What are your thoughts on attacking an opponent's traits to discredit them?

I think that the dogless or childless people will have a slightly different perspective than someone who has dogs or kids, but that doesn’t mean that the people with the dogs or the kids are better or smarter, or the other way around. Some people are smarter than other people, even if they don’t have the same experience (or the goods).

Example: Would you rather have an obstetrician, who is childess, help you give birth, or would you rather have a mother, who has no medical training, but who has 6 kids, help you to give birth?

I hope it wasn’t me who stated that a person’s position on parenting was invalid simply because s/he didn’t have kids. The arguments themselves should stand alone.

However, there are simply many things that are nearly impossible to truly understand without having experienced them. I may understand – conceptually – what it’s like to have Cerebral Palsy or a degenerative disorder, but the fact that I do not is not completely irrelevant to the discussion. It is relevant that while I may think I understand what it is like to grow up as a woman or African American in this country, the fact that I am a white male is relevant. This may apply to many situations, including poverty, chronic illness, etc.

Parenting is one of those situations where nearly everyone who has kids has a “holy sh*t!” moment, where they realize they had very little idea of what it really meant to have kids. From moment-to-moment living to the emotional changes that accompany parenthood – an intellectual discussion about it is like describing a piece of music in complete silence.

That said, I do think that many childless people can have great insights on parenting. But the fact that they don’t have kids is completely relevant to the discussion.

Sounds like Fluther gospel for the more neanderthal “pilgrims”

I always thought how difficult it would be to lose a parent. I never really knew how hard it would be until my mother passed away 6 months ago. The pain is so much more than I imagined. The people who have also lost a parent have been the most helpful to me because they understand the pain. I appreciate the kind words from those who still have living parents, but it’s just not the same as having someone know what I’m going through.

I’d prefer to get parenting advice from parents. I’d prefer to get planting advice from people who have planted the same type of plants I’m asking about. I’d prefer to get advice on moving to a certain area of the country from people who have lived in the area I plan to move to.

@jonsblond That makes sense. Sometimes it’s easier to be comforted by someone who’s been in the same place. That makes total sense.

With my experience with doctors, depending on the woman, I might just choose the mother with 6 kids! I’ve had some OB/GYN’s who were train wrecks. :(

Well, I think first hand experience gives a special perspective in regards to any case: civil riots, mountain climbing, parenting, combat, delivering mail. Still, first hand is not the ONLY perspective, and not always the best. An Alzheimer’s patient can give a lot of insight on how it feels to be cofused, then not so much, then confused. Their spouse, or other loved ones would have a more extensive perspective regarding some days.

Discrediting your opponent is the way to go, here or in politics. It might not be nice. It might not be decent, honest or pretty, but apparently many (most?) consider it an acceptable way to handle life. Here on Fluther, I’ve gotten so used to being called names, I’ve started posting them on my profile to keep track. I tell people all the time, if you’re going to call me a name, you’d better be original and come up with a new one or it doesn’t count!

@snowberry, NERFHERDER!!!!!!! Said with affection

Puttin’ that up right now…!

I think everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions and may express them when invited in a Q.

I personally think that this discussion should be closed. Nothing new or worthy of consideration is being posted.
marinelife (57798 )“Great Answer” (9 ) Flag as…

^^ ...& yet

A former (and brief-lived) Fluther user once tried to suggest that the answers of anyone here with less than a PhD in the subject at hand shouldn’t be taken seriously.

When I was a young teen, I went through a period where I obsessed about becoming a falconer someday. This was pre-internet, but I devoured everything I could find on the subject. I hardly thought about anything else. I absorbed a tremendous amount of knowledge that way, all without ever getting within 20 yards of a bird of prey.

Now, that knowledge wasn’t exactly nothing. I could have given some pretty good basic advice to someone who may have had the bird, but not the knowledge. But the fact is that this kind of knowledge is brittle; it fails when things don’t go according to script. Someone with this kind of knowledge has no freedom to put the script down and trust their instincts. That’s wisdom, not knowledge.

Someone who follows formulas and dictums may get lucky. Sometimes these scripts really do work. They’re not necessarily wrong. If you go on the web and search for how to temper chocolate, you’ll find loads of detailed, step-by-step descriptions of the process. In most cases, there’s nothing wrong with those descriptions. But I guarantee you that when you try to follow them you will often fail to temper the chocolate, even when you think you’ve done everything right. And I’ll tell you a secret: Even though I’ve worked with chocolate for most of my adult life, I’ll often fail at tempering too. The difference is that I’ll recognize the failure earlier, and I’ll know several ways to get from that failure to success. That’s chocolate wisdom. That came entirely from experience.

So advice can’t be rejected just on the basis of a lack of deep personal experience to back it up. It may indeed be a good approach to try, but with the understanding that it’s not wisdom.

Attacking an opponent’s traits to discredit diminish the chance to have potentially good ideas concerning the subject of discussion. Especially if you attack because the opinion made was neither silly nor ignorant but just happens to be in opposition to your own. That might just be akin to “bullying”.

Discrediting your opponent is the way to go, here or in politics. It might not be nice. It might not be decent, honest or pretty, but apparently many (most?) consider it an acceptable way to handle life.
That is unfortunately an absolute shame. When a person rejects an opinion, or revelation of something to me they are saying ”I am making an excuse not to see any reason in what you say”. Logic doesn’t always have to have 1st hand experience backing it up. I do not have to dive off a three story building with cardboard wings to be able to tell someone that might not be the wisest thing to do. There are some instances where one can bring their personal perspective to the table; such as I can relate more to the logic of which neighborhoods not to drive in late in what type of car, because either you would get accosted or pulled over DWB. Someone who would never be pulled over DWB may never experience or understand it, but that doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t have advice that might help a person avoid it or lessen the frequency it happens. To dismiss such advice because they have never been pulled over DWB, is just ignorant.

To use the children example:

If you don’t have children don’t tell me how to raise them. I don’t try and tell a carpenter how to build a house nor do I give a neurologist suggestions on how to operate on a brain.

I’d rather qualify a person than discredit them.

I actually don’t understand why the word “qualify” hasn’t been used on this thread yet. Seek advice from anyone qualified to speak on any particular subject. Ask for qualifications. If a person cannot qualify themselves, then they discredit themselves without any help from me.

The one thing I hate when criticizing something or someone is those people who always say “Well, could you do it better” or “I don’t see you trying it”.

It’s entirely possible, and legit to tell a person without experience in something that they may not understand, or cannot relate, but to go as far as to attack them on that basis, if indeed it was an attack, is lame, boring and cowardly.

Whatever the freaking case, any attack is bullshit. There was some dirty bitch long ago on AnswerBag who would attack people’s avatars whenever someone didn’t agree with her religious beliefs. Hopefully the incident which spawned this question wasn’t that goddamn ridiculous. Mind you, me calling some woman from years ago a dirty bitch is an attack, I’m no better, but hey, I gots da balls to see it baaahahaha.

@Blondesjon presents a good point though. If you don’t have kids, it’s probably not a good idea to tell others what you should do with yours. If you see a news article where some atrocity has been done to a kid, you know it was bad that this was done to said kid, it’s a given, and doesn’t make you a parent because you know that hurting kids sucks.
I’m all up for everyone discussing all sorts of things and offering insights though, whether they have the experience or not.

@Symbeline @Blondesjon There’s a time and place for it. Such as if I had no children, and the kid behind me on an airplane kept kicking my seat, you bet I’d ask the parent to control their kid. I wouldn’t hesitate!

@snowberry Agreed. But in this case, you’re not telling them how to raise their kid. There’s also the subject of, some people don’t deserve to have kids. Not parents with annoying kids who kick your seat no, but you don’t have to have kids to see that some people aren’t fit to be parents. In this case I’m going into shit territory, as in abuse and the like.

The only time I’ve really seen someone attacked for sharing their opinion is when the person without experience uses derogatory or inflammatory words in their argument. If you don’t have children and you decide to share your opinion with parents by telling them what they are doing is wrong or stupid or they are ignorant, then hell yeah I’m going to become defensive and discredit them.

Well yeah. If you get flamed for something, you defend yourself, or ignore and flag, whichever. As far as I’m concerned, this goes for anything.
I am answering on the idea of someone attacking without having being attacked, but this be gettin’ off track I guess. :/ I suppose I should know the whole story. Something tells me I don’t wanna, though baha.

@Symbeline I just used parenting as an example for my last response. I don’t know if there is anything going on elsewhere. I believe we are still on topic. :)

Roger dat, yo. :)

“If you don’t have children don’t tell me how to raise them. I don’t try and tell a carpenter how to build a house nor do I give a neurologist suggestions on how to operate on a brain.”

@Blondesjon This isn’t analogous since parents aren’t typically experts or professionals at parenting. Framing one’s parenting abilities as somehow analogous to an expert or professional artisan seems rather arrogant. If parents were to go to college for a few years to study how to be parents, then your argument may have some merit—but it doesn’t.

There’s also all sorts of theoretical understanding that can be acquired without ever having to spawn one’s own progeny first.

Am I the only one who’s curious about which thread it was?

Someone who’s interviewed many parents about an aspect of parenting may not have children but might have a much clearer picture of the breadth of experiences and attitudes regarding that aspect of childcare. Their knowledge might outweigh the experiences of one parent in terms of providing a more comprehensive understanding of that topic.

Don’t piss down my back & tell me it’s raining

Interesting discussion. I entirely agree about childless people having a different perspective. That’s a fact. I’ll admit, I was taken aback when the person on that blog admitted he didn’t own a dog. Nevertheless…his knowledge trumped that of all the more experienced people.

A few questions I thought of when reading through your responses:

* 1. Wouldn’t you agree that parenting is an experience which must greatly vary from person to person?
@hominid, you said parents often had a “holy sh*t!” moment. I think you may be talking about a certain group of people – thoughtful ones, perhaps you could even call most of them “good” parents. Simply having children won’t do it, in my opinion. All parents are different, all children are different.

* 2. Does having a child automatically qualify one for discussions on parenting?
What if you spent very little time with that child, wouldn’t you then be less qualified than other parents? Is a mother of four more of an authority than a father of two? When does knowledge from parenting books you may have read turn into “wisdom”, to quote @thorninmud? (Example: At age 13, I got a dog, and I was supposed to take care of her on my own. All walks, all feeding, all training. The level of training that dog has is higher than most other dogs I have met. Not all, but maybe 80% or so. Partly, that is due to my dog always having had a very sweet temperament. However, the other part is due to books. I had no experience when I got that puppy. I had simply read a lot of books, and I was lucky enough to read the right ones.)

* 3. How does anyone determine successful parenting methods until the child in question is grown?

May be a separate question.

* 4. How is what we all experienced as children factored in?
We’ve seen a certain parenting style up close, and we know how that style “felt”. That has a place in discussions, doesn’t it?

* 5. Do you think that, in some situations, it is actually beneficial not to have children of your own while discussing the method best applied?
Instinct is not necessarily what works best at all times, in my opinion. My instinct frequently tells me to run around, flapping my arms and yelling at the world – I’m a primate. I never give in to that instinct.

* 6. Can you come up with questions that absolutely couldn’t be answered by childless people?
It’s fine to say, “all of them”, if that is your opinion.

* 7. What are our thoughts on childless people who take care of children?

Thanks, GAs all around.

Sorry to all that are curious, but I don’t want to link to the thread. Some of the participating users are still active now, and things got heated. I don’t want to denunciate anyone. Besides – my question isn’t about that particular thread, or even about parenting. At least, it wasn’t supposed to be ;)

@longgone: “1. Wouldn’t you agree that parenting is an experience which must greatly vary from person to person? ”

Absolutely. Some people tackle parenthood as though it were a constant problem that needs fixing – as though they were somehow just given the responsibility for the kids and would rather just live their lives they way they did prior to kids. Then there are some people who acknowledge that they created a life and take the responsibility very seriously. Rather than a constant state of panic, their lives might be one of challenge and growth, and they likely accept that their lives are forever changed.

But I am more likely to find someone who really understands the challenges and joys of parenthood among people who have kids. This isn’t to say that my parenting is similar to many of my peers. My wife and I are freaks. We’re the home birth, co-sleeping, breastfeeding-until-kids-are-shaving people that are the punchline of many jokes (yes, my 2 sons were born at home). But I can be stuck with a dad somewhere and find some common ground about some ridiculous thing that kids do or that they have to do. To laugh and celebrate the unique challenges that face a parent has been an experience I have only had with fellow parents. My childless friends talking about babysitting their nephew for a weekend or having to get up because their dog was throwing up and assuming we’re talking about the same thing doesn’t work. It just doesn’t.

As for the “holy sh*t” moment – I did have that moment. And I had many of them. I can look a the “me” before kids, and how I used to spout off about all kinds of parenting-related topics, and I’m humiliated. I knew nothing, yet I was well-informed. I read.

@longgone: “3. How does anyone determine successful parenting methods until the child in question is grown?”

Great question – and likely a separate one. But I will just mention that we will all likely come at this from a different angle, and you’ll likely get a wide range of responses. But to answer briefly with a question – why would you think that evaluating an ex-child would be a way to identify/quantify the successful parenting techniques used?

@longgone: “5. Do you think that, in some situations, it is actually beneficial not to have children of your own while discussing the method best applied?”

I cannot imagine a scenario in which distance from the realities of parenthood would be an advantage in understanding a particular parenting issue and what methods to apply. Note: I do not want to give the impression that a parent who hits his/her child has nothing to learn from a childless opponent of corporal punishment. But there is nothing in particular about being childless that puts you in a position to consider the issue of corporal punishment better.

@longgone: “6. Can you come up with questions that absolutely couldn’t be answered by childless people?”

Nearly all questions related to how it actually feels to be a parent.

Anyway, great questions.

@Kropotkin . . . I don’t explain to folks, that don’t have my genitalia, how to masturbate nor do I tell the owners of marmosets how to care for their marmosets.

If I want to ask for opinions about menopause, am I going to ask a group of women in their 50s or am I going to go to the closest fraternity house?

@Blondesjon ”...nor do I give a neurologist suggestions on how to operate on a brain.”

Wait…

omfg

No wait…

… this I gotta see.

… oh dear god…

You can pick your nose, and you can pick your friends.

But if you try to pick my nose, you just picked a fight.

ditto for my kiddo

@longgone Was that childless person me? I came across that thread the other day. The comment wasn’t all that relevant to the question, but to have someone go after me like that just lowered my opinion of the attacker a lot, if that was the thread.

@Adirondackwannabe No, it wasn’t you. You weren’t even active in that particular thread :)

@hominid
1. “I can be stuck with a dad somewhere and find some common ground about some ridiculous thing that kids do or that they have to do. To laugh and celebrate the unique challenges that face a parent has been an experience I have only had with fellow parents.”

I see your point. It seems like you’re simply advocating for being familiar with children, though. You’re saying that theoretical knowledge of children will not help you feel connected, right? Would you, then, agree that one doesn’t need to be a parent to give advice, but should be familiar with children? Because that’s the part I couldn’t wrap my head around. Just by being a parent, you really don’t necessarily know much about children. In addition to being a parent, you need to be willing to learn and re-evaluate constantly. I imagine parenthood difficult in these aspects. I imagine parents to be searching for new ways to interact with their children, only to frequently find that what worked for the first child is not working now…or even that what seemed helpful yesterday is not working today. I’m saying that from the limited experience I have – correct me if I’m wrong.

3. “Why would you think that evaluating an ex-child would be a way to identify/quantify the successful parenting techniques used?”

Good point. Way too many variables, if you think about it. I do think it would be possible to determine a completely “off” parenting style, most likely by looking at the child/parent-relationship. But see, that’s what I mean. You’re a parent. Do you always feel like you know for sure what your child needs? Do you know that your parenting style works best – or even well? I don’t think you would answer very definitively to either of those questions. Yet, for many people, being a parent is tantamount to having the solution(s). Or rather, not being a parent disqualifies immediately.

I completely agree with both your last points.

Thank you for a great answer!

My daughter teaches second grade in a private school, but she has no children. She’ll be a GREAT parent, though, because she is patient, insightful, and handles her little charges so well. She’s adored by all the staff in her school, all the children, and most of the parents. But she’s had a few parents who could stand to take some parenting classes from her. Those kids were totally out of control, and the parents refused to hold their kids accountable. Ultimately their children were expelled because the parents refused to cooperate with the discipline policy of the school.

Yes, sometimes parents ought to take a lesson or six from certain childless people!

@longgone: “It seems like you’re simply advocating for being familiar with children, though.”

I’m not advocating anything. I’m simply describing my experience with parents vs. non-parents.

@longgone: “Would you, then, agree that one doesn’t need to be a parent to give advice, but should be familiar with children?”

The difference between being familiar with children and being a parent is night and day. It’s the difference between pulling a muscle in your back and living with chronic, debilitating back pain. But again – advice is advice. The content is all that matters. But honestly, 90% of what I hear from people who are without kids (and myself prior to having kids) is way off – mostly due to the fact that their familiarity with children has led them to believe they understand my children and they understand what being a parent means.

@longgone: ” I imagine parents to be searching for new ways to interact with their children, only to frequently find that what worked for the first child is not working now…or even that what seemed helpful yesterday is not working today”

Absolutely. But this “dance” is one of building a relationship and in a big way dissolving what you thought “you” were. And there is no break. Ever. Every single thing you do is done in light of this reality and responsibility.

But there is something else. I am a peaceful type of gentle guy. Very gently and non-violent. But as soon as my daughter was born and I held her, I knew something had shifted – something very deep. I would do anything for her. I would do anything to keep her safe and I would give my life in .00005 seconds if it meant that she could live an additional 1 day. There was a time (and other similar moments) that I have nearly killed another human being because they let their dog attack my daughter. I can clearly say that “that’s not me – or what I was”, but it is who I am now. This is not in any way an exaggeration, and it’s in no way related to a “familiarity” with children. It’s something else altogether.

@longgone: ‘You’re a parent. Do you always feel like you know for sure what your child needs? Do you know that your parenting style works best – or even well?”

That’s a big “no” to both of these. But I have chosen to listen to my intuition and follow the best of my intentions. And so far, I am happy overall with how I have been raising my children. It’s a constant challenge – but the best kind. I merely see my children as people – not potential-people. And we navigate this challenge or “dance” together – making all kinds of ridiculous mistakes along the way, I’m sure.

Anyway, I don’t think you and I are likely to disagree much about parenting. And I want to promise you that I don’t wish to come off as a “I was once an ignorant fool, but now I know better.” However, I was very ignorant regarding children – especially my children. I thought I knew about children because I had been well-read in child development, and had worked in a residential school for developmentally-disabled children. I used to describe my job at that school as “being a parent”. Ouch. It hurts me to think of how completely wrong I was. But really, there was no way for me to know. But I do know now.

@hominid

“The difference between being familiar with children and being a parent is night and day.”

Of course. I just find it surprising that, for the “connection” you mentioned, it is vital to be a parent. You mentioned “things children do”. If I was an au-pair, for example, I’d have lot of stories to tell. Maybe I am just misunderstanding your original point.

“90% of what I hear from people who are without kids (and myself prior to having kids) is way off.”

I am frequently amazed at the amount of ignorant advice from childless people. Some of them like to write books about the decline of our society, and they are not fun to read. However, I honestly believe I have seen about as much unhelpful advice from parents. The sheer amount is unbelievable. Of course, that’s what I consider bad. The parents I disagree with tend to be rather vocal. You probably have a similar problem – depending on where you live.

That’s part of my problem. As long as being a parent (what does that even mean?) is considered to be a qualification in and of itself, we are not truly looking at the content. I’m not talking about you, here. I’m pretty sure you would pay attention to content instead of contestant.

“It’s something else altogether.”

For now, I will simply accept that. I’ll get back to you in a few years! :]

Thanks for adding the last paragraph.

I want to assure you that I in no way believe I have parenting down. I’m sure I’ll be ready to scream or worse more times than I can even imagine. I just disagree with disregarding someone’s opinion because of who they are. I think it’s foolish of people to listen to tons of advice, then follow the piece of sage wisdom from a mother of six. As if that, alone, qualified her. I think we agree there, though.

@hominid, perhaps unwittingly, makes a very salient point here:And I want to promise you that I don’t wish to come off as a “I was once an ignorant fool, but now I know better.” However, I was very ignorant regarding children – especially my children. I thought I knew about children because I had been well-read in child development, and had worked in a residential school for developmentally-disabled children. I used to describe my job at that school as “being a parent”. Ouch. It hurts me to think of how completely wrong I was. But really, there was no way for me to know. But I do know now.

The point is, like every other parent here, he was childless before he had children, so he had the same level of parenting experience (or not, as it turns out) as the non-parents here.
There is an enormous paradigm shift in attitude and awareness that goes with having children. It’s different.

Being a parent, in itself, doesn’t really mean much honestly. I would not, for instance, consider my sister’s advice on parenting valid and I would strongly discourage anyone else from doing so, despite the fact that my sister has raised two children.

I just reread the details of the question and I am curious, @longgone, about what you meant when you said: “I just read through an old parenting thread, which made me think of asking this question. In the thread, a childless user was told not having children made his opinion invalid.” was it an opinion on a specific aspect of child-rearing or just a generally dismissive “you don’t have anything of value to add to the discussion because you don’t have children” type of statement?

@Darth_Algar: you are missing a point. Whether or not you consider someone to be a good parent or not, the fact they are a parent is the difference.

An analogy, if you all will bear with me:
You are going to Florida for a visit next year. To prepare, you research extensively the subject of swimming. You study the physics of displacement. You lie on a picnic bench and practice various types of strokes every day. You know what water is like on your skin because you shower and or bathe in a tub every day. You study the difference between fresh and salt water and buoyancy. You study the tides and the currents you may encounter. After a year you can be considered an expert on the subject of “swimology”.
You go on vacation, you enter the ocean, you finally swim. All of your education on the subject doesn’t prepare you for the sensation of swimming. It is an immersive experience.

It is different. It just is.

@canidmajor

I missed no point. The fact is that someone has fucked and reproduced doesn’t make them much of a parent.

@Darth_Algar: “I missed no point. The fact is that someone has fucked and reproduced doesn’t make them much of a parent.”

It does appear that you missed @canidmajor‘s point.

@Darth_Algar : So your sister had children that she put up for adoption? If she raised the kids herself, she parented. Reread my post. I said: “Whether or not you consider someone to be a good parent or not, the fact they are a parent is the difference.”

Did I say she did not parent? No. I said that being a parent, in and of itself, doesn’t mean much. I missed nobody’s point, but you two seem to have very much missed mine.

@canidmajor “The point is, like every other parent here, he was childless before he had children, so he had the same level of parenting experience (or not, as it turns out) as the non-parents here.”

That’s true, though it doesn’t answer the question of whether non-parents might still be well-suited to give advice.

“Was it an opinion on a specific aspect of child-rearing?”

Yes. The OP had asked how to solve a particular problem…let’s say his child was refusing to get dressed in the morning. Childless User (CU) suggested turning it all into a game, a couple of parents asked CU how many children, exactly, he had dressed, and suggested a) time outs or b) threats/spankings. Not the real thread, just an example, similar in course of events.

@Darth_Algar I don’t think you three are disagreeing. You all believe that not all parents give good advice. @hominid and @canidmajor just pointed out that being a parent changes perspective. At least, that’s how I understood it…I might be wrong.

@longgone ”@Darth_Algar I don’t think you three are disagreeing. You all believe that not all parents give good advice. @hominid and @canidmajor just pointed out that being a parent changes perspective.”

Which would mean that they missed my point, as my point didn’t really have anything to do with perspective. Though I will also say that I don’t necessarily agree there ether. For example: my sister, again. As far as I can tell she’s just as self-absorbed and “me first” as she was at 16. Her husband makes pretty good money, but her son recently had to have a tooth pulled because they “couldn’t afford” to have it filled. Yet she’s driving around in a Jaguar. And I know she’s far from being the only parent this selfish out there.

@Darth_Algar Still, her perspective has to be different, simply because she’s “one of them” now. She’s inside, looking out – instead of the other way around.

I completely agree, though, on that this does not mean her advice is helpful. It must be hard to stand by and watch. How old is your nephew?

@longgone

Sure, I guess. I mean “perspective” is a nebulous enough term that there’s not really any way you could be incorrect there.