Why is open carry of firearms so controversial?

It’s controversial because uneducated people are of the impression that registered gun owners commit gun crimes. Reality strikes quickly when they ban guns (Detroit) and as a result gun crimes soar.

Gee… Maybe criminals won’t obey the gun laws? Ya think?

An armed society is a polite society.

I’ve made that argument also that with open carry at least you know the person is packing and you can choose whether to leave the presence of the person if it makes you uncomfortable. I think that touches on why people don’t like open carry, guns make them uncomfortable. I do believe the more people see guns and see the people around them carrying guns, the more likely we will see even more guns. People tend to become their community and get desensitized regarding just about everything, and so a lot of people don’t like the idea of a trend towards even more gun ownership.

Incidentally… Washington DC has the highest murder rate in the country and the strictest gun laws in the nation with the lowest gun ownership. Hey, let’s advertise to all the criminals that an entire city is unarmed! What could possibly go wrong?

Because they feel their right to open carry a weapon trumps my right to also open carry a weapon that is trained on them to keep from pointing their gun at me. And if I feel threatened, then I should be legally permitted to fire at them and kill them without any criminal liability, because in this country I should be able to kill first without question if I feel threatened.

Guns are tools, but they are tools to KILL. Anything else they are supposedly used for is a side benefit, but not the designed use of the gun.

And also, men who openly carry weapons are expressing their sexual insecurity. Guns are used by many men as a substitute masturbatory tool. They just love stroking that long barrel.

A gun dealer’s viewpoint:

“. . . The point is, is that people should be able to eat their burritos in peace without a bunch of neck beards carrying ARs and AKs around. And just recently, they invaded a Target store. Now I’m gonna get a lot of flack for this, I get it, but here’s the thing: Open Carry Tarrant County is like the demonic offspring of Westboro Baptist Church and Boko Haram.”

http://bit.ly/GunDealerBlastsOpenCarryLunatics

Speaking as a non-American, I don’t share any of the assumptions you state in your opening remarks. I can’t understand why Americans feel safer around guns, whether openly carried or concealed. You live in a nation that is plagued by an unreasonable amount of gun violence. And you have an unreasonable ease with guns. To everyone outside of America, this is a no-brainer. We continue to be utterly baffled by how slow your country is to recognize and act on the problem.

@DWW25921 Strict gun laws does not necessarily translate to people can’t get a gun legally. There are many examples of states and countries with extremely strict gun laws that have very low gun crime. Everyone picks and chooses whatever state or country fits what they want it to regarding gun laws. Probably what affects gun crime more than anything is the culture and no one really looks at that.

I have lived in places where no one talked about guns, it was not part of the culture at all, and places where guns were very much a part of the culture and specifically their schtick was they need a gun for protection (against bad people) and an overtone of guns being a part of being American. Those cities I actually get it having lived there. It is probably almost impossible to get the guns out of the bad people’s hands because it is so much a part of the culture there. The shame is, too bad it ever got like that. People who have lived in gun cities their whole lives have no idea how different it can be and vice versa. Those cities grew up differnelty. This is not the same as a man out west or places like Alsaka who lives in the mountains and have a gun on him because he is out in the wild often. His carry is not because he thinks criminals are around him all the time, but rather a part of life when in the wild.

Moreover, countries that have extremely high gun ownership and very low gun crime usually have extremely strict gun laws. Switzerland is often cited, but they have strict gun laws.

Open carry is legal in Ohio, but you can get hit with misdemeanor inciting panic. People get pretty squirmy seeing someone downtown with a long gun. Not so much with a holstered handguns, but gome one is sure to freak and call 911.

@majorrich Similarly, a visible gun in the NYC subway is unfathomable to me.

Just plain unwise to do.

Because the anti-gunners will think it’s a wild west type thing.
You should see the hoops I have to jump through to own and keep a hand gun in Canada.

I have seen the personality change that happens when some assholes begin packing.
I don’t trust anyone carrying a weapon.

Just imagine I wanted to carry a machete everywhere, you know, just in case. Would you want to stand next to me in the grocery store? What would your reaction be if I’m strolling in front of your house? How about a few practice swings, just so you know I’m comfortable with it?

People have forgotten that guns are weapons and not some special hobby. Some people, not all. Some people respect guns as a weapon and respect other people enough to not show the weapon off in inappropriate places. Those people have my respect and I’d rather just not know they have a gun 99% of the time.

@SQUEEKY2 Well, look at your gun related crime vs the US. Assuming the stats here are more or less accurate.

Old ladies waiting for subway trains is an argument for the open carrying of Glocks? Honestly I just don’t get it.

Can I open-carry a rapier? What if I call it a tool and say I’m using it to cut my cheeseburger?

I swear I only use my crossbow to retrieve things from high shelves.

It kind of worries me that I live in a society that feels it needs a consistent threat of gun violence in order to maintain the peace. Like we’re all just crazy people on the edge of rape and pillage and the only thing stopping us is a thin blue line of random people who may or may not have a pea-shooter in their pockets.

As far as I can tell, open carry isn’t actually all that controversial. It’s people flaunting that right for attention that has been generating criticism.

@Seek Where I live, it is legal to open carry any weapon that it is legal to own. That includes swords.

Note to self: Build portable trebuchet. Lay seige to WalMart.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/mplvs5/keep-gun-and-carry-on

Because it’s friggin creepy when someone shows off their handgun in everyday, familiar, non-gun related, apparently safe places. Suddenly there’s the overt presence of this incredibly dangerous thing and I go into instant wary mode, and it’s like there’s this whole level of potential crazy going on in the other person’s mind that I hadn’t realized was there before I noticed their gun. Are they suspicious of everyone? Of me? Am I making a possibly threatening move at any time? Is my scary-looking dog’s friendliness being read as potential aggression? I need to keep an eye on that person until I’m safely away. So maybe it’s just my perspective, but open carrying feels like the worst kind of attention-getting: overt display of power by instigation of fear.

Just to add for context: I love shooting; guns are fun – but carrying in public, open or concealed, is unnecessary, very weird, and an invitation to major disaster.

It’s about how we are to be defined as a society. Our spectacular firearms casualty rate should demonstrate the consequences of living in a shooting gallery. It’s one thing to claim that the horrific homicide statistics are the necessary price for one of our cherished “freedoms”. But the notion that the death rate will fall if more guns are out on the streets defies common sense. The accelerating slaughter in the country isn’t due to the fact that too few “good” people are totin. The problem lies with the statistic that there are already 88 guns per every 100 people in this country. Sure, any criminal can find a gun. So can any toddler, psychopath, or depressed soul with suicidal tendencies. It’s already too late to prevent the proliferation of guns. We’re in for exciting times. The revival of frontier values in a post industrial America should guarantee the rest of the world some first class entertainment.

And keep in mind this debate is due to idiots carrying a AR-15 into Burger King. It isn’t about safety, it is basically trolling the real world.

Simple:

People’s tendency to react emotionally to that which they do not understand.

^^ The same could be said of a woman smirking topless in public with “still not asking for it” written on her chest.

Both are political statements.

I’m sorry, do exposed tits present a threat to your life?

@SecondHandStoke ”^ The same could be said of a woman smirking topless in public with “still not asking for it” written on her chest.”

Really now…..

I was under the impression that open carry laws were instituted when the Black Panthers decided to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. In the 60’s people were afraid of black men carrying guns around.
To be honest, I don’t remember where I heard that. It may have been the Malcom X movie.

The constant threat of violence is the last resort for the most uncivilized. Nothing polite about it.

@cazzie Like this :P

Oh, wow. Exposed breasts = carrying loaded weapons in crowded public places. Who knew I had such power under my shirt! I’m going to use them so much more for intimidation purposes. I just wish they a bigger caliber and automatic. Now, how many rounds are the clips I need?

Yes @El_Cadejo

Both are political statements made for a matter of principle.

@ @Seek where the firearm is carried on the person does not itself constitute a threat to my life.

Imagine how sane the firearm conversation would be if the subject of discussion could be limited to only those that understand the thing in question.

@JLeslie I wouldn’t use Switzerland as a comparison because they have compulsory military service for all citizens. It’s a little different when they’ve all been professionally trained. That’s really not a bad idea but doesn’t reflect the situation here in the USA. You are right they have strict regulations. My uncle has visited there many times and they take national defense very seriously. Here in the US it’s more about personal security.

@ibstubro:

Visibly packing or not. I’d say it’s safe to assume that one that is open carrying is less likely to be messed with.

However one really shouldn’t assume much about anyone.

Someone could be insane, someone could be a martial arts expert or just on PCP.

The lesson? When someone crosses that line and chooses to fuck with someone else one cannot be certain of what might happen to one as a result.

However, that NRA decal on my parent’s front door is a decent indicator that a would be intruder would be wise to visit next door instead.

I remember seeing a show about gun laws and a woman who had been raped bought a gun after what happened and where she lived they did not allow concealed carry. She primarily bought a gun, because where she worked she would often have to leave alone at night and go to a dark isolated parking area where her car was parked. She felt very vulnerable there, as she should in my opinion. So, on her walk from the store to her car at night she carried her small gun in her hand for all to see to be compliant with the law. That doesn’t bother me much. I dont blame the woman. But, a gun in plain site in a populated area, that just doesn’t sound good to me. Too much can go wrong.

@DWW25921 Right, there goes the personal security argument again, and I am saying in the areas of the US where the people tend to be more antigun, they don’t live with guns around them all the time, nor do they have a lot of gun violence. They don’t feel the need for a gun for personal security. The big question to me should be, why are some American cities so full of gun violence? I don’t think the biggest factor is the gun laws, but rather the people in the cities and why they feel the need to own guns and use them for that matter.

You touched on one of the problems I have with the US. People are not necessarily trained well in using their guns. If everyone can have one and everyone wants one even more importanty, because it is just what everyone does, or because they feel cool, or more powerful, or more confident with their gun, then I think for sure we will have a lot of people flashing their guns on their person who really don’t know what the hell they are doing. In Switzerland they are trained.

It’s these assholes who put on a show by getting into groups and carrying their AR-15s into starbucks together to bring “attention” to the open carry laws and then starbucks ends up banning firearms in their establishments. Thanks a lot for making something even more controversial.

@ARE_you_kidding_me That also proves my point that there are assholes walking around with guns. They obviously think it is really cool to be armed and let everyone know it, and not only armed to protect themselves, but to shoot up an entire small theatre worth of people. too many pro-gun people try to make it sound very black and white. That there are good people and bad people, but there is a whole group inbetween who are not bad, but ego driven or stupid or insecure and they might not be great at handling a gun. The NRA should speak out as you have here about the problem with people mega guns out in the open to make a point. America has a real problem not with just guns, but many things, about the need to be ostentatious and do everything in a huge way to call attention.

I’m Jewish, and because of that there is a part of me that can definitely see the point in the right to bear arms. I wish a few Jews in Germany could have shot up a few Nazis before they died themseves. As a woman, a weapon is one of the great equalizers. Men simply have a physical advantage over us. However, I have lived the majority of my life in places where gun talk never came up and I liked that much much better. I felt safer (I actually was statistically safer in those cities) and even though I know some people owned guns it wasn’t a prideful thing, and no one was worried about the government taking their guns. The paranoia about that among some Republicans is unfounded in my opinion. I almost never hear an American talking about making all gun ownership ilegal.

What about the right of the rest of us to go buy a cheeseburger without seeing some half-crocked redneck straight from some testosterone-fueled hunting trip wandering into the place telling fish stories with a loaded weapon on his shoulder?

I think the rest of the country’s right to feel comfortable out in public trumps your right to be an asshole.

At lease concealed carry gives people the illusion that they aren’t surrounded by trigger happy whackos.

@cazzie @El_Cadejo I love to see women of high caliber

I don’t believe that a lot of people understand that an open carry weapon, if carried legally, is not loaded, nor is the magazine loaded. (@Seek, go to Burger King, the gun is empty.) Not that it takes a long time to pop in a loaded mag and put a live bullet in a chamber, but it isn’t like someone can pull their gun and bust a cap in one smooth motion. That’s movie action.

Someone carrying illegally most likely won’t be flashing their gun. For most, open carry isn’t a threat of violence, it’s a promise of defense. Those are not the people shooting first.

Does anyone have a statistic showing what percentage of non self-inflicted gun violence comes from EDIT: legal open carry? My guess is that it is the smallest of fractions.

I would say, logically, every single public act of gun violence ever.

Except perhaps a few 1920s gangsters who kept the gun in their suit pocket.

And how is anyone at Burger King supposed to know whether an openly carried gun is loaded?

Are we not taught at our firearms safety courses to assume that every gun is loaded, always?

Licensed or not, I don’t trust people who carry guns to act rationally – especially if they are carrying the guns into bars (legal in georgia).

An irrational person who is NOT carrying is less dangerous than an irrational person who IS carrying.

Licensing and training is worthless is the gun owner is drunk or nuts.

@Seek I added ‘legal’ to my ending question in response to your comment…

@elbanditoroso Nope, sorry. That answer makes a lot of assumptions. A law abiding gun tote in a bar is not consuming alcohol. A bartender will not serve someone carrying. It is never legal in the US to mix guns and alcohol.

@JLeslie There are light years between being an asshole and shooting up a theater, not a legitimate comparison. The NRA has come out against these open carry “exhibitions” because it’s doing damage to the perception of open carry. We are not supposed to be hauling around our rifles when we go get a cup of coffee, everyone knows it. It’s just silly because it’s an artificial, politically created movement to basically screw up the acceptable middle ground we used to have when it came to firearms. The utility of most of the carry laws really only is needed to allow people to transport them without being harassed. 90% of the permitted folks I know including myself really only use their permits for this. I’m with @GloPro on this though. I’m usually even more comfortable when they are around in the open rather than concealed.

In that case, because the majority of people are not stupid enough to open carry, and in most places it is not acceptable, there is likely not enough data to create a reliable statistic.

Also, it’s kind of wrong to change your comment after someone has responded.

My comment still stands: Every single act of public gun violence has resulted from openly-carrying a gun. No onlooker is going to know whether the person openly-carrying is doing so legally, or what his or her intentions are. Kind of like how if I dragged my ballista into a mall, someone would assume I was ready to fire it at something. Why the fuck else would I drag around a ballista?

How is there not sufficient data? We certainly have data on all of these highly publicized public shootings. How many of them were seen prior to the massacres legally openly carrying a weapon? Not one as far as I can recall.

This question is about open carry. Not being stupid enough to open carry prior to being violent is irrelevant.

@DWW25921 “I wouldn’t use Switzerland as a comparison because they have compulsory military service for all citizens.

Females, too?

If you want to parse the data and write up a study, I’ll read it. I got a “D” in statistics myself.

My question stands: How does any onlooker know whether a person carrying openly – especially something as blatantly inflammatory as an AR-15 – is loaded or not? that they know what they’re doing with it or not? whether or not they’re just off their meds?

@GloPro – yes, I am making assumptions. So are you.

You write “A law abiding gun tote in a bar is not consuming alcohol. A bartender will not serve someone carrying. It is never legal in the US to mix guns and alcohol.”

But that’s living in an ideal world. Reality is that happens every day in Georgia. I have been in various taverns (and restaurants) where liquor is flowing, the gun carrier is drinking, and he/she continues to be served.

So this idealistic’ gun carriers don’t drink – is just a crock. It’s public relations crap.

I personally would be wary of someone flaunting their open carry and most likely leave the situation. Those people are carrying for political or showboat reasons and have ulterior motives. You can spot those people easily.

Someone standing in line conversing with their kids about what to order, not calling any attention to the gun on their belt or shoulder would not bother me. I would be aware, as I am with my surroundings in general. If it were an AR-15 and he has it casually over his shoulder not in a case, my first assumption if he is not showboating is that he deemed it safer on his shoulder than in his car. Not all vehicles have trunks. I wouldn’t want it stolen on my way to or from the gun range, either. I might even ask to see the gun or strike up conversation about going out to play with it that day if we’re within proximity. It is certainly a conversation piece.

The gun would not be making me nervous. The behavior and attitude of the one carrying the gun would. I tend to remove myself from potentially volitile situations versus be a rubber-necker anyway. Mental instability doesn’t require a weapon to be dangerous.

@GloPro – so in a sideways way, you agree. But here’s the problem – because some idiot is flaunting the open carry laws, why should I have to leave? I have as much right to eat or drink and the tavern as he does. So why should him being an asshole make *me” have to leave?

It is he who is making people uncomfortable, not me.

I think that the people who complained at Starbucks and Chilis were correct. Management decided that would prefer not to lose lots of good paying customers, than give into to a population that enjoys making others feel uncomfortable. (the gun toters)

@GloPro – you wrote “Mental instability doesn’t require a weapon to be dangerous.”

That’s true. But mental instability with a gun is infinitely more dangerous.*

Since we can’t fix the mental instability, let’s control the gun.

@elbanditoroso Re: the bar drink and carry: If that situation bothers you call the cops or file a report. That bar will most certainly lose their liquor license and be shut down, and that gun owner will lose his right to carry. I don’t encounter a lot of business owners that will risk their livelihood to serve a cheap beer to someone openly packing a gun.

A lot of things go down in tiny backwoods hick towns that aren’t status quo. I have no doubt it happens, but if it bothers you then do something about it. Again I ask how often you have personally seen that situation lead to gun violence.

Re: why you have to leave. You don’t have to leave. You choose to leave. Big difference.

@GloPro – lead to gun violence? No. But that wasn’t your original statement. Your original statement was something like “bartenders won’t serve people with guns” – and that I have seen, plenty of times.

@JLeslie I believe the problem lies with how the laws are written. Clearly, there are many gun ownership laws that go after registered gun owners instead of criminals. Needlessly criminalizing people for the sake of others that do wrong is backward thinking. Why not make penalties tougher for the bad guys? How about focusing on them? They’re not going to because it’s too much effort. It’s easier to bug a guy with a registered firearm. They know where the guy is and what gun he has. So, they steal his gun and claim a victory! One more gun off the streets!

It reminds me of what happened in DeLand FL a few years back when I lived down there. There was a drug infested area of town. It was a nuisance but it was contained. So comes along a new sheriff and the idiot busts the entire neighborhood. Thus, spreading the problem around to every corner of the city because that neighborhood is now heavily patrolled. A person can’t walk the streets at night there anymore and the stupid cops called it a major victory because they found lots of drugs. The sheriff destroyed the city.

In other words, it’s an overkill mentality. What could possibly go wrong with grossly overacting? Well, for one thing it hurts more people than it helps. Gun laws that go after the criminal element with guns are few and far between however different states have different rules for law abiding gun owners that regularly get arrested for not being aware of a new law that pops up out of nowhere and all of a sudden they’re on a warrant list.

I believe it was Connecticut… One of the northern states made a few laws and rescinded them after realizing half their police force wasn’t in compliance… Good times.

I wonder how “safe” the open-carry crowd would feel if it were, say, this guy carrying instead of this guy

My money’s on Bachelor #2 using his concealed weapon to take out Bachelor #1 because of a “legitimate threat to his life”.

^ Edited to add.

@Seek In the same room together? As long as they were acting normally, neither one would bother me. Once they begin running their mouths, I’m outta there.

So you agree that a verbal altercation is more likely to escalate to violence if both are carrying firearms?

@elbanditoroso If a bartender serving alcohol to a guy with a gun bothers you, you can
A) leave the bar
B) say something to the bartender
C) call the cops or the liquor board and file a complaint

Because you have seen it “plenty of times” and continue to frequent those bars, then maybe it doesn’t bother you as much as you claim.

@Seek If I were anywhere and those two particular men got in each other’s faces I would leave. Yes, verbal altercation increases the chance of violence, gun or no gun. Those men are equally capable of using chairs, pool sticks, glasses, bottles, pretty much anything not bolted down, to injure themselves or those around them. Are you saying you would stick around to watch the fight if you didn’t see a gun?

Probably. People fight all the time. It’s usually fairly entertaining. And my husband is good at breaking up fights.

I certainly do not want to be involved in any sort of situation in which a self-righteous redneck appoints himself town sheriff in order to “protect” society from a legally-open-carrying black man. Because I have no taste for lead or hypocrisy.

@Seek If it were this guy and this guy, I’d stay and watch. The two you picked were pretty big men that have pretty big presence. And probably not alone. If I felt tension I’d find another place to be. Good debate, I’m out.

Your links are broken.

Regardless, we cannot change the law based on the physical appearance of the people choosing to carry. And we have to determine whether it is more important to us to allow a small group of people to carry what may or may not be loaded weapons into public and private establishments, or if we want everyone else to not fear for their lives every time they leave the house.

Sorry, but I live in Florida – Stand Your Ground territory. Redneck territory. Immigrant territory.

Open Carry + SYG = I’m never leaving my house again. This place would be a fucking war zone.

I live in hillbilly country… I’ve seen fellas beat the fire out of each other… Both having guns holstered that were never touched. It really depends on the persons mentality I suppose. It’s a different culture here in the hills. It’s like an accessory. You put on your watch in the morning… The only gun crimes that happen here are by folks who legally lost their right to have one in the first place. Usually the citizens take care of it before the cops show up.

Uh huh. Hillbilly country. Now put half of those hillbillies in an urban area and see how well they handle themselves.

@DWW25921 Laws are being made to take guns away from people who have permits to carry guns? Where? Who is taking their guns? Do you have an example of that?

@JLeslie I don’t believe I said that but I know Seattle and Chicago are making a few changes. I believe I read about it recently. I don’t feel like looking them up though to be honest. However, I did specifically mention Connecticut so I’ll post a link fer ya.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/09/confusion-reigns-as-gun-control-law-takes-effect-in-connecticut/

Look at the type of person that feels the need to “open carry” their assault rifles.
Wannabe Rambos and macho cunts that are only waiting and itching for an excuse to let it rip.

@ragingloli There may be a few like that but that’s like saying all Democrats are race baiting communists and all Republicans are corporately owned soulless fat cats. Are there some like that? Truly. Generalizing isn’t helping. I will give you that there does seem to be a perception problem. Like I said before, where I am it’s just part of the culture, not unlike wearing a watch. It’s an accessory. I suppose everyone has different motives.

I can honestly say I have never seen a watch that fired deadly projectile missiles.

@JLeslie I knew Connecticut was a disaster but it’s not the exact example I was thinking about with cops getting busted for non-compliance about laws they didn’t know about. Maybe that was California? I’m a bit scatterbrained. Anyway, here’s a better reference on the Connecticut situation. I’ll look up the other one. :)

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/investigations/No-Door-to-Door-Gun-Confiscations-State-251346661.html

The purpose of a watch is to tell time and the purpose of a gun is…....

@JLeslie I found an article that directly relates to your question about where folks are being harassed for legally carrying. It’s not in the mainstream media, as most important things aren’t… Anyway, there are stories like this all over the internet.

http://benswann.com/man-arrested-detained-after-legally-carrying-a-firearm/

@janbb Why do people need to come up with a reason? Why can’t they just go about their business if they’re not bothering anyone? Why does anyone have the right to bother a private citizen about what they do with their property? Of course, I’m an independent so I’m going to think that way but I want you to consider that imposing your assumed motives upon others doesn’t always mesh with the reality of the situation.

Someone please get me out of this country.

We’ve become sub-Saharan Africa, where the wealthy keep all the money and resources and you can’t walk out your door without the threat of being shot by some whacko with an assault rifle.

^ You are biased with a blanket anti-firearm mentality.

We also have a blanket anti-nazi mentality.
Not losing sleep over that one.

Everything Hitler did was legal under German law at the time.

@SecondHandStoke Too true…

I just had an interesting conversation with a relative, who is a police officer. He had the following comments about open carry.

- by a person carrying openly, he has just made himself the first target for the bad guy. The bad guy will see the firearm being openly carried, and take that person out first, because that person is the greatest threat. Once the open carry person is down, then the bad buy will go for the rest as his leisure.

- my family member, who has a concealed permit, also said that 90% of people who insist on open carry are, in fact, egotistical idiots. The police have more trouble with open carry people than from others.

- he said that he can see both sides of the argument. He carries – everywhere – but always concealed. His point is that he’s not going to make it easy for the bad guys.

@Seek “I can honestly say I have never seen a watch that fired deadly projectile missiles.”
Yes you have :P

I also love all this “good guy” “bad guy” talk. Makes me feel like a little kid playin make believe.

@El_Cadejo Do you want to be a cowboy or an Indian this time?

I want to be the black Spy. White Spy, anyone?

I’ll say again: I’m not opposed to concealed carry. Or rather, I understand that it’s not going anywhere.

I have a blanket “People are stupid” mentatlity. And when you get stupid people in large groups and add alcohol and visible firearms, I don’t want to be there.

@El_Cadejo That’s because they are little kids playing make believe.

@DWW25921 I read the second link, and I am admittedly exhausted right now, so please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like no one is going to have their permitted, registered, guns taken away because of any new laws.

@JLeslie Apparently I didn’t make myself clear. That’s not what I said. What I was saying is that the laws are confusing and in abundance. The laws don’t deter the bad guys, they end up irritating the good ones. Any law proposed under the guise of “keeping kids safe” during an election year is probably a load of bull hockey.

@DWW25921 I’ll certainly agree that gun laws are often political bullshit on both sides.

@El_Cadejo – you remarked on the use of “good guy” and “bad guy”. You might be interested to know that – at least in sections of the law enforcement community – the police don’t use words like “perpetrator” or “suspect” when speaking generically, they use the term “bad guy” to describe people who they (the police) are called to deal with in this sort of situation.

It may strike you as quaint, and it may not be the most politically sensitive terminology in the world, but it’s a fact.

I’d like to point out that, still, no one has told me how any onlooker is supposed to distinguish between a lawful open-carryer and a legitimate threat, how they’re supposed to tell when a gun is loaded vs. when it isn’t, and what the open-carrying individual’s intentions are.

@elbanditoroso Thanks for confirming that cops are more juvenile than I previously thought.

@Seek You can’t always tell. However, it’s unlikely that someone with ill intent is going to open carry. They’ll conceal for obvious reasons. While I don’t really have any major problem with open carry I think it’s kind of a jackass thing to do. I think most pro gun folks would agree, open carry is not such a good idea. That said, I’m actually pretty comfortable around folks who do open carry.For someone who has been around the culture it’s the concealed ones that worry me more. I generally don’t bat an eye for the ones who open carry. You don’t see that very often though. It’s a pretty rare thing. It’s usually refreshing to me when going to a gun show and seeing the folks there and how polite and respectful they are to each other. You would be hard pressed to see that big of a crowd be so nice and personable anywhere else. Most of the pro gun folks would be welcome neighbors.

Uh huh. If I go to a gun show, I expect to see people carrying guns. It is, after all, a gun show.

If I go to Foot Locker, I expect to see people trying on shoes, not confused veterans looking for a place to store their .30–06s.

All this talk talk talk about open carry and concealed carry and none of it prevents people with guns from killing other people.

Two cops killed point blank in Las Vegas today, both of them armed. Why? Because there are too many goddamned guns!

^Oh then PLEASE tell the class how many guns is the RIGHT number.

Earn our respect. Stop suggesting to us that you have some “reasonable” number in mind.

Instead, tell us about your impossible utopia where all firearms everywhere suddenly disappear.

You have NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that if there were fewer guns the one(s) that shot the officers would be among those to vanish into the ether.

@SecondHandStoke He earns our respect by caring more about people who are being gunned down for no reason than about people’s ability to prove their manhood via their gun ownership.

^ He is being as disingenuous as he is being unrealistic.

What does firearm banning have to do with such sociopaths at all?

How so very quickly the gun elimination set forgets about their triumphs from the past.

Was the Brady Bill not the solution it was claimed it would be??

@SecondHandStoke You’re totally right. There is no evidence at all to support the idea that stricter gun laws would result in less homicides…..Oh shit…wait a minute…...

Fire arm related Homicides per 100,000

United States ...... 3.60 (2011)
Switzerland ......... 0.52 (2010)
Canada ............... 0.5 (2009)
France ................. 0.22 (2009)
Germany ............. 0.20 (2010)
Norway ............... 0.04 (2010)
United Kingdom… 0.04 (2010)

So just fuck our constitutional right to literally bear arms.

Also, your statistics do not directly address my assertion above.

Did we not learn A SINGLE THING from the prohibition experiment?

Piers Morgan’s boots, tell us what they tasted like.

Fuck everyone’s human right to not have a gun within easy reach of any random toddler that walks away from Mom at the playground.

@SecondHandStoke “So just fuck our constitutional right to literally bear arms.”

You’re right once again, we’ve totally never amended our Constitution before. This current system isn’t fucking working.

I don’t get the Piers Morgan comment. I tend not to watch shit American “news”

My guess is that US citizens are not used to seeing guns carried in public. If this is the case, then it would be a change to which we would quickly adapt.

@SecondHandStoke It is understandable what you mean by comparing gun control to prohibition. What the people of England found is that this is not true. They went from a gun-toting country to one where it is under strict control. It took many years and revisions to their laws. It is now a country where the vast majority of the population fears guns and the police officers do not carry.

Legal or not, Open carry makes you the first target.

On the street a gun has a higher resale value than any iPhone.

Tyrants prefer unarmed peasants.

@Pied_Pfeffer

What do you mean the system isn’t working?

I, an of age, non convict of sound mind can be legally armed.

Well, for now.

From @LuckyGuy, our friendly neighborhood ammo-burner.

It’s not ammo burning.

It’s called practice. One of the dedicated’s tools.

gun nuts will be the first to join the oppressors.

But I wasn’t talking about so called gun nuts.

I was talking about the inevitable erosion of our Constitutionally insured rights.

@SecondHandStoke What you are asking isn’t clear to me. Can you clarify?

@Pied_Pfeffer It’s because the comment wasn’t meant for you, it was meant for me.

@SecondHandStoke As per how to clarify what I mean, I don’t know what exactly you want me to say aside from heyyyyy look up at those numbers again and tell me our “right to bear arms” is a good thing or even the example from @Pied_Pfeffer and how it correlates with the numbers I posted. You probably will though so I’m not sure why I’m even bothering to write this.

I’m not suggesting that open carry is a good idea in all situations.

I am however definitely saying that carry laws are one of the many arcs in the anti gun circlejerk.

Open carry is only a good idea if you’re on a battlefield…..

@LuckyGuy well yeah….because it’s hard to protect yourself with an iphone and cops are fucking useless.

I’m trying very hard – and failing – to come up with a situation in which a legally openly-carried firearm is a better idea than a concealed one. Other than the battlefield, as mentioned by @El_Cadejo

@El_Cadejo Awesome use of selective copy&pasting…..maybe just for the fuck of it, you could post all of the statistics….for example, the stats for Mexico….you know…somewhere guns are illegal.

@SecondHandStoke – Actually, @LuckyGuy is one of the few people I know who uses his tools for their intended purpose: Making things dead. The things he makes dead are things that need to be controlled.

I come from a family of hunters. I could regale you with tales of deer season until I’m blue in the face (or… fingertips). I’m not opposed to guns being used responsibly. I am opposed to my daily life becoming one in which I actually have to wonder whether that guy brought that gun to show it off, or to use it. I definitely don’t want it to be a world in which I have to carry a gun in order to not be seen as a target. Because I don’t want a gun. And believe me, with my eyesight and my peripheral vision and my family’s history of mental illness, you don’t want me to have one, either.

@cheebdragon I left out Central and South America(and Mexico) because they have corruption issues out the ass so legality means little or nothing, generally aren’t considered in the same league as “Western Countries” in regards to rights and safety, and don’t a few of those countries get guns from our government?

Two-thirds of all gun related deaths (19,392 in 2011) are suicides. Two-thirds of all homocides in 2011 were also by gun (11,078 gun homocides). The current United States population is 313.9 million. That’s .0035% of the population annually being murdered by guns. 18–24 year olds and people with criminal records comprise the majority of those deaths. Prior records amount for about 75% of those killed in urban areas.

The current population in the UK is 63.23 million. Obviously this is almost 5 times fewer people. I only mention this as relevant because there are 5 times fewer people to possibly go apeshit and cause a violent event. Combine that with world wide obsession and media coverage of mass violence, and of course the USA will have more incidences of violence. I am not disputing that there are fewer deaths per capita in the UK due to gun restriction.

To link my point: there are an estimated 270 million to 310 million guns currently owned by civilians in the United States. For easy math I will go with the high number, which equates to one gun per person in the United States. At .0035%, I do not see that as a significantly relevant number of homocides by guns to warrant limiting gun ownership and the right to bear arms. Thinking that guns are the issue when faced with the statistics above is just refusing to face realistic facts via numbers.

Source
Although I used Wikipedia for certain statistics, I cross ref’ed the resources given on that site to double check myself. It was easier to have one common source. It was very interesting reading, too, by the way. Full of statistical numbers.

It usually bothers me when I see punk kids.. Drug dealers, and not always so young hells angels conceal carry. That’s right the idiots can’t hide the bulge. When I was young and bought mj or networked with these kids I felt the need to stifle my fear move very slowly and cautiously with these folks. Cause I never knew what they were on and what would set them off. I did know it would take them extra time to get to their gun and I would see it coming. I think open carry would escalate situations like this.

I did have a gun teacher and know some othe assorted folk who conceal carry. But most of the time i cant tell if they packing or not. Also i know they have taken classes and know how to handle their weapon.

If I saw a stranger open carrying. I would avoid them as a rule.

@Unbroken The biggest difference in your situation is that you are engaging in an illegal transaction with someone concealing a (most likely) illegally obtained and not registered weapon. Bet your ass that gun is loaded and definitely a threat.

A law abiding citizen engaging in an open carry right to bear arms does not have a loaded gun holstered.

Again… Go by the attitude, behaviors and actions of your thugs. Of course you were afraid. If you weren’t in an illegal scenario, but at a country BBQ, and a man in a cowboy hat, boots, and plaid sat down next to you to eat his burger and strike up friendly conversation, once you noticed he was carrying a gun I have a hard time believing you would be as scared of him.

@GloPro
A law abiding citizen engaging in an open carry right to bear arms does not have a loaded gun holstered.

How do you know they are law-abiding citizens? Skin colour? What they’re wearing? “Good Guy” tattooed on their earlobes?

Open carry: Totally not a threat, as long as he’s wearing a cowboy hat.

@Seek You’ve been asking this same question all thread. I don’t suspect you will ever get an answer to it because there quite simply is no way to know.

Is This guy OK to open carry? He’s black, but he IS wearing a cowboy hat.

@Seek I remember you saying that you were terrible at statistics, but see my post two or three above. The statistical chance that you should be worried are so miniscule that I feel safe in my surroundings and situational awareness. If someone is not flaunting their gun for political or showboat reasons and behaving normally then I am not the slightest bit concerned.
When you see crazy coming you have a chance to cross the street.

@GloPro The statistical chance that you should be worried are so miniscule that I feel safe in my surroundings and situational awareness.”

Then why should anyone need to carry a gun at all, anywhere?

@GloPro “When you see crazy coming you have a chance to cross the street.”
Silly me…..and here I was thinking guns were projectile weapons…

Ooh ooh! White guy thug in plaid

I’m so confused! Good guy or bad guy?!?

You guys can hide all you want. I’m just saying guns do not bother me in the slightest bit. Statistics back me up on that.

@dappled_leaves Because they can. That’s reason enough. I could care less why they do. Again, the statistics. They aren’t using them.

@Seek Well, his hand isn’t on the trigger.

And he isn’t at a BBQ wearing a cowboy hat, big buckle, boots, and a smile. Not my scenario.

Can someone good at maths help me out here?

If .0035% of the population of 314 millions is murdered by guns annually, and one lives for, say, 70 years, what’s the statistical likelihood that one will eventually be murdered with a firearm in their lifetime?

@GloPro Yes, sweetie, but Constitutional rights aren’t only made for cute little wannabe cowboys at the church picnic. They’re for morons and drug dealers, too.

Ok, clearly it’s me against 5 people who get everyone else all freaked out when they see a gun in public. Maybe it’s you guys freaking out that causes all the fuss. Open or concealed carry doesn’t bother me, nor has it ever directly impacted me or anyone I know.
I live in a relatively safe town. Full of good people. We have a low crime rate. Some people carry guns. Nothing changes on a day to day basis because they carry guns. I can buy an AR-15 in a parking lot at a gun how without waiting here. I’ve been with guys that have done so on two separate occasions. It hasn’t seemed to create dangerous situations or frenzy either time.

@Seek There are several states with laws requiring a loaded chamber indicator on a gun. Gun manufacturers will make the same gun two ways to market to all states. Without being educated on guns, I doubt that you would know if there was a bullet chambered or not. Even more so when you won’t go anywhere near someone carrying.
... And your morons and drug dealers could care less about the law. You can ban guns all you want and your drug dealer will have one.

We don’t all live in Mayberry.

I’m not talking about banning guns. When, in this thread, have I ever mentioned banning guns?

I’m talking about it being perfectly acceptable for everyone – not just your pretty country boys, but everyone – to walk around packing heat, because no one can tell without close inspection whether a gun is loaded or not.

You want to argue for open carry because you don’t care if the boys who live down the holler do it. But again – we don’t all live in Mayberry. Some of us live where we’d rather the for real “bad guys” actually had to make an effort to not be seen with a weapon.

Not seeing it doesn’t mean it’s not there. I guess I’m not the kind that would rather not know.

Reno is hardly Mayberry. That’s where the AR-15s are bought and sold in parking lots. There are parts of town I don’t go because I’m not a fool. See the statistic relating to prior records leading to gun violence.

Yeah, I heard someone shot a man in Reno once, just to watch him die. Best everyone have guns there.

@cazzie You win the thread.

*bows graciously

No need to worry he’s in folsom prison.

But see… he wore Black… so… we know he was bad. Cause the good guys wear white.

Besides, these days he’d get off pleading he was ‘standing his ground’.

“Not seeing it doesn’t mean it’s not there.”

But it does mean that I won’t eat at Applebees. probably a good thing

Fact from fiction, truth from diction. So much stuff, but it all comes to the usual talking points. Would open carry deter crime? The fact some do not want to admit is that few people will want to tangle with a person whom they know is armed, or try to accost anyone within the proximity of a person who is armed when they don’t know if they will intervene. If a person has the right to open carry a pistol and they get mad at someone and shoot them, it can happen. Is it the pistol that is the culprit? In reality it was the attitude of the person with the pistol, not the actual pistol. Because people erroneously believe that if more pistols are available that more murders or crimes will happen. This goes on the premise that a person can’t get an illegal weapon if they really wanted it. This nation started with many, many people being armed. The mindset then was not to flaunt guns around. There might have been a few people they would call gunfighters, but that was not most people. The reason people respect guns less today than back then is due to a severe lack of gun knowledge and education. I would gander that children from a young age back in the Old West was introduced to a rifle or pistol at an early age, but they were taught to respect it and that is was not a proper means to solve arguments or disputes; and it was easier to kill someone on the plains and run and dodge the law. I think simply to believe that if ordinary citizens were given the option to carry or carry openly that they would shoot people more than they are now. If that were the argument one could make that on other issues as well. I think it is that misguided thinking that makes people uncomfortable with seeing one with a pistol on their side, even if the clip is in their pocket.

Hey @Seek what do you have against people who represent a more rural demographic in the US? Redneck, Hillbilly, Mayberry, etc. Are you even an American? If so you represent an elitist Urbanite who probably has never seen three trees in a group, and probably have never even handled a firearm. you are certainly not representative of the majority of Americans. As earlier and many times stated, idiots who brazenly open-carry are often morons who want to call attention to themselves by carrying their long-guns openly wearing camouflage and embarrassing the rest of us. From reading over the posts the OP has been pretty much covered and the rest is shit-stirring by you and those of your ilk. for information only, I found gun-related crime tables, and when you aren’t cherry-picking, the US is about mid-pack when it comes to Firearm related murders/crime. here is an example of tables I have found. I am a Midwestern middle-aged veteran, I do carry often, always concealed. The absolute last thing I want to do is draw my weapon, but I have made a commitment to be a responsible carrier and use the power entrusted and endowed to me by the constitution to protect life if necessary. I have taken many many hours of instruction, I have neutralized threats to my person, and I can tell you carrying that guilt is something that never goes away. Until you face a life-or-death situation, you can spout lots of platitudes and stigmatize all you want, but once you actually kill someone, all that goes out the window and all that remains is ‘I am alive today because I pulled my trigger before he did.’ It’s not a country boy thing, or a redneck thing. It’s a human thing, and it leaves a hole these open carry publicity-mongering morons will never, ever, understand.

I think not knowing who is is packing or not is much more of a deterrence and much friendlier from a social aspect as well. Sure I wouldn’t mind being around most people I know if they had a weapon but strangers… Nah tmi too soon. Its like someone telling you first thing that they have a black beltand aren’t afraid to use it.

@majorrich Did you miss the part where I said I was raised by hunters? By self-styled “hillbillies”? My step-grandfather was a moonshiner raised in rural Kentucky, who fed his family with money from working the coal mines. On the other hand, I was born in New York City and my father was a police officer who drilled gun safety into me every Thursday night when he cleaned his sidearm.

So, kindly take your ad-hominem and shove it.

@majorrich ” I have neutralized threats to my person, and I can tell you carrying that guilt is something that never goes away.”

Are you saying that you have actually shot people you considered a threat, as a civilian? That is utterly horrifying.

I was in the service at the time, but it was from within 1 meter of my opponent. I watched his face die right before me. That was some 30 years ago and I still have nightmares re-living the situation.

Geez guys… I leave for a few hours and come back to almost 50 new messages and enough information to write a book! Y’all are busy! Anyway, I want to thank @ibstubro for the great thought provoking question. Personally for me I don’t think there is an all inclusive answer. I think regionally there are different customs in different places and what seems normal in one place would be off the wall in another. Diversity is what makes this country unique. Open carry just isn’t a big deal where I’m at. I do think concealing your sidearm is a better idea for several reasons but it’s none of my business so I choose to live and let live.

@majorrich Well, then I can’t imagine why you brought it up in this context. You must obviously be aware that walking down a city street does not offer the same dangers as being in a combat zone.

Attacks on Hicks and Country boys with a wide brush doesn’t either. I am not from a rural background either, but it’s unfair to stigmatize everyone for the behavior of a few morons.

Personally, I think “hicks” are a lot of fun to hang with and Seek would probably feel safer with a derringer in her purse. There, problem solved! I don’t think this question is about irresponsibly as much as proper protocol. Folks have different ways of doing things is all. I hope that helped…

I also “stigmatized” thugs and idiots. All people who tend to think carrying firearms into the grocery store (to… hunt mince meat?) is a good idea.

If I had a derringer in my purse I would be under constant stress that my child would find it and do harm to himself or someone else. Fuck that noise.

They are a also a pain to bring to bear quickly and the user usually ends up with powder burns and a nasty bruised hand.

Would you rather she carried around a .50? Seek with a nickel plated Israeli desert eagle! Ba ha ha ha… Seriously though… Those are beauties.

Bwahahaha.. I am personally a fan of Seacamp’s .380. It is tiny and properly used is an effective deterrent.

I was totally offended, because I’m pretty sure I’m that Urban Elitist he was referring to. (jk… sort of)

Other countries have many legally owned guns as well, but they don’t kill each other or themselves at the same rate. Sorry people. It’s the culture. I wish it were as simple as taking all the guns away.

I have guns that have not been fired since new and they have never committed a single crime. I agree it is cultural and as my old SgtM would say. “It’s a training issue”

I think the bottom line is people worry about things needlessly. It’s only a problem if someone decides it’s a problem. Why can’t folks just live and let live? I’ve talked to seek before and she’s a really smart person she just imposes other peoples problems upon herself than worries about them needlessly. I have a sister who does the same thing. I see cazzie’s point however I will add that the “problem” manifests itself very differently depending on what region you’re in. There isn’t a blanket solution that will wotk for the entire country.

@majorrich You’re an army vet. Can’t you at least see that you’ve been trained vastly different than most gun carrying Americans?

Yup. And I wish that could change. I can only do what I can. Spreading the gospel of restraint and sharing what I can of what the consequences are when the trigger is pulled. Just like words, the bullet can’t be re-called and put back like things were.

I must be a sensitive lug. :)

@majorrich So, do you not see how it could be an issue having people without proper training carrying a fire-arm?

Oh yeah! I see it daily. I try to fool myself by thinking ‘this guy has his CCW, he must have some kind of training’. I know, am absolutely convinced, if the moment came, a poorly or non-conditioned firearms carrier would do nothing but get in the way.

@majorrich So then ,one final question, do you see how you actually agree with @Seek ?

Good thing we are not in the same room armed, by the moderated comments, someone might be offended enough to produce a firearm, giving ammo to those who believe that is the zero sum conclusion anytime someone is armed.

Let’s force everyone here to hold a gun and prove that having one doesn’t mean you will use it.

That is why I said we could probably work out differences over lunch and a day at the range. On substantive issues I do indeed agree with seek, I am objecting to referring to Hicks, People in Cowboy hats, and basically everyone who is not a city mouse. To those I take offense on their behalf. Rural people use firearms daily in pest control and recreational purposes and are just as, if not more safety conscious than urban people. For example, New Years Eve, I happened to be in a large Midwestern city at midnight. It sounded just like a battle zone. That rarely if ever happens in a rural setting.

In the tiny town in Midwest where I come from, someone was shot last month. Thankfully, the guy missed and it hit his shoulder, but it was an attempted homicide. Last year, a woman was stabbed to death by her boyfriend. She, ironically, was a social worker who counselled battered women. When I was growing up there.. I thought it was Mayberry.

There seems to be a general upswing in violent behavior all over. Is it being more reported, or is it real?

Look at Emergency Room statistics, not media accounts.

@majorrich – If you follow the conversation, you’ll realise I was commenting in reply to specific things said by others, in regards to feeling more safe with “country boys in cowboy hats and plaid” carrying a gun in the open. I was wondering whether that person or those people would feel equally comfortable with other citizens of non-cowboy-hat-wearing persuasions exercising the same rights. Something I also never really received an answer to.

People want to talk about the rights of the legal open-carrier and the “bad guy”. I am arguing from the standpoint of everyone else that will become the eventual OK Corral collateral damage.

I already live in a state where it is absurdly easy to get away with murder, and we have a 10/20/life law in effect. Supersede 10/20/life with open carry, and you can literally walk up to someone on the street and shoot them dead with no repercussion. You likely won’t even be arrested. They had a gun. How were you to know that it wasn’t loaded? They took their gun out of their holster, Your Honour, I swear. I was in fear for my life! BANG! And I’m really sorry I hit that kid who was riding his bike. I was so scared for my life my first couple of shots missed my target.

How can open carry possibly be a good thing?

Open carry is only good in gun shops, pawn shops and check cashing where it’s not armor plated. This is where we agree. I tried to read carefully, but as this is in the general section, I saw those comments as flippant and irritating. And I am sleepy, but unable to close my eyes so am cranky. For that I apologize. My observations of “bad guy” shooting techniques indicate a hit, other than from a very short distance is very unlikely. A trained CCW should be able to neutralize that threat pretty easily, but at a terrible cost. Still, center mass or headshot is best to not get sued. You are sure to be arrested. Long guns being open carried is like a paintball match. Mostly for looks and the only way the bozo can ‘exercise his rights’ . hurts our cause more than helps it.

Here is the answer, which I thought I made clear. I don’t care if you are purple and wearing no shirt. It is the behavior and the attitude of the person carrying a gun that makes me comfortable or uncomfortable.
I thought I actually said that, almost word for word, several times? Oh, well, one more time, for good measure:
I would feel equally comfortable with people not wearing plaid and described as a redneck Mayberry hick as long as they were not showboating and carrying a gun for political or hostile reasons. I am comfortable with people carrying guns in general.

Great. Now, how will you write that into a viable open carry law?

Please remember that it is not illegal to be an asshole. So you cannot say “you are allowed to open-carry until you start being a showboating jerk”.

@GloPro You show more faith in people than they deserve, is all I’m saying. See, I don’t trust people in general and especially in large herds. They spook easy and make irrational decisions, especially the ones fed on a steady diet of fear and disillusionment. It doesn’t take a brave man to carry a gun around hidden or on obvious display. My first question when I see that is, ‘What are they afraid of?’ and my second is ‘Why do they want to live in fear like that?’

I believe the people spooking easily are the ones adamantly against the right to bear arms. I’m not the one that freaks out and gets all upset when someone has a gun, now am I?
If you refuse to believe the statistical facts and cannot understand that having a gun on your person does not mean you will use it then there really is nothing more to say. There are millions upon millions of people out there capable of defending themselves, gun or no gun. That does not equate to striking first or making the first aggressive move.
With 310 million guns out there, it is my belief that the majority are not being carried at all. Permits are issued at the rate of about 5% of any given city population. Of those, I believe the majority to be law abiding and good citizens. Those that aren’t will not be stopped by the law. Even that 5% aren’t toting around a gun everyday, everywhere. I will make an assumption that most people do not see as much as one gun a day on a civilian. One gun that statistically doesn’t cause violence. Yet this is a big deal?
Statistics show that historically the majority of violence is not stemming from people with carry permits. Period. The majority of violence is not coming from people with carry permits. That is a fact, not an opinion.

@GloPro I didn’t mean to ignore you.

Not all of them were criminals mj is practically legal now. Hells angels aren’t necessarily criminals either. It was just the biggest groups that came to mind.

It wasn’t what they were doing that made uncomfortable. There are a number of things to take into account.

Personality, practicality, knowledge of the weapon, if they knew of other means to diffuse a situation. If they knew how to hit what they were aiming for, if it was loaded, what kind of bullet or gun if I couldn’t tell, if there was a round in the chamber, was I meant to notice, if I gave them a ride and we got pulled over what would happen, did they have a permit ( not necessary in ak but police like it better when you have one) or were they a felon, if there was a safety on the weapon an whether they were using it. The other people around and how they would react to knowing there was a weapon if they noticed. What was their motivation to carry.

I didn’t always know these people. In fact I avoided them upon noticing it. I judged them too risky to know unless someone I knew and trusted vouched that they were competent to carry the weapon.

They could have been fine but I never gave them a chance. If a lot of people open carried here, which some people do I would have all the same questions.

In fact I was told it was legal to open carry here in city limits but a lot of businesses ban them somost people don’t do it. I have seen people open carry and i don’t know any of them. So that speaks to my ability to overcome the hostility implied by the open carry.

Actually, the Hell’s Angels have been legally determined to be a criminal organization. When in court, the prosecution no longer has to go through the motions of proving them to be criminals. They are the first organization in North American history to be classified this way.

Huh. Thanks I didn’t know that @GloPro.

To simplify my long post and get to my point which I wasn’t clear about.

Our parents teach us not to point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot. My class teacher went farther to say don’t show a weapon unless you are prepared to use it.

Until the gun comes into sight you have other options. Even if it is just the element of surprise. So I interpret people who open carry as saying first line of defense. Or more to the point it is an offensive position. Fine for hunts or hikes where there is big wildlife. But pretty cocky in social situations. I wonder how many have even proven that they can handle themselves or rely on muscle memory to kick in should the worst happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)
I will never ever live in the us again. There’s just way too many shootings. End of. This is what happend here, and what happened after. End of.

Another incident in my hometown area. A boy my nephew went to boy scouts with did this at his high school: http://www.theawl.com/2010/12/two-hours-in-marinette-lessons-from-a-school-shooting. He grew up with guns and the ones he took with him to the school were all legally owned by his parents. Not sure how he got the 2085 rounds of ammo, but there is a local Walmart and Kmart.

^ It is supposed to read 205 rounds of ammo…...

“I believe the people spooking easily are the ones adamantly against the right to bear arms.”

And yet I don’t feel that my life is so constantly in threat that I need to carry a gun around on me at all times JUST IN CASE.

Maybe that’s not why they carry it. You are making assumptions.

I have no trunk in my SUV. I would not leave my gun in my car at a gas station when I went in to pay for my gas on the way to the range. I drive a motorcycle. I will not leave my gun under my seat when I stop for lunch on my way home from the range. It isn’t because I am afraid of anyone. It’s because I am a responsible gun owner and will not risk someone irresponsible with malicious intentions stealing a gun registered to me. For example. I can give you more innocent examples if you would like.

Unless you ask everyone carrying a gun you really have no idea why they are carrying it on that particular day.

@GloPro Why do you feel the need to bring the gun with you out of the house in the first place?
Unless you’re on your way to the range I just don’t get it.

@GloPro If you lived here you wouldn’t have that problem. Guns have to be locked up at the range. I’m sure you would have that option as well, surely. If you didn’t travel with it, you wouldn’t have to be afraid it would be stolen.

How else do I take it to a shooting range? I enjoy shooting at targets. I can’t do that in my neighborhood, now can I?

@GloPro Do you ever carry when you’re not on your way to the range?

@GloPro Your argument is a reductio ad absurdum. I think it is safe to assume that most people who are carrying their guns into Starbucks and Target are not all on the way to the shooting range on motorcycles.

heh Target

And for carrying from place to place in one’s car, in my area they have a “three steps” rule. There has to be at least three steps to get from where your gun is to getting it loaded. So, keep the gun unloaded and in your trunk until you get to the range. Ta-da! Not hard.

@cazzie I cannot protect my home with a gun locked away at a range. Duh. I’m not afraid it will be stolen. I am ensuring it won’t be stolen.

When I have driven across the country several times I have taken my gun for personal safety in my hotel room. I have flown with a gun from coast to coast. I do so responsibly, legally, and within my rights. Why I have a gun is really no one’s business. I can assure you that it isn’t always for personal safety, however.

I’m simply stating that you are assuming everyone carries it because they are afraid. That isn’t true. I like guns, I enjoy talking about guns, I like shooting guns. I like showing off my gun and comparing it to other people’s guns. I like gun gadgets. I know people that like to build guns. I like gun shows. I could compare it to classic cars or other collectible toys. It’s a hobby for some. It isn’t because they foresee violence. Guns are so unique and varied that gun enthusiasts just enjoy them. None of you will ever understand that. You just won’t. Half of your thought patterns are just not accurate.

If you absolutely can’t get from your house to the range without stopping at Tar-zhay, get a ride from a friend.

Your house, your car, your hotel room are not public places.

Oh, @GloPro , so you keep the guns with you because you ARE afraid…. right.

@GloPro You think someone is going to try to steal a gun from your locked car when the gun is nowhere in sight? So now people are breaking into your car. I know people do break into cars, I just find that to be an odd argument. Also, wouldn’t conceal carry be sufficient for when you go from your car to the store?

I’m not completely against open carry if you see my comments above, I have mixed feelings, but for the life of me I can’t understand why you can’t understand that open carry might make a lot of people very uncomfortable.

Do you actually prefer to carry your weapon out in the open? Or, are you just arguing it should be legal?

I thought this thread was about open vs concealed carry. Where are our mods?

@ARE_you_kidding_me It doesn’t look to me that it has gone off topic. The OP is asking why people don’t like open carry, he argued that knowing someone is packing should possibly make people more comfortable.

@Seek. I told you I don’t have a trunk. My gun is not loaded or with ammo when I travel. A motorcycle is considered a legal vehicle, so in your area there has to be a consideration for that. A loaded weapon is not acceptable in most areas.

@El_Cadejo No, I don’t just carry my gun around everywhere.

@janbb I’m not suggesting that everyone is on a motorcycle. It is a rare occurrence for me as well. My SUV does not have a trunk either. I have left my gun in its hard case and taken it into a restaurant many times to keep knowledge of its whereabouts and safety for all in consideration. It has nothing to do with being scared. It is quite obvious when you have gun cases and ammo boxes in your SUV.

@cazzie I have no idea what your response is referencing.

@janbb It is my right to own ammo and I am not paying indoor range prices. I go to an outdoor range in Carson City that isn’t staffed and doesn’t sell ammo. It is rare I go to an indoor range. When I do it is to rent and try a gun someone else has raved about. It costs a fortune to do that.

@JLeslie If I am with my friends with the AR-15 then we absolutely open carry. It’s in a cloth case, but we obviously have a large gun. It is foolish and reckless to leave it in the car with no trunk. My car has been broken into 3 separate times in my life (not gun related). That is enough for me to not just leave a gun in a car out of my sight. I do not wear my handgun on a holster because I think it looks silly. I don’t have a problem with those that do.

Look, folks. I like to shoot targets and pumpkins. I like the methodical act of stripping and cleaning a gun after a great day at the range. I like to show my gun off because I’m proud of it. I like to look at other people’s guns because they are proud of them. They are really interesting (and dangerous). I carry my gun when I have it out of the house because I am aware it is dangerous and would rather have it with me than risk any other outcome, and it is my right to do so. There is no way I would pull it out and use it in public, not even if someone else has a gun, because I leave the ammo separate. It’s useless with me. I will, however, shoot to kill if I find myself at home in need of protecting myself from imminent violence to my person. I will also protect myself and my rights should the need arise in an unlikely zombie apocalypse or government overthrow. That’s just how it is. I don’t think I am dangerous, overly zealous, or stupid.

I could do a lot of the things you are all suggesting because you are so adamantly against guns, but I don’t have to. I don’t choose to. I honestly think that unless you own guns or are familiar with guns to a degree that you are somewhat naive as to how feasible your suggestions are. Of course they are possible, but not all together realistic.

I believe I represent the majority of responsible gun owners. I do not claim to speak for the guy toting a gun to Starbucks or Target to be some kind of badass. I don’t believe there is a huge problem with that happening regularly, either. The rights of all should not be stifled because of the political statements of few.

@GloPro stated above “I don’t care if you are purple and wearing no shirt. It is the behavior and the attitude of the person carrying a gun that makes me comfortable or uncomfortable.”

This is partly why I used the parallel of the feminist smirking while displaying “Still not asking for it” on her bare chest.

Though this does not make me uncomfortable, it just makes me roll-my-eyes-and-groan annoyed.

It’s not the action, it’s the ‘tude that’s undermining your “cause” Toots.

@GloPro – Yes, there is. It’s called either going directly where you’re intending to be (like, make the trip to Target before loading up your weapon) or getting a ride from a friend that has a secure location to store your weapon during the munchie run.

Your poor planning skills do not justify an open-carry law.

To further illustrate: If my friends and I want to go to fighter practice, we zip-tie the rapiers together so they can’t be used and leave them in the trunk. If we don’t have a trunk, we don’t carry the rapiers into the store – we leave someone in the car to watch the swords while someone else runs in for Funyons and Mountain Dew. It would not be acceptable under any circumstances to bring a fencing sword into a store.

A foil?

@Seek Bottom line is I don’t HAVE to. It isn’t poor planning. It’s intentional planning. We plan to stop for a meal after shooting so we can talk about the great day. Just like dinner after a movie.
For me to be comfortable carrying my unloaded weapon legally around to bother you does not mean I am doing anything wrong. It just means I bother you.

If you carried your swords I would take note, think you were an oddball, and keep on keeping on. That’s it. I wouldn’t think it unacceptable behavior.

Not a foil. A rapier. We’re Medieval re-enactors.

Gotcha.

@Seek Also not feasible to make a separate run for ammo, as Walmart is on the way to the range and 30 miles from my house. Why would I bother to do that when it is my legal right to carry my gun with me to protect its whereabouts as I buy ammo? It’s just dumb to think it’s a better plan to make a 60 mile round trip just so someone else is comfortable with me being a responsible gun owner out of their line of sight.

Holy Jesus fuck.

Look, if it’s already legal for you to open-carry, do whatever the hell makes you happy. I don’t care. I’m not there. My argument is against passing open-carry laws where I am – mostly because I’m in Florida and people are frakking crazy here, and all the above reasons I mentioned.

I still don’t find any good reason that open-carry should be legal. And I definitely don’t find “I feel like going to the range but not planning ahead of time” to be a good reason. If it’s that important, get a concealed permit and carry it responsibly.

@JLeslie I realize some people are uncomfortable. I smile at them. I’m friendly. I’m not carrying my gun to be a douche. I don’t flaunt or advertise it. There isn’t much more I can do. As mentioned, most of the time I carry it in a locked hard case and people may not realize what’s in it.

@GloPro Ok, I can understand if someone doesn’t have a trunk or they are riding a motorcycle, and it is a hunting gun of some sort, that isn’t something you can conceal. As long as the gun is in a carrying case I can see the argument for it. A case that someone would have to take the time to get it out of the case to do something with it, that is less threatening.

The whole argument that the gun cannot have ammo in it, well I know almost nothing about guns, but I do know I am supposed to assume all guns are loaded.

You wrote, “I like to show my gun off because I’m proud of it.” That’s the part that seriously made me uncomfortable in TN—the pride. I can understand gun people being interested in each others guns and appreciating the workmanship, or for an antique gun the history, or even sentimental value for a gun passed down through the family. But, the need to wear it to show it off, that really bothers me. That is the very attitude and culture I was talking about above. That ego bit associated with guns is the really scary part. I am not saying all gun owners are busy trying to feed their ego and feel more powerful than everyone else, but when that is the case the combination isn’t great. The gun culture to me is different than a hunting culture. I know people who hunt who don’t drive around every day with a gun rack on the back of their pick-up truck. That guy sure as hell isn’t worried about them being stolen off Ho’s truck I guess, he is more worried about showing them off.

@Seek Again, the range is a part of my planned day. In fact, range days are planned more heavily than any other days I have. What you are calling poor planning is a difference of opinions.
If you find a way to conceal an AR-15 you let me know. I personally would rather know someone has one than to wonder what’s under that trench coat.

We could lock them in a trunk if any of us had one. Two pickups, two SUVs. We carpool. We don’t intentionally try to offend people. Quite the contrary, we try to be as responsible as possible. We could go straight there and back, I suppose. But given that the range is more than a half hour away, the ammo can be purchased along the way, it’s a long day, and there are many good restaurants we don’t get to go to because they are so far away we choose not to do so. Your opinion of what good reasons to open carry are is vastly different than mine. Maybe we should instead be discussing why an open carry is a bad idea? So far the only one is that it makes people uncomfortable, even though there is no evidence that open carry leads to more violent incidences?

And, @Seek, I DO carry any gun responsibly.

Good Grief! Are you guys still at it? I figured we had looked at this question from every conceivable angle and decided open carry wasn’t a good idea, but was unavoidable sometimes. I still remain firmly against open carry in restaurants and stores, etc. at least cover it with your shirt. Long guns… No. Just render the weapon safe, carry the bolt in your pocket and lock the rest in the car out of sight. No sense in exciting the sheeple.

We could return to the part of the discussion where you yourself mentioned that you would immediately leave any situation in which you found a black guy and a white guy both open carrying with bad attitudes.

@Seek Thou shalt not go there. It is written in the book of “What could possibly go wrong?”

What does that have to do with anything? Again, if there appears to be trouble brewing between two huge guys of ANY color, gun or no gun, then I choose to remove myself from that situation.

I fail to see your point and feel you are grasping at moot points straws.

I have a strict “run away” policy in cases like this. It’s similar to my “I saw nothing” policy.

@GloPro *moot

@JLeslie People are also proud of their cars, their tattoos, their name brand clothes, purses, shoes. It is human nature to show off your possessions you are proud of. Hell, some people parade their kids around.
I see nothing wrong with being proud of a gun. That does not correlate in any way to violence.

I think we have a case where my opponent is under the impression that guns are not, indeed, deadly weapons designed with the sole purpose of making things dead, and believes that guns are similar to a hair accessory or a Gucci purse.

It appears my opponent disagrees with me that guns are for the sole purpose of making things dead. I’ve been shooting my whole life and have never once killed anything with the dozens of guns that have passed through my hands.

It’s just silly to compare them to purses and hair things. No response, as it’s an attempt to be derogatory and nothing more.

@Seek I got beat up by a wealthy lady with a Gucci purse once… Man, those things are well built! I made a comment that she was too… My younger dumber days… Needless to say she handled it.

@Seek I’m with you, we should start carrying rapiers around. I’ll even sheath it. Shouldn’t be any problems there right?

@El_Cadejo Hey, I could kill someone from up to 6 feet away, if I get a good lunge. A tall person would do even better. You can’t really sheath them, though. But it’s not like they have sharp edges, just that point.

What if you have a gun and holster that goes fantastically well with your outfit and ties it all together nicely? I know a woman like that in town. She has a holster that matches her different pair of shoes and purses. Quite the talk of the town…

Ooh! I know kumihimo now. I could carry a samurai sword and change the hilt-wrappings to match my clothes!

17 feet is the accepted distance where, if someone has a knife, you should have your weapon at a defensive posture.
Guns are tools, made for putting holes in things. Paper or flesh, the gun doesn’t care. What makes it a weapon is the mind of the user.
It’s ok to be proud of your firearm, or your coach purse, whatever, and show it off. But there is a place and time for everything

@GloPro Yes, people are proud of many things. I tend to not be very attracted to people who are overly proud of their big muscles, fancy cars (I have a lot of fancy cars by the way, because of my husband, and I prefer to drive my VW around town inconspicuously) and I am building a big house and I still wish I could have built the house so from the street it looks less ostentatious, but I was limited by the builder. For me it is partly being taught not to brag, partly not to want to entice bad people, partly tradition of superstition, and we could even reference that pride is one of the seven sins.

Place and time for everything is a good way to put it. I don’t go dripping in diamonds where it will stand out. Not that I have enough diamonds to be dripping, but you know what I mean.

I’m not sure why you keep going back to that your are responsible with your gun, the point is a lot of people aren’t. A lot of people are assholes.

@Seek You can’t open carry a sword, those are dangerous! Fantastic idea though…

Not going to lurk anymore.

@GloPro I’m having a feeling you carry your gun just to show off. As a non-American, I can’t understand why there is someone who is proud of a weapon.

You may be proud of it, but think about other people. How are they to react to see someone openly holding a gun? You may be responsible, but how can some random people know that? Guns aren’t like purses or hair or things like that. It has long been associated with death.

I keep mentioning I am responsible because some responses indicate the belief that I am not. I believe I represent the majority. There are more responsible and aware owners than not. You hear about the irresponsible ones in the media, but with 310 million guns in the United States the number of incidents is low.

I give up. Bottom line, I’m happy with the law the way it is here. I use it to my advantage to enjoy a hobby of mine. I don’t feel the slightest bit bad for doing so.

@Mimishu1995 You are incorrect in your assumption of me.

all of them claim to be responsible. hollow phrases, of no value whatsoever.

[mod says] The Original Poster has requested that this question remain in the General section of Fluther. As a forewarning, all off-topic and unhelpful responses will be moderated. We will try to preserve the conversation as best we can.

From here on: Please ensure that your responses are directly related to the main question “Why is open carry of firearms so controversial?” and the sub-questions asked in the description.

@SecondHandStoke 150 Posts since my last one yesterday mid-day. You asked me how many guns are too many? I’d say one more than that needed by the military in defense of the country.

@Hypocrisy_Central You said the gang-bangers would be happy with a disarmed police force. But gang-bangers are armed because of the easy availability of guns everywhere.

^So hunters, competitive shooters and the like can just go get fucked?

@Mimishu1995

Why wouldn’t one be proud of an example of precision engineering and quality workmanship?

Why don’t we see what happens if all those that do not understand firearms be asked to leave the thread?

@SecondHandStoke Leave what? And I think @Mimishu1995, @seek and myself are all referring to the fact that it is an finely engineered tool of killing. Why not collect.. say… clocks? Those old precision pieces are very fine pieces of precise engineering.

@cazzie You just don’t get it because guns don’t interest you. Why collect anything? Because it is interesting to you for some reason.
I find the technology, the engineering, the precision, the different nuances of different guns really diverse. Each model is different. They handle differently, shoot differently. Mastering a gun is a challenge. Learning a new gun is a fun activity. It has nothing to do with violence or killing. You mentioned people buy guns and leave them locked at a range. Obviously they don’t own them with the intention of killing anything. The Olympic sports involving shooting targets have nothing to do with violence. They are showcasing precision and endurance.

Do you feel the same about crossbows, knives, or compound bows? All are weapons. Bows are projectile weapons capable of killing from a great distance. Would you feel extremely unsafe and offended if you saw someone carrying a bow? Why or why not?

@GloPro ” Would you feel extremely unsafe and offended if you saw someone carrying a bow? Why or why not?”
I was actually going to bring up this point but didn’t want to derail. Yes, I would be a bit unnerved by it. “Why in the fuck do you need your crossbow in the restaurant?” would more or less be my line of thought.

@majorrich has it right, it’s fine to be interested in guns or anything else, but there is a time and a place for it.

@GloPro, I’m sending my kid to two days of shooting camp this summer. I get that it is a skill and my kid is actually a good shot. Norway is number one in ski-shooting. But guns are dangerous. They are used for killing food. They are not fashion accessories.

@majorrich I figured we had looked at this question from every conceivable angle and decided open carry wasn’t a good idea, but was unavoidable sometimes.
Har, har har, where did you come up with that? some people think it is a bad idea and some love it. I personally think people should be able to pack heat but keep them totally out of site. I don’t think some thug will try to rob a woman with children if he doesn’t know if she has a pistol or not. A friend of mine had a daughter who has is deaf, she was accosted leaving her evening class at college by some thug who must have felt because of she is deaf, he could sneak up on her; that she was easier pickings. He was thwarted by another student, but would he had even tried if he had an idea she might have been packing?

@El_Cadejo lets think about that….guns are illegal in Mexico….and yet they somehow manage to have a corrupt government….in a place where only criminals and cops have guns? How SHOCKING!~
You don’t think we have corruption going on in the USA?
You know Somalia has pretty restrictive gun laws also….

@cheebdragon Do you not realize that the US is a major reason that Mexico is as fucked up as it is?

Of course there is corruption here, but how do more guns solve that issue?

My point still stands from my first post though, Mexico is not comparable to the US in many ways, if you want to throw it in there, fine. Fact of the matter still stands that the homicide rate in the US is more than 3 times that in other western countries.

Care to make an argument about how that’s only because we have a border with Mexico so clearly all the violence is coming from there?

^^ Now seems to be a good point to mention that Mexico has a higher obesity rate than the US.

The ‘murica shit can stop now.

Out of control corruption is the reason Mexico is as fucked as it is.

@El_Cadejo… 3 times the homicides per capita, or three times the homicides by gun?

@GloPro Per 100,000 people. and 3 times is on the low side, for somewhere like Germany it’s 18 times more ,UK is 90 times more.

Ok, so your answer is 3 times the gun related homicides. Not homicides in general. And I saw different stats on the source I ref’ed earlier.

These are not completly on a lateral level when the population is also 5x greater here. In fact, there are many variables in play that skew those stats.

So much squabbling over figures.

While the Second Amendment is so quietly absolute.

@GloPro Country A has 100,000 people, 3 are shot, so that’s 3 for every hundred thousand. Country B has 300,000 people and 12 are shot, 4 for every 100,000. How is country B not worse?

^ I’m guessing you are not prepared to list the circumstances involved with these shootings.

It’s nitpicking facts to support your argument…..Let’s be honest.

@cheebdragon Clearly I am missing something. My point was comparing western countries to the US. By your own link it appears the US is significantly worse than all but a few European countries. I’m sure I’m just nitpicking there as well.

@El_Cadejo The social structure of the USA lags behind the rest of the Western world, indeed, which is glaringly apparent when you look at their health care system, education system, death by violent crime statistics and death penalty. Yet, instead of looking toward the more peaceful countries for example, they continue to try to make things up as it goes along. The latest ‘gun toting’ rules are just one example.

Then let’s call legal open carrying a sign of protest.

And remember class: One only considers a protest to be legitimate if one believes in it’s cause.

GloPro’s remarks are interesting to me because I feel much the same way emotionally about guns – love, fascination, etc. And I mostly enjoy shooting in the way GloPro describes, too – range unattended, wide open beauty all around.

But despite this shared enthusiasm for shooting, I have reached a completely opposite conclusion from GloPro’s about how they ought to be regulated: locked up at a range and available for rental range shooting and for hunting at first with a guide for x hours and then maybe eventually solo. Why am I willing to inconvienence myself and likely lessen my enjoyment of shooting at the closer, prettier, unstaffed range? Because my slight inconvenience and minimal lowering of enjoyment are peanuts compared to the harm unregulated guns do. Did anyone else read the wiki article trailsillustrated linked to. Goddamn horrific. And it’s incredible that that’s just one of hundreds of examples. Hell, the Port Arthur massacre was a copycat of a massacre from a few weeks earlier!

As to the home and personal protection argument, it’s a crock of shit with no data to back it up, only source-biased anecdotes and just serves to distract from the main point that the more guns are out there the more dangerous things become for everybody.

Why would you only compare it to Western Europe? That’s like comparing California to Antarctica.

because actual enforcement of the law is a prerequisite for comparisons

^^You need to shout that not whisper it.

@cheebdragon. I didn’t say ‘Western Europe’, did I?

Really?

@cazzie and I didn’t say I was talking to you, did I?

Wow! looking at @cheebdragon‘s chart, Western Europe and former Soviet states look like places Definitely NOT a place for open carry! given the density of law enforcement and their reputation for heavy handedness. Cross referencing that to firearm related crime, is interesting because these countries show a very high per capita firearms crime rate. I would think that would multiply the riskiness of open carry. Back to the Time and Place argument. Open Carry in Kazakhstan would… well in further thinking…. blend in with the rest of the population. Or perhaps get one perforated like a Swiss Cheese.

oops Eastern Europe

@wildpotato Hell, the Port Arthur massacre was a copycat of a massacre from a few weeks earlier!
Isn’t part of that problem the general apathy of people who may have some mental illness? The government would rather spend big on fancy parties for some Prime Minister, some fishing junket for politicians, or bridges to nowhere, etc. then to set up ways to pay for mental health screenings, counselors, etc. for youngsters from middle school up. If these loose cannons can be identified as loose cannons, it may be easier to keep guns out of their hands. But since no one really cares that much, you have guys deeply troubled ah la Seung-Hui Cho who has a clean record because he has yet to do anything, can go buy a gaggle of guns, wait three days, then go shoot up a campus.

However, would he (Cho) have tried it if he knew there were armed students in the classroom because he seen prior that they were armed because they open carried?

As to the home and personal protection argument, it’s a crock of shit with no data to back it up, only source-biased anecdotes and just serves to distract from the main point that the more guns are out there the more dangerous things become for everybody.
Show of hands, who believe that if there were student on the VT campus that morning who knew how to shoot (at least as good as Cho or better) Cho would have been able to pick off that many students like ducks at a shooting gallery if those armed students returned fire? I really want to hear someone defeat that logic. One man can do a lot of damage with a gun by himself.

@Hypocrisy_Central Ok, so you’re at Vtech and a man starts shooting. Everyone panics, your entire world is flipped upside down. Can you honestly say you could calm your mind enough to take that shot? What if you missed and just killed another student? Could you live with that outcome?

as I was saying, wannabe Rambos

@Hypocrisy_Central Seung-Hui Cho was diagnosed with mental disorders in middle school. Additionally, there were many red flags regarding his personality for years, including during his time as a Va. Tech. student. He was able to purchase weapons and ammo via websites and in person. There is something to be learned from this incident, and it’s that the system needs to have more controls and procedures in place across the nation.

My nephew was a student at Va. Tech at the time and lived on the same dorm floor as Cho. While not a witness to any of Cho’s shootings, it shook him up. He now owns a handgun when no one else in the family ever has. Had he had the training, owned the gun and witnessed what Cho was doing at the time, I still doubt that this sweet young man could have confronted Cho.

The solution is not to arm humans, concealed or open carry, but to ensure that guns are not available to those that have no business having one in their possession.

@Pied_Pfeffer Just look at how good we are at keeping them out of the hands of criminals…..problem solved. Eh?

@El_Cadejo Can you honestly say you could calm your mind enough to take that shot? What if you missed and just killed another student? Could you live with that outcome?
I would not be carrying a gun on me if I were not trained and confident enough to use it if I had to defend myself or someone else. That would be as stupid as carrying nunchucks trying to look dangerous and can’t use the things. I doubt I would be as cavalier as a cop blasting a bad guy, teen with a toy rifle, mentally challenged guy with a kitchen knife, etc. but I am not carrying a gun around to clean pigeons off statues. If I were not trained and wise enough to know not to try and take a shot when others are in line of the target and I, I would be a failure with the gun and a shame to my drill instructors. Since most of the other students would have been fleeing from him like roaches once the light is turned on, I don’t think a clear shot would have taken that long. Had I been silly enough to force a shot, if the 1st one killed another student but the 2nd shot stopped Cho, I would feel bad about the one I got accidently but happy that a dozen more were saved.

Cops accidentally kill innocent civilians all the time.

@cheebdragon How does that illustrate that more guns is a good thing?

Simple, because the days of needing to shoot rabid dogs, horse thieves, cattle rustlers, horses with broken legs, wolves at the door and savages on the attack are long gone.

People could get shot no matter who is holding the gun. It’s statistically unlikely, but people like to jump on that hoplophobia bandwagon.

Hoplophobia… there’s an ironic term. People are not afraid of weapons as objects. They’re afraid that they will be used. This is not irrational. They are being used. What’s the number now? 74 mass shootings since Sandy Hook?

What if one has hoplophobia and anthropophobia? No bandwagon for those folks. We don’t fear the weapons, we worry about idiots/criminals/crazies who have guns or access to guns that make it easier for them to kill. Nothing irrational about that. How about this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/las-vegas-police-killer-railed-against-police-government-on-youtube/

You don’t think they were fed a diet of fear and disillusionment? And they had plenty of guns and ammo. The shop keeper they killed was armed. The police they killed were armed. He had a felony record. He had plenty of guns.

If someone wants to hurt you, they will find a way to hurt you, armed or not. Do you constantly walk around in fear of every fucking person you pass on the street or who looks at you for more than a second? probably not. Why? Because you are afraid of the gun, not the person. If you were truly afraid of the people because they have access to guns, you would also be affraid that they could have a car, they could have a knife, a rope, a baseball bat. They could kill you with any of those things, it happens every single day and you don’t even hear about it because 6/10 murders don’t even make the news. The people you should be afraid of are the ones who will get you when you are alone.

@cheebdragon Your logic is so painfully twisted… No, I don’t walk around in fear of every fucking person I pass on the street. Know why? Because I live in a country with sensible gun laws, where ordinary citizens do not feel the need to carry guns around in fear of every fucking person they pass on the street.

Citizens carrying guns in public: it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. They are the ones who are afraid, and they are the ones creating the very culture that justifies that fear.

I second what @dappled_leaves wrote. And I will add that after the killing in Oslo 3 years ago, They weren’t talking about more gun control or more guns here, they were talking about better mental health services.

Just for the record hoplophobia is a word made up in the 1960’s by Jeff Hooper founder of the American Pistol Institute and Founding President and Honorary Lifetime Chairman of the International Practical Shooting Confederation.

@flutherother I saw that because I didn’t believe it was real and had to look it up, so I had to make fun. Now that term is bandied around like telling the girl who is fearful of being raped she must not like sex.

@flutherother Just for the record, all words were made up by someone at some point….shocking, right? Who knew they didn’t just magically exist?!?~

@dappled_leaves You don’t know who is walking around with a gun on them, I know several people who walk around armed, it’s very illegal in California. Laws don’t stop people, but you don’t fear it when you can’t see it, right?

Yup, again I say the weapon is the mind. The instrument could be anything.

@cheebdragon “You don’t know who is walking around with a gun on them, I know several people who walk around armed, it’s very illegal in California. Laws don’t stop people, but you don’t fear it when you can’t see it, right?”

I would say because if you don’t see the gun you forget about the perceived threat, out of sight, out of mind. Doesn’t make you any safer, but at least you have some peace of mind.

@El_Cadejo so you agree, it’s a fear of guns.

No.
The gun is the primary symptom of the wielder being deranged, dangerous, and having ill intent.

Why wouldn’t any sane person be afraid of someone with a gun?

@janbb Are you afraid of every police, sheriff, state trooper, and military person you see?

Yes.

So how does a situation resolve itself when a criminal has an AR-15 and ammo for days that he acquired illegally when cops carry batons and tasers?

*legally

@GloPro

I’d rather take my chances with a chaw compin’ southern drawin’, shotgun totin’ beer bellied Carolina deputy than the NYPD any day.

@SecondHandStoke Not me.

Why? What stereotype do you have of NYC police that you think they are going to harm you? Or, do you think they might stereotype you?

maybe he thinks the redneck, being retarded due to generations of inbreeding, is easy to defeat.

When I moved to Florida my grandma paid for me to take the autotrain because she did not want me driving through the south single, Jewish, female, Yankee with NY plates on my car. LOL. (I lived in MD, but my license plates were NY).

My dad – a now-retired NYPD officer, was shot four times before I was nine years old. Thankfully only in the Kevlar. Still left some nasty bruises. I never did ask whether he shot back.

@JLeslie

The NYPD is a state sanctioned gang.

Operating with total impunity, never in fear of their action’s consequences, bold faced liars (I’ve experienced this first hand) never leading by example by practicing what they preach (If I can’t park there NEITHER CAN YOU except during an active emergency).

Bloomberg’s personal Gestapo, a paramilitary organization.

I’m pretty sure that goes for all police departments everywhere in the United States.

@Seek Why haven’t you ever asked if he shot back? I’m so curious if he did.

Well, I haven’t seen hide nor hair of him since age 12. At the time I was much more fascinated in the way the lead had melted against the vest, and the colourful bruises on Daddy’s chest. I didn’t much care about the person that did it, because Daddy was home and it didn’t matter.

Somehow I missed the shooting in Las Vegas. I see that the 3rd victim was a man with a concealed weapon that was killed before he could get his gun clear. If he had not had a gun, he might be alive today. However, if he’d been carrying openly, he might have been spotted and avoided, i.e. alive.

It seems to me that if there is going to be concealed carry, there should be a (somewhat burdensome, police academy style) training course. Perhaps the instructors could save the would-be heroes from themselves, and weed out more of the mentally unstable. There are a lot of unstable people out there that remain untreated.

“However, if he’d been carrying openly, he might have been spotted and avoided”

Or more than likely, shot first.

Thankfully only in the Kevlar.
Thankful that the bad guys have not caught on to smuggling up some Kevlar along with those kilos of dope and the cache of Heckler & Koch MP5s.

Hypo, this would have been in a project in Queens. I highly doubt they had a “cache” of anything.

^ They would be some very poor dope dealers or spent too much on hochies and 22” chrome rims…....

@JLeslie

Stereotype? Meh.

I’m a well spoken, well dressed intelligent person living on the Upper West Side.

Nevertheless, “I do not consent to any searches.”

Relevant. https://medium.com/the-nib/how-to-tell-the-difference-between-an-open-carry-patriot-and-a-deranged-killer-511fcba05ace

^ Sarcastic political statement.

I NEVER saw THAT coming.

Like I stated above:

One’s protest is only considered valid if you believe in the cause.

We get it, you don’t believe in the cause. You can shut up now.

Who believes in the cause is beside the point.

You are aware that there are other people in the world than the protesters, right? And that those people have rights as well – like the right to be outside without worrying someone is going to blow their head off?

But if you worry about it and I don’t than are your rights really being violated? Maybe you just worry needlessly.

I never told YOU to shut up. You can bleat on all you like for what you want. Now THAT amendment I can get behind, but I guess you pick and choose yours.

Needlessly?

When there’s about one school shooting a week, and 10,000+ people being killed on purpose with guns each year, and now random people – people who I don’t know, whose intentions I’m completely unaware of – walking around grocery stores and churches and shopping malls with heavy artillery – you’re right, what could I possibly be concerned about?

How easy would it be for some whacko to march up into the middle of an open-carry demonstration and blow all those bastards away?

After all, if they were open-carrying legally, they wouldn’t have any of the ammo necessary to take him down before he got them.

Right. I get all of that. My point is that if you worry and I don’t, who can say your rights are being violated? Who makes that decision as to where the line is drawn? Consensus?

People worry about all kinds of things. Some very valid concerns. Others are propaganda driven. How does one determine what is a violation?

I want to respond but I’m not sure what your point is.

Guys carry guns. Guns go boom. Leave holes in people. People worried guys with guns leave holes in them. Maybe guys not carry guns outside where people see them. Make people happy.

I know I used a couple of multisyllabic words there, but I think you can get my point regardless.

DOWN GIRL, @Seek. I don’t see where @GloPro has passed discussion and entered inflammatory

I’m not sure we understand your point, @GloPro? The discussion was a little disjointed.

[Mod Says] This thread has been moved to Social at the OP’s request. Off-topic comments have been reinstated, but baiting, attacks, and discussion about moderation (which may have been labelled “off-topic”) will stay moderated. Remember that even in Social, responses must relate to the discussion and not be disruptive. Thanks!

I’ll just put my response very simply and then unfollow. I choose not to be antagonized and spoken to in a disrespectful manner. My use of the word ‘you’ in my following response is global, and not specific.

The bottom line is that if it is legal for me to carry my gun, I have the proper permits, and I am within the local legal parameters, then I don’t really give a crap what you think about me carrying my gun. I don’t know you, the world doesn’t revolve around you, and if you are uncomfortable and I am not then I am not the one with the problem. I refuse to go around rearranging my legal actions to cater to every fear anyone has.

I don’t carry guns often, but if I wanted to I would. I don’t live my life in fear of other people with a holstered gun, either. I’ve got better things to do and bigger things to worry about. The odds of nothing happening are in my favor and the statistics back up my odds. Your fears do not supersede my legal rights. Should the laws change I will follow suit. Until then, if I am minding my own business then so should you.

Parts of this discussion were great. Thanks to those that tried to stay open-minded and attempted to listen to different views.

@ibstubro

About the time she started claiming I don’t have rights.

Relevant: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/04/carry-a-gun-you-get-shot-more/

and @ibstubro when she told me to ‘shut up’.

The situation is very 0 and 1. The more guns about, more deaths from gun shots. It really doesn’t take a genius to work that out. It isn’t even counter intuitive. The NRA represents the gun manufacturers. This is a point often missed.

Looks like a bomb went off in here.

If bombs are outlawed, only outlaws will have bombs.
legalise military grade explosives now!

Actually, @cazzie, @SecondHandStoke threw in the “Shut up” comment.

^^ Restrictions on dangerous materials are in place because of their being difficult to handle safely.

You know this.

If this thread gets much longer IT will be the reason open carry laws are so controversial.

@GloPro
My use of the word ‘you’ in my following response is global, and not specific.
That doesn’t work here. In this place you have to be precise like a computer program, to say ”you” in the context of ”You people in general” or something like that is confusing to too many here. They see ”you” and they think it is about them personally. Just saying…...

…use the word “one” instead.

Jesus…

Oh good. Another straw man for people to chew on.

(didn’t I win this thread ages ago?)

@SecondHandStoke “If this thread gets much longer IT will be the reason open carry laws are so controversial.”

It’s funny you should say this as I’ve been thinking something along roughly similar lines. Early on in the thread, I claimed that it isn’t open carry that is controversial, but rather people flaunting that right for attention. At this point, one might think that the claim could be easily refuted simply by pointing to the 300+ responses that followed it. If someone were in fact to say such a thing, I don’t think I’d bother to deny it. Instead, I would simply point out that what has happened is that open carry has become controversial due to those who decided to flaunt that right for attention.

Indeed, this strikes me as a strong reason for thinking that the attempted protest was an abject failure. All it has done is bring further scrutiny onto open carry laws. Those who supported them still support them. Those who oppose them still oppose them. But now, a lot of people who never gave them a second thought oppose them as well. This is the opposite effect that any rational person wants their protest to have—unless they really are just doing it to feel cool or be intimidating (which would just play into the anti-gun side’s argument).

I mention this in part because you’ve been concerned with the “legitimacy” of the protest, whereas it seems to me that the effectiveness of it is more relevant. For the record, I think you are mistaken in claiming that whether one sees a protest as legitimate depends on whether one agrees with the cause. My opposition to blowing up abortion clinics has nothing to do with the fact that I am pro-choice, and I imagine there are many on the anti-choice side who would agree that such tactics are illegitimate. And I don’t think such tactics are very effective either. The open carry protests are not nearly so extreme, but they play almost as poorly to the general public.

@Hypocrisy_Central “That doesn’t work here.”

Sure it does. After all, such qualifications are themselves ways of being precise. One just has to be careful enough to state them before making whatever claims might be open to misinterpretation. It’s always easier to clarify in advance than after the fact. (Though as @SecondHandStoke noted, it’s not like there aren’t other options.)

When this thread his 350 I say we all draw down on each other, fire away, empty the clips and whoever is left standing, and left standing with out leaking from any holes, get to be right and choose what is right for the rest of us.

I totally read that as ”...go down on each other”.

Make love not war.

@Seek Understandable, with all that leaking from holes going on.

@SavoirFaire

“But now, a lot of people who never gave them a second thought oppose them as well.”

True. those of us that count on the rationality of others are so very often disappointed.

My comment about the legitimacy of protests is typical ‘Stoke fare:

Tongue in cheek based partly on objective observation.

I hereby announce that the Frito Bandito is the official spokescharater for open carry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frito_Bandito