Do you think that a person who spent most of their adult life racing cars and motorcycles, makes for a better public road driver?

The statistics clearly say no. Racers are not involved in fewer accidents.

I submit this is because unlike the track, public roads are not filled with other skilled drivers.

Also unlike the racecourse, novice motorists are not indicated with an informative sticker.

My husband raced most of his life. For the first couple of years I was always on him for tailgating. He also had this urge to speed up when people passed him. He also had this urge to “catch up” to people in front of him. One time he was behind another car. There was a car on our left. He closed the gap between us and the car in front so the car on the left couldn’t move over to the right if he needed to. He doesn’t even realize he’s doing it. But I make him realize it, so he’s gotten a lot better.

I would not draw any general conclusions from just one example.

I knew another guy who fancied himself a race car driver. Don’t know if he really was or not. Certainly not the caliber of Rick, but this guy had a habit of tailgating and speeding too.

It’s going to come down to a difference in comfort zones. His is much tighter than yours because he’s confident behind the wheel. That probably scares the crap out of you. I don’t think being a race car driver makes them bad or good drivers. It probably does not factor into it much. I do know first hand that riding motorcycles actually makes you a more alert and observant if not paranoid driver. It’s when you have people who think they are racers out on public streets that causes problems. There is a stretch of road where I live that is famous with motorcyclists. There are wrecks and fatalities all the time there because or “racers” who don’t understand that a state highway is not their personal racetrack.

Well, like I said above, in Rick’s case, he was driving like he would on a race track without even thinking about it. Speeding up when passed, tail gating, catching up to people who are ahead of him for no reason, closing gaps so cars can’t change lanes. It does scare the crap out of me. And when he doesn’t react to people braking in front of us, it scares the crap out of me.
If racing is your life’s blood, I think you’d have to consciously decide how to change your street driving so that it’s safe for you and everyone around you.

No, not necessarily. Competitive types tend, in my opinion and experience, to treat all driving as a competitive sport and that competitive attitude isn’t compatible with day-to-day commuter driving.

^^^ Exactly. They have to consciously turn that off. Or have a nagging wife sitting next to them.

Maybe, but whether someone has a history of racing or not, I do not tolerate much tailgating when I’m driving or riding in a car. I’ve known too many people whose lives have been destroyed because someone had an insane “need” to follow too closely behind another car.

If I’m going the speed limit and in the right lane and I’m STILL tailgated, I just take my foot off the gas and start coasting. Usually the idiot behind me gets mad and moves on.

Yep, @snowberry.

I don’t really think you can generalize race drivers simply because they race for a living. Some, certainly, probably treat public roads like the track. Some leave those urges on the track. I believe it was Kevin Harvick who’s said that off the track he drives like an old lady.

The thing is, if you live and breath racing, or anything else, you can’t help but apply it to other aspects of your life.

@Dutchess_III For some…not all, at best many. Some (most) can easily disconnect the racetrack from commuting. It could be that your husband is just an aggressive driver who also happens to have a history of racing. I don’t tailgate or tolerate it either. It never fails…whenever I try to leave a safe following distance some jackass takes advantage and pulls into that space. I do my best not to get all road raged but it does cause my blood pressure to spike a little.

Racers tend to be aggressive. Racers tend to do things (like drafting) that may not be a problem when surrounded by other racers, but may cause a non-racer to freak out and then accidents occur.

I have people think I drive too fast simply because I know how to apex a turn, so I don’t lose speed in the corners. this often causes me to zoom up on the rear bumpers of people unintentionally, then get pissed at them because they are too fucking stupid to use the gas pedal and the steering wheel at the same time, thus losing 5–10 MPH while my speed is constant.

About the only good thing about racer’s driving is that racers have above-average skid recovery skills, and are generally more aware of a car’s limitations…. though they tend to drive closer to those limits than normal people. My wife hates to skid even the least little bit, so she has to control her fear a lot when she is in my passengers seat during the winter. Like many people, she doesn’t get that loss of traction does not mean loss of control. Then again, the people who don’t get that generally think that stepping on the brakes will stop the car while racers are entirely aware that all the brakes do is stop the wheels from turning, and understand the role tires play in the whole deal

@jerv I’m not “fucking stupid”, but I know I have slower reflexes than most other people. I cannot afford to drive as fast as some folks might like, and sometimes there is a reason why I might be in the left lane, such as needing to move over to make a left turn or an exit. People who behave as you describe really are the problem, not me. I’m doing the very best I can. I have a perfect driving record, and it would be a shame to have it ruined because of a race car wanna be living his dream on public streets.

You can’t always know why someone is acting the way they are, and it’s counter productive to get angry at people who “don’t know how to drive”.

@snowberry If you are making a left turn on the interstate when there is no exit ramp on that side of the road, I doubt I’m the one with the issue. I prefer to only leave the highway when the road markings indicate it is safe to do so, as opposed to punching a hole in the guardrail. If you have other ideas about when it’s appropriate to turn left, that’s on you.

If you are taking a left in a place that actually has the option to do so, and have the presence of mind to use a turn signal, I won’t be behind you anyways. Problem solved!

If you cannot handle flow-of-traffic speeds, most jurisdictions have laws against obstruction of traffic; you’re more likely to get a ticket than me. But I also know how to be in the correct lane for my speed of travel with consideration for what turns I will be making. Lane discipline is just as important on the highway as it is on the side streets as it is on teh race track.

My husband is a mixture. He rarely speeds while driving, so he doesn’t take that frim the racetrack to the public roads. He does sometimes get too close to cars. Not to try and make them go faster, not that sort of tailgating, but he is comfortable at closer distances, because on the racetrack the cars are often extremely close together. I lecture him that he can’t rely on other drivers to do the right thing. On the racetrack the drivers are 100% focused on driving and are skilled drivers.

He also sometimes rounds corners a little faster than makes me comfortable, but he knows the limits of the cars better. He doesn’t do it when there is traffic where a nearby driver might get nervous or feel he is unpredictable or aggressive.

Overall, he is very obedient to traffic laws and does not treat public roads as a racetrack. He actually gets to go out on racetracks and get rid of the need to speed, do daring moves, and push the car to its limit. I do think he suffers from a little bit of overconfidence on the road. You have to have that to race I think.

My husband has great reaction time and knows how to control a car well. A lot of people on the road simply don’t.

@JLeslie That is pretty much me. I’m just tactlessly open about my low opinion of other drivers as America has pretty lax licensing standards compared to the rest of the world. In Western Europe and Japan, it takes more than $50 and a birth certificate to get a license; you actually have to learn things like skid recovery, lane discipline, etcetera!

@snowberry Yeah, tailgating is just completely unexceptable in my book. It’s so unsafe. I also slow down if someone is on my tail. If I am in the left lane of an interstate I will get over if I can, but in the right lane they need to stay the fuck back. I won’t purposely stay in the way of someone who wants to go fast in the left to try and torture them. I know you didn’t say you do that, I don’t think you do, but I know people who do. They want to get back at the driver and that is just as bad.

@jerv I think purposely skidding is irresponsible on the public roads, especially with other drivers around. Basically, being unpredictable is bad driving and many people on the roads cannot predict the moves of a more aggressive driver, even if he is very skilled.

@JLeslie You never drove in the winter? Everybody skids in the snow and ice; it’s just that many people think that’s the end of it, freak out, and lose control while those who know how to drive know how to direct the car along a desired path even without traction.

I wouldn’t have a perfect driving record if I were a vindictive driver or didn’t signal, especially in heavy traffic. And it really does freak me out when someone rushes up behind me like @jerv describes. My driving will not improve with those tactics. LOL

@jerv I went to school in Michigan! I grew up in a climate that has winter. I have never had an accident in the snow and ice and have driven through plenty of it. I don’t purposely skid, it sounds like you do. I drive to avoid skidding. I had the impression you were skidding around even during the summer.

@snowberry Exactly. This is why it is so dangerous for drivers to be tailgating and weaving in and out of traffic, the driver who is less skilled and more nervous on the road might “jump” and brake when they shouldn’t or swerve when unnecessary. I have seen it happen.

@snowberry Just obey the “Slower traffic keep right ” signs on I-5 that have the force of law, signal in accordance with state motor vehicle regulations, and we can share the road peacefully.

@JLeslie Heh! Sorry, no. Drifting on pavement requires more speed than I am comfortable with on public roads full of potholes, side-streets, and non-professional motorists.
As for those that tailgate and change lanes a lot causing the skittish to brake-dance and swerve, that is where my cynicism is an asset. Basically, I think of the dumbest reaction the guy in front of me could have to a skull-car in their rear view, and choose my following distance and trajectory based on a pessimistic assessment of their driving ability.

@jerv Ick. I hate sharing the road with people like you.

@snowberry Are you saying that you are the person doing 5-under in the left lane on the interstate, and proud of it? It may surprise you to know that I get passed more than I pass. I’m not an aggressive speed demon, I just hate those who obstruct the smooth, safe, orderly flow of traffic the way many people do.

@jerv Nope. I don’t do that. But you sure don’t sound like someone I’d like to share the road with.

@snowberry I think you’re just looking for a fight then. Why else would you have issues with someone who strives to go with the flow of traffic in a way that causes minimal disturbance to my fellow motorists, and who also maintains control of their vehicle in adverse weather conditions that make others spin out even if that means using a few tricks normally reserved for WRC and D1 competition, like “Scandinavian flicks”? Given a choice between going down an icy road controllably sideways, hitting oncoming motorists in a full 4-wheel lockup, or landing the car in a ditch, I’ll take the powerslide every time!
FYI, the braking distance of a 4th-gen Corolla sedan is long enough to preclude the possibility of tailgating, and with only about half the HP of modern cars and lacking such things as four-wheel disc brakes, airbags, and other such things that newer cars have, I actually have to be more careful than most drivers. I can’t afford to be reckless the way people in their overpowered, crash-cage-equipped modern cars can.

@jerv Often looking for the apex and doing things like drafting result in going out of your lane and driving too close to the car in front of you. If you seek those things you are not driving safely on the roads. However, you also said you assume other drivers are not good drivers, so I really am not sure how you drive on the road. I’m not sure I would think you are a good driver or a reckless one.

@JLeslie My car is narrow compared to the average lane on an interstate; a 64” wide car in a 12’ (144”) travel lane has a lot of wiggle room between the lines, so I can easily choose my trajectory without leaving my lane. And the conservation of momentum increases my MPG considerably as well. At $4/gallon, that extra 2–3 MPG adds up quickly when your daily commute is as long as mine.

And, as stated above, tailgating/drafting just isn’t a possibility. I actually do have a sense of self-preservation. It’s rare that I get within 5 car-lengths of the guy in front of me (I prefer closer to 10, actually) even under optimal conditions (dry pavement, clear visibility….), more in bad weather or at night.

@jerv “I have people think I drive too fast simply because I know how to apex a turn, so I don’t lose speed in the corners. this often causes me to zoom up on the rear bumpers of people unintentionally, then get pissed at them because they are too fucking stupid…”

Take it any way you like, but THIS ^^ is my problem with drivers who act like you describe. I’ve had people treat me like this and it’s boorish behavior regardless.

@snowberry Suppose you are cruising along at 60. All of a sudden the guy in front of you slows down considerably for no apparent reason and without the warning of brakelights. By the time you move your feet (my car has three pedals, and I use my gearshift to aid in deceleration), you’ve already lost a fair chunk of the nice gap that you used to have between you.

Do you like being forced to either slam on the brakes or swerve too suddenly to check if the other lanes are clear? Personally, I find that dangerous, and I don’t like being endangered. It pisses me off. Yet, even with the relatively long following distances I prefer, I find myself in this position all too often on the interstate.

Smooth flow of traffic means constant speed. Variations like that cause unsafe conditions that could be avoided. So, do you actually prefer avoidable danger over smooth traffic flow, or do you agree with me without even realizing it?

@jerv I would never slam on the brakes while in traffic like that, unless there was something in front of me that would indicate I needed to do so. The situation you describe sounds terrible, but if you are coming up from behind, you have no idea what is happening in front of the car that just stopped. There could even be a child in the road (it happens). You just can’t know.

As for when I’ve experienced this type of behavior, it was in city traffic, not a highway. I don’t have a clue why they were so mad.

I’d have a more lenient opinion if the highway patrol were as strict about such things as track officials are about blue flags and black flags.

LOL and my opinion of the highway patrol is about as low as it can get. I’ve had them tailgate me in a residential neighborhood where I was driving the speed limit, weave through traffic and speed, all without lights or sirens of course. They’re a mess. A lot of them have a real entitlement problem.

@snowberry The situation I describe is a common one on my daily commute. If there is a child in the middle of I-5, we have other issues. And I actually don’t get mad until after I get to where they were and find that there is not an accident around the corner, or a hunk of big-rig tire in the road. Or until about the 9th curve where the same thing happens yet traffic conditions (or the speed limit) don’t allow for me to pass.

In city driving, well, I’m actually one of the slower people in-town simply because I expect things like children or people pulling out of a driveway (or into my lane) without looking. But here in Seattle, it’s common for a traffic stop to result in a two-mile backup of rubberneckers while something like an actual accident will shut down the road for at least six miles (often at least 10). Seattle drivers brake for a leaf blowing across the road! I drive like a typical New Englander (though more sedately than anyone from Eastern MA; those people are crazy!), but most Seattlites drive considerably more self-entitledly.

Agreed @jerv

Why does the typical motorist slow down when the road gets interesting?

That decreasing radius off camber curve might be the last one you ever experience. You should drive it like such.

Regarding @jerv ‘s apex clipping:

One is only going to experience so many curves in one’s life. One should make the most of it.

It’s clear that a vast majority of motorists don’t understand that acceleration doesn’t just mean an increase in speed. It means any change in velocity or direction.

All those hapless Saturn drivers that don’t get that their car goes left and right as well as straight. Ugh.

Lateral acceleration, The force you experience while turning is just as gratifying as the torque that hopefully presses you into your seat upon standing on the throttle.

The lateral bolstering, those raised sections on either side of your thighs and back hopefully present in your seat are there for a reason. Combined with the seat belt these are supposed to secure your body in place while executing a turn with proper verve.

Like your turn signals, you paid for these bolsters. USE THEM.

Mr. Town Car, who nearly comes to a stop on a turn’s apex. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW HATED BY ME YOU ARE.

@SecondHandStoke About the apex. The apex can mean going out of your lane. The other drivers on the road are not as skilled as maybe you are, so you need to drive bowing down to their inabilities. If they slow down before a curve and you are behind them, you have to slow down also. The worst is when a driver brakes when already in the curve, it drives me crazy too, but they are bad drvers and I am not going to fix them or teach them anything that day. Maintaining constant speed in some turns is too difficult for a lot of drivers and even vehicles. When my husband is driving the Porsche the capabilities of the car are higher than when we drive our Ford truck. Yet, he likes that feeling of maintaining speed and also is impressed with his knowledge and abilities ai guess, but it scares the shit out of me, especially after my accident. One time pulling our trailer we actually lifted a little on one side on an on ramp and finally, finally, he is obedient to the speed yellow warning signs when driving the truck and trailer.

Also, I don’t know where you live, but if you live in Kansas, south Florida or Southern Michigan you might not have a lot of curves, but go to New England, North Carolina, TN, and many other states and you get plenty of curves, hills, and mountains.

I find the best way to not get frustrated is to maintain a reasonable distance behind the car in front of me and if their driving isn’t great it doesn’t cause me to have to hit my brake all the time.

Also, people who drive slowly are typically less aware of traffic around them. If you are speeding past traffic you know what cars you just past and their placement, while someone driving slowly is reliant on checking mirrors. The person driving quickly uses mirrors too, but it feels totally different. They are passing and then looking for clearance to move over. The awareness on the road is different for the average driver delending what speed they drive. So, the slow driver is less able to predict traffic not only because they might feel less confident on the road, but also because they actually have to work harder when changing lanes. They are not passing and changing lanes, they are merging with traffic that might be going faster than they typically drive.

@JLeslie Interstates are designed for normal vehicles to maintain the speed limit so long as weather and traffic permit. The radii and banking of curves are such that that’s possible. Lesser highways may lack that, but those generally have yellow advisory signs indicating a reduction in speed is prudent. On/off-ramps have similar signage for the same reason.
It’s telling that I never ran into issues in New England, aside from the expected snowbanks the road plows left at the end of my driveway. Then again, New Englanders can actually drive year-round and don’t consider a routine traffic stop worth 20mph rubber-necking for while Seattle is paralyzed by a dusting of snow (odd, considering that snow isn’t rare here like it is in Florida), will brake for hallucinations, yet merge without noticing the 27’ bright red box truck right next to them. Many cars here have the sort of body damage that would prevent them from passing a VT/NH/MA yearly inspection; missing headlights, caved-in doors, etcetera. Think about the implications of that.
As for speed, I take the average of what’s around me, and left to my own devices, only vary ±2mph. However, many come up behind me at 75–80, cut me off, then slow to 55 because Seattle is that passive-aggressive. Of course, if I change lanes to get back to the speed limit, they’re doing 70+ again until you’re boxed in,then slow down to keep you there.
If I sound hostile towards other motorists, it’s because I’m surrounded by assholes whose body panels prove a lack of basic driving skills. I just want a smooth drive to/from work; is that so wrong?

Yes. Following the proper racing line does mean leaving the lane in some situations on public roads.

If I wish to get distressingly close to that median cap in a large intersection then I haven’t left my lane. No problem.

I will take the most efficient line when blasting down a highway entrance ramp if 1. there is no debris on the shoulder and 2. there are no other cars near me.

I spent my school years on Florida’s west coast. Sarasota’s streets were a depressing flat grid. Any undulating or radiused section of road was cherished like a 150 year old Grand Marnier. As if that was not bad enough everyone was OLD. The solution to not reduce accidents but hopefully lessen their severity was to impose insanely low speed limits. I very often shifted from first to second, then gingerly into fifth. Lights were set up to relieve drivers from the burden of making decisions wherever possible.

I sometimes drive fast, sometimes very fast. This is done with a code: Always with plenty of room around me, especially to my front. I never pass cars at max speed. When I’m driving I am not engaging in any other activity. Listening to The Narcotic Suite by The Prodigy might be an exception. Detection avoidance is far to detailed to describe here. I use every opportunity to demonstrate courtesy to other drivers. Yes, if you do something really stupid you might get a look as I pass. On some sections of road driving fast just feels like a bad idea. On such stretches I just don’t.

Regarding our highways:

The US Interstate infrastructure is set up for a little over the speeds we travel. Even sign size is dictated by speed. Experiencing an expansion joint at 120 is quite different from feeling it at 60.
Many Interstate curves are cambered (banked) with speed in mind. Around the limit and depending on your car your car should follow the curve with your hands off the wheel. Steering adjustments can be made with the throttle.

@ARE_you_kidding_me, you said ”....whenever I try to leave a safe following distance some jackass takes advantage and pulls into that space.” I don’t know why that would upset you. That’s one of the reasons I create that space, so people can move in and out freely without stress. All I do when that happens is back off a little so that I have now created a new space in front of me. I kind of think of it all as a bubble that expands and contracts.

Because I no longer have a safe following distance and have to make one again. It’s annoying and in some way it seems like you are enabling that behavior if you leave them the space. I usually try to leave just enough space for most not to try.

So, in effect you prevent people on the on-ramp from merging in between you and the person ahead of you, and prevent people from moving to the right to exit? Why would you do that? I don’t understand why you’d call it a “behavior.” There is nothing wrong with it. People have reasons for doing what they do.

No no not at all. I leave space for that. You should know what i’m talking about. Those aggressive drivers that will weave through traffic as if it is a street race.

Some do do that. That’s why I leave a big old space for them! Not giving them room isn’t going to stop them, just make them even more dangerous.

I probably should let them in but I don’t. I see it as preventing a possible wreck by limiting their ability to pass aggressively. I do realize it probably just pisses them off and makes them more aggressive.

Aggressive drivers are the worst. A couple of weeks ago some guy pulled out in front of us in town. It happened that we were both going the same direction, which took us out of town on a two lane highway. Rick was going faster than him, so he passed him. The guy flipped us off then proceeded to immediately pass US….in a no passing zone. My reaction would have been to back waaaaaay off to avoid being in the middle of the head on that could be coming. Rick’s reaction, of course, was to punch it and get right up on him. I yelled at him.
Yeah. Two aggressive drivers is what gets people killed.

@jerv When I mentioned slowing before a curve, I was not thinking Interstate or similar. Absolutely, they are made for continuous driving at high speeds. In a few choice places the speed limits are low, or there is a series of curves with yellow speed signs, but it’s few and far between. Typically, I think brake lights on a highway are a menace. They cause traffic waves resulting in slower trafiic and more likelhood of accidents. If people keep safe distances and just lift off the gas a little to slow down when needed, traffic runs smoother.

I really am not thinking about snow and bad driving conditions in any of my answers. That’s a special case in my mind, even though obviously part of the country is in “bad driving weather” half the year.

@SecondHandStoke I think you should go to some autocrosses and Sebring, FL or wherever you live now, and get the need for speed out of your system and relax a little on the highways and byways.

@JLeslie

You clearly do not understand.

The “need for speed” does not leave one’s system.

Thank you for your contribution.

Also. I never stated I was in anything other than a relaxed state while driving.

If I was not relaxed that would indicate that I was doing something incorrectly or had chosen the wrong hardware.

Did you not read what I posted about quality automotive seating in my comment above?

I bet my net worth that the sort of drivers that are being complained about ITT are the ones that are not relaxed.

@SecondHandStoke i read it. I’m married to it.

Aplogies @JLeslie

My frustration is not aimed at you.

I’m sure you can guess where is focused.

@JLeslie I think about the driving conditions I’ve faced most my life. I grew up in New England, spent my last 8 years in NH on a dirt road that wasn’t maintained well that came out in the middle of a blind corner of a state highway in a 55-zone, and currently drive about 60 miles a day on the interstate.
For me, the normal driving through residential neighborhoods and other 25–30mph zones with kids running around is a special case. Most of my driving has been highways or roads that go between ski slope and mud bog depending on the season with fairly little of what most people consider “normal” driving.

@jerv I get it. Since the question asks about racing, and my husband does race, he sometimes uses his knowledge to go faster or more effeciently on the regular roads, and so that is where my mind went. Ice, snow, rain, mud, are a different situation all together. My husband never tries to skid in bad weather, and if it happens accidently, like hitting an unexpected ice patch, or a driver causing him to have to brake under less than ideal conditions he is not happy about it. That is not fun to him. He can handle it better than most drivers, but it doesn’t matter. He has much less experience than me in snowy conditions, so maybe that’s partly why he doesn’t talk about it like you do, but he has more experience than I do in having to control a car in a skid.

As I said, being unpredictable to other drivers is dangerous, and unpredicatability in ice and snow even worse. A driver who brakes because you lost a little control (or it appears to them you have) my brake herself right into a ditch or another car. I guess ABS and nonskid technology helps a little for those drivers who just don’t get that braking is not going to stop them while they skid across the ice.

One thing I am confident about is my husband’s ability to rip the car off the road at 70 mph, if forced to, and keep his cool in getting us stopped safely.

@SecondHandStoke and @jerv I think I can relate a bit. I have skied since I was 8 years old. I am an expert skier. I also ski extremely fast (love it), but I’ve never raced. If I’m on a hill with some beginner and intermediate skiers, it’s impossible to ski as fast as I’d like. That’s because there is no predicting when one of them will fall or suddenly go off in a direction that would put them directly in my path, and I might have to stop or slow down to avoid them. I only let it all out when I’m the only one on the hill.

When I first started skiing I had a few close calls where I showered them with snow to avoid them. That’s when I figured out I had to change my tactics or there’d be a massive accident, and I’d be at fault. Now as soon as another less experienced skier shows up on the slope I automatically slow down a bit.

My first (and only) time skiing was…a trip. My BIL, who is an expert skier, was supposed to guide me down. Well, we got to the top, he put on his ear buds to listen to music and just bonzied down the hill, taking small jumps and stuff. I tried to follow him. I was SO MAD!!!!! At the bottom I was careering wildly, heading straight for a rack of skies. Well, I was a natural athlete so my body just kicked in. I threw my self sideways and came to a screaming halt that way, showering the rack with snow. My BIL was watching. His mouth dropped open and he said, “Holy shit! If I didn’t know better I’d think you were a pro!”
Then he saw the look in my eye as I started toward him. He ran. Pretty funny scene seeing two people trying to run in skies! (Skis? Ski…what?)