Men, can you try to imagine what it would be like to be constantly wary and afraid of men when you're out in public?

So women are afraid of men because of sexuality? Honestly I realize that women get looks and stares but this level of fear indicates other issues.

May I ask you why you seem to dislike men so much?

just a hint: Most men would drop everything and come running if a woman needed help with anything. 80 year old grandmas included. It’s not sexual at all. It’s biology.

And here we have episode # 4 of the “men can’t possibly understand how women feel” drama.

You don’t want an answer. You want to rail about how evil men are.

Suppose I answered “yes,- that I do imagine it”. Your response would be “you can’t possibly, you are a male”.

Suppose that I answer “no, I can’t imagine”. Then you would accuse me of being unfeeling and uncaring.

Bottom line is that – based on the last four questions of yours on this topic – that men cannot possibly understand what women experience, no matter what we say and do. In other words, your question is rhetorical and no answer will ever be sufficient.

I’m not playing a puppet in your puppet show any more.,

I don’t dislike them. If I don’t know them I’m very wary of them until I get an idea of what they’re like. I’ve been through too many attempted rapes (2) and stalkings (2) and gropings and pinching and just stuff not to be wary.

@ARE_you_kidding_me : Not “sexuality”. Violence. I’m a little concerned that you seem to equate the two.

@candidmajor jeeze, read the last sentance of the op comment where she mentioned it was “all sexual”

Well, sexual violence is our concern. Or a man’s sexual interest could turn violent if he’s rejected. That’s happened to me, too.

@Dutchess_III well I actually understand your reaction then. Someone close to me was sexually assaulted and then mugged a couple of years later. She has ptsd as a result. Her fear however is not grounded in reality. Just because someone of a particular gender did something bad to you does not mean the rest are out to get you also. That’ll be how fear rules you the rest of your life.

Not really.

Probably the closest I can come is the unease I feel in a foreign country where I don’t know the neighborhood, language and people around me. I sometimes imagine that everyone is a potential threat. Is it like that?

I can understand using caution in those conditions, but to be down right afraid of strange men ,when most would come to your aid in the drop of a hat, if the need came.
Life is far to short to go through it like that.
But you do have to exercise caution, I don’t like Mrs Squeeky walking alone at night, because there are sickos out there, but don’t give them what they want, just use common sense.

That’s a good comparison, @rojo.

I don’t feel that they’re ALL out to get me, but I know they are out there and I have to be aware and ready. I can probably name 50 instances, or more, of unwelcome sexual behavior in my life time. One guy, who I refused, threw a full beer can at me at an outdoor party once. I was sitting down. Don’t know if he meant to hit me, but it landed in the crack of the cushion of the chair I was sitting on. He took off. The guy sitting next to me, and another guy, went after him. Don’t know the rest of the story.

I was never, ever rude or mocking. I was always careful to be polite, so I wouldn’t trigger exactly that kind of rage. Sometimes there is nothing you can do to stop it.

I lived on the street in the us in a really dangerous area, and I’ve been in some bad altercations. Just be aware and you will be fine. I’m not afraid of anybody, don’t and never did feel constant fear. I never felt targeted by men per se.

Maybe “afraid” was to strong a word to use in general. But I’ve been in situations where I was terrified.

@Dutchess_III so have I, as in I’m alone, the attack is imminent, but I have always seen it as isolated and it hasn’t made me distrustful of all men.

I’m not even distrustful. Call it kind of neutral. I just don’t trust a man until I learn that I can. And I’ve made a couple of mistakes in that area, early on, and almost got raped. Twice.

@Dutchess_III I’ve picked up on the terror before, and I wasn’t doing a single sexual thing. I was going up the sidewalk, and a woman and two children are trying to change a flat tire. I stopped to help, because those lug wrenches tighten the lugs big time. I’m carrying a briefcase, well dressed, and doing nothing threatening or sexual and we’re in the open in daylight on main street.. She was terrified of me. I could feel it. But other times I’ve walked women into dangerous places, and they trust me completely. What gives?

I’m not afraid of men. I’m afraid of women and men who act belligerent.

I know when I have to go into an apartment for a maintenance call or something I always leave the door wide open if it has a female tenant. Most are ok and will shut the door after me but occasionally you get that feeling @Adirondackwannabe mentioned even when we have met previously and I want everyone to be at ease especially in guntotin’Texas I don’t want anyone feeling trapped or threatened.

Good idea @rojo.

@Adirondackwannabe Just their own experiences I guess.

Rick kind of walked me into a dangerous place in downtown Kansas City. I was nervous, but sure he could fight off whatever long enough for me to get away.

“constantly wary”

I’m constantly wary of everything. Doesn’t mean I’m afraid. Doesn’t mean I worry. But wariness is an evolutionary advantage which allows my genes to be passed on. It’s probably part of the reason why any of us are even here to discuss it. Those who were not wary, were eaten by predators, and removed from the gene pool.

Or..maybe the gal was afraid you’d expect sexual favors in return for helping her. I’ve gotten that too.

Well, for us it’s a way to try to prevent an unwanted gene pool.

One time when I was in my teens, I ran out of gas on a fairly busy 2 lane highway. I started walking. It was probably 10 miles to the nearest station.
A car full of guys pulled off ahead of me. I told them the situation, and one guy said, “Hop in! We’ll take you to get gas!”
I said, “Um. No. But if you wouldn’t mind I’ll give you this $10 and you can bring it back to me.”
Two of the guys were really insistent that I go with them, and I kept refusing. One guy finally said, “You guys! Of course she doesn’t want to jump in a car full of men she doesn’t know!”
So they took my $10 and left.
A few minutes later a hypo shows up. I told him my story and he said, “Well, I don’t think you’re going to see your $10 again, OR your gas. I’ll come back by later to check on you.”
Well, the guys came back. The nice one even put the gas in my car for me. They were all asking for my number. I wish now that I’d given that nice guy my number, or gotten his number from him.

Of course not. I could try and say that I can imagine it. But to live it every single day is another thing altogether. What is important is not whether or not men can truly imagine what it would be like (this is unnecessary). It’s important that men identify that women feel this way and that their fears are justified.

I don’t know how many times I have been walking alone at night (on campus at college, for example), and there was a woman walking ahead of me. Her fear was palpable, and there was little I could do to assuage her fears. It was entirely rational for her to be concerned that I was there. If you are a woman, think for a moment what it may feel like to be a man who by simply walking at night, you rightly are assumed to be a threat.

Even dating is a risky act. Most men are significantly stronger than women. And it just so happens that the physical characteristics that women find attractive in men are precisely the ones that can do a woman damage. There are evolutionary reasons for such instinctual attraction, but it doesn’t make the dangers of the power difference any less real. We all know women who have been assaulted by even the most close men in their lives.

The fact is: men are a danger to women, but most women put up with it. They date, marry, and reproduce anyway. They birth future men, and we all hope that we are raising men who will use their physical power in responsible ways. But the statistics are there. In the words of Louis CK, “How do women still go out with guys, when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We’re the number one threat! To women! Globally and historically, we’re the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women. We’re the worst thing that ever happens to them!”

Really? You won’t get in an elevator if there are only men in it?

I’m a man and parking garages give me the heebie-jeebies. I’m from a rural area where there are few, and I’ve seen so many people attacked in them on the TV. I also avoid dark streets and bad neighborhoods. It’s just common sense.

Strong, empowered women do not share that blinkered, old fashioned approach to men, just the way it should be.

I, as a woman, can’t imagine living that way. I was in an elevator with four men just this morning. No problemo. I don’t look at every man as a potential threat. I also am not under the impression that all men want to have sex with me or sexually assault me if they don’t get what they want. Sounds a bit egotistical to me, in fact. What good would it do me to live in fear of men? That level of paranoia sounds exhausting.

GA @hominid.

Yes, really @ibstubro. I might now, but not when I was in my prime. Someone just told us that she knew of a woman who was attacked in an elevator.

It’s not a level, not a paranoia, @livelaughlove21. It’s more of an awareness. It’s a reality and the more bad experiences you have the more aware and cautious you become.

I was hit on for the first time when I was 13 years old, by a man my father’s age, as I got a pop from the pop machine. It didn’t get any better after that.

When I was 14 we were visiting my cousins at a lake in Oklahoma. I took a boat ride with one of the family members that I didn’t know. He was 16. The whole time he talked about his dick and told me he could rape me and throw me in the water and no one would ever know.

When I was 16 I had a flat tire. Some guy stopped to help, even though I didn’t need help, then got angry when I refused to have a drink with him.

When I was 17 a guy threw a full beer can at me for rejecting his advances.

When I was 17 or 18, I agreed to slow dance with a guy I didn’t know. He grouped me. Never slow danced with someone I didn’t know again.

When I was 19 I got trapped in a car by a guy who said he was going to rape me. But he didn’t.

When I was 20, in college, I had stayed the night with my boyfriend. He went to work the next morning. At some point during the day his room mate shoved me face down on a counter and dry humped me.

It was never fucking ending and I didn’t DO anything. Nothing at all.

@Dutchess_III I’ve had all that and more and so have many men, that was then, this is now. I’ve been helped and assisted and had great relationships with men and I don’t look at them as a threat all.

I’ve always had great relationships with men.

don’t have that problem any more @trailsillustrated, although I know that any woman can be raped. I’m not AS worried, but old habits still linger. I wonder if any of those habits kept me alive. Probably did.

No less than fifteen minutes ago, walking the dog… couldn’t wait to get back and share what just happened.

Come around the corner and BAM! There she was… “That’s new”… thinks I to myself. Notice I didn’t say “she’s new”. I’m in my hood, my turf. Anything new is a “that”.

Oh man (thinking silently) fucking hot. Still a hundred feet away, the spandex was long and tight. And as fate would have it, I was heading straight between the lines.

Cross the street, look away, look away, look down, look away… quick look up… look away, look-a-way. It’s dark, I’m in black jeans with black hoody, big ferocious wolf dog attempting to drag me over to meet the new neighbor’s pooch. Pull back pull back, look away, look away… the fluther dolls will NEVER forgive me… guilt trip”… not now!

“Hi”
.
.
.
.
uh… smiling “Hello” I return.
heart boom chica chica

“That’s a beautiful beast you have”!

“Oh thanks”....
heart boom chica chica boom chica

“What is he”?

“Just a mut”...
flatline

“Aren’t we all. He looks hard to handle. I bet he likes to keep the pace going”.

“uh, erm, yip”.
BOOM BOOM chicachicachicachicachicachicachicachicachicachicachicachica… Looks for wedding ring… “Your dog”?

“She’s a pup.”

LEASH TANGLE!... YES!!! “Oh no” I says convincingly… “Sorry mam”.

Laughing, “That’s OK. My name is Mxxxx”

“Pleased to meet you. I’m Clyde”
BOOM BooM boom, chica, boom boom, relaxing now.

“Hope to see you around Clyde. Nice meeting you!”

“My pleasure. Good night”...
_______________

This was only the third time today that I fell in love. Some days are more. But I’m trying to be a good man so I don’t feel guilty around fluther ladies.
_______

Point being, sorry, but men have thoughts that just run through our minds and there is nothing we can do about it except try to control them. Consider it a disease. No, a curse. I’m not sure if there will ever be a cure.

Good for you RealEyes!

@Dutchess_III I wasn’t projecting a single thing. She was making me nervous because she was so scared. And there was no way they knew how to change the tire. They didn’t even have the emergency brake on.

I totally believe you @Adirondackwannabe. I think that may have been simple basic instinct, because she had her children with her. In the wild, a meeting between a strange male and a female with cubs or children not belonging to him can spell disaster.

You know, it wasn’t ALL bad. One time I went to a steak house for an end-of-the-season dinner with my bowling league. I knew they had reserved a separate room, so I looked in the first room I came to. It wasn’t them. There was a guy facing the door when I glanced in. He was in the act of lifting his wine glass to his lips when he saw me. He got this stunned look on his face. His eyes went wide, his mouth stayed open, and he slowly set the wine glass back down, He didn’t even realize he was doing it. I gave him a smile. :D

@Dutchess_III Thank you. That’s important to me. I like to think I have a good heart.

@Dutchess_III It just seems quite odd that you’ve had so many of these bad experiences. I’m 24, no supermodel but attractive, and can’t name a single moment like that. I’ve had my fair share of creepy glances and getting bad vibes from a guy or two, but nothing that would make me scared of men. It may be your reality, though I’m unsure why, but it’s certainly not mine.

This is not a criticism of you, @Dutchess_III.

When I was young and dumb I went to NYC with a friend of mine. We were 18, 19. Our first night there, we walked up Park Avenue at, maybe, 1:00 a.m. We actually had a van of bohemian types stop and ask us directions – out walking at that time of night, we must be locals, right?

Conversely, I have a distinct memory of one family we met. Dad on the street side, mom on the other side and a pre-teen boy and girl in the middle. Hands locked and faces anywhere from steely to terrified. I remember thinking, “Geeze, what marks! What rubes! They’ll be the first ones to find trouble cause they scream naive hicks.” People can invite trouble by their demeanor.

That said, I have to ask why you didn’t develop your wariness sooner, @Dutchess_III? I suspect you liked being a free spirit, that you hated restrictions, and you liked to flirt. I would suggest that now that you’re ‘of a certain age’ that you can have that cake and eat it too.

I have seem you give person information here on Fluther that I would never feel comfortable giving. You are still playing outside the box. Nice if it works, but if someone hacks your ID, you have to knuckle down?

@livelaughlove21 I wonder the same about me and homosexual men sometimes. Been harassed countless times since my early teens. I’ve described numerous violent episodes on fluther throughout the years.

I wonder sometimes, if the worst of the attacks didn’t instill some degree of confirmation bias into my brain. Perhaps some of the episodes weren’t as bad as I remember. And I have numerous homosexual friends and coworkers in my business. But man, I’m still wary.

I can make a list like @Dutchess starting with being raped by two boys who were supposed to be my friends when I was 15. It happens. :(

@jonsblond I can’t give that a GA, I know it happens, but it is so wrong. :(

I was also punched in the eye by a girl when I was walking out of my German class when I was 16.

Jerks are jerks.

That summarizes up what sucks in life. Jerks are jerks. Nice.

THis whole thread is disturbing. My besties are men. I’m with @livelaughlove on this one.

@livelaughlove21 I’m sure much of it was because I was beautiful and had a damn near perfect body. Some men are like, “With a body and a face like that she must really WANT sex.”

@ibstubro those were all of my learning moments, when I learned “Don’t do that. Don’t do this.”

And no, I didn’t like to flirt. I sure wasn’t flirting with some guy my dad’s age at 13. I didn’t even know what flirting was.

I didn’t flirt with my cousin, or whatever he was.

I didn’t flirt with the guy who offered to change my tire. I told him I knew how to do it, and didn’t need help.

I sure as hell didn’t flirt with my boyfriend’s room mate, because I didn’t like him.

No. I did not like to flirt. Anyway, I didn’t need to. I just needed to sit there and within 10 minutes half the men at a party would be around me.

“No. I did not like to flirt. Anyway, I didn’t need to. I just needed to sit there and within 10 minutes half the men at a party would be around me.”

I suggest that there is a vulnerability or sexiness about you that you have not acknowledged, @Dutchess_III. An “openness” that men misenterpret, even. You project an uncommon vulnerability, even here on Fluther.

And I admit to being a shameless flirt. It’s just fun.

Oh, I have no doubt that I was sexy, and looked sexy, no matter what I did. As I mentioned before, I actually tried to downplay it most of the time. And I honestly believe that men saw some of my behavior as flirting, when there was absolutely none intended. i mean, the incident at the pool table…I’m sure many men thought I played pool just to show off my butt (flirting) and didn’t take notice of the fact that I was pretty damn good.

“Oh, I have no doubt that I was sexy, and looked sexy, no matter what I did. As I mentioned before, I actually tried to downplay it most of the time.

I think we’re getting close?

Everyone can report these types of harassment as kids and young adults. Beauty might get a little more attention but I can can tell you from personal experience it’s not a sole cause of sexual harassment.

That’s modern thinking, @trailsillustrated. Didn’t cross my mind to report it in the 70’s when most of it happened.

Yes, most of the time. There was NEVER a time that I dressed provocatively. My boyfriend at the time requested I buy “a little black dress.” I think the sexiest I ever got was when i wore that short black dress (“short” meaning 4 inches above the knee) and black hose and red high heels, with a red jacket of some kind over the dress. The neck line was just a curved neck line. I expected to get a reaction from it, and I did. We went to a jazz club. I was in my early 30’s then, and fully aware of the reaction I was going to get, but felt protected by my boyfriend.
I wasn’t in the least surprised when he slipped off to the bathroom and I was instantly hit on by two different men in the short time he was gone.

Here is me at 18, with my girlfriend, ready to go clubbing. That’s not what I wore to her house. Always, I ‘d get dressed and ready to go, go to her house, and she and her sister would cluck, cluck, and drag me back to their bedroom and use me as some sort of fashion dummy. I had to veto a lot of what they wanted to do. I would have never worn a neck line as low as the one my friend is sporting.

I don’t live in fear, but I get uneasy, and when I become aware of my anxiety I immediately assume the worst.
But I’m not always aware of being uneasy around men. A group of men makes me really weary, but I can take one man.

When women are not afraid to be with strange men, or fear being accosted walking alone in heels or expected to cater to the will of men, we will no longer need feminism.

It’s not even alone walking in heels. It’s simply alone. No matter the age or the attire.

What a sweet photo. I didn’t think about the 70’s but I think it’s probably different now.

@Dutchess_III I haven’t had all the terrible experiences you have had, but I understand your caution.

Up in the thread, @ARE_you_kidding_me wrote:

Someone close to me was sexually assaulted and then mugged a couple of years later. She has ptsd as a result. Her fear however is not grounded in reality. Just because someone of a particular gender did something bad to you does not mean the rest are out to get you also.

Her fear is very grounded in reality, because it happened. It doesn’t get more real than living through something.

Unless you know for sure that a man is safe, there is always a possibility that he may be unsafe. In most cases, it’s a remote possibility. Most men are safe. But until you know for sure, that possibility is lurking around.

For perspective, three of my close friends have been raped by people they knew. They were devastated. Two of them were young teenagers when it happened, and in the third case, he drugged her drink when they were on a date. It took each of them years to tell someone. One of them described it as a “dark night of the soul.”

Women have a very real chance of being raped at some point in their lifetimes.

The wording of the question is “wary and afraid,” and that doesn’t reflect my day-to-day life. However, there is a constant background awareness of my situation and surroundings. I don’t live in fear, but it visits sometimes.

It goes beyond the common sense awareness a man might have when walking through a rough neighborhood. I’t’s like the whole world is the rough neighborhood. Mundane situations like taking the train alone, or going for a jog, have the potential to turn unsafe. It’s probably not going to happen, and everyday life isn’t scary. But the awareness never leaves, because the possibility is real.

The chance of getting bitten by shark is one in 11.5 million,, but that’s considered a rational fear. Here’s what baffles me. If women are wary of our surroundings, we are called paranoid, people say we hate men, or it’s “what about the nice men?” But if we don’t follow the rules (being drunk, walking alone, being alone with a guy) and get raped, people ask “why weren’t you paying attention?” or “What did you EXPECT to happen?”

I think humans generally have trouble empathizing with things that don’t affect them. If you try to understand someone else’s experiences, it can shake your worldview. Things that you felt safe and secure in believing come under doubt. It’s hard to do that kind of soul-searching, so most people don’t try.

A good place to start is believing someone when they tell you about their life.

I tried to imagine it but it feels more like a mental disorder (an irrational phobia) because around 80% of all sexual violence are committed by an offender who was a family member, intimate partner or friend, so you should sooner be afraid of your dad, husband, brother or boyfriend than a couple of strange men in an elevator.

Also, all forms of sexual violence statistically occur much more among those who are poor, live in bad neighborhoods/rural areas and are under the age of 24, so I wouldn’t go around talking on behalf of other women because I don’t know a single woman who behaves as you describe it.

@Adirondackwannabe I was going to say the same thing as @Dutchess_III said. She was with her children. You hear all the time about child abductions. When a mom is with her kids she feels extremely vunerable. Some serial killers were often described as having manners and being well groomed. It’s part of the act to get people to put their guard down. Broad daylight doesn’t mean a thing these days. I remember hearing a story about a woman being raped on a public street as people drove past her to work. She was crying out for help.
@Dutchess_III I am not a guy, so I do understand. Heres the point that people are missing. How many times do you have to suffer from bad situations before it would be considered enough to not trust people. For me it isn’t just guys. It is people in general. No, I do not walk around in constant fear, but I don’t let my guard down and put myself in situations where I may be in danger.
I dont’ go to dark place to park my car. I am always looking at my surroundings. I cross the street if someone is behind me. Hell, I don’t even trust cops. You have young people running around punching people for kicks and giggles, you have cops tasering and or beating up and raping women, and you have con artist and pick pockets and purse thieves. You have people knock on your door and pretend to be sales people who have gone in and raped and killed old people in their own home.
Can be male or female.
I trust no one but those I really know.

@Dutchess_III “I’m sure much of it was because I was beautiful and had a damn near perfect body.”

“Oh, I have no doubt that I was sexy, and looked sexy, no matter what I did.”

…wow. Well that certainly answers one of my questions, though not the one you responded to.

When I was sharing an apartment in college, I woke up in the middle of the night to find a man talking to me. I got the idea that I had been talking in my sleep. When I realized what was happening, I was terrified. I pretended to be sick, and told him to go away. Fortunately he believed me.

Apparently my roommate had given a friend one of her keys, and he had come by for something. I assume it was sexual in nature, but I don’t know. The experience was extremely traumatizing.

I really don’t understand women not being wary even if they haven’t been through anything. Although, the stat is 1 in 3 women have been through something, so it is a lot of women who have.

Do you all let your 8 year olds play outside and wander a half mile away? The chance they will be abducted is extremely small, much smaller than the chance a woman will get harrassed or worse, yet people all over America believe it can happen even though it never happened to them or anyone in their family. Some kids do still play far from home or walk to school far from home, I am sure we will get that response from some, but there will be a ton of people who don’t let their children do it alone.

Walking onto an elevator with 4 seemingly unrelated men in a busy building isn’t going to trigger anything in me in the least. One man at 7:00 am in an otherwise empty building would probably make me nervous. A man “following” when no one else is around might make me aware. I am aware he is there and listening to see if his pace is increasing.

I was raised to lock my doors, not leave things visible in my car, and not be distracted while walking. Today almost everyone is distracted while walking. They are texting and listening to music. It makes you more vulnerable. I do it myself if I am in a very public place. I don’t do it walking home alone in the dark when the streets are empty. I don’t sit in a parking lot with doors unlocked texting and fiddling around with something in my car. I’m not nervous, I just don’t do it as a matter of course.

How many things can I name theft and bodily harm related of people I know? Way too many. Daughter of a coworker left her doors unlocked while driving. Stopped before turning onto the main road and a guy jumped in her car with a weapon, made her drive to a construction site, and raped her. Sister if a girl I went to school with brutally raped and killed. Friend of a girl I worked with a man came through her second floor sliding glass door and raped her. Girl I worked with assaulted and robbed in the mall parking lot where we worked. My aunt attempted rape, she faught him off and then he left when more people started to enter the building. I was “mugged” once, but not assaulted at the time. Daughter of a close friend of ours gang raped. Then there are all the date rapes I could list. Again, people I know, or people who are very close to people I know.

I went to college in Michigan, and just to follow with the stereotypes a lot of those guys in middle America either couldn’t dance or wouldn’t get on a dance floor without a few drinks in them. They would wait for slow songs and then finally ask a girl to dance. I danced with a guy once, he was trying to rub all up against me. Gross! There is not one guy I want to do that on a first meeting with him. If you can’t fast dance then you have to at least take me on a date before I will slow dance with you if you are a hot sweaty drunk guy who barely knows a dance step.

I have had what I will call minor crap happen to me compared to the brutal assaults and rapes I talked about above, I won’t list them all, because this is getting long. I’m not traumatized, just prudent.

I can’t imagine that, and I’m a woman. The only situations in which I feel threatened is walking around alone in the dark or, occasionally, when out clubbing. You must live in a very different area, experience men as more of a hazard, be “too nice” or, of course, you may just have been unlucky.

A scowl works wonders sometimes. In Sweden this summer, some guys were attempting to follow my group of four (!) and our three (!) dogs. My friends had been too nice before, talking to the most annoying one, because he seemed all right. When he wouldn’t leave us alone, I turned around, gave him a menacing stare, and said, “We have to leave now. Bye!” He replied, eloquently, “No bye!” – but then turned and left us alone.

The dogs helped, I’m sure. But the assertiveness convinced him.

@longgone But there you go. Walking alone in the dark, occasionally at a club, give some guy a little attention and he gets weird. I too have told men no thank you or good bye with a tone to let the, know they should leave, and they usually do. You aren’t paranoid, but you believe a bad thing can happen right? What if you had to walk into a dark parking lot alone with regularity? What if your 22 years old and go clubbing quite a bit? I think @Dutchess_III and @jonsblond and I and some others are saying stuff can happen and we are aware of it and believe it, and that’s all. It’s just a reality for us, just like I think it is a reality for you.

@Haleth I assure you her fear is not. You don’t know all of the details. This is not simple fear, it’s ptsd. This person cannot even wear a seatbelt or go to the dentist because they trap her and get in her space. Those are not rational fears based on what happened.

@eno I would guess that the sex abuse stats for family members and people we know have more to do with children being sexually abused than adults. I don’t know how those stats really roll out, but that is what I would assume. The OP and myself aren’t even really addressing that I don’t think, I’m not, although obviously that sort of experience in childhood can traumatize or scar people to not be trusting.

@JLeslie I’m not naive enough to think that, just because nothing like that has happened to me before, that it never could/will. I am not under some impression that I’m invincible or that I could easily defend myself against some dude that’s getting handsy. Maybe what you call “wary” is normal to me, so it’s not something I usually think about. I’d call it “aware,” and it’s not just men that I’m aware of. Women can be just as dangerous in the right situation; maybe not sexually, but violence is violence.

I just don’t look at every man I see as a potential rapist or sexually violent predator. If I’m walking out to the parking garage at the end of the work day and there’s just one guy behind me and we end up alone in the stairwell together, I don’t think, “oh no, this guy might attack me.” I’m aware of his presence, but the only thing I assume is that he parked upstairs too, as most of us in the building do. When he exits the stairwell at level 5b and I continue on to my car on 6b, I don’t breathe a sigh of relief. My assumption was clearly correct, so I go about my business as usual.

I should also say that I don’t go out clubbing or to bars and I’m married, so my husband is usually with me if I’m out at night just because we’re usually together when we’re not at work. However, I did go to college and I did take night classes, after which I had to walk nearly a mile to get to my car at night with not many people around. It’s a little creepy, sure, but not because I’m wondering if every single guy I see walking is going to rape me. Being alone in the dark outside is creepy for most people, I’d think.

It’s the wording of this question that’s so odd to me. Okay, so Dutchess has had a lot of experiences I haven’t, so she fears strange men. It’s not up to me to decide if that’s normal. However, she worded this as if it’s how all women feel. It’s simply not.

As for being “beautiful” or “sexy” with a “perfect body,” I know quite a few beautiful women. Some might say that I’m one of them (though I’m too hard on myself to agree – the ass and legs are pretty great, though, I’ll give myself that considering how hard I’ve worked to get them that way). They don’t all have a past riddled with sexual assaults. Rape isn’t about sexual attraction anyway; it’s about power. Unattractive women get assaulted as well, believe it or not.

@livelaughlove21 I think you are actually basically saying the same thing @Dutchess_III is, and I am for that matter.

The point is the majority of men NEVER think about their safety. Or, think about it so few times in their life it is barely worth mentioning. This Q comes from a string of Q’s where some men don’t understand that women feel vulnerable. Not that we walk around paranoid, but when a man does something suspicious, forward, or takes advantage by actually grabbing our ass or even just being too close in our personal space, we have to be aware.

No need to guess. The study makes it clear that it is every female above 12 years of age. Here link

females who were age 34 or younger, who lived in lower income households, and who lived in rural areas experienced some of the highest rates of sexual violence.

78% of sexual violence involved an offender who was a family member, intimate partner, friend

So like I said, unless you’re poor, aged below 34, and live in a bad/rural area, most women don’t have a rational reason to be wary and afraid of strange men. Hence, it is more of a mental disorder for someone who is afraid.

Hell, you’re much more likely to be harmed and killed by heart disease and cancer than sexual assault. Logically, you should be wary and afraid of that than sexual assault, but humans aren’t always logical.

@eno On your chart around 3 in 1,000 have had some sort of sexual threat or completed rape per year. There is also the stat I mentioned 1 in 3 in their lifetime. Women don’t think in terms of their chances in a given year. Plus, sexual assault is incredibly underreported. Moreover, I am not just talking about actually being assaulted, I am talking about things like being harrassed. Guys grabbing our ass, catcalling, commenting on our breasts, and on and on. Also, as you said, it is situational, so if I am in a situation where danger is more likely the stat is not 3 in 1,000 in that situation. Averages are tricky.

Heart disease is 1 in 3 also in a lifetime.

@JLeslie “The point is the majority of men NEVER think about their safety.” Now that is just you talking out of somewhere. We’re constantly aware of it and most of us take precautions. The difference is we treat precautions more like engineering & safety controls. Once they are in place we go about our business without fear knowing should a situation occur we are somewhat prepared for it.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Women too. The thing is we have more sutuations where men actually do something. How often are women catcalling at you? Drunk and too close to you? Trying to talk to you when you aren’t interested? Looking you up and down? As a man do you feel able to physically overpower a woman pretty easily if you want to?

3 in 1,000, yes. Your point? Doesn’t change what I said.

The 1 in 3 statistical study you’re quoting is not peer-reviewed and has a lot of biased, agenda oriented organizations quoting it. I don’t accept that as evidence.

Exactly, women don’t think in terms of their chances which means they’re behaving impulsively/illogically. It is based on an irrational fear.

You may not be talking just about assault, but the entire question is about fear of being sexually assaulted by strange men. Although, I can look up harassment statistics as well. I’m sure it is going to be similar to the sexual assaults in that it will be very categorical and specific.

The situation (the criteria to be a victim) is very specific, though, which means sexual assaults do not apply to most women, hence the likelihood of whatever you may perceive as a threat is just your irrational fear talking.

@JLeslie I understood what you are saying. I get that some women feel vulnerable around unfamiliar men. That’s just one situation. When you say “men never think about their safety “I have to disagree and feel 100% confident in doing so.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Never might be a strong word, but it is so much less than women having to think about it it is hard to say it is anywhere near equal. Plus, men are probably close to never afraid of other women, it would be more likely they worry about men causing some sort of harm or robbery or something. It’s still the men that are the majority of the threat, isn’t it? So, unfortunately for good men they get a little more unwarranted scrutiny at times, especially by women.

I don’t feel vulnerable around unfamiliar men, I would not make that blanket statement, I feel vulnerable in certain situations, and those situations come up more than most men realize I think. When I say constant I don’t mean daily, but how often would something have to happen for you to use the word constant? Every week? Every month? Every year? I’m definitely in situations like that more than once a year. Probably several times a year would be accurate. Whether there is an actual threat, it is a small percentage of the time, but I don’t know which time is the time when I am in the situation.

@JLeslie I may agree, to some extent, with what you’re saying but, as usual, Dutchess and I are not in agreement. Just read the question – yes, she is saying that women are living their lives constantly afraid of men they don’t know. It’s just not true.

Men aren’t concerned for their safety? That’s just ludicrous. Perhaps they don’t worry about being sexually assaulted, but men are violent toward other men quite often. Most gunshot victims are men, shot by other men. They should be just as aware as women are in a situation where they can be harmed by another person. Not paranoid, but aware.

So, men don’t understand what it’s like to hear catcalls or have their asses grabbed or hear vulgar comments about their bodies. So? Do women understand everything men feel or experience? No, and what’s wrong with that? Why is it important that the men on Fluther know that they don’t understand what that feels like? We can’t blame all men for the actions of a few. Men in general should not have to feel guilty because Dutchess can’t ride in an elevator if only men are on it. It’s not their fault or their problem.

Most men are not a threat to unknown women. Period. There’s no reason to behave as if they’re all perverts.

Constantly means…well, constantly. A.K.A. all the time. “Occasionaly” may be the word you are looking for

@JLeslie I agree with @livelaughlove21 on this, and I don’t agree with @Dutchess_III‘s blanket statement. It just isn’t true for me. I accept that it’s true for her, and that sucks – but it definitely isn’t true for all women.

@livelaughlove21 I don’t see why you think @Dutchess_III wants all men to feel guilty. I don’t get it. I think she is trying to explain what women experience and that men don’t necessarily understand. It comes from recent Q’s where men think it is just fine to catcall and they don’t understand why some women get so edgy about it.

@ARE_you_kidding_me It doesn’t feel occasionally to me when we are talking about bodily harm. Also, for women who have had bad things happen to them in the past, The occassion is a trigger to all the feats and feeings. If a man comes back frome war and has a heightened fear of things that go bump in the night everyone is undertanding. I think he might describe his fear as constant even thought he is not constantly in fear. It’s more like his fear is at the ready. It’s more like he is hyper aware and believes bad things happen.

@longgone Certainly not all women. I think some of the problem on this Q is a miscommunication or semantics.

^ “I think some of the problem on this Q is a miscommunication or semantics.”

Definitely.

Also, I looked up sexual assaults of offenders by ethnicity. Courtesy of chicago police department, link

So on top of the other information, this stat shows that the sexual offenders are mostly black men, thus shrinking the criteria and statistical likelihood much lower.

@JLeslie I doubt you have “constant” fear of bodily harm. If it is not constant “which means 100% of your literal time” then by definition it is occasional, frequently perhaps. What you describe is like PTSD and like I have said I know exactly what that is like for someone.

Oh, and, though this doesn’t really answer the question:

Very often, when out at night, I’m glad I’m not a guy. A situation in Costa Rica comes to mind: Out of nowhere, young men standing in front of a bar started verbally harassing my male friends. They were out to cause trouble, and every glance was a challenge, to them. We got out of there almost unharmed, but it was close. Had we been all female, they may have catcalled – but there wouldn’t have been violence involved.

Amongst men, physical violence is still very much expected. I read a story lately, in which a couple is strolling around at night. A big guy comes up, and the girl – stupidly – flirts and then provokes him. Her boyfriend begs her to stop. He knows that he is the one who is going to be fighting. It was a good story, and it made me think. How many men really want to fight, ever? How many feel they have to?

I also think that unprovoked attackers, like, for example, racially motivated ones, are more likely to make men their victims. It is more socially acceptable to hit a man, and I hate that this is so.

@JLeslie I suppose I’m just confused as to the point of this question. What exactly is she hoping will be accomplished here? How is it not here to incite guilt? “Can you imagine living in constant fear of other men? Listen to all these bad things that have happened to me. Can you imagine not being able to be in public around other men without fearing them?” The answer, of course, is no, they can’t imagine that. And, as it’s been established, most women don’t feel that way either, even though it was implied in the question that all women do.

Okay, so they can’t imagine it. Back to my point – so? Maybe a male jelly should start a question, “Women, can you imagine knowing that women around you are constantly wary and/or afraid of you even though you haven’t done anything to them? Can you imagine getting dirty looks from women when you try to start a conversation with them? Do you have any idea how it feels to be viewed as some creep before you even do anything? To have women in stairwells glance behind them and quicken their step because you happen to be going up the stairs at the same time? Boy, being a man is such a drag!”

Come on! Sorry that bad things happen, but sexual assault against women is NOT the only bad thing that happens to people. It just bothers me when women have this belief that we’re all victims of men and that men should feel some certain way (empathetic, guilty, whatever) because of something that isn’t their fault. Why? Why do men have to understand everything about women? They don’t.

@livelaughlove21 – well put.

Frankly, I’m beginning to think that this series of questions is in some way personal therapy for @Dutchess_III, and no longer a rational discussion of men and women in society.

You hit the nail on the head – it seems like there is (not just @Dutchess_III but with some others as well) a “look at me I am a victim, woe is me” motivation.

We all deal with our own fears.

@ARE_you_kidding_me I realize what I describe is like PTSD. I don’t think @Dutchess_III walks around with “constant” fear 100% of the time, but the bullshit women deal with happens more than most men realize. Whether a particular woman brushes it off or is more affected is a different thing. I had a cousin feel me up and would have had sex with me if I would have let him, but I left immediately. Some women might get traumatized and feel molested, I feel like he was a fuckhead! I don’t feel traumatized. A friend of my dad acted oddnwith me when I was a little girl and he lifted my first and felt my stomach and he always made me feel uncomfortable. After the shirt incident I stopped being around when he was around. I don’t feel traumitized I just think he is a jerk. I guess he actually might be a pedophile, which is scary if he has harmed some children in worse ways. The boys in high school pushing me up against the lockers and feeling me up. Assholes. Men who have grabbed my ass, assholes. I don’t feel traumitized or have anything like nightmares about it.

@eno I am white and upper middle class, and I still have a list. I don’t only hang aroundnother white upper middle class people first of all. I don’t only go to exclusive clubs and live in a bubble.

@elbanditoroso Bullshit. It is not a woe is me going on here.

@elbanditoroso I think so as well. It seems like disconnected anger and frustration in need of an outlet.

@eno: While I appreciate your devotion to statistics, and how they bear out your assertion that women are irrational for being concerned, do you also consider, in your research, the idea that the vast majority of sexual assaults go unreported?

This whole issue, covered in so many threads recently, is about the general levels of how women perceive threat levels from the men around them, be they strangers or acquaintances.
Most of us don’t “live in fear”, but we do live with a higher awareness of the possible dangers around us than most men do.

And it’s not just about actual physical assault, we are also subjected to levels of unwanted personal attention, the crossing of boundaries, so to speak. To be approached in public, when one is not sending out any signals (for example, reading quietly in a coffee shop, eyes on the book, dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt) and some man approaches, asks to join you, and you politely say no, and he calls you a bitch or worse, it is threatening.
To be commuting on a train or a bus, minding your own business, maybe doing some work on your laptop, and some guy looks over your shoulder and says “Oh, you work at Company Inc?, I’ll just have to stop by there sometime.” Again, invasion of space and a potential threat.

To pick pick pick at exact word choices only serves to derail, detract and diminish.

Or is that the point for so many of you?

@canidmajor (^speak of the devil, but I’m going to share this anyway) said it very well on the original catcalling thread: This reads like a rape trial from the 80s. Very sad. Many of the guys arguing convoluted semantics and obfuscating the basic premise of the OP, and being outraged that the women don’t analyze the possible motives of every one of the catcallers, every time. The worst part? Not even surprising.

This is why I think @Dutchess_III is frustrated and continuing on with these questions. I don’t always agree with her, but I’m equally frustrated with some of the responses to these questions. I shared my feelings on the catcall thread and I was called a bully and chauvinist. And then this is said on this thread: it seems like there is (not just @Dutchess_III but with some others as well) a “look at me I am a victim, woe is me” motivation.

@Dutchess_III used the wrong words to best describe her thoughts and feelings. It happens to many of us, especially when the topic hits close to home and it’s something we feel very passionate about. We share our feelings and instead of understanding we are called names and told that we are weak.

This question from @Dutchess_III appears to be one of the least controversial things I have read here on fluther, yet it appears that she has stirred up a sh*t-storm. Interesting. Very interesting.

@eno Plus, my cousin and the asshole friend of my dad were white, middle aged, held docterate level degrees, men. The man who attacked my aunt was white and dressed neatly in an expensive-ish sweatsuit type outfit. When I am in the ghetto I am a little more with my antenna up, doesn’t matter if it is a black ghetto or Hispanic ghetto, or some other minority, it is more about the poverty and if I get that feeling something is amiss. In a bar race doesn’t enter into at all for me. Again, that is situational. The reality is I am not more wary of black men than white. White men have harrassed me much more often than black men.

I have never reported anything to any authority, so everything that has happened to me is not part of any statistic.

@jonsblond – you wrote ’ @Dutchess_III used the wrong words’—well, what do the rest of us have to react to, except her words?

We’re not mindreaders.

But the greater question, to me, is the choice of venues for the discussion. I think that most, even many, of the guys here are sympathetic to her and the issue. (I know I was until it became a male bashing exercise)

Wouldn’t a more appropriate place to raise this be (a) in high schools and colleges, or (b) in bars and restaurants, or© in the workplace or on elevators?

@elbanditoroso I once caused a shitstorm for saying women are emotional. I didn’t mean all women are emotional, but many are. People get so worked up on Fluther over the silliest things and derail a topic due to semantics.

Wouldn’t a more appropriate place to raise this be (a) in high schools and colleges, or (b) in bars and restaurants, or© in the workplace or on elevators?

Sure it would be. I’ll have to copy and paste this for every hot-button issue that is ever asked on Fluther.

We aren’t forced to read and answer every question on Fluther. I’ve been told many times “If you don’t like it, move along.”

@ARE_you_kidding_me I’m just curious, if a friend of yours said, “my wife and I have been fighting constantly,” would you think they meant 100% of their waking hours?

@jonsblond I think maybe some of the men take it personally, and so they get defensive. The catcall Q some men wanted to explain the possible intention and that we should be happy about the “compliment.” If a man believes himself to be a good man and actually would never hurt a fly, they don’t like being called scary or abusive even indirectly, I guess that might be why they are calling us women crazy. Just another time when women are told we are the ones who are crazy.

It’s semantics. When someone says they worry constantly i’m inclined to take that more literally than when its said casually.

Of course we take it personally when it’s insinuated that all men are a-holes and pervs. It’s just like saying all women are heartless bitc*es. Neither are true but people who have quite honestly been damaged by the opposite sex in some way hold that view regardless if they can’t see it themselves. It’s sooo obvious when men or women do this. They often don’t even realize it or recognize their skewed perceptions almost as if in denial.

@elbanditoroso: “Wouldn’t a more appropriate place to raise this be (a) in high schools and colleges, or (b) in bars and restaurants, or c) in the workplace or on elevators?”

Some of us are. And our efforts are shut down very often by…you guessed it…the men in charge of those schools and buildings and businesses. And yes, to be fair, by some women also who feel that it is inappropriate.

And in business the efforts are called “sensitivity training”, and approached with a wink and a nudge, and comments like ”...if it’ll keep the whiny bitches off our backs” (An actual remark that I overheard in this context.)

Another user here has asked more than one question, and made more than one post about how women themselves foster misogyny by “supporting” the systems that keep it alive.
Well, the men who are beating their breasts and crying out “not ME” on these threads seem to be more concerned about pointing out how women are over-reacting and phrasing things poorly.

@elbanditoroso: Are you raising this in high schools and colleges or bars and restaurants or in the workplace or on elevators? Isn’t this issue your concern as well?

@ARE_you_kidding_me After knowing @Dutchess_III for years on fluther and @jonsblond and myself, I don’t think any of us are saying all men are horrible and scary. Our words are being blown out of proportion. All of us talk about many men in our lives fondly and have stories of men, strangers, helping us. None of us walk around in fear every second of the day.

You are applying a different rigidity in definition to the topic of men who are strangers doing something that might make us uncomfortable to other things in every day life.

I agree some women are men haters or think men are just all bad, but that is not what is going on in this discussion.

people who have quite honestly been damaged by the opposite sex in some way hold that view regardless if they can’t see it themselves

That’s not necessarily true. I had a string of terrible encounters starting with being raped at 15, but I still and always have gotten along better with men. I relate with them better for some reason. I’d rather hang out with the guys instead of hanging out with a group of women. As I said above, both men and women have hurt me. I’m not afraid of being alone with either group. I’m afraid of being alone with a person or group that is aggressive, rude and loud. But I’m one person, so you may be right @ARE_you_kidding_me.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: “Of course we take it personally when it’s insinuated that all men are a-holes and pervs.”

Right. But what if nobody has insinuated this? What if you are simply primed to take any factual statement about the real difference between men and women as an attack, when it shouldn’t be? I feel as though I am reading a completely different thread from some of the people here. @elbanditoroso seems to think this has been a “male bashing exercise”. Yet, I can’t find anything resembling this at all.

Simple statements of fact about the experience of woman and men shouldn’t cause anyone to get all defensive. If it does, I think that is where we should turn our attention. Recall that we used to try to discuss theism. And the simple mention would cause some people to fly off the handle, which did more to illustrate the problem of unchecked belief than any non-theist argument presented.

Relax and come back. Nobody is out to get you. Simply listen and try to understand rather than defend. Defense is unnecessary in this case. Save it for another thread.

@hominid Thank you.

@JLeslie But some of you have and don’t realize it. Are you getting it now? This is a male bashing exercise. What else could it possibly be.Re-read the op’s question. It does not seem to be intended to raise awareness but to illicit guilt in a very backhanded way.

@canidmajor

An unreported sexual assault only tells me that an assault occurred, but it doesn’t tell me anything about the specific criteria that we currently know that doesn’t apply to most women and is limited to one main ethnic offender.

Think of it this way. We’re still learning new things about the universe, so should we be wary and afraid of all the unknowns in the universe? No. We go with the information we do have and change it as we gather new information. Since we can only derive a sexual assault from an unreported incident, we continue to maintain the same specific criteria from the information that we do have until we learn something new. Therefore, since the specific criteria does not apply to most women I maintain that they’re suffering from an irrational phobia.

@JLeslie

Your anecdotal evidence is fine but whether you reported it or not it will not change the current overall statistic. As it stands now, a woman who hangs out with black men will be much more likly to be sexualy assaulted. Age 12–34 increases that likelihood further and living in a bad/rural area will increase it even further.

Therefore, the rational woman should be wary and afraid if she falls into this specific criteria. Anyone else would does not fit this criteria would be suffering from an irrational phobia because the liklihood of being sexuality assault is too low.

In your case, you’re being irrational because you’re deliberately choosing to put yourself into a dangerous criteria. In my opinion, you’re digging your own grave by stepping into the ghetto.

@jonsblond wrote “We aren’t forced to read and answer every question on Fluther. I’ve been told many times “If you don’t like it, move along.”

I interpret that that advice from her to mean “If you don’t agree with the agenda here, then leave”. That’s helpful.

@ARE_you_kidding_me No! Women are telling you their experience and some of the worries we have regarding the possibility of something bad happening. No one is assuming all men are bad. We are talking about taking risks and feeling comfortable.

@eno WTF?! How much it is reported is extremely significant. You can’t know the accurate statistical danger if it isn’t reported. You have no idea, trust me, how often the women in your life have had uncomortable or downright scary interactions with men. None of the men here do. Maybe you know everything that happened to your wife, maybe, but not her friends, your sister, your mother, your boss, trust me. I don’t mean that all those women have had something bad happen, I am only saying if they have, there is a good chance you don’t know about it.

And, again, we are not walking around in fear all the time that someonenis going to jump out at us and hold a gun to our head, we just try to be careful. It isn’t like every man sends us screaming with a pounding heart like a spider sends an arachnophobe into some sort of panic.

Stepping into the ghetto. LOL. Well, I am not often in the ghetto, but it is pretty easy to not realize you are pulling into the ghetto when driving across country and you need to fill your gas tank. For sure if the area is bad I often turn right around andnget back on the highway. Sometimes you just wind up in a bad area, because you get a little lost. I don’t allow my husband to buy an expensive car for at least one of our cars, because I don’t want to attract attention. I lived outside of Memphis, and there are lots of areas that are a little sketchy. But, as I said, white men have done most of the harrassing in my case. Men with big salaries and big degrees.

Not at all @elbanditoroso. We can all discuss this. I only ask to not be called names and told that I am weak. What ever happened to respectful discussions? Seriously, some of you can’t disagree with someone without attacking their character.

@JLeslie Yes, oh yes! You are, men on the whole. You don’t realize it as I have said before. It’s centered on what males can do to women and that women are afraid or uneasy around unfamiliar men. Complely understandable and not controversial. The original question was directed at men, not women two answer. Sharing stories is fine but the question is more of a guilt prod rather than a sincere discussion. Jumping on this bandwagon is doing the exact same thing. With all due respect…yes. you. Are. But it does not appear intentional in your case. I can’t say that about the op.
I’m not mad at you, I understand. You need to realize that this is the reason the thread is inflamatory.

Bullshit.

Why should any man feel guilty if they have done nothing?

The OP is asking about empathy, not guilt.

@JLeslie write: “Why should any man feel guilty if they have done nothing?”

Answer: because in this forum, men (in the aggregate) are being criticized and described in various non-complimentary ways (“bashed”). I am a man, therefore I am implicitly being criticized.

I know I am not guilty of anything, but as a male, I get splashed with the same slop as the others.

@JLeslie the original question does not appear to be sincere. It appears to be lashing out at men regardless if the op realizes it or not.

@elbanditoroso: “Answer: because in this forum, men (in the aggregate) are being criticized and described in various non-complimentary ways (“bashed”). I am a man, therefore I am implicitly being criticized.”

This is just factually incorrect. You may take issue with things that have been stated – but not things that have not. In other words, present a counter-argument to something that has been stated that you disagree with. You are disagreeing with a ghost at this point.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Well, let it go, that isn’t the intention. Your perception of what she is saying is not the intention of her statement. Are you willing to accept that and not be overly critical of how you interpret the words? Are you willing to set aside whatever causes you to feel that she is bashing and just listen to what she has actually been through and what she does to try and keep herself from being harrassed? What I do, what many women do and think about regarding safety in their life?

@JLeslie

Unreported incidents does not invalidate reported incidents because by that logic no one would even bother conducting a statistic for sexual assaults in the first place if they couldn’t get some sort of significant statistical result from it.

This isn’t a trust issue. Yours and others anecdotal evidence means nothing if it isn’t reported. You cannot derive anything of value from information that isn’t shared or limited to a few stories by some people.

There is a new app called Sketchfactor. It is a navigation app that is community-based. It is similar to waze, but the difference is that the users report which neighborhoods are sketchy so you can avoid them.

@eno My guess is a lot of the crime is black on black, and I am not black. Plus, as I have said before, it is not a race issue for me. You just don’t get it. I do understand why you are trying to make it a race and income issue to try to clarify statistical possibilities, but it isn’t like people with money live in towns with brick walls around with them. Even of we accept that bad people are more likely to be from “bad” neighborhoods, they can come to my neighborhood at any given time. My supermarket, my residential area, the park I like to go to, etc.

If white people are less likely to report then it really would affect your stats, but I have no idea if that is the case. Look at the children molested by Priests. That number wound up being way higher than most people ever would have assumed, even though it is still a very small number of Priests in the scheme of things. Before all those stories came out about Priests I knew to be wary of adults, especially adult men, who work with children. Teachers, coaches, clergy, I always knew. The Preist story was not surprising to me, I always knew that to be a possibility. When I meet an individual Priest I do not think he is a pedophile. I don’t assume it about male teachers or coaches either.

@hominid , I think there is a bit of convoluted reasoning going on here.

I feel bashed as a male as a result of this conversation, based on what I am reading and the comments of a number of people in this discussion. You tell me that I am wrong and chasing ghosts, that I am misunderstanding what women have been saying here.

So it’s legitimate for you to suggest (a) that I am not being bashed after all, and (b) that any feelings I have are illegitimate.

That seems like a ying/yang counterpoint to earlier parts of this colloquy, where there was quite a bit of discussion about (a) whether women are right to live in fear, and (b) if their feelings were legitimate.

The only conclusion I can draw from your comment is that it is OK for women to accuse men of chasing ghosts (when the man feels something) but it s not OK for men to have any doubt about what women said.

@elbanditoroso – Let me bring your attention again to the theism questions we have had here many times. Whenever atheists discussed their concerns and experience of living in a hyper-religious society, multiple “I’m offended” cards would go flying, and the conversation would continue with trying to fight off accusations of “bashing” theists.

The thing is, there are some theists who identify with their beliefs so strongly, that it is nearly impossible to discuss anything related to it without triggering defensive shutdown. I believe this is going on here. But I’m rather surprised. You seem to be identifying so strongly with “man” that you feel offended and obliged to defend. Yet I don’t think that is necessary at all.

In the case of the theists who felt offended and in need to defend – they were never under attack. Their ideas might have been at times. But in many of the discussions, simply explaining what it is like to be an atheist in the U.S. is not a call for theists to defend themselves. Theists’ intelligence, decency or humanity were not under attack. In fact, the amount of bending over backward to make this clear was bizarre. It resulted in overly-parenthetical talk was ridiculous.

So, back to this discussion. The same thing appears to be happening here. Someone is stating their experience, and you are identifying as “men” and finding that you need to defend yourself and your kind. Why is this? I am male and yet feel no urge to rush to defend men – nor do I feel insulted by anything that has been said. Why would I? Yet the second comment in this thread is by you, and already you had been claiming that the OP wants to “rail about how evil men are.” Why haven’t I seen this?

@elbanditoroso: “I feel bashed as a male as a result of this conversation, based on what I am reading and the comments of a number of people in this discussion. You tell me that I am wrong and chasing ghosts, that I am misunderstanding what women have been saying here.”

You can feel bashed if you choose to. Yet it doesn’t seem to reflect any reality about what has been said in this thread.

If you had decided to go the @eno route and set out to prove why @Dutchess_III‘s fears or concerns are unwarranted, then I would have little issue with your approach here. While I disagree greatly with @eno‘s conclusions, it is at least sticking to the topic. Claiming to be offended is not, however.

@JLeslie

Black on white sexual assault is slightly higher so you’re basically flipping a coin.

Sure they do. It is called a gated-community. Bad people can come from bad neighborhoods to good ones but if you take a look at the statistics, they rarely do. Most of the crimes are happening in their shity neighborhoods including most of these sexual assaults.

You’re doing it again. You’re focusing on unknowns, the what ifs and buts. It means nothing. What if the dynamics of the universe changes tomorrow? Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. If it happens to change one day, then we will change our theories just as we did when the story of the priests came out.

Now just apply this reasoning to your unreported argument.

@eno I have lived in many gated communities, I still go out to the supermarket, doctor’s office, visit friends outside of my community, travel to far away places, go out to eat, and on and on.

My known is how many times I have had real things happen to me and real things happen to people I know, those are reality, not made up. I understand your logic, a friend of a friend of mine was shot and killed by the sniper in Montgomery County, MD during the rash of murders several years ago. Someone else I know, a friend’s parents were killed in the plane crash outside of NY many years ago. At my regular supermarket in TN an employee went whacko and stabbed several people. I think I mentioned my local post office had an armed robbery. When I was 14 the store I worked at had been robbed, also armed robbery, a year before. I still go outside, I still fly in planes, and I don’t feel in danger all the time. You really don’t understand what it is like for many women. You also are making some of us out to be irrational and I think you picture us cowering in corners, and that isn’t the case.

On another Q one of our very well respected jellies admitted to when a woman walks by it always catches his attention. The click of her heals. We women know men are checking us out. It is sexual. Ok, not all men are undressing us with their eyes, but come on, it happens a lot. Then some men take it too far and are too obvious or do something that makes us uncomfortable. It’s true sometimes they do nothing. They have done nothing wrong, but because they are a man in a certain situation we women are wary. That isn’t their fault, it is just how it is and the women are not phonic or paranoid, just cautious.

I’m a middle aged white male, and I remember at least one time this summer that I was intimidated by/afraid of a woman. She was looking for trouble, and I was the person behind her in line. It was random. It does not make me fearful of standing in lines with other women.

@ibstubro In line? Line indicates a very public place with many other people around. Do any of the women here seem to be saying they are afraid to be in a line with men?

Wow. 67 new responses while I was sleeping.

The “fear” I mentioned isn’t “terror.” It’s an awareness that has it’s roots in a shadow of fear. To this day, if I’m home alone and some guy knocks on my door, I have my German Shepherd at my side when I answer the door. I lock all the doors when I’m home alone. We don’t when my husband is here.

@ibstubro….What? My girlfriend was attacked by a drunk and belligerent woman at Taco Tico once. Total stranger to her. It was a one time, random incident. I’ve been threatened by other woman. Got punched in the face out of the blue by a chick at school who was, for some reason, convinced I was after her boyfriend. Not the same. I can handle any woman physically.

But…what exactly was that 1 in 1000 statistic? Was that about actual rape? Because every woman on this thread has had incidents of unwanted sexual attention, some more severe and physical than others.

@JLeslie

Well, I never said you were completely dysfunctional, although we probably have a different definition of what constitutes as dysfunctional. If you’re deviating from yours or societal norms because of an irrational fear of getting sexually assaulted, than you’re dysfunctional. Waiting for a different elevator because the first call had a group of men on it is the equivalent of cowering in a corner.

You’re right, I don’t know what it is like for many women and neither do you. Whatever I do know is based on the studies that were conducted by others as well as the women I know/knew in my life. See, where you have so many dangerous/deadly stories, I have none. None of the women or anyone I know for that matter had any dangerous stories to tell. Not a single woman that I know behaves the way dutchess described her own irrational behavior. But again, the fact that its all peachy by me and my surroundings is statistically insignificant. Either way, we don’t need to understand what it is like for many women because it is still irrelevant to the statistical likelihoods of sexual assault.

Fear of being sexually assaulted is not an irrational fear. If it’s to the point where you refuse to go outside, then it’s irrational. Being aware of the very real possibility that it can happen is not irrational.

It is statistically unlikely to happen, so yes, it is irrational. Don’t conflate dysfunctional with irrational. They’re not the same. You can be irrational and still function. People are terrified of harmless bugs but they still manage to function in society.

What exactly is “statistically unlikely to happen”? Rape itself? Or sexual harassment to greater or lesser degrees?

Sexual assault is statistically unlikely to happen.

Sexual harassment is a different category. I didn’t look that one up.

OK. Well, I escaped being raped twice. Ergo, I have never been raped. I’ve had guys shove me down on a counter a pretend to have sex with me, I’ve had guys come up behind me as I was shooting pool and pantomimed having sex with me. I’ve been stalked, followed, scared, commented on “Girl, you are just BUILT for SEX! Let’s go! You know you want it!” I’ve had guys become very angry at being rejected, I’ve had totally strange men grab me in very personal places…but I am living proof that statistically actual assault is unlikely to happen.

Well, someone attempting to rape you goes under the same category as sexual assault.

Someone forcefully pretending to have sex with you, grabbing you in private areas, constitutes as threatening behavior which also goes under sexual assault.

The only gray area is stalking and harassment/comments.

You can see if you fit in the criteria. Perhaps that is why you experienced as such.

What was your age for each incident?

Are you or were you poor (low income household) when this happened?

Do you live in a bad or rural area? Were they low income households?

Did you know the offenders ?

What ethnicity were the offenders?

Despite your answer, though, your evidence is anecdotal so it will not have any statistical significance regardless of how you answer.

On a personal level, you might have more of a reason to be wary and afraid, but this does not apply to most women.

I’ll get back to you on that. While I was searching I came back across @jonsblond‘s comment “I can make a list like @Dutchess starting with being raped by two boys who were supposed to be my friends when I was 15. It happens. :(”
Wow. For such a small pool of women here on this thread, what, 10 of us? TWO of us have been sexually assaulted. What happened to the statistics?

This is my beginners list, and it’s not even a complete list. I didn’t go mention guys driving around the block 3 times to get another look at me, when I was walking home when I was 14. Scared the shit out of me. I don’t even mention all the shit that happened after I was 20.

This is where I learned what kind of animals some men can be. Started before I even became sexually aware when I was 13. I was white, upper middle / lower upper class.

The ethnicity were three black guys, the rest were white. About ¼th of them were much, much older than me.

Oh, and you probably know Auggie is a victim of sexual assault too.

@Dutchess_III – I don’t think you need to entertain the statistics nonsense more than you have. Yes, every single woman I have know has experienced some level of assault (if not rape). “But…not statistics…just anecdote.” So what? Is the experience of being assaulted ameliorated by the knowledge that such an act is rare?

Besides the fact that hardly anyone reports these assaults, so the statistics are garbage, you also have to deal with the following: What are my chances of getting eaten by a bear? Pretty low, right? So I shouldn’t concern myself with being eaten by a bear. But what are my chances if I am exposed to bears? They increase, right? And does the fact that my chances may still be less than heart attack risk provide any reason to not be concerned about being eaten by a bear?

The fact is that women are exposed to bears, and they modify their behavior to minimize risk. So the statistics, besides being plagued with the unreported problem, are measuring the risk to women who have already taken precaution against the threat. You are therefore using this number to claim that there it is irrational for women to be concerned at all, and therefore should not even take precautions.

What are your chances of being bitten by a bat? :)

Very nice, @hominid. Thank you. Both of my daughters were assaulted, but they felt they were responsible somehow, so they didn’t tell me about it until years later.

@Dutchess_III what exactly is the point you are trying to make with this thread?

@Dutchess_III

Is it a rural area? Was everyone an upper middle / lower upper class? In either case, you partially apply to the criteria and partially do not.

@hominid

Everyone has a war story on the internet. Like I said, I shared some of my own experiences. Every woman that I know/knew has never experienced any form of sexual violence in their life. No one takes any “precautions”. They live a normal life. Cool war stories, right? You think this means something? Not at all.

Also, like I said before, the fact that something isn’t reported does not invalidate what is reported. There is still a large statistical significance in what is reported. An unreported incident is just an anecdotal war story. So what? So nothing. That is exactly what it is, nothing.

Most women are not exposed to bears, though, because bears are in forests (most offenders are located in shity neighborhoods where poverty and crime are high). It only makes sense for the women in these shity neighborhoods to be wary and afraid.

Some rural, some very public. I have no idea what the socio-economic status of the assholes were. I didn’t know any of them, or was only passingly acquainted with them.

I appreciate your question @Dutchess_III. I was raped for the first time at 15 and got pregnant as a result. My life and my identity were irrevocably changed. I work very hard to not be triggered by my PTSD… but I leave the house every work day and most weekends and interact with people. I ride in elevators. I walk to and from my car. And I’m constantly calculating… how many people are around? Where might someone be hiding? Who might help me if I get hurt? Where would I go? How fast could that person get to me? Could I get away? How long will this elevator take? What could happen before the doors open? Where is the emergency button? Where is my cell phone? Would my husband answer the phone right now? If I yelled right now… would anyone hear me? Would anyone help me?

Do you know that women are taught to yell “Fire” when being assaulted because people are more likely to come to the aid of the threat of fire than the threat of rape or violence? Do you know what that does to the psyche of a woman who is afraid of being raped?

It’s a daily thing. That doesn’t mean I hate men. I don’t. Not at all. But I live with PTSD every day. Every walk. Every interaction. Every elevator ride. Every line. Every physical exam. Every dark hallway. Every closed office door. Every doorbell.

I work through it each time. The point is that I have to reassure myself daily. Many times a day.

Do you?

Are you even aware that there are people who feel the need to be so alert?

Do you know how exhausting this level of alert is?

Just reading this question and the answers has raised my heart rate and blood pressure. I have damp eyes. I am talking myself out of being triggered.

I am so, so sorry @Cupcake. I know exactly what you’re saying too. I do all of those things but usually in the back of my mind, without thinking about it, and not as intently as you. But I never had to go through the horror that you did. I completely, and totally understand your fears.

We’re getting in the way of @eno‘s statistics, you know.

Why would it be in the way?

All men are pigs. All men are potential rapists and batterers. All men see women as sex objects, only. All men want to hurt women. All men should be feared.

There I said it. Stop putting words in everyone’s mouths. Stop equivocating (you know who you are) and accept how some women feel. It does you no harm, unless of course you are an abuser and need to justify your sick behavior. If you personally feel attacked that some women fear men, then you need to ask yourself why. No one is naming you you as a potential threat. And if you feel that they are, that’s on you. Why do you feel that? It’s irrational, a phobia even.

Fuck statistics. They only monitor probability, not truth. Justifying your attitude with statistics just shows how little you care about the experiences of women.

Good job. You have alienated and dismissed a whole group of women. I hope to hell you don’t have daughters, sisters, nieces or a mother. If you do, tell them they have nothing to fear. Send them out at night dressed “provocatively”, with large groups of guys. Tell them to park in seedy alleys, alone, and to get into cars with strange men. Tell them, statistically, they have nothing to fear, and if they express fear, tell them they are irrational. Maybe they need therapy.

You’re the man of the fucking year! Good job.

Because, according to your stats, @eno only 1 in 1000 women are actually victims of sexual assault. However, you conceded that I was one, in spite of the fact that I’ve never actually been raped, and two (or three?) other women on this thread alone have been raped. And not to mention Auggie’s horrible experiences growing up. That’s a statistical impossibility, according to your numbers.

@eno Actually, you don’t know if any of the women you know have been sexually assaulted, harrased or raped. Why do you feel so confident you know? Have you asked them directly? What? You think they would all just tell you such a thing if it happened to them? That is statistically unlikely.

It isn’t something I’d mention to any of my men friends or coworkers. Probably not even family members.

@tinyfaery

I don’t recall denying how some of you women feel. All said was that it is not a significant reason to be wary and fearful for most women.

Exactly, there is no truth, only a probability and that probability is telling me that most women don’t have to be wary and afraid of men because of potential sexual abuse. This has nothing to do with whether or not I care about it.

Again, I didn’t dismiss. Their stories are real, but because they’re not reported and part of a statistic, they’re statistically insignificant. It is really as simple as that.

I helped my kids overcome a lot of phobias. Bugs, lightning, flying, you name it. I did tell them that they’re irrational fears. You’d be surprised how helpful it is to just reason with your kids. Most of them are in universities now, should I call the cops because they’re most likely hanging out with strange guys? You know, because some of you had bad experiences with men, so my kids should be taught how to be wary and afraid of men now, right?

Our concerns are not irrational. Yes. Girls need to be taught to be wary. They are the most vulnerable. Two of the women here were raped at the age of 15. I was getting hit on at 13, maybe even sooner, just didn’t notice.

Do you have any daughters @eno?

@eno At minimum I hope your girls know that some men will try to take advantage of them. Not to walk alone at night. All those basics.

If you think your daughters would tell you if some guy slipped his hand up their skirt at a party without permission or that they would mention to you when a man says something to them that made them nervous or uncomfortable you are naive.

@JLeslie

I know them for well over 30 years. Whatever I wouldn’t know my wife would. I know everything about them, how they think, how they behave. I didn’t have to ask. The topic came up more than a few times. None of us have any bad experiences in our lives. It probably just seems shocking to you because you experienced or heard a lot of hardship.

@Dutchess_III

Yes.

@JLeslie

I don’t think you’re in a position to call me naive when you have no kids at all. My kids were home-schooled from birth till 18. They have an extremely strong foundation. They made it to ivy-league and that on its own weight assures a safer environment. The students who go there have a much more refined culture embedded in them.

Trust me. My dad knew me for over 40. There are lots of things I never told him.

One time, about a year after graduation, a girlfriend and I ran into some guys we knew from high school. One of them happened to be the guy I lost my virginity to when I was 15. His name was Steve. It was Superbowl Sunday and someone had rented out a hotel room for a small party. We were invited. We said “sure.” (This was during the Steeler’s reign!) There were about 8 of us all together.
Well Steve acted like I was some special property of his, even though I’d broken up with him the day after we had sex, 3 years earlier. He kept saying things like “We had something special, don’t forget!”
I told him to knock it off and quit trying to kiss me. There were other men and women in the room, and no one was drinking, so I didn’t feel I was any special danger.
Then Steve’s father showed up, and he had been drinking, and he proceeded to start pawing at me and grabbing me. Steve said, “She’d my girlfriend dad!”
I said, “That’s it. I’m not your girlfriend, Steve, and your father is disgusting,” and we left.
You think I told my dad about that? No. That and a million other things.

Do you have any daughters @eno?

@Dutchess_III

Your dad is not me and your dad didn’t raise you as I raised my kids. You don’t how high my home-schooling standards were. You don’t know what genetic traits I passed on and what ethics and morality was taught to them. You don’t know any of their influences or what are the ingredients of their foundation.

I answered you before, yes, I have daughters and sons.

I didn’t see that. Thx. Sounds like they’re older. Just for the hell of it, why don’t you ask your daughters if anything like that has happened to them. If they are older, they may feel more comfortable telling you things that may have happened when they were younger. Just ask them.

@eno I was a kid. I was a teenage daughter. My maternal grandparents went to NYU undergrad and both took masters level courses, although only my grandmother completed her masters. Both of my aunts have their masters. My mother has a bachelors. My father had the choice of a fellowship to Yale for his PhD or a scholarship at Wharton, he chose Wharton. BFD. What the hell does any of that matter in regards to men being assholes now and then? Your children grew up more sheltered, maybe they had less possibilties of asshole teenage guys, very possible, but I hope you didn’t leave them so naive they aren’t ready for the man who is controlling and not very nice. Sounds like they were raised in an environment that promotes strict obedience, but I could be wrong. That can be dangerous for girls, but it can work out. Some of that is luck.

For any parent to think they know everything about their children is naive. It’s ridiculous. Did your parents know everything you were thinking and everything you did?

I have no problem when people question my knowledge of parenting, but you cannot question my knowledge of being a female, what we experience and what we tell and don’t tell. That’s what you are doing. I told my parents most everything, I told my mom when I lost my virginity, but I didn’t tell her every little time some guy made an asshole move.

@eno Who are you? I get the feeling you are a jelly renamed.

Hmmm.

@eno

Stats for you from the CDC. It includes stats at college and some race stats since you seem interested in that. Plus, all this is underreported.

“Man, I feel like a woman!”

Those stats are a far cry from 1 in 1000, too.

Very far from 1 in 1,000.

I wanted to find stats by university, but I had trouble finding it. There were a few articles about Harvard doing nothing about some rape cases. I’m sure many universities don’t address it as they should.

My first year at my school a girl was basically about to be raped, she was very drunk, barely conscious, and a guy on the floor stopped the jerk who was taking advantage of her, and took her back to her dorm.

My friend’s daughter who was gang raped was raped at college. They took turns with her, it was horrific.

Overall, I did feel safe at my university, but shit happens. One guy I went on a date with, we started kissing in his room and next I knew he was on top of me, he was heavy, not fat, but very muscular, and trying to get his legs between mine and I told him to stop and he wouldn’t and then I tried pushing him off and couldn’t, and after me wriggling around he finally let me up. Asshole. The whole thing only lasted a minute or two, but I was nervous. He could have raped me easily. He was so strong. It is the only time in my life I really felt I could be actually forcebly raped.

And it’s experiences like these that cause us to be wary. We finally figure out that men are thinking about sex, unless they’re thinking about sex, in which case they’re probably thinking about sex. As young women, we don’t automatically know that, because we don’t think that way. We’re into conversations and stuff. It’s a shock.

LOL.

you need to give GA’s girlfriend!

Of course (s)he is. Who would troll and want those words associated with them?

I give you lots of GA’s mama, but I don’t think they add to your lurve if you’re counting.

No, not really. Just like seeing them under my answer. And that’s gramma to you! :D

Gramma?! Don’t be silly. I call everyone mama and mommy regardless of age. Anyway, you aren’t old enough to be my gramma.

This question is a prime example of what’s broken in America.
It’s like a session of congress, where everything is either distorted or spun to fit into an agenda.

What has been distorted and spun? Our experiences? Are you going to deny that woman have concerns about being in public or certain places that men don’t even think twice about?

@Dutchess_III Are you going to deny that men have concerns that women don’t even think twice about? Because, correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve neglected to even acknowledge that men experience things that women don’t understand.

What is it with some women thinking that they’re the only ones that have problems? And your recent response on the “what brought you joy today” question? What’s your deal with this? The narcissism is strong with this one.

Have you even answered the most important question: What were you hoping would come from this question? What was the purpose of asking it? If it wasn’t an attempt to make men guilty for the actions of other men, what was it?

I’m almost certain these questions will continue to be dodged because there’s no way that you could be in the wrong in any way, shape, or form (many of your questions seem to turn out this way, after all), so I’ll just leave my last word and bow out now.

@livelaughlove21 – I’m confused. If we were to discuss race and we were discussing white privilege, would the discussion be scrapped merely because white people have problems too?

@livelaughlove21 Why would @Dutchess_III want all men to feel guilty? That makes no sense. She is asking if men can imagine being the weaker sex in a world where the stronger sex does sometimes make unwanted advances.

It’s no different than a black person saying to a white person have they stopped to think what it is like to be black. I can try to imagine it without feeling any “white” guilt. I don’t think a black person wants me to feel guilty, I think he or she wants to feel understood.

This question was just one spin off of about 5 that have been asked because of the “How do you handle being sexually harassed in public,” in public. @JLeslie actually asked this as a comment in one of those other threads, so I posted it as a question.

We’ve gotten a lot of insightful answers from some good men. Someone said he stopped to help a woman with 3 little kids change a tire and he could feel her fear. He didn’t understand why, but I think he does now.

On the other hand our concerns have also been dismissed by other men.

I’m still waiting to hear back from @ibstubro on what’s been distorted or spun. @jonsblond said, “I was raped at 15 by two boys I thought were my friends.” How is that distorting something?

I would imagine men have a level of anxiety for their safety too- road ragers, being mugged, shot.

Well, we have that too. People who fly into road rage don’t care who’s behind the wheel. Muggers don’t care if you’re male or female. Or maybe they do. A male would be far more likely to fight back. Muggers probably prefer females.

@Dutchess_III I could be wrong but I think most? women would fight back. Muggings are an opportunistic crime and they don’t care what gender you are.

“And it’s experiences like these that cause us to be wary. We finally figure out that [all] men are thinking about sex, unless they’re thinking about sex, in which case they’re probably thinking about sex. As young women, we don’t automatically know that, because we don’t think that way. We’re into conversations and stuff. It’s a shock.”

At precisely what age does this sexual obsession start, @Dutchess_III. Surely if it is presented as fact, there are statistics?

The hubris to categorize a sex or race so narrowly.

No, no, NO. I cannot imagine defining a race or sex so narrowly. I will not consider the possibility. It’s too shallow for the tidepool.

Well, it would depend on if they had a gun or a knife, and if I had my kids with me @trailsillustrated. But the point is, men are are not at a higher risk of being the victim of road rage, or a mugging, or being shot than women. Women ARE at a higher risk of being sexually harassed, or raped, than men.

@ibstubro…gender and race are two completely different things. Not sure why you’re comparing them as if they can be compared.
Read the comments. Every woman on this thread has been visited by unwelcome sexual attention / harassment from men, some violently. @Cupcake was raped at 15 (and it just breaks my heart….) and wound up pregnant from her attacker. Race doesn’t even figure in to it.

Some of the harassment toward me came from black men, most from white. But they were ALL male.

As to what age, IDK. 13? 14? I don’t know. I’m not a male. They would be better qualified to answer that question. At what age did you start thinking about sex a lot?

Speaking of getting shot, I just remembered something my sister and her friend went through. They were going into a club when some guy in a car hollered, in a friendly way, “Hey ladies! Come here!” They went there and they were both leaning down, looking in the driver’s side window which was down. The next thing they knew, the guy was pointing a gun at them. As one they simply reacted. They stood up and they both walked opposite directions.
The police later told them that was exactly the right thing to do, to walk in opposite directions. It confused him.
What are the chances he was after their money?

I’ve never had a gun pointed at me.

How are gender and race two completely different things, @Dutchess_III.

Readily apparent physical reasons for discrimination.

You can compound race + gender, but you cannot separate the two.

Unless you have statistics that belie the fact?

What??? Men are the ones that to commit rape. Men. Not black men. Not white men. Not Hispanic men. Not Asian men. Just MEN. Maybe you have some experience that differs from that.

There are women that commit rape. Probably less but there are.

You could as easily be screaming race, @Dutchess_III.

Black/white.
Men/women

You don’t understand that there are 2 races, and sexes?

I understand this argument, but my only gripe with it is that this forces normal happy and friendly guys to not talk to anyone because we always have to be aware of some scared lady.

I’m sorry but I just think its irrational that I’m thought of as a threat because I’m muscular or whatever.

A few years ago, didn’t an Australian airline create a policy that said no adult male could accompany an underage woman on their flights. I’m on my phone at a bar now but ill look it up later.

I just feel like something like that, if it actually happened, is totally reactionary.

I’m late to this discussion, and have only read about half of the conversation. When I was 19 I joined the Army Reserve. I was astonished to find men routinely undressed me with their eyes while I was in my fatigues no less! Those uniforms are baggy, covered with extra baggy pockets, and there’s no way a woman’s figure could show through.

Over and over again I was met with the expectation that there was no way a woman would join the military except for one reason: She’s too hard up to get any sex on her own in civilian life. It was creepy, and it was one reason I did not stay in.

That was a long time ago, but those attitudes still exist today in some way.

This is one big pity party.

@Blackberry You don’t have to be muscular for a woman to be wary. It’s more being male and the situation. An average male is much stronger than an average woman, they don’t need to be all full of big muscles. If I saw you in a crowd at a bar, supermarket, at the beach, name it, you wouldn’t scare me, I would probably start a conversation with you. If I turned a corner and you were the only one on the street (this happened to me all the time in Memphis) I would just want to know if you seemed to be closing in on me as I walked. Situation and behavior. If the street was full of people, again, I probably wouldn’t think twice about talking to you, I wouldn’t have my guard up.

How could that Australian rule work for father and daughter?

@Blackberry I second what @JLeslie said. Sometimes it’s just a feeling. I don’t think you’d creep me out. It’s not like I avoided ALL contact with ALL men. I was just cautious and tuned in to my radar. Usually it was right. A couple of times it failed me miserably.

@snowberry Gag. I hated that shit too.

@trailsillustrated said, “I would imagine men have a level of anxiety for their safety too- road ragers, being mugged, shot.”

So this question started out asking men if they had any idea what it feels like to be a woman (being always alert to what might be threatening her well being and safety). But consider safe houses. I could probably find 100,000 safe houses for women and children around the world, but I didn’t even know safe houses for men even existed until I searched for them. There aren’t very many at all, and the ones that do exist for the most part are in the homes of sympathizers rather than a facility.

Based on this fact, women (and chidren) are at risk, and these folks really do live in fear for their lives. Not nearly as many men as women have to even think about trying to find a safe place to live because of threats of domestic violence.

I’m guessing that men who engage in domestic violence are also a threat to the larger population, and their target has traditionally been women (and of course children half of whom are female as well).

@Dutchess_III said, “But the point is, men are are not at a higher risk of being the victim of road rage, or a mugging, or being shot than women. Women ARE at a higher risk of being sexually harassed, or raped, than men.” Exactly.

@Espiritus_Corvus’ comment and link on this related question is of interest here. http://www.fluther.com/175576/men-have-you-ever-been-afraid-a-woman-might-harm-you/#quip3022363 Can anyone explain if the statistics really are that men are victims of domestic violence 40% of the time, why there aren’t more shelters for men? Something’s not right, or maybe the need isn’t as great, or perhaps the men aren’t abused as badly as women tend to be. I don’t know. But regardless, usually it’s the women and their very vulnerable children who need shelter, not a single man.

This claims that 85% of domestic abuse victims are women.

I have been to a presentation about domestic abuse against men in the LGBT community, in which the claim that most domestic abuse against men is done by other men was made. I don’t have any statistics to provide about that.

—. @Cupcake I tried to find this news article from several years ago, but could not. A coroner in the US said he could tell at a glance if a homicide was done as a result of a homosexual relationship gone bad. It was because of how the victim was killed. Instead of just killing them and being done with it, they really mutilated the body, often beyond recognition. As if they were adding insult to injury.

This sort of behavior didn’t happen with your average heterosexual tryst.—

I can relate with women without imagining. I’m a white guy and I feel the same wariness and fear but only of black and latino men. Almost every bad experience I had in life and a lot of the bad experiences that happened to those that I know were caused by these men.

I am late to this discussion and have read none of the previous answers.

I’m not afraid of men. If an elevator stops and it’s full of men, I’ll get on it without thinking twice (comment made by OP in her details).

I am observant of my surroundings when I’m out, but that has nothing to do with men. It has more to do with the time of day and the area I’m in.

@jca What if you are in a building late at night, no one else around in the hallways and a man appears to get onto the elevator with you, or is already on the elevator, do you step in? Do you get on the elevator, but are aware it puts you at a risk possibly? Do, you get in the elevator and not think twice about it?

@JLeslie: If it were my work building, or other buildings that my employer maintains, I wouldn’t think twice about getting in. If a public building, or parking garage, I’d probably not be taking the elevator, I’d walk down the steps.

This is ridiculous.
”A MAN”.
Like there is only one visual.
I mean, is this Urkel or Hulk Hogan? Are we claiming that makes no difference?

What blatant sexism.

Cuz, you know, guys like Urkel are never armed. And crimes against women are always spontaneous.

I can only pity someone that would make such sweeping, indiscriminate generalities about ½ the population of the Earth.

Androphobia

Well, call it what you want, but I’ve never had a strange female shove me down and grope me @ibstubro. Never had a strange female force me into the corner of an elevator. After experiencing these things, you still think it is pure sexism to be wary and careful when around men you don’t know?

@ibstubro Makes no difference. The man who attacked my aunt was a middle aged white guy, well groomed, wearing a very nice sweatsuit type outfit. She went to her office early, before most people get there. It was a midrise building in NYC. He stepped into the elevator with her, got out on her floor with her, and she knew something was wring, because her offices are the entire floor. He grabbed her, forced her down, she struggled, he banged her up a little, he got her belt undone, and then the elevator started making noise, and she thinks it scared him off and he left.

Certainly someone dressed like a thug might appear more scary, but I believe even the dapper looking men can be criminals.

The guy who raped the daughter of the woman I worked with was not some scuzzy looking man either. He was a clean cut, average looking guy.

@Dutchess_III And around some men you DO know. It happens more often than not, unfortunately.

It’s considered an illness and recognized by the medical profession, same as Gynophobia.

How do you figure it’s an “irrational fear” when every woman on this thread has been accosted sexually in some way by men , up to and including rape. How is it “irrational” to be afraid of it happening again, and taking steps to prevent it?

@Dutchess_III I have read the entire thread, only a handful have. Sure taking precautions is a smart thing to do. Responsible actually. Whatever makes you feel and be safe. Starting this fiasco…not so much.

My sister is terrified of frogs. It’s not even funny. She is terrified. Her fear is irrational @ibstubro.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: Many more women have had men assault them but may not feel free to admit or discuss on Fluther. A lot of us know each other on other sites and maybe don’t want our deepest personal secrets out in the open.

Refusing to get in an elevator because there are only men (not “a man”) in it is irrational.

If there are 3–4 men in an elevator, the chances of 2–3 of them beating one making unwanted advances to a pulp are great. When you take the leap from being alone with a “man” you don’t have a history with to being alone with “men” you don’t have a history with, you’ve slipped into treatable illness, as long as you’re in an environment that is otherwise comfortable to you.

Treatable illness. Good Lord. None of us are walking around paranoid all day. The regret of putting yourself in a situation you where you get harmed when your instincts told you not to go into the situation is something we try to avoid. Women are in many ways taught to ignore their gut feeling and we have to fight against it and listen to our own minds and guts. We get burned several times not listening to ourselves and then we finally decide—screw it.

“None of us are walking around paranoid all day.” Who is “us” @JLeslie?

People constantly wary and afraid of men when you’re out in public?

@ibstubro Wasn’t @Dutchess_III the one who was going to have two strangers from another country stay on her property?

@jca you’re saying that most women have been assaulted? I understand that it does happen but I don’t think almost all women or even a majority have.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: I’m not saying raped. I’m saying some kind of unwanted sexual contact, including touching, yes.

Unwanted physical contact that is sexual in nature is assault.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: Yes, I know. I’m clarifying what I was talking about so there’s no misunderstanding about what I mean.

So the majority of women in the world have experienced this?

@ARE_you_kidding_me: Yes. I’m willing to bet if you took a survey, and provided some kind of anonymity, the majority of women would say yes, at some time in their life, they experienced unwanted sexual advance from someone (whether a stranger or someone known to them or their family).

It would be a good Fluther question, but I think many people might be hesitant to tell their story, since, like I said, many of us know each other in other ways.

@ARE_you_kidding_me – Every woman I know has.

I wonder if this whole “disagreement” is rooted in an understanding of what women actually experience.

@ARE_you_kidding_me – If you were to grant that most (or even just many) women have experienced some level of sexual assault, threat, or rape, would it make more sense for women to be more cautious?

Of course it does, nobody is even arguing that. I doubt that the majority of women have had actual assault. I don’t doubt at all that most have had unwanted attention at some point. What the issue is here I’ll restate. The question itself is indirectly hateful in what appears to be an attempt to illicit guilt in men. I do not see the point other than this or some kind of pity. I’m sorry that women go through this.Someone in my own family has. It’s not misunderstood but I do think that individuals who have had this experience tend to blow it out of proportion and tend to lash out. It’s a minority of men who behave this way. Realize we don’t tolerate it either.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: I’m talking actual assault (as I said, touching is technically included). I“m not talking about “attention” as in wolf whistles or unwanted comments.

I’m not saying every woman has been raped. I think I clarified my description above. @hominid agrees. I’m sorry you don’t believe me. If I suggested you ask women you know, you’re not likely to get an honest answer as they may not want to tell or recall for you.

As far as the question itself, I have not read the majority of the responses, and as I said earlier, I am not afraid of men in public, in elevators, etc.

@jca if that is really the case then the real problem is the environment that exists where women do not report this behavior. It would be more constructive to single out women and reassure them it’s ok to do so so we can tag, prosecute and shame the minority of men who behave this way.Don’t put the guilt trip on us guys by asking questions like “men can you even imagine…” No we can’t what else is new. What answer were you expecting?

@ARE_you_kidding_me: “What the issue is here I’ll restate. The question itself is indirectly hateful in what appears to be an attempt to illicit guilt in men. I do not see the point other than this or some kind of pity.”

Well, you have stated this many times, but it’s quite a leap. And honestly, it makes very little sense to say it once – never mind repeating it.

The response to the question answered it. The answer is “no”. They not only can’t imagine what it would be like, they reject that the female experience is different than the male experience.

You have not demonstrated the path from the question to the “attempt to illicit guit in men” claim. If you feel guilt or don’t feel guilt, that seems extremely tangential to the topic.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: “I doubt that the majority of women have had actual assault.”

So, you doubt that a majority have, and you are likely suspect of any need for women to act differently (take different precautions, for example). It would seem that it’s not the question that you are objecting to. It’s the claim embedded in the question. To claim that it’s making you feel guilty or something is not relevant. Just ignore that part. You have a different understanding of what women go through. You have a different understanding of women’s experience.

I’d like to assume that if you believed that women were under greater threat than men of physical and/or sexual assault that you wouldn’t be taking issue with the original question. It wouldn’t trigger any defenses.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: I don’t understand the last part of your last comment: “No we can’t what else is new. What answer were you expecting?”

Read the original question for this thread.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: Ok gotcha. “can you men even imagine that?” I take it that your answer is no, you cannot imagine it. I wonder if that’s why you are doubting what I am telling you and is backed up by @hominid.

@hominid you would have to know my history. The idea doing anything like that is repulsive to me. Someone close to me has had that experience and is now bitter to most men and she does not even realize she does it. Constant guilt trips…I simply cannot help but see that here in the original post. Perhaps if you separate “assholes” from “men” it would not seem so backhanded. It’s a question we cannot possibly answer, so that only leaves other motivations for even asking.

@ARE_you_kidding_me – Ok. But remember – nobody benefits from someone feeling guilty. Women do not benefit from some kind of “male guilt” any more than African Americans do from “white guilt”. What provides the best opportunity for progress and understanding is awareness, and I think that is likely the OP’s original intent here. Understanding what half the population goes through is a pretty good place to be.

I just want to mention that despite my personal experience (see above), I do ride elevators with men. I also meet with my boss alone in his office with the door closed. These are things that I believe I need to be able to do to function “normally”.

Because of my personal experience, though, I am on alert when in an elevator (with anyone, but it is more pronounced with men) and when in an office or a room alone with a man.

My boss, and any other person with whom I may be in a confined space, need not be offended. I do not believe that he (or most other people) would ever harm me. My anxiety is provoked nonetheless.

That seems like a normal, common sense approach, @Cupcake.

@hominid but they still do it even if the only benefit is some kind of sick satisfaction. “White guilt” is something else that sets me off.. that’s another thread.

@ARE_you_kidding_me – It sound like you consider yourself to be under attack in some way (feelings of victimization). Is it just this one person you know? If they are taking things out on you, wouldn’t the appropriate response be to remove yourself from the situation? Why be around someone who is attacking you?

It is so odd. The answer to the question “Can you even IMAGINE it?” is “No,” you can’t. Then a couple of people are trying to say, “Since we can’t imagine it, it must not be a real problem.” It IS a real problem, whether you choose to believe it or not.

Nope, we know damn well it’s a problem. Why did you post this question?

To see if men can begin to understand the problem. Some have. Some are rejecting it, or blaming the women.

Poll time: How many men now understand something they didn’t before?

Not buying it. Don’t think that I’m mad at you though. I don’t think you realized how some guys would take this or what your actual motivations may have been. I don’t know you but I can sense you have been through some shit. This far in I do think you may have learned some things also.

Well, I’ve learned that, even after being educated, some men still really do not care about it, and think we have it coming to us. But…I guess I already knew that.

@Dutchess_III: “Well, I’ve learned that, even after being educated, some men still really do not care about it, and think we have it coming to us.”

Wait a minute. Where did you get that? From this thread? I don’t think we saw any of that here. Am I wrong?

Or perhaps not.

Oh, Hippy Central kept bringing up the way woman were dressed, all sexy, low necklines, tight clothes. It must have been on a different thread tho. Fact, I don’t show that he was even ON this thread…?

Never have I felt threatened. That’s actually amusing to think about.

I have many times been A threat to others though. In one way or another, they always ask for it.

Are you male or female, @Mastema?

So until you know the man, your going to think we are all potential raper , muggers and leave you for the vultures type thing??
I still think common sense and caution are all that is needed,rather than lump us into two neat piles, known males =no threat. unknown males = big threat.

Should we as males lump women the same way?
Known female = friendly. unknown female = gold digging, conniving, take you for everything, back stabbing , leave you for the vultures type thing?

I agree with SQEEKY2. I thought women today were empowered and took self-defense and had CCW permits. I don’t get the scared thing, sounds horrible and tiring.

Yes, @SQUEEKY2. It much safer than assuming all unknown men are no threat at all.

In your female comparison, though, it would take time for you to know that and when you figured it out you could get out. In women’s cases, they can get hurt the first time they meet a guy.

@KNOWITALL I’ve had too many bad experiences to not be wary.

Four male students from North Carolina State University have invented a nail varnish that detects common date rape drugs by changing colour.

Would these young men have created this nail varnish if very few women experienced unwanted sexual advances?

Have you taken self defense courses, @KNOWITALL? And if you have, do you really think you’d stand a chance against a man much bigger and stronger than you?
(What is a CCW permit?)

Totally relevant

Based on where your totally relevant link came from you probably don’care to know what a ccw is but you may want to Think about it considering on your level of discomfort around strangers. At least get a can of mace.

Can’t some one just answer the question, “What is ccw” with being snarky?

Well, my money would be on @KNOWITALL.

Carry Concealed Weapon permit

Hell no I wouldn’t carry a gun.

It’s not tiring. I didn’t word the question very well. I was always wary, but only scared in particular situations, which I tried to avoid.

I conceal carry but I still cross the street when I see a black or latino man or call the cops if one enters my gated community which is mostly white and asian. There are exceptions like service repair men. If I see them on the back of the bus, I move to the front.

It is tiring at tines and statistics are accurate but if you’re the one who falls into the percentage of people who experiences repetitive abuse, then it doesn’t matter what the stats say. Caution or precaution will follow. This goes for any gender in any situation.

A gun is a great deterrent. Just letting someone see it in your jacket is enough to calm the situation.

It could also be taken from you and used on you. Have you ever have bad experiences with black and Latino men? Why are you so wary of them?

I guess you didn’t read his first answer I can relate with women without imagining. I’m a white guy and I feel the same wariness and fear but only of black and latino men. Almost every bad experience I had in life and a lot of the bad experiences that happened to those that I know were caused by these men.

This is why I said personal experiences are meaningless to statistics unless it is all accounted for.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Don’t feel guilty, just listen for God’s sake. Listen, try to have some understanding, and if you ever have daughters, give them a little advice on how to avoid being harmed.

Didn’t you see or hear about circumstances where girls were taken advantage of or harassed when you were in your teens and early 20’s? That counts. A lot of men might just dismiss that as being nothing.

I agree with you that some women internalize what might be a relatively minor assault and blow it out of proportion and overgeneralize about men being all horrible, but that is a minority. The OP isn’t doing that. She isn’t saying every man she comes across is bad or should feel bad for being a man, she is only saying she takes precautions.

Thanks @eno. No, I didn’t see his first answer. So, @sensin it sounds like you do understand. You don’t think ALL Blacks and Latinos are bad, but you don’t want to take the chance of having to find out which ones are.

@Dutchess_III

Real life isn’t a martial arts movie. Most offenders, even when they were interviewed, preferred a weak, helpless victim. It had a lot to do with a sense of power, control while reducing the risk of the situation. Someone with a gun is not worth the risk of assaulting. They’re easily startled at the sign of risk.

Yes, I do.

@JLeslie Oh I don’t feel guilty because I’m the last person who should. Just the though of something like that happening to someone makes sick to my stomach. I just don’t appreciate the guilt prod…. ( I can see it a mile away) I have not said that being careful is not necessary because I think it is. I’m not sure where you’re getting this from? If I have daughters they’ll understand and I’ll teach them what to look for and how to be safe. I will also make sure they always have a can of mace and know all about firearms if they wish to. That said my sons would also because all young adults and children are at risk.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Who are you to decide what was in @Dutchess_III‘s mind when she wrote the question? Do you read minds? You are coming from a perspectivebthat someone you know has been somewhat ruined by her bad experience and she overgeneralizes to think all or maybe most men are actually capable of doing bad things. Because of this you seem predisposed to thinking all women are like her, or assuming all women think men should feel bad about the criminal animal inside of themselves. No one here is saying all men are bad or criminals or should feel group guilt.

Analyze why you are triggered by a woman talking about being being wary and gaving been assaulted, instead of projecting onto them what is in your mind about the statement.

@JLeslie I’m not doing this shit with you. You simply refuse to get it.

To be redundant…

@ARE_you_kidding_me: “I just don’t appreciate the guilt prod….I can see it a mile away”

Why do you feel that @ARE_you_kidding_me is being prodded into feeling guilt. Nobody has said that you should feel guilty. I don’t see anyone claiming that @ARE_you_kidding_me should feel guilty. So, why do you keep repeating this? How is this in any way about you?

@Dutchess_III

Why do you want men to try and imagine it?

Why shouldn’t they?

Have you ever sat down and made an honest list of ALL the good things human males have ever done for you? You are heavily focused on a subject which is just way outweighed by good. My gosh! I have had unpleasant experiences with men, but I live now, and I love that the world is just full of good, decent men. I used to live in the city, and coming home from work involved taking the train at an awful hour, and a lonely, unguarded elevator to the parking lot. Mostly it was fine. One dark morning, just as the elevator doors were closing, a hand shot in between them, and pulled them open. Two young men stood there, covered in tatoos, and wearing colors.They stepped in. I ignored them. As the doors opened, the bald one said, “Gimmee a smoke.” I said, “Gimmee died”, and walked away. I made it safely home just as with all other days I took that elevator. It might have gone differently, if I had behaved differently.
I really believe you need to see someone about your fears, where they come from, and what you can do to feel better. The way you feel on these issues is not normal, not healthy. I see you creating a difficult environment all around you for men, all men. It shows right here where your questions imply mean things before anyone answers, and then pinning back the ears of anyone who disagrees with you. You come across as being onre of two ways; hoping to be attacked, so you don’t let the subject drop until someone gets fed up and does, or you don’t get how your own behavior leaves you vulnerable to attack. You do really need some professional help to get it all sorted out.
If you don’t, you might just drive yourself nuts with the constant fear issues choking you.

@Dutchess_III

I don’t know why they should or shouldn’t. I’m asking you why you want men to try and imagine it?

Because some men out there really think we like it. They think we’re asking for it. They think they are giving us compliments. So if you’re ever hanging out with some guys who do that sit you can enlighten them.

@Here2_4 I’ve had good, decent men in my life. And some not so decent. :( As I said, I don’t get any shit anymore, like I did when I was younger, so it’s not something I’m afraid of any more. I still take the same old precautions, though.

That doesn’t make any sense. Sexual commentaries are a form of sexual violence. You refuse to call or report the crime to police but you want good men to do the battles for you? I don’t get it. Good men don’t hang out with sex offenders.

@sensin Good men don’t hang out with sex offenders.
Sometimes the ”good men” are seen as sex offenders, but are not really, depending on whose society one is in.

I’m not going to call the police because some guy in a bar pinched my butt, or yelled out that I have a nice set of tits, @sensin. Besides, that was already covered here in a question that jca asked.

No where did I suggest I wanted any man to do battle on my behalf.

Wow this question seems to be going viral on Fluther.
I can see why some men got offended by this question, and I can see that wasn’t your intention, I still believe common sense and a bit of caution is all that is needed , and don’t put your self in a position that could get you in trouble.
Example, we were traveling a couple of weeks ago getting late and needed a hotel,pulled up to this one and Mrs Squeeky got a really bad feeling and didn’t want to stay there, so we left and went to another, than found out that the one Mrs squeeky didn’t like had a murder about six months ago.SEE I trust Mrs Squeekys sense of caution.

“I still believe common sense and a bit of caution is all that is needed , and don’t put your self in a position that could get you in trouble.” I absolutely agree, but it’s not a 100% guarantee that you’ll be safe. It would mean never going to a bar or to a party, which is where that kind of stuff is most likely to happen, although I’ve been cat called in grocery stores and shopping malls and while walking across college campus. This one guy in one of my college classes seriously creeped me out, to the point where I called the instructor and told him I couldn’t make the last day, and why. He absolutely understood.
I’ve just been driving in my car and had guys turn their car around and follow me. That’s really scary. Of course, I didn’t drive home. I’d drive to a QT or something and call the police.

@Dutchess_III No where did I suggest I wanted any man to do battle on my behalf

Yes you did. Your entire intention for this question was So if you’re ever hanging out with some guys who do that sit you can enlighten them.

You don’t want cops involved when someone pinches your butt because you want the guy next to the butt-pincher to enlighten him. You do want some guy to do the battles for you, just not an authority figure.

This is why it doesn’t make any sense. Why do you want the average guy to do battles for you instead of the cops? Unfortunately for you, most men are not batman.

I wouldn’t call the cops for a guy pinching me on the butt in a bar because nobody there wants to see the cops come strolling in! We didn’t like cops crashing our parties, either. Plus there are a lot more important things that they may be dealing with.
As I said, the two times it happened I dealt with it myself. I didn’t go whining to anyone to do something about it.

@Dutchess_III

This is why guys are annoyed by your question. You whine to every man here on fluther do something about it in real life, to enlighten the offender when they see it, but you don’t actually think it is important enough to call the cops and to disturb the party and you took care of the matter yourself. You’re contradicting yourself.

You claim it is a big deal here and want something done about it, but based on your real life actions, it isn’t and you can handle it yourself.

When you do actually want something done about it, you don’t want the cops, you want an average man to confront an offender. Makes no sense because as mentioned before most men are not batman.

Now at 147 points how the hell would you know a single thing about me and who I annoy? Unless you’re a member who is trolling at the moment.

A “big deal” is relevant. Being pinched is not the same as being raped. And every single woman on this thread agrees with me that they wish it wouldn’t happen.

I’m reading the responses and piecing it together. Just because you feel a negative emotion to my analysis doesn’t mean it is trolling in nature.

@hominid and @Adirondackwannabe are two men who are able to understand my point. So does @SQUEEKY2. All of the women completely understand what I’m trying to say. It’s only you and a couple of other men who are putting your same spin on it.

There have been about 5 or 6 questions that spun out of a question that Carly asked. This is just one of them.

Seems pretty divided to me. Some women here think you need psychiatric help, others don’t agree or cannot begin to imagine it.

Everyone understands your point, they just don’t agree with it or think it is absurd.

Besides, this isn’t a majority wins type of thing. It isn’t a popularity contest.

You’re referring to @KNOWITALL . I guess she hasn’t had the experiences most women have had, or it didn’t bother her, and she hasn’t been raped like two of our female jellies on this thread have been. But for crying out loud, once it’s explained, how hard is it to understand why it’s so wrong? It’s embarrassing and demeaning.

Just go type in “Sexual Harassment” in Fluther’s search box. See what comes up.

@Dutchess_III

Knowitall is one of them. Here2_4 is another. There are more if you had read through all the responses. Some have wives and friends who never experienced it either. This isn’t a popularity contest. If you actually want an accurate number, you have to have large sample sizes, statistics.

No one is denying sexual violence is wrong.

@Here2_4 was exaggerating. She, and a few others, pounced on my unfortunate choice of using the word “afraid” to decide that I need counseling. I’ll say it again, I was always wary, but only afraid in certain circumstances, which I tried to avoid. Sometimes, though, it is impossible to avoid.

Plus that’s all behind me now, although I take the same precautions out of habit.

Some numbers:

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/egypt-99-women-have-been-sexually-harassed-180951726/?no-ist (sad)

And it’s not just violence that’s wrong. It’s making lewd gestures or comments, even if you never put your hands on her. I wouldn’t consider that violent, just disgusting and rude.

I like that quote in the second link, “Not ALL men harass women. But ALL women have, at some point, been harassed by men. Food for thought. ”

@jonsblond

Rape abuse and incest national network

You can’t quote from sites like that. It has to be non-partisan. You have to look at their sources which appears to be the U.S. Department of Justice. I believe it was @eno who covered that argument. According to him, the numbers only apply to a very specific group of women.

Like tinyfaery typed, stats are a probability. Stats do not mean anything to those people who fit the percentage of people who get abused which is the case with you and those who were raped. It makes perfect sense for you to take precaution, but it doesn’t apply to those in the percentage who are not experiencing abuse. That is why not every woman agrees with you.

I never said every woman agrees with me. (btw- i did look at the sources. WHO is one.)

Did you read my very first response way up top, @sensin?

I read it. I never meant to say it in that light. I was just pointing out the reason why not all the women on fluther are in full agreement.

@Dutchess_III I absolutely agree, but it’s not a 100% guarantee that you’ll be safe. It would mean never going to a bar or to a party, which is where that kind of stuff is most likely to happen, although I’ve been cat called in grocery stores and shopping malls and while walking across college campus.
That is life, there are no “slam dunks”, unless you count taxes and death. You can go to parties just go to parties of people or groups you know well. If you don’t want to be catcalled at a bar, have your drinks at lesbian bars, unless meeting men is part of the evening, if not, lesbian bar. Even if you were wearing ”mom jeans”, and a sweater buttoned all the way up, you can still get catcalled; maybe not as often as if you were wearing a cropped leather jacket, a mini stretch dress and heeled boots, but you still can.

I don’t recall getting cat called at a bar, not that I heard. It was always really loud in there. Couldn’t hear someone unless they were right next to you. Bars were more the groping venue due to the crush.

I was responding to @Squeeky’s comment ”“I still believe common sense and a bit of caution is all that is needed , and don’t put your self in a position that could get you in trouble.” ”

It isn’t “all” that’s needed. I went on to describe having sexually suggestive shit yelled at me when I’m walking across campus, taking a walk down the street, what ever.

And there you go again, suggesting that some women deserve to get groped and yelled at and raped because of the way they were dressed. Another example of men yelling “DRESS SEXY!” and if they do they get “SLUT!!”
I’ll have you know I never wore a cropped leather jacket, a mini stretch dress and heeled boots. I never dressed like that. I was quite conservative because I got more attention than I wanted whatever I wore. I had no desire to make it worse than it was.

Relevant: http://news.yahoo.com/woman-blamed-prison-rape-case-163031775.html
This proves there’s a section of the population that thinks this is OK. This explains in part the social web in which we live.

God. Yeah. She was just asking to be choked unconscious and raped for 27 minutes.

I expect they had it all on video, otherwise they wouldn’t have known the exact number of minutes.

Exactly.

^^^^ I can’t see how they are blaming the clerk for being raped. But let’s be real, in some cases the woman sets up situations that make her being a victim more likely. Even though it cannot be said she is at fault, because the attacker ultimately has free will, she can make it easier for the attacker to fall to his/her cravings. To try to say otherwise would be to say the guy who crawls into the lion’s den at the zoo for a close up thinking it is safe because the lions were just fed, played no part in the lions slapping him around and biting the s*** out of him.

It was her fault for showing up at work thinking she’d be safe while on the clock.

@snowberry It was her fault for showing up at work thinking she’d be safe while on the clock.
Perhaps she made several unrealistic assumptions:
A. That the panic button she wore would keep her safe.
B. That somehow having guards all about would make her safer from the bad guys all around her.
C. That there is no way the office would not have traffic in it for nearly 30 minutes if something did happen.
She should show up to work, that is what she signed up for, but she should never forget where she is, and why many are there.

@Hypocrisy_Central And there was likely NOTHING she could do about it if she wanted to keep her job. So she was set up.

^ She had a supervisor, she could say she doesn’t want inmates in the office while she is alone or won’t be in the office alone with any inmates, if they balked at that, I am sure she could have gone to her union, if they had any cajones.

I agree that some women don’t show the restraint they should, but no one ASKS to be violently raped.

And, in many cases, there was nothing at all about the woman that was suggestive. Just the fact that she was a female, and smaller than him, is all it took.

@Dutchess_III Just the fact that she was a female, and smaller than him, is all it took.
Unfortunately enough, that is why females need to exercise more situational awareness then most men.

You have two cases:

A. Brenda hops into a car with three other guys, one she knows from class, to go get high and drunk at an abandoned grain elevator. No one will be anywhere around. If she could use her phone in an emergency there is no guarantee there is a signal to get. If she had to flee, there is nowhere to flee too.
B. Brenda, Sheila, and Liz are going out to get high and drunk at an abandoned grain elevator with four guys, one of whom Brenda knows. One of the girls have her own car, the second vehicle belongs to one of the guys. If need be, the girls can leave on their own in the vehicle one of them owns. If need be the girls can aid or cockblock for another. They don’t have to worry about running off to nowhere. If it get that serious, one of the girls can take the car they came in and go get help. With no overwhelming number the guys are least likely to try something because they know they will have to battle in near even numbers and not have a 3:1 or 4:1 advantage.

Which situation is safer for the gals over the next, even if by little (which beats none)? Minimizing the negatives in any given situation is something everyone should be doing, but as this society has shown, more in need of by women.

Well, you’re talking high school stuff.

I was recently reminded of something that happened to me in first grade. I wore a shirt to school that had stitching that made it look like I was wearing the shirt inside out. All of the students were outside for recess and I was playing by myself out in a grassy area away from the building. A small group of young boys came up to me and started harassing me. They kept telling me that my shirt was inside out and I had to take it off and turn it around. There were four or five boys about my age. I tried to walk away from them but they followed me. I ended up way out at the end of the play area against a fence and I was cornered by the boys. They kept teasing and one of the boys began pulling on my shirt. I was then literally saved by the bell. They all ran to get in line while I was left crying.

I was extremely shy and quiet and I can’t remember what I did about the situation. I’m sure I told a teacher, but I can’t remember what (if anything) was done about the situation. I was only 6.

I guess I should have taken precautions in grade school and not worn a shirt that would have attracted those young boys. Or maybe I should not have been alone in the grassy area. Things could have been so different for me if only I had…~

Oh, I had something very similar, @jonsblond. I really feel your pain.
It happened on the playground, right at the same age, maybe a year older. I had on this shirt that zipped up the front. There was a ring that you used to zip it up and down.
Some boys cornered me and quick as a wink completely unzipped my shirt. I’ll never forget the horror….struggling to get it zipped back up, trying to hide myself at the same time, sobbing hysterically.

I don’t think I told anyone.

With a shirt that zipped up the front, I was definitely asking for it. My mom should have known that.

Boys constantly trying to look up your dress. This was in the days before girls wore pants. I didn’t wear my first pair of pants to school until 6th grade, in 1968. Mom made me some really groovy green bell bottoms for me.

Just watched Big Daddy with Adam Sandler. Not a Adam Sandler fan, but Rick is.
One scene a woman is on the witness stand:
Lawyer “Where did you work while you were in Medical School?”
slight pause..“Hooters.”
“No further questions.”

Even Jenny McCarthy, who I detest for spreading the anti-vaccine BS, gets hit with the fact that she posed for Playboy magazine as a way to further “discredit” her.

INSANE how men demand It, cry for It, beg for It, whine for It, then insult, and are disgusted with, the women who provide It. How are our attitudes any different than the Middle Eastern attitudes which demand a woman be completely covered lest they tempt the man?

Well, we’re all asking for it, anyway.

Sigh, palm to face….

Oh, yeah, I remember being teased by some boys when I was little because my underwear had flowers on them. They had caught a glimpse up my skirt. We learn young that boys will be focused on your underthings. At that age for me it was more about not wanting to get teased than feeling like it was sexual. For the boys who knows. Why are the looking up my skirt? To make fun of me? Or, because they want to see my girly parts? I really don’t know what boys are thinking at certain ages. I’m sure it varies from boy to boy. What I know is they think it’s funny and it doesn’t feel funny.

@sensin Most of the woman here who think the OP’s reaction to unwanted sexual attention both minor and major is over the top still admit to having been scared, harrased, or raped in the past. The shit happens more often that people want to think.

Yet, we have a store locally named “Cougar Country”, so named because it caters to sexy older women that are trying to prey on younger males, and that’s hilariously tongue in cheek.

Maybe they could have “Boi Tois”, aimed at the male mentors that prey on young boys. That would be so clever.

Pretty sure the “Cougar” thing is a fantasy dreamed up by men who have this idea that an “experienced” woman would be better in bed than a young, inexperienced woman.

@JLeslie Also heard “Boys are smarter than girls,” a LOT.

@Dutchess_III INSANE how men demand It, cry for It, beg for It, whine for It, then insult, and are disgusted with, the women who provide It.
Maybe some places. Back in the day when I was in high school you had the girl you’d bring home to mom, and those girls you were with because you know you could ride them hard and put them away wet. The girl you’d bring home would not give it up after the 3rd date or the 1st night back by the dumpsters, in a spare bedroom upstairs, or in the restroom at the rave; you had to put in at least 6 months good work as a bf before even getting to 2nd base. Those other girls were just toss ups you used to get your jollies off. Today, there are way too many of them and they take every female down.

@JLeslie For the boys who knows. Why are the looking up my skirt? To make fun of me? Or, because they want to see my girly parts?
From my memory it was mainly because we were told we shouldn’t. So if the opportunity presented itself, we took it. Seeing what girls looked like ”down there” was also a fascination because we were told not to, and we did not have the Internet, we could not just pull up Fisting, naked women by the boatloads, and have full blown boinking we could pull up in video clips as kids can do today. If there was any teasing it was a byproduct as if to say “I know your secret and you don’t know mine”.

Something else to dismiss out-of-hand.

Women Against Domestic Violence

My mother and father abused each other as far back as I remember.

^^ @ibstubro Same here. The nicest thing I could say about it was that they deserved each other.

According to the CDC, one in seven men age 18+ in the U.S. has been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in his lifetime. One in 10 men has experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner. In 2013, 13% of documented contacts to the Hotline identified themselves as male victims. Although they make up a smaller percentage of callers to the Hotline, there are likely many more men who do not report or seek help for their abuse, for a variety of reasons.

Looks like there could be any number of males here that “get it”.

You were told you shouldn’t look up a girl’s dress so that’s why you did it. I agree, there was nothing sexual about it, but it was embarrassing to have happen.

Relevant. This goes back to the idea that taking reasonable precautions is all you need. Does this mean women should not go into real estate? Was she just asking for it?

@Hypocrisy_Central Your double standards are breath takingly shameful.

Back in the day when I was in high school you had the girl you’d bring home to mom, and those girls you were with because you know you could ride them hard and put them away wet. The girl you’d bring home would not give it up after the 3rd date or the 1st night back by the dumpsters, in a spare bedroom upstairs, or in the restroom at the rave; you had to put in at least 6 months good work as a bf before even getting to 2nd base. Those other girls were just toss ups you used to get your jollies off. Today, there are way too many of them and they take every female down.

You say this as if the easy girls are disgusting….but the guys who use them aren’t. They are both the same exact kind of person.

It’s guys like you who I would be ashamed to take home to meet my folks.

Give it up, @Dutchess_III. We all know that it’s only dirty girls and smart boys that are having any fun. ~

Done.

Man, I loved The Last Picture Show. We’ve known that it is so much more complicated for decades.

@ibstubro I enjoyed that one also.

Somewhere, it seared into me, @ARE_you_kidding_me.

@Dutchess_III Your double standards are breath takingly shameful.
I know people hate to have to confront the truth, but many boys thought that back in high school. To some extent it carried over later in life, but that is life. If everyone respected everyone else to the hilt, or at least as they would themselves, we would not need cops, lawyers and a lot of things. One could say that of women who get naked on Websites and in magazines and the guys who buy them to keep the circle closed and the wheels spinning. Bothers me not if anyone would not want to take me home; I may not even have wanted to go home with them in the 1st place. My thoughts on it now, you would have something to say about as well, but it is certainly standardize one way.

Apparently many men carry those immature ideas into adulthood, too.

“My thoughts on it now, you would have something to say about as well, but it is certainly standardize one way.”

That is very profane, @Hypocrisy_Central. Deep.~

Can you up the anty here, @Dutchess_III?

Wow. This was just posted on fb.

The two women teachers were arrested for having “group sex” with one of their students. Doesn’t say whether the student was male or female, but the teachers got busted because the kid was bragging about it. Pretty sure that would be a guy thing.

Some of those young boys who are molested by women grow up to be pretty f’ed up too.

So this is what a Viral question looks like.

@Dutchess_III what do you expect those of us that would never harm a women in our lives to do?

Just keep doing what you’re doing, and maybe say something to a guy who is behaving badly.

@ARE_you_kidding_me Sure. But I’ve never heard of a girl bragging about having sex with her male teacher.

@Dutchess_III I’ve known girls who have bragged about their conquests. (Of which included teachers or professors.)

I haven’t. I mean, what’s to brag about? Pretty much every woman in the world can walk in to a bar and get “lucky,” in the first 5 minutes. Or less.

To state the obvious, just because you don’t personally do it (or know of someone who does it) doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Also, there’s a difference between walking into a bar looking to get laid and attaining the seemingly unattainable.

Arguably, I’d guess that these girls have some self-esteem issues. But what I’m saying is that girls are not above this kind of behavior.

Well, since you have experienced it, it must be true. Just seems ridiculous to me. Like bragging that you drank a glass of water today.

Some women don’t realize almost any woman can get laid and it really isn’t anything that remarkable. If it is with an especially handsome man or powerful man they feel special for having been chosen.

@Dutchess_III I gave you some lurve for omitting a tilde. ;)

If the women are getting laid, where are the men?

Sex crazed meets sex crazed.

Don’t most of us meet in the middle?

@ibstubro About 5% of the guys are bedding around 60% of the girls.

That’s just it @ibstubro. The women are getting laid if they want to. They don’t approach sex the same way as men. They spend a good deal of their time fending off advances. I, for one, never left a bar or a party with a man I just met, but not for lack of men asking.

Two weeks ago I scheduled with Cox to send a guy out to install cable. They came today. My husband wasn’t home. He is out of town actually, but the guy didn’t know that. It was just me and Zoey, my 1 year old grand daughter. And Dakota, my gentle German Shepherd. (And Dutchess, my spaniel, but she’d be worthless in a fight.)

I’ve had Cox in the past so we had to find all the prior cabling. Part of this required him following me up the stairs to the guest room, where I had cable wired in the past.

Him following me up the stairs made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Actually walking into the guest bedroom, where there was a bed, put me on full alert. I had to just remind myself that Dakota was just a call away. There was nothing overtly threatening about the guy. It was just a life long habit of caution and bad experience.

VERY uncomfortable and a little scary. But not so much as when I was younger.

I love Dakota. She was just chill the whole time, but she kept herself between the cable guy and the bedroom where Zoey was sleeping. :) She never took her eyes off of him, except when we went upstairs (she has bad hips now.) She wasn’t staring at him. She was laying on her side, “dozing” but fully aware of him and his presence. It was really nice to have her in the house. If I hadn’t, I would probably have given him directions to the upstairs bed room and stayed behind, close to Zoey, cell phone in my pocket.

@Dutchess_III I can understand the caution, but isn’t being that on guard all the time overly exhausting?

Well, I don’t have to be on guard all the time any more. Not like I used to when I was younger. Only in specific situations like that one. And I normally don’t have strange men in my house when my husband isn’t home.
But sure. It got old. It’s just a reaction my mind and body have though. It’s just a part of who I am now. I do it sub consciously.

@SQUEEKY2 It’s not fun, if that’s what you mean. It becomes part of your lifestyle, but no, you don’t get used to it.

Exactly, @snowberry. No fun.

It’s like, if a person is a cop (or a doctor or a brick layer) you learn certain behaviors. Even when you’re off duty you’ll see things that others may miss. It’s totally from habit so it’s not that exhausting, any more than driving a car is.

And this

Some men are truly pigs, but don’t lump us all in the same basket.
That is like saying all women are just gold diggers out for whatever they can screw out of a guy, want to be put in that basket?
Might find it insulting and offensive?

We don’t @SQUEEKY2. But if we don’t know you, we will proceed with caution.

I know many good and decent men who would never do anything like that. I just posted this gal’s experience to give another example of the kind of shit woman can come up against anywhere, anyplace.

Wow. I had forgotten about this. A friend and I had a brief discussion about sexual harassment on FB. It started when someone posted that video of women harassing men, and some guy posted that he would like it.
I responded with “It gets old, fast.”
Then my friend commented that in HS when she bent over to pick up books off the bottom of her locker, some guys would take that as in invitation to pinch her butt.

That caused me to realize that long, long ago, probably when I was 14 or so, I quit bending over when ever possible. If I had to pick something up off the floor I would squat….and you know what? I do it to this day, even though I’m no longer a target.

That is sad.

It’s not sad, it’s healthy.
You’re always better off lifting with your legs than your back.
Better health through harassment.

Bullshit @ibstubro. Yes, if you’re lifting something heavy it’s better to lift with your legs. If you’re picking a piece of paper off the floor why bother? Oh, yeah. Because some guy, like you, will read it as an invitation. It’s bullshit.

Fuck. My 11 year old grand daughter has become increasingly uncomfortable around an adult male member of her father’s side of the family. She said he’s always staring at her and coming up with excuses to hug her or touch her. She went to live with her mother.

Boys will be boys, aye?

We had a guy call on the 63 Volkswagen we have for sale. Rick called him back. At one point I heard him say, “Well, I’m out of town a lot, but if I’m not here my wife can show you the car.”
After he hung up I told him that I didn’t particularly like people, especially men, and especially strangers, knowing there are times when I’m home alone.

See….that concern didn’t even occur to him.

^ “See….that concern didn’t even occur to him.”

Well, to be fair – it wouldn’t have occurred to me, either.

That concern definitely occurred to me.

It would not be if everyone was on board with the 2nd Amendment. If I was ever to be the one to think I would go over to some person’s house knowing the lady of the house was there alone, knowing she more than likely is packing would give me serious pause to go over there thinking I will have my way with her for a couple of hours.

Even people who own guns don’t have their gun on them all the time while going about their daily chores at home.

Plus, how would I clue him in that I have a gun? Isn’t this car neat and I have a gun.

^ If 80+ people were known to have them like they do microwaves, anyone would have to assume there was one or more there. Then it comes down to if he felt lucky….if he guess wrong, and come sowing trouble down that block, <bang> ambulance cot, he found out you had more bullets then he’s got.

Around here most people have them but only carry in certain situations. Selling things on Craigslist or hiking alone is where I feel the need to carry. Generally I’m unarmed but I at least have pepper spray handy at my desk, in my car or strapped to my mountain bike. I have had to use it once on a mean ass dog.

PPepper spray works on dogs? <-_ /
<- \

I wonder, how many men carry pepper spray or mace around with them?

I have always took a fanny magnet with me, built in.

@Dutchess_III I do, it’s legal everywhere and I don’t run the risk of losing my permit just because I walk into a “gun free zone”

@Hypocrisy_Central Pepper spray works on all mammals.