to anyone’s church. If invited I politely decline. As far as other ceremonies such as weddings, I’m not sure that I’ve ever attended a wedding that was held in a church.

Kind of an aside, but Catholic rites kind of creep me out. My sister arranged my Mom’s funeral. My sister converted to Catholicism when she married her husband. Mom was raised Catholic, but she walked away from the church when we were little because they were stupid. Well, for some reason my sister went with a Catholic ceremony. The priest was walking around mumbling to himself and waving a metal container of incense all over the place. It was so….pagan-seeming to me. Very unemotional, too, like it had nothing to do with Mom personally. Everyone was left a little confused.

@jca No one has said that @filmfann does not have the right (read: freedom) to pray to whomever he chooses. They have said that it is not right (read: good) for him to do so in a condescending manner. I have the right/freedom to call someone on the street a “filthy whore-bitch” at random. That doesn’t mean it would be right/good for me to do so. In fact, I think it would be wrong of me to say such a thing (and rather stupid, too). As such, the question of whether or not @filmfann has the right to pray as he does in no way determines whether or not it is condescending that he does so.

Surely it in part rests on exactly what @filmfann means when he says that he asks God to guide others. If he’s thinking, “Hey God, how about these stupid pagans, eh? Wanna help ‘em see the light?” then I think it would be condescending. If, on the other hand, he’s thinking, “Hey God, it’s me @filmfann. These are some cool people that I care about, so do you think you could watch over them?” then I think it would not be condescending. To the extent that I know @filmfann, I’m pretty confident that he’s thinking the latter rather than the former. But I’ve meet enough people who think the former to understand why not everyone was comfortable with @filmfann‘s choice of words.

@Dutchess_III

Well, Catholicism was created by the Romans as a way to sell Christianity to a pagan people.

@SavoirFaire I think @filmfann is just being a Christian. It doesn’t bother me in the least if someone who is visiting someone else’s church chooses to pray to their own God while in that place of worship. People are free to pray at any time anywhere, and his thoughts are his own. His intention in his own mind is from a place of goodness, I truly believe that, and knowing @filmfann through fluther, he seems like a very accepting, nonjudgmental person. It doesn’t change that for some people who are not Christian it feels condescending, unnaccepting, and offensive that our religion and beliefs are not good enough for them or for God under their own belief system. It is an unsolvable problem from what I can tell. I don’t try to analyze it or solve it much anymore. It just is. People sit in their own churches every day and their minds wonder and they don’t pray when told to and some girl is flirting with some guy, and a parent is distracted by their child, etc, etc. I don’t worry about what people are thinking all too ften as long as they are not planning on harming anyone or trying to control others.

@SavoirFaire: Calling someone a name is doing so in a way that they and others hear it and thus, are aware it’s being done and hurtful to them. What someone does “in their head” is really nobody’s business and if he didn’t tell us here, now that he did it, nobody would even know. Who knows what he says in his conversation to God and who cares? We can’t make an assumption about what he is thinking (negative things about these stupid people, for example). Can you control it? Can I? No.

@SavoirFaire Yeah…he was thinking, not praying out loud. Plus I think he made the comment tongue in cheek.

@JLeslie If you actually read what I wrote, you’ll see that I was defending @filmfann, not criticizing him.

@jca Saying that it’s nobody’s business is just a way of saying that he has the right to do it. So really, that’s no response to the point I made. People can have bad thoughts, even if it’s nobody else’s business what they are. In any case, @filmfann did make his opinion public when he wrote it out for all of us to see. Now that he’s done that, the rest of us do get to say what we think of his thought process. I chose to defend him because I think he’s a good guy. But if he was being condescending in his thoughts, that would speak to something negative in his character—even if we never knew it.

@Dutchess_III See my response to @jca. I didn’t say his thought process was rude (which requires an outward behavior of some sort). What I considered was the possibility—suggested by others—that it was condescending (condescension being something that can be done entirely within one’s own head since it is primarily an attitude). In any case, I defended @filmfann on the grounds that I doubt his inner thoughts would betray anything negative about his character—a point that everyone seems to have missed so far.

@SavoirFaire Yes, I caught that.

I’m not sure why this has become a conversation about whether @filmfann is a good guy. Of course he is a good guy. The fact that he wants to save the souls of others shows that he is a good guy.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that his prayers, in the context in which he described them, are condescending.

Condescenscion: having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.

To sit in a person’s church, and wilfully meditate on the misguidedness of that person’s faith, with the express aim and hope of changing that person’s faith… that is to have a feeling of patronizing superiority.

Yes, it comes from a place of generosity; I don’t dispute that. But it is not respectful.

Someone should whip @filmfann for thinking his private thoughts! Bad boy, @filmfann, bad boy!

Hey, when I do yoga I don’t OM. I say my own prayer. I guess I’m in the same awful boat as @filmfann. At least we’re not alone!

@JLeslie If you caught it (and understood it), then it is unclear why you responded to me as if I were saying otherwise. You addressed your comment to me as if it were an objection, which makes no sense given what I was actually saying.

@dappled_leaves Like I’ve already said, it’s only condescending if we interpret his remarks in a particular way. As for why the discussion—or at least one thread of it—has become about him, it’s because you made it about him here.

@SavoirFaire “As for why the discussion – or at least one thread of it – has become about him…”

I did not question that.

@dappled_leaves Fair enough. But what you did ask is why it became a question of whether or not @filmfann is a good guy (which is still making it about him in virtue of making it about an aspect of him). In any case, the answer is the same: you made it an issue by accusing him of being condescending (which would cut into the goodness of his character).

I think we should just execute @filmfann and be done with it! @filmfann Come stand in the middle of this heah Jelly Circle….

@SavoirFaire I think there is a world of difference between a good person and a good action. Hence my surprise.

I responded to a comment that he made. Several other people also responded to that comment and to mine. I’m not sure why someone needs to be “blamed” for the ensuing discussion.

@dappled_leaves Of course there’s a difference. But my point was that I doubt @filmfann is being condescending. It’s not condescending for a theist to ask God to help people. So on the assumption that’s all he meant—and that he perhaps worded it poorly—I’m suggesting that his actions are probably not bad. That he has proven to be himself of good character in the past is part of my justification for the assumption (since I obviously cannot read his mind). And I’m not blaming you for the ensuing discussion. I’m just suggesting that the person who initiated it shouldn’t act surprised when it continues.

@SavoirFaire Again, I am not interested in a discussion of @filmfann‘s character, so I won’t address that. I did not express surprise that the discussion continued.

I don’t think condescension is a particularly conscious thing. Does anyone know they are acting condescendingly while they do it? I should think that under any circumstance in which it occurs, the person acting condescendingly thinks they are acting rightly.

Now I just feel left out because I haven’t gotten to comment using @filmfann yet!

I think we executed him @ibstubro. So it’s all good.

Have we figured out if @filmfann is a good guy or not?

@filmfann is an arrogant ass. He is a sinner. His belief in a God is obviously a sign of insecurity and poor toilet training. He also swears way too fucking much. He is not a good example.

@SavoirFaire I was just saying that I agree with you, but it doesn’t change that some people will feel no matter how good the intention that when a religious person wants someone to convert it doesn’t feel good. The person may have good intentions, but it is not received that way. It used to bother me more, but now that I understand better that it is just how some religions are and I should not take it personally, but it used to feel very personal to me.

@Judi That is not the same. I defend @filmfann, but not saying OM is not the same as hoping the Jews in the Synagogue find their way to Jesus while you sit there and watch your best friend’s daughter get married by the rabbi. That’s what picture stirs in my head when I read things like that, and then I have to just recognize it doesn’t matter, because it all comes from a good place.

“not saying OM is not the same as hoping the Jews in the Synagogue find their way to Jesus while you sit there and watch your best friend’s daughter get married by the rabbi.”

This is exactly what I’ve been saying. Why do people have to work at reading more into a post than is there?

@dappled_leaves What religion were you raised in and what religion are you now?

@filmfann It has nothing, zero, to do with your belief in God. I realize it probably feels that way, because your belief in God also dictates to bring others to Jesus, but when a Jewish person feels offended, they are not offended by your strong belief in God, they are offended because you feel God does not see them as good enough to get into heaven. Jews don’t think that about Christians, so it is difficult for us, and difficult for others I guess too. I know Christians belief is basically married to a belief that helping others find the path to Christ as their savior is a loving thing to pray for, so since Jesus is God, then it is easy to see why you might feel attacked by your belief in God, but it is not the intention. That’s the thing, your intention is not how it feels to the person not interested in converting and our intention is somewhat misunderstood by you when we push back.

When I am in someone else’s place of worship I am not thinking they would be better off as atheists or Jews. It never occurs to me. I am there for them and their ceremony, whether it be a regular mass or an event like a baptism or wedding.

@JLeslie I was raised without any formal religion, spent some years as an evangelical Christian, and am now atheist.

You guys! You are blowing this WAY out of proportion. I personally think @filmfann was just being fatuous. Everyone around him may be praying for all those poor sinners who aren’t Catholic (or whatever,) and they’re all going to hell because they’re not Catholic, and @filmfann just quietly prays the same thing to himself, that they will find their way to HIS one true God. He was being ironic or sarcastic or whatever you’d want to call it. He was NOT being condescending.

@Dutchess_III Good point. I hadn’t thought of it exactly in that way.

@dappled_leaves If you’re not interested in a discussion of @filmfann‘s character, then you shouldn’t have brought it up. Because the only way you would be justified in making the leap from his original comment to your judgment that his actions are condescending is by way of an inference involving his character. Otherwise, you should have interpreted it the way I did (as a poor way of wording a non-condescending thought process). So when you complain about people reading too much into a post, start with the person in the mirror.

Alternatively, we could just go with @Dutchess_III‘s explanation, in which @filmfann‘s comment was a joke (which, for the record, still means it isn’t condescending).

As for condescension itself, I think it can be done both consciously and unconsciously. But neither contradicts my claim, which was that it can be done internally/mentally. That something is an internal action does not determine whether it is conscious or unconscious.

Not having a religion that I adhere to all churches are not my own but when the occasion arises and I am in one I try to be respectful of the beliefs of the church members. I stand when they stand, sit when they sit, reflect silently when they pray and sing (I don’t sing, my voice sounds like a braying donkey with a severe throat condition), shake hands with members when introduced, keep my own beliefs and ideas to myself mumbling only platitudes when asked, and try not to fart at least not out loud.

That can be difficult to follow in some churches, @rojo. Catholics do all that kneeling and genuflecting.

Yeah, my wife was one for many, many years only concession was when they knelt, I sat. Went there more than once.

When in Rome…

And don’t they have ‘call and response’ at weddings, @rojo?

I’ve come to think there are three options at a foreign religious celebration. Walking, standing and sitting. I don’t worry about speaking, moving, singing, praying or closing my eyes. If they say, “Now let us bow our heads”, I do.