Why the extreme Apple hate?

Because both Fluther and the world can’t stand it when people make different choices or have different sets of preferences than they do.

I know my question is the linked one without even clicking on the link.

In my case, I didn’t say I hated Apple. I neither have a problem with people making different choices or having different sets of preferences than I do, @SavoirFaire. My question was solely to inquire as to why the camping out for days to get a phone, when the user’s other phone may not be more than a few months old. My question was curiosity to find out if each update is really that much different or improved over the last one. I don’t hate Apple as I don’t have one and really know very little about them.

@jca I don’t think his question was saying that you hate Apple products but the tone of several of the responses to your question and in other questions is extremely snotty in its anit-Appleness.

Nowhere in my Q or details did I intimate that you had any feelings about Apple whatsoever, @jca. I am expressing the same curiosity based on vehement responses to your Q.

It’s always baffled me, too. When I started buying computers I went with DOS and then Windows devices, because Apple was more expensive. BUt I didn’t know then that the laptop I bought my wife in 1998 was a piece of shit that was little more than a boat anchor in less than a year, or that the PC I bought in 2000 with Windows ME was a convoluted mess. I have been pretty much all-Apples for 12 years now, and while it might be more expensive upfront, it lasts way longer and is more reliable and well supported.

Apple fans are a bit smug at times, because they like something that works well and is designed well.

I think @zenvelo has pretty much made the case. Anyone dazed and confused about computers and the minefields of traps and sorcery is prone to regard Apple products as merciful salvation. And the loyalty of the Apple entourage is beyond fierce. In my own family the devotion of the Mac people borders on fanatic, while the pc folks look on the Applelites as deluded cultists, slaves to to an overbearing, overpriced elitist cabal.

Then why not the same hysterical unsupported advocacy or vilification of, for example, automobile brands? My father and mother were loyal Ford owners, I have always preferred Hondas, my friend wouldn’t own anything other than a Volkswagen. I have heard people staunchly defend their car brands because they were American made/better on mileage/low maintenance, whatever. I don’t hear people say that car brand loyalists have been “brainwashed” or the subjects of “mass hypnosis”.

The Apple haters sound like spurned lovers.

Fluther has a lot of haters, on many topics. It would be embarrassing if it weren’t so funny.

I don’t think there is extreme “hate” I’m typing this on a macbook. Where the dislike comes from is greatly centered on tech types who can see what apple marketing is doing and how overpriced the stuff really is. Yet people still flock to buy the stuff and keep a chip on their shoulder while doing so. It’s one of the greatest marketing successes of all time: split people into camps and instigate flame wars. Apple more or less started it with the “I’m a mac and you’re a PC” commercials. Brilliant, but insidious at the same time.

The hardware and software is great, impeccable really. It does lack features but is easier for non nerds to use….and grotesquely over-priced. It’s also more proprietary but that’s both an advantage and a dis-advantage. This mac will be my last unless the price is reduced greatly. It’s a good machine, great actually but I could have saved a good bit of cash going to something else. Again the real hate is with the price point….and the fact that hipsters with out too much actual tech knowledge seem to gravitate to them because it’s the cool thing to do. Yet…it’s cool to hate apple now too.

@canidmajor Oh there is a lot of car loyalty, just ask a mustang fanatic. But I will never buy another GM, Ford, or Chrysler product: poorly designed, poorly crafted.

This past week I took a work laptop on a business trip. It’s running Windows 7. What a piece of crap that system is. Nothing is easily found, nowhere to find how to increase the display contrast. It’s not so much that Apple is so much better, as anything Microsoft is so horrible. Windows design makes the Defense Department specs look elegant.

I don’t actually hate Apple, I just object to paying an extra £400 for the badge and a fancy case.

@zenvelo Microsoft is not “horrible” I’m running Win 7 on my macbook. I dread having to boot into OSX. I can’t say I’m a microsoft fan either though. I still feel burned from 95, Me and especially Vista. Win 98SE, XP and Win 7 have been really good, stable workhorses after all the bugs got worked out. It does not pay to early adopt with microsoft. Their largest problem was early on they let anyone and everyone write their own drivers and run the os on any hardware. Just getting the shit to work at all in that environment is a monumental accomplishment. The cross compatibility is unmatched. If things are hard to find on Windows it’s because you are used to OSX where I have a hard time finding things because I’m used to windows and linux. Each OS has it’s advantages. As much as I would like deep in my soul for linux to be my goto OS I’m in Windows 80% of the time. I rarely use OSX..not for me.

@canid, I don’t see it as extreme Apple hate. For me, this is pretty normal.

I go back to my answer on the earlier question—Android opens doors to playing and experimenting, while Apple treats me like a child.

I outgrew a nanny 50 years ago.

@elbanditoroso Agreed, Android is open-source, free to develop on and the SDK is java based. IOS costs a few hundred dollars to develop on, not open source and is objective C based. No thank you apple. Android will be running the whole world in a decade.

I think some of you are still missing the point. I’m not talking about brand dislike, or brand loyalty. I’m talking about people using terms like “mass hypnosis” and “brainwashed” instead of specific arguments related to features, price, versatility, etc. I have seen it here, on social media, on the internet in General, and even had a person recently call me a “stupid sheep” for choosing an iPad because I like the Apple platform. This stuff goes way beyond brand dislike.

@canidmajor That’s more of a personal problem with folks. They get their identity wrapped up in “things.” They make themselves feel superior because they are insecure and can point out flaws in others because of their specific brand or camp. Good indicator that there is not much going on upstairs.

Haha, @elbanditoroso, Apple doesn’t “treat you” like anything. Anthropomorphizing the brand is just a bit silly. Personally, playing with my phone and tweaking stuff and experimenting just isn’t something I care about, so I buy a different product. These devices meet my needs, they don’t meet yours. It really is that simple. Svengali, Mesmer, et al weren’t involved in my decisions.

@canidmajor – certainly yours is an Apple fanboy answer.

You mean because I don’t like what you like? I don’t actually dislike what you like, though. And I don’t drive a stick anymore because I am in bad traffic more often than I used to be. And I use my speed dial sometimes on my land line because I am just too darned lazy to push all the buttons. And I feed my dogs pre-made food because I don’t want to cook for them everyday.
Damn. You must be right. All the signs are there.

Does this mean I have to get rid of my PC, too?

I’ll answer this the best I can from my perspective, which is likely dripping in my own prejudices and preferences. We all have them.

First, my consumer patterns:

- I bought a first-gen iPod Touch the week it was released. I purchased an iPad 2 on the day it was released. I owned an iPhone 4 for 8 months.
– I have owned a Droid (original), Droid 3, Galaxy Note 2, and Moto X.
– I am deeply invested in the Googleverse. I don’t run native software (Office, etc) on a PC.
– I am a pc user (for development purposes only) and a Chrome user (for everything else).
– I just purchased my daughter her first phone due and it was a Moto X. She took a social status hit at school for this, but we’ve been in close communication about it, and she seems ok.

When I got the iPod Touch, there was nothing better. It was amazing. It had replaced the absurd Pocket PC devices (and my brief Nokia 810 experiment) that I had been using for years to browse the web, get email, and read ebooks.

But my first smartphone was an Android phone for 2 reasons. 1) Like I said, I’m deeply invested in Google products and 2) Verizon was my the only carrier that offers service in my area, and they didn’t offer the iPhone at that point. When I bought the original Droid, there were some things that I liked over my iOS experience that I had with the iPod Touch, but overall, I felt a bit envious that I was unable to explore having an iPhone. The iPhone was close in functionality, had much better performance, and had a significant advantage in available apps. But by the time I was able to give iOS another run (Verizon started offering the iPhone), Android’s app selection had almost caught up, and the functionality was quickly surpassing iOS. It still wasn’t as “slick” and smooth as an iPhone, but I am a busy person, and functionality is the most important thing for me. I stuck with the iPhone for 8 months, and suffered greatly because it just didn’t work for me. I’m not saying that the device didn’t work. Rather, it just didn’t do the things I had come to expect from my smartphone. I was suffering in my productivity at work – and in managing my busy life as a parent. I started to really resent the device and iOS.

Much of that resentment was based in a philosophical difference between Android and iOS (Apple). If you don’t like the way things are in Android, you can change them. In iOS, Apple has decided that locking it down and choosing the exact experience for every user makes for a more uniform and solid product. Android’s customization means that the user decides how they should best interact with their phone.

Many things that were either automated or could be accomplished in a click or two, took many actions in iOS. As a busy person, I found that I was forced to spend more time interacting with a phone rather than having the phone work for me. Lack of “intents” (the ability for any app to communicate with other apps), the inability to automate without jailbreaking, etc seemed odd. But I was assured that the choices Apple had made regarding closing down the functionality were strategic – if they could limit the choice of action and functionality, they could keep a device “intuitive” for nearly everyone. But I was not one of these people.

iOS has slowly been catching up, and it seems that some of the functionality of intents has even made it into iOS 8 (I am told). There may be a time that I find an iOS device compelling again, and I may want to switch. But for now, the product appears to be a device designed without any of my needs in mind. I’m not a gamer. I am not a multimedia producer. Want full automation and deep Google integration.

So, do I hate Apple? No. I want Apple to force Google to continue to improve their services and Android. Competition in this area is critical. But is Apple for me? No. Not at all. The things that I require from my phone are just not possible in iOS.

Now, I do take issue with people who claim at iOS is technically a better OS and the iPhone is a better designed device than any available Android phone. I know that this statement is actually incorrect from a functional standpoint, but also from a personal fit. If I need a screwdriver, don’t hand me a hammer and tell me how much better and well-designed the hammer is. I don’t need it. It won’t accomplish what I need.

To summarize, iOS doesn’t do what I need it to do, and most of this is due to Apple’s philosophical approach to their products.

Edit: I’ll be starting development on iOS app this sprint, so I will be back working with iOS more. Maybe I’ll like what I see.

@SavoirFaire: “Because both Fluther and the world can’t stand it when people make different choices or have different sets of preferences than they do.”

If the question were, “Why do some people have a problem with the statements of Apple users?”, this statement would be the first to be discussed.

Envy of Apple’s success.

/Thread.

Hmmm
Interesting
indeed
uh huh

They’re gouging us.

@jca My comment has nothing to do with your question (which I have not looked at).

@hominid I have no idea what your last response means.

@SavoirFaire: ”@hominid I have no idea what your last response means.”

Neither do I. Whatever I was about to say there probably would have been amazing. :) Ignore it for now.

@ARE_you_kidding_me: not sure why you posted those links.

@hominid, I think your detailed post helped to point out why “Apple hate” is so silly. An articulate post about your preferences just indicates ..preferences. Unless I missed it, there was no reference to mass hypnosis or brainwashing.

And the last time I checked, nobody held a gun to my head when I chose to buy an Apple product. There are still vestiges of a free-market economy in the tech device world. Don’t want it? Don’t buy it.

All I can think is that the need for external validation is so very strong in some that they go a little nuts when someone makes a different choice.

Gotta wonder about the reaction if I discussed pasta…there are so many kinds!!!

@canidmajor It does seem a little brainwashed or obsessed to camp outside of an Apple store for a week to buy their new product when it won’t be a limited product, doesn’t it? It isn’t a limited addition numbered piece. Why does it matter if you buy it the day it hits the market? You would have to be obsessed to care about such a thing I think.

The real test I guess would be to see what would happen if Apple made a few products that sucked and still people stayed brand loyal. I saw it in Michigan. The American cars had tons more problems, but the people in that state stayed loyal partly because they all knew or were related to someone who worked in the American car industry, and also the peer pressure to buy American cars was really heavy.

The fierce loyalty to Apple keeps their prices high, which pisses me off, and I don’t like that they purposely try to make the user use all Apple accessories and products, but of course it is smart as well from a brand loyalty and capitalistic point of view. It really annoyed me when they only gave AT&T the exclusive right to be a cell carrier. I don’t like when companies limit competition like that.

But, @JLeslie, the people who camp out for Apple products are probably the same ones who camp out for anything. I don’t think they are “brainwashed” by Apple, they are part of the social mindset that wants to do that.
And again, my point was not about brand loyalty, whether understandable or not, but about, specifically, the type of anti-Apple fanaticism that I don’t see matched for other brands. Lots of people don’t like it for various reasons, fine, don’t buy it. If you think it’s overpriced, fine get something less expensive. If you resent that they have built an entire product line that requires support items that can only be used for that line, fine, go with products with different specs. But really, do you actually hate any brand (that has available and convenient competition) so very much that you vilify the people who use that brand?

@canidmajor: “I think your detailed post helped to point out why “Apple hate” is so silly. An articulate post about your preferences just indicates ..preferences. Unless I missed it, there was no reference to mass hypnosis or brainwashing.”

I acknowledge that my rambling response is self-indulgent and boring. But I urge you to re-read what I wrote.

But you might want to also re-skim the “I don’t get anti-Apple” comments again in both of these questions for examples of why many people find Apple consumers so insufferable. I am not necessarily making that argument above, but I can tell you that we’ve seen a ton of it here.

“Brainwashing” and “mass-hysteria” are not useful terms here – not because they are entirely inaccurate, but rather they apply to some degree to all consumer consumption in a capitalistic, market-driven economy. Apple might be the best case of having created a self-identity (“I’m a mac, I’m a pc”, “Think different”, etc), but they are far from the only ones. Most people buy products not because they have spent considerable time weighing or even knowing about the various technical details. They are buying an identity. If only I bought product x, I would be as carefree and cool as the that person in the commercial. If I buy that other product, I get to be x. This is hardly controversial. Marketing and advertising industry certainly believes it. They are so invested in this concept that they invest hundreds of billions per year.

But to claim that all Apple users are “brainwashed” is wrong. We all succumb to buying into a lifestyle in quest for happiness and peace. So you’re not going to find that I am making this argument. My long-winded preference explanation post is relevant, however, because it is an attempt to explain how someone can have a complex and changing relationship with technology, and how this doesn’t necessarily have to be irrational. I can have deep philosophical differences with a company’s approach to their software that can cause “resentment” or “hate”, if that isn’t too strong a word (it seems to be used quite liberally here, so I’m using it in that sense). But I want Apple to continue to succeed. They are being pushed to change, and it works the other way around too. Competition is a good thing here.

@canidmajor: “And the last time I checked, nobody held a gun to my head when I chose to buy an Apple product. There are still vestiges of a free-market economy in the tech device world. Don’t want it? Don’t buy it.”

True. This is very true. But if you re-read my long comment, you’ll be unlikely to find any claims that I was forced to buy it. What you’ll find is an historical account of me jumping back and forth between technologies because they both had things that I liked. And at the point where iOS’ limitations became too costly, I shed it completely. You’re not going to find me buying the iPhone 6 and getting upset that I have.

Note: I am a somewhat unusual case in that I can’t completely remove iOS from my life. I’m a developer, so I have to develop web apps that can run in mobile Safari and Chrome for iOS, as well as the various screen sizes and resolution. I’m also starting a project that will involve writing a native iOS app.

@canidmajor: “All I can think is that the need for external validation is so very strong in some that they go a little nuts when someone makes a different choice.”

I’m not sure entirely what this means, but I posted a link in the other Apple thread that talks a bit about how we emotionally process our past choices, etc. We’re likely in agreement here.

To summarize, I am not sure if you are claiming that I am one of those “All Apple consumers are brainwashed” people, or if you are simply saying that my nuanced dislike of Apple’s approach is irrelevant because it doesn’t explain the extreme vitriol that is expressed in many Apple discussions. I could explain all day what upsets me about many Apple users. We’ve seen a ton of it here and in the other thread. But I’m not sure that this is what you are looking for, right?

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear, @hominid, my point was that your post was the opposite of fanatic Apple hate, and I only directed that one paragraph to you, not the others that followed.

@canidmajor: “my point was that your post was the opposite of fanatic Apple hate”

Is it though, or is it just a more lengthy (and boring) explanation? Many people (including people here) are quite convinced that my position on Apple/iOS is irrational. I think the spectrum of Apple love/hate here and elsewhere is expressed superficially, but we’d likely find some interesting stories behind them.

As a final note: I recommend Apple products and iOS to many people who come to me as the “tech guy” looking for advice. Two of my family members recently bought iPads, and I have convinced another to buy an iPhone based on their needs. But if any of them walks up to me and blathers on about how their products are superior because they are “designed well”, well then we’d have a healthy discussion.

OK, let my try to clarify even more. There is a difference between saying “I hate this brand because (insert reasoned argument, here)” and “People who use any part of this brand at all are brainwashed, hypnotized, stupid sheep.” with no qualifiers beyond that.

@canidmajor I said what you said on another Q, some of it comes down to some people are willing to camp out for Apple product launches, concerts, Harry Potter Books, Black Friday deals and on and on, and some people would never do it, and some people fall in the middle and will do it for one or two choice things, but not for most.

My “hate” is of the mega machine in America that takes capitalism too far, that supports monopolies (even though they talk about competition being the best thing) collusion, and gouging. The consumer that encourages it or thinks it is a great thing annoys me too. The Apple consumers with their devotion and willingness to throw away their old expensive phone in a millisecond for a new, or will pay any price, encourage big business to do whatever they want and harm consumers and society. I consider myself a capitalist, but I like some balance in the system.

Apple is a company that I believe gouges and takes advantage of its customer. So does Delta airlines in my opinion. I have some Apple products and I used to fly Delta quite a bit, because I lived in a hub airport. I once almost wrote the government about Delta and their gouging ways, but I didn’t, they took incredible advantage of people flying to cities torn up by Katrina. $750 round trip fares for 45 minute flights. Aside from Katrina their fares almost everywhere were much more than they should be, unless they had direct competition. People who felt flying Delta was the cats meow, well, I like flying Delta too, I like their larger glasses, Coke products, reasonably clean planes, I don’t have much to complain about the flight, but I hated their prices. People who live in their hub cities often have no idea how high the fares are compared to other airlines for comparable routes.

I just feel like saying, “Gawd, at least know you are being overcharged, don’t be blind about it.”

Owning an Apple phone for most people is the same type of bad spending as buying a house you can’t afford. The price is spread over the monthly phone bill. The consumer can’t afford the $700 price tag, but they feel they can afford the $60 per month. What if you had to buy the phone outright and the phone service separately? Do you think iPhone would sell as much as it does at the price it asks? The people don’t even care what the item costs, they just want to know if they think they can afford the mortgage.

@JLeslie: you are still missing my point, and I can’t find the energy to explain it all again.
Hate the company. Fine. I absolutely support your right to do so. You are not one of people I saw use the words “brainwashed”, so this isn’t really about you, is it?

Or is it?

@hominid “But you might want to also re-skim the ‘I don’t get anti-Apple’ comments again in both of these questions for examples of why many people find Apple consumers so insufferable.”

I don’t think it’s Apple consumers who are insufferable, but rather super-fans. And one can be a super-fan of anything. Look at the PC master race people among gamers or the Xbox One vs. PS4 battle (which was preceded by the Xbox 360 vs. PS3 battle, which was preceded by various other console wars). Look at Marvel vs. DC. Batman vs. Superman. Star Trek vs. Star Wars. Projection vs. flat screen. The Simpsons vs. Family Guy vs. South Park. Bulbasaur vs. Charmander vs. Squirtle.

My wife is an Apple consumer, but she’s not a super-fan. I use a variety of products to keep myself from being too attached to or too beholden to any single company. But I don’t have to be an Apple fanboy to recognize how bizarre some of the reactions are to merely mentioning that you use Apple products. Yes, there are people who dislike other companies. But the Apple hate is different in character. And I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s precisely that difference in character that leads to the pro-Apple sentiments you dislike. It’s an ouroboros of criticism and hate.

@SavoirFaire: “I don’t think it’s Apple consumers who are insufferable, but rather super-fans.”

I agree. I should be more clear.

@SavoirFaire: “But I don’t have to be an Apple fanboy to recognize how bizarre some of the reactions are to merely mentioning that you use Apple products.”

I can see that. But keep in mind that for some of us, the vast majority of negative experiences are in the other direction. And it likely depends on the industry. I’m a software engineer, and that fact can often mean that people see me as someone to discuss technology with or ask tech questions. But their lack of associated knowledge in this area is never balanced with even the slightest humility concerning their strong Apple opinions and the opinions of those who do not use Apple products.

@SavoirFaire: “But the Apple hate is different in character. And I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s precisely that difference in character that leads to the pro-Apple sentiments you dislike.”

This appears to be taking a chicken-egg direction, and I can bet that we will likely fall on opposite ends here.

@hominid It’s not chicken and egg. It’s ouroboros (precisely as I said in the sentence after the one you quoted). The two sentiments feed into one another, polarizing the two camps and making each more extreme. Thus it will color your interactions with people who are asking you about technology. You say they lack humility. Perhaps they just really like certain features that their preferred products offer and aren’t willing to give them up for things you think they should value more. Perhaps they like that certain products work well for them despite a lack of technical knowledge (since we can’t all be experts on everything).

And ultimately, the proper response to ignorance isn’t disdain unless the ignorance is willful. We are all constantly bombarded with information, and we don’t all have the expertise on every issue to sort out what is and isn’t true. Unless and until someone proves themselves to be immune to explanations and insincere in their questioning, judging them for their ignorance seems counterproductive. Perhaps you should ask yourself how you are delivering information to them and whether that causes them to get their backs up (which, of course, limits how much they’ll take in). Arguing, after all, is a much different enterprise than instructing.

@SavoirFaire – My poor vocabulary failed me (ouroboros). Sorry for the confusion.

I do agree with the sentiment in what you are saying (proper response to ignorance). But I think you may be too generous in your assumptions of how many (not all) Apple users communicate their “preferences”. @SecondHandStoke‘s assertion that this is not a matter of preference or function vs need is not an usual position to come across. That’s not to say that I am walking around using ridicule as a teaching method. I’m not. Really. But it’s challenging to be met what seems to be an endless number of people who sound like an iPhone commercial, yet have never owned an Android device or even understand the philosophical and functional differences between the devices.

I know people (besides the people I have recommended iPhones to) who are huge iPhone fans. They are completely legit. They understand the philosophy, the pros/cons of both environments, and have determined what will work for them. We can even give each other sh*t in a joking way. But these are not the people that make up the vast majority of my interaction with Apple users superfans.

Just to be clear – I think we’re largely in agreement, but likely have different experiences with people that may be based on career, etc.

First world problems really

@janbb I have not laughed out loud on Fluther yet. That’s a first I think.

@Candidmajor I posted those links to outline my biggest gripe with Apple and other tech companies Their profit margin is over the line of what I would consider to be playing fair. (And I consider myself to be a capitalist) Compared to many of the companies considered evil and greedy apple looks like the anti-christ when it comes to their bottom line. It’s gouging. Samsung is over the line also to be fair. We’re all really suckers for letting devices be part of our persona. At least Android is open source, something I have a deep philosophical agreement with. I can’t get over the silliness of this though. I feel like I’m in some kind of alternate universe. When it comes to phones it’s not the consumer who looses so much, the carriers. They subsidize the additional cost of the iphones compared to the Android phones. It hurts their bottom line. BooHoo. Verizon is still hitting a 15% profit margin. I don’t feel bad for them being forced into carrying the iphone because Apples deal with AT&T was causing them to loose business. They were gouging us too. It was playing dirty though.

^ Because you disagree, and consider Apple essential?

@JLeslie: As a little aside from the Q itself let me ask you this: do you know that people think “Gawd, at least know you are being overcharged, don’t be blind about it.” about your choice to own Porches? Why do you assume that you know what motivates “most people” who have these products? I certainly don’t presume to know what motivates you to spend so much on cars that I consider a silly expense.
Just curious.

a mac is not a porsche.
a mac is a ford focus with only a body kit to make it look like a porsche, but with a porsche price tag

Yup. Hell hath no fury. ;-)

Closer to a honda accord with a corvette body kit

@canidmajor Absolutely, the Porsche is the same thing. I mean, there is a difference in driving a Porsche compared to some lesser expensive choices, the Porsche drives differently, but for sure Porsche owners are overcharged. Most luxury brands whether it be cars, clothing, watches, appliances are made better with better parts, but the retail price definitely includes paying for the name also. I mostly drive my Honda Accord, previous to that I had a VW. I do however very much enjoy driving our convertible Porsche. We have 5 vehicles, which I think is ridiculous, but it is my husband’s gig, not really my thing. One of the cars is for racing, and one of the cars has gone up in value, so maybe they don’t count the same way as a typical car that depreciates. Our money is tied in them similar to tying money in an investment.

I did use brainwashed and obsessed in regards to Apple, but I don’t think everyone who buys Apple is brainwashed and/or obsessed, but some people are. My husband is obsessed with his Porsches. Obsessed. It costs me more money than I want to spend on cars that’s for sure.

Thing is at least I know I am getting a little ripped off. I also didn’t buy a Porsche until I could afford it. We bought Honda Civics, Mazda Miatas, and Nissan Maxima for the most part and saved. People buying on credit for things just increases the prices on every day items in my opinion. Porsche isn’t an every day item. However, we could also argue people with money keep that car out of reach for the masses, because they will pay a luxury price. It seems to me young people with not very much money buy Apple computers when if I had the same money I never would.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe all Apple buyers can afford what they buy, all that they buy.

Years ago I read an article about how clothing has become like a religion in terms of people idenitfying with a group. One group wearing Ralph Lauren Polo, another in Calvin Klein, another in Armani. Brands that identify the people you probably have things in common with. Or, even lack of a brand and basically no concern with fashion is another group. The daughter of a friend of mine had a tough time when she transferred to a new school when she was in 2nd or 3rd grade. Several of the girls in the class had an expensive bookbag, I don’t remember the brand. One of the mom’s offered to by my friends daughter the bookbag so she could fit in. My girlfriend can afford it! If all those girld had Apple phones then if you want to fit in you better have an Apple I bet. Not all Apple owners are like that of course, I think far from it, but I think at least some feel like they need to have an Apple to fit in.

Steve Jobs did great marketing and advertising. He somewhat created a cult like following. Porsche does it. Once you are a Porsche owner every so often you get these beautiful books in the mail and amazing items that have historical information or engineering information about the 911. The quality of the advertising to build brand loyalty is incredible. It sucks my husband right in. You are part of a Special group. To add to it my husband does Porsche racing, like an exclusive club.

I do think a lot of companies use similar practices to Apple, so I would agree with you there, just some are “worse” than others.

I don’t really hate anyone for loving their Apple products, I like my iphone. I do dislike when people buy things they can’t really afford. I realize everyone spends their money their own way. Maybe one person wants to spend a lot on their Apple and wear free t-shirts and inexpensive jeans every day. I have no real problem with that fundamentally. I certainly don’t need to pay full price the first day it comes out. I can wait and hope for a better deal.

The conversation is too long for me to read through, but I just thought I’d chime in with my experience and observations.

I learned MS-DOS on an Apple ][e when Microsoft was a software company, and Apple was a hardware company. I was in my senior year in High School when my brother bought the first Macintosh – it was a game changer! Then IBM pushed back and it became a Mac vs. PC war. Back then, it was Bill Gates who was on tee shirts looking like a Borg from Star Trek with the saying “resistance is futile”. Back then, Mac was the open-source platform and the graphics performance machine. PCs were the machines of the masses in their cubicles.

Apple was the first with the touch-screen smartphone. Because of all the companies they had to enter contracts with and their limitations, and valid concerns about security in this dawning era of mobile data, they locked it up tightly. I bought one the day it was released because I was still using Macs at home, so I liked that it would easily integrate with what I already had, and I liked the all-in-one cell phone and PDA with a touch-screen interface. Up until then, I had held off getting a PDA or Blackberry because they didn’t really work the way I wanted it to, but the iPhone did.

The early-adopters were vilified for being “gotta-have-the-latest-gadget” braggarts, but that wasn’t the case. We found each other on Web-Apps like Fluther, and it was something we learned about and shared together. Not being able to customize it was a major complaint in those days, and the conversations about ‘jailbreaking’ were numerous. Google was clever and caught onto that, and made the Android platform to smartphones what the Macs were to personal computers, which I find humorously ironic. On the other hand, I find it disappointingly sad that the Fluther community has diminished to such a petty level as is being mentioned here. I have yet to see that post (it’s been a busy week for me).

Many of the friends I made through the iPhone, including my fiancé, have switched over to Android. Many of us are still using iPhones. Several have gone back-and-forth a few times and are still undecided. Amongst ourselves, there is no animosity, because we get it. We are all unique creatures and we choose the products we like for whatever reason. I am tech savvy, but I no longer have the energy or time to invest in tweaking and customizing, I want reliable, consistent performance, and I get that. My fiancé and most of the others I know are more tech involved and many work in the IT industry – for them, the open source is fun and useful. I even know some who have one of each for home and work.

The real question is why some people need to put down other people because of a particular product they use. Similarly, why do people generalize all people who have iPhones as camping out for days or even hours. Not ALL Apple users have camped out at ALL Apple launches – if ever. These are larger sociological questions about our consumer culture that I presume are explained as our version of tribalism, or some-such.

@hearkat Who is saying all?

@JLeslie – I wasn’t claiming that anyone here on Fluther said “all”, I was stating that there are “Apple-Haters” in the world (some of whom I’ve encountered on the interwebz) who refer to Apple users as “sheep” who camp out for the new products and will buy anything that Apple sells.

@hearkat I’m not even sure those people mean all, but maybe they do think all. When I say, “the religious right is against gay marriage” I don’t think everyone who identifies as religious and even with the republican right wing is against gay marriage. I think when they hear me say it though they think I mean all, when I don’t think all about any group I talk about. When someone says the Jewish vote votes for democrats, I don’t get offended or think that actually every Jew votes democrat (I know they don’t) and I know the people saying it know we don’t all vote democrat. I just never think all about any group, but you may be very right that the people saying those things really view all Apple users as sheep.

I know that, @JLeslie; but that is you, and I know that you are a critical thinker. But I have personally encountered people on the internet, through comments on a post or a common friend, who do make those gross assumptions about people they don’t know based solely on their mobile device. Of course, the snarky advertisements egg them on, too – which relates to your other question.

@hearkat I guess I don’t care what those people think. The ones who think all people who like Apple are idiots. The people who think that are the idiots.

@hominid I get the frustration, and I certainly don’t mean to imply that there aren’t a lot of Apple fanatics. I just don’t think it’s an Apple thing. I know Apple fanatics, PC fanatics, Google fanatics, Linux fanatics, et cetera—and the one thing that unites them is how keen they are to tell me why my choices are wrong.

I’ve been lectured on the superiority of PCs for gaming even though I don’t game. I’ve been lectured on why I should drop Facebook and use Google+ instead even though the only reason I’m on Facebook is to connect with people who don’t use Google+ and never will. I’ve been lectured on the benefits of Linux by people who have no idea what I need out of a computer and what I am capable of doing with one.

Elitism is everywhere, and my point here has not been to deny it. That said, there does seem to be a bizarrely disproportionate amount of scorn aimed at Apple fanatics, and it often spills over to Apple users as a whole. Indeed, I take it that this is, at least in part, what is behind @canidmajor‘s question.

I’ve heard Apple users gush in nonsensical ways when the conversation turned to electronics, but I’ve never had an Apple user come up to me out of nowhere and tell me why I should buy an iPod. I have, however, had a Linux fan come up to me, attempt to knock my computer out of my hands, and insist that he was only trying to do me a favor because Linux is the only operating system worth having.

In any case, I don’t think I’m being too generous in my assumptions about Apple users because I don’t think I’ve made any comments—and thus any assumptions—about what percentage of Apple users communicate in what ways. I’ve simply suggested that the attitude one has towards the products and their users will color our interpretations of their comments, and thus we need to ask ourselves how much of their attitude we are intuiting.

Is pro-Apple ignorance common? Sure. Ignorance of all kinds is common, so I don’t doubt it. And in your line of work—as you say—you are going to come across the very ignorant. You are also going to be better at recognizing that ignorance than I am since I don’t claim to be a computer or electronics expert of any kind. But my point is that anti-Apple sentiment is not just common, it also tends to be undiscriminating. And it frequently justifies itself on grounds that look suspiciously like “I wouldn’t have bought that, so you shouldn’t have done so.”

Sorry, this is a bit wandering.